Fuck! Florida..

[Hutzpa]

After the Dem party warning them from moving their primary date, they went ahead
and organize themselves into disobeying the rules of the party anyway, this comes
after they've allowed the Republicans to stick it into us twice. (2000 & 2004)

Now, they see the enthusiasm from other states, and NOW....wants to join the party, they
should have thought about their decision before making drastic moves. Why move the dates
for the primaries, are they bigger than the party? I certainly hope not, whomever is responsible
should in my opinion be replaced. Somebody had to initiate these ideas.


I'm pissed! :grr:

[Windy]

1. I just heard on the radio that the DNC has again stated that these votes

will not count...

[joshcryer]

71. They won't count toward the nomination, but once the nomination is decided, they will be seated...

...unless Obama is the nominee and it puts him back into contention by seating them, in which case he will chose not to seat the delegates.

[frogcycle]

111. damn, you mean florida could finally get its just desserts?

Maybe if they knew how to hold a fair election and play by the national party rules they would not consistently be marginalized and manipulated

you'd think they'd get tired of being told "oh, we'd count you if it didn't matter, but since it does, we'll just tell you to go fuck yourselves"

[sunonmars]

2. I don't get the hoopla

They should have just let them vote properly, i dont get this favouritism state shit.

[Hutzpa]

7. They wanted their date for the

primaries moved to

1 coincide with the republicans

2 show they have more power or unanswerable to anyone within the party

3 just plain obnoxious

[neutron]

70. or 4 have Troll Embeds

who are happy to get
FLA dems so pissed off they don't vote in
the national election.

Which is why punishing FLA is wrong.
We should be kissing their asses. We NEED
this state.

[Hutzpa]

74. Really, you got here 2min

and you're using the word troll, watchout now,

back to topic....

Question: What makes FLA so special from other states?

[DrDan]

92. bs - its just a power play by the DNC

[cyclezealot]

55. There is already favoritism.

Favoritism for New Hampshire. I'd not be entusiatic. The candidate I would have voted for was eliminated by New Hampshire. F. New Hampshire is more like it. Who has the right to widdle down my choices before I can have a choice.

[Hutzpa]

77. Your Candidate n/t

[cyclezealot]

85. if one thinks we are going to get all excited about

someone else's leftovers, who we find unpalatable crums; no thanks. why bother.

[Hutzpa]

91. Then you should have started

flying from you mothers wombs' then, everyone at one point in their life
started by creeping before walking, its a transition.

[cyclezealot]

95. womb. silly response.

Seriously , guess our only choice. Don't like someone else's left overs; just don't bother to vote.

[robbedvoter]

3. Yeah, cuz the right to vote is soo...1999! DNC is bigger than the constitution

I get it.

[SteppingRazor]

5. There are no political parties in the Constitution.

Nor is there anything about primary elections. Like it or not, the political parties get to decide how they'll pick their candidates.

[southern_dem]

12. Have to agree

the right to vote only applies in general elections. Nominating rules and regulations are the exclusive domain of the parties.

[water]

19. In fact, there is no right to vote in federal elections!

[cyclezealot]

56. Wrong. There is no assured right to vote in the Constitution

How is it we started out only letting property owners vote. Then we had Jim Crow. Where is the Constitution does it say you have a right to vote. Remember it was not even until after Andrew Jackson, that there was a popular vote in the states. The state legislatures elected presidential electors. The only laws affecting November voting is discrimination laws. Nothing else matters.

[Kucinich4America]

13. Get the story straight. It's the DLC who think they are above the law.

You remember the DLC? The Republican infiltration into the Democratic party created by the BushClintons.

Hillary and her surrogates tried to force two more states into early primaries for her own benefit, and they got smacked down for breaking the rules, JUST AS THEY SHOULD HAVE.

It sucks for the people who live in those states (and by your own admission, YOU DON'T, so stop stirring the shit, Hillbot) but the blame goes to Hillary, not the DNC.

[Jensen]

20. Well said and I do live in Florida!

DLC Sucks! :mad:

[DrDan]

102. here here

Complaining about voter disenfranchisement. And then disenfranchising voters.

To hell with 'em.

[Hutzpa]

23. So there is no surprise

there in her visiting Florida, she is part of this sting operation.


Her true colors just keeps showing up everyday.

Why I'm not surprise.


:banghead:

[LittleClarkie]

53. Well said, except I'm pretty sure robbedvoter is not a Hillary person

He's seeing this purely as a voting rights issue. And while I disagree with his take, I can respect his passion.

[sentelle]

80. Still

try and vote in New York in a primary if you are not a Democrat or Republican....

News is: you can't. its a Closed system.

One must remember that the nomination process has nothing to do with US law. Its about whatever the party says it is.

You have the right to vote in the general election, but primaries.... still the province of the party.... and rightfully so.

and if Florida/Michigan do not want to play by the rules, then it is them that suffer the Completely legal consequences.

[SteppingRazor]

4. There's blame to go around everywhere on this one.

Who's to blame?

The state congress that voted (both Dems AND Reps) to approve moving the potential state primary back to Jan. 29?

The state parties that OK'ed the change?

The national Democratic Party, who stripped Florida and Michigan of all their delegates, even while the nat'l GOP only took away half?

The candidates, who all stuck with the DNC and refused to campaign here?

Take your pick.

[Hutzpa]

96. Where you on DU

last year while this was going on, DNC did not give mandate, they told FLA Dem not go
comply with the Republican amendments, because they knew what was underneath, instead,
they allowed the Republicans to run the show. (bully tactics)

[SteppingRazor]

115. Er ... what?

I'm sorry, I'd love to respond, but I can't quite understand your post. :hi:

[DrDan]

6. why are you pissed? do you live in Florida?

I do - and I am pissed. You see, the DNC does not care about my vote. That's the way I see it.

[Hutzpa]

8. because

they are trying to make the party looks bad, encouraging division.

edit: encouraging division

[tomreedtoon]

61. I live in Florida. We HAVE no Democratic Party here.

We have a branch of the Republican Party that pretends to be the old, extinct Democratic Party. They delude people into thinking that there are still Democrats in the state. Think about it; since Bob Graham, have they run anyone with even a fraction of the beliefs held by Democrats elsewhere in the nation?

The Florida Democratic Party is an illusion, and the DNC finally realized it.

[DrDan]

90. well . . . I think we can see a pretty watered-down democratic party throughout the nation

Florida is not alone in that . . .

[Hutzpa]

93. Whats your point,

is that the plan?

:shrug:

[DrDan]

101. plan? Who knows what the plan is.

My point is that I think there is a watering down of democratic values throughout the nation. In many cases, it is hard to distinguish between R's and D's. Many D's today, are nothing but corporate tools.

This is not limited to Florida.

[tomreedtoon]

116. They can't be as wimpy as Florida Dem's.

They literally LAUGHED along with their Republican supposed "opponents" when this primary business happened. They wanted to attack Dean and the national party. They are all cowards and toadys and they deserve to work in those minimum-wage jobs at Disney World until they die.

[thereismore]

9. Obama's double trouble: if he campaigns there, he legitimizes the vote.

If he doesn't and wins the nomination, there may be backlash against him in FL in the GE.

[pampango]

11. You're right. He has to make a tough decision.

Stick with your party and its rules which you agreed to follow or forget about the party and do whatever you have to do to win power and glory for yourself. His decision will tell a lot about what kind of person he really is.

[thereismore]

15. Yes, and vice versa: I heard Hillary is campaigning there. nt

[pampango]

16. Yeah, the same choice applies to all of our candidates. n/t

[1corona4u]

18. You heard wrong.

[thereismore]

21. She is not? I'd like to know. nt

[1corona4u]

29. No, she is not.

She IS going to come AFTER the polls close tomorrow night. That is not breaking any rules, as the deal was they would not campaign here BEFORE the primary. They can do whatever they want after the primary.

[thereismore]

32. I didn't know that. I am sorry. Thanks for telling me. nt

[1corona4u]

47. No problem.

[HooptieWagon]

99. Hillary was in Sarasota yesterday. On her way back now.

[Capn Sunshine]

37. She's in Florida RIGHT NOW

read her itinerary on her website.

[Hutzpa]

68. Nope, she is in D.C voting on the FISA bill

and she voted no....just so you know.

[1corona4u]

69. She's in DC...

I just saw HER on a LIVE vote on the Senate floor....

Sheeseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

[Lucinda]

39. His ads are already running there. He IS campaigning.

[1corona4u]

10. And fuck "Where I am Is of no Importance"

too.

[Hutzpa]

25. Hey!

did I attack you personally? Obviously you have nothing to add but vile,
you go ahead,

abusivebot!

bawahahahaha!

:rofl: :rofl:

[1corona4u]

31. Yeah, you did.

I live in, and LOVE Florida. Hence, you attacked me.

[UALRBSofL]

26. I live in Florida

And I don't appreciate this OP's post. I hope this isn't the general consensus of Barack or his supporters. I mean, Barack already said it was a "Beauty Pageant". :(

[Hutzpa]

27. What makes you think

this is about Obama? its about a small group of people holding the
party hostage, whats more important to you, them or the party?

[1corona4u]

34. I could care less about the 'party' personally....

all votes should be counted.

[SammyWinstonJack]

38. All votes should be counted? How circa 2000 of you!

:evilgrin:

[pampango]

57. If you could't care less about the Democratic party, may I ask which

candidate you are supporting? Do you propose that the party have no rules, optional rules, "follow them if you want to" rules? Does the concept of a Democratic Party mean anything anymore?

We could just have people who want to run for public office rent the "Democratic Party" name so they have something to put next to their own name on the ballot. If the rules we all agree to don't mean anything, it kind of raises the question of why do we have any rules in the party at all.

[Hutzpa]

63. People that care less IMO are either

self centered or are complete disruptor.

I grew up living by the rules, if no one does

then we have chaos, as in the WH today.

[QC]

76. "a small group of people holding the party hostage"

Iowa corn farmers?

[Hutzpa]

78. Thats a troll response n/t

[QC]

84. Actually, no.

The ethanol subsidies, which are responsible for higher food prices and environmentally nonsensical besides, are the direct result of giving Iowa so much power. Every candidate of whatever party or ideological bent has to bow down before the corn lobby and promise more ethanol money to have a chance of winning.

Sorry, but two tiny, lily-white farm states should not choose our presidents.

[Hutzpa]

88. But who says they are,

they start the process of nominating the President of United States of America,
then it moves on to other states.

From there on, the candidates, have to sell themselves to the voters.
I see nothing wrong with that excerpt people that wants to change the
system.

[1corona4u]

33. Exactly.

I don't appreciate it either.

[matcom]

89. no honey, it isn't ALL of Florida

it really IS just YOU

:rofl:

[Warpy]

14. Fuck Florida? No way.

Consider the angle of the dangle. I don't care how big it is, it's still limp.

(Somebody had to say it.)

[1corona4u]

17. I use to live in NM, in fact, I grew up there....

nothing but wind, dirt, and chilies.

Fuck New Mexico.

[Ganja Ninja]

22. Right back at you.

I don't see where the Democratic party has any business telling the people of Florida when they can hold their primary much less writing off their place at the Democratic convention. And yeah we are bigger then the party, we're written into the constitution. We are a sovereign state and we have the right to decide when we want to hold an election not any political party. Would you like it if the GOP were trying to dictate when and where an election could be held? Where does the Democratic party get off "punishing" the democratic voters of Florida?

[Hutzpa]

24. There is a reason

why we process, everyone IMO have to wait their turn, this
feels like standing in line for hours and someone decides to cut you,
how would you feel? why not wait for your turn instead of rushing
to get to the front of the line, there are others waiting,
patiently I might add, what makes Florida different?

[Tulkas]

28. I live in Michigan, My delegates are gone too. Changing rules now is B.S.

Both Michigan and Florida broke the rules and now Florida doesn't want to pay the price they knew would come due.


Grow Up!!!

[Hutzpa]

35. Thank you

Michigan went ahead no problem, why can't Florida do the same?

hence my statement of Florida acting bigger than the party.

What makes them think they're exempted from the rules?

[Glimmer of Hope]

30. A local news station in DC just reported that Senator Clinton is hoping

to get a boost from a win in Florida. What is going on?

[Hutzpa]

72. She is playing politics

just the same way in Michigan, its like buying a brand name,

you buy for the name, as in Gucci, Armani and Calvin Klein etc,

but the question is are you getting quality, don't forget there are

imitations/copy.

[Beacool]

36. The DNC will regret the day they decided to disenfranchise FL!!!

It is one of the top 5 states in the country with millions of voters and many are hopping mad that their vote won't be counted. If enough people stay this angry, come Nov. FL will be in the Republican column.

[Capn Sunshine]

40. Yeah. Right.

What they need to do is ORGANIZE, call a special delegate election , kick all those pretend Democrats out of office, and create a new party.

Because the Fla Dems are just republicans who know they can't get elected unless they run as Dems.
Don't you get it? They have taken over the party.

[sfam]

41. Why not disenfranchise Florida? They're clearly used to it at this point!

I kid, I kid! I don't know all the details but clearly the DNC and the Florida dems both look like idiots here. But changing the rules now isn't the answer. Even though, Hillary will clearly benefit from her use of this issue in the next few days.

EDIT: More seriously, its hard to come up with a more disfunctional democratic state organization. Perhaps Louisiana takes it, but Florida is close...

[rox63]

42. Florida will regret the day they decided to say "F$#@ the Democratic Party" n/t

[UALRBSofL]

43. Please don't say that

Yes I'm a Hillary supporter and yes it most likely will go red but I am praying it doesn't. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

45. I too hope it will not go red, but I've encountered way too many ticked off...

Dems who have stated the intention to abstain in November in protest. Which of course would hand our state to the GOP once again. *shudder*

[Hutzpa]

97. If thats the case,

why bait our candidates to campaign there only to see them losing to
the Repugs.

[Beacool]

48. I'm only stating the obvious.

I used to live in FL and my mother still lives in Palm Beach. I have heard enough big shot Dems. complain bitterly about the DNC the 3 weeks I spent there during the holidays.

[Hutzpa]

51. Then tell the voters

who is responsible for this disaster, point them to their head of the local party.
Why break the rules, Florida are no better than Michigan.

[tomreedtoon]

64. Florida should regret their fictional Democratic Party.

Did you ever see how the Democrats in the state legislature chortle at how they were going to piss on the shoes of the DNC, in full union with the Florida Republicans? They did it. On TV. This is simply a move for the Republicans In Donkey Suits to get rid of Dean and that foolish business of an effective national Democratic apparatus. Did you really believe there are Democratic politicians in Florida?

[madfloridian]

75. It's best to remain silent when you don't understand....

what is going on.

All this tough guy stuff is just bluster with no coherence.

[DrDan]

103. I AM ONE OF THE PISSED-OFF IN FLORIDA

I shall not vote for the party candidate. I shall write-in the candidate of my choice.

So not all votes will go to the R column, but certainly will not support the candidate of the party.

Any why should we. We have not been allowed a voice. So the voice comes at the GE.

[Pacifist Patriot]

44. One thing should be kept in mind however.

I do not absolve the FL Dem party for their role, but please keep in mind that it is the state legislature that sets the date of the primary. And currently the FL state legislature has a GOP supermajority.

[bluedog]

46. Remember that "fuck" Florida in the General.......

....... you can't ignore 4.3-million registered Democrats........

[Hutzpa]

67. Sounds like they are using that to

hold the party hostage, well tally ho...there are 294.7 millions more from other
states.

[DrDan]

104. ah ... so you are willing to write us off also . . .

thanks for admitting it

[Kokonoe]

49. Republicans initiated these ideas.

But I understand that democrats are responsible. Has Something changed I don't Know about.

[Hutzpa]

59. Hence I blamed

local dems for allowing Republicans to control the Dem party.

[R_M]

50. How nice of you to tell an entire large state to..

F--- off.
:eyes:

[Hutzpa]

52. How nice of them to tell the Democratic party to Fuck off n/t

[tritsofme]

54. I'm more concerned that the citizens of Florida have a voice in our party

As opposed to following some arcane rules that make Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, and South Carolina more important than the remaining 46 states.

[Hutzpa]

58. Thats what the constitution called for

if Florida wants change, they should follow the constitutional process.

[tritsofme]

60. Haha, which part of the Constitution are you talking about?

DNC rules can be changed and bended, its not a sacrosanct document like the Constitution.

[tomreedtoon]

66. Only Republicans have a voice in the FL Democratic Party.

If you've seen the lame, conservative, one-babboon-hair-short-of-Bush candidates the Florida Democratic Party has run, you'd realize there are no Florida Democrats. They're all pretenders. There hasn't been a real Democrat in the state since Bob Graham was Governor, and that's why they sent him to Washington. That completed the Republican takeover of the Florida Democratic Party.

The FDP is exactly like the Washington Generals; they're supposed to lose to the all-white version of the Harlem Globetrotters, every game. Sad to say, I have to live in the same state with these frauds, and watch their wimpy opposition to their true masters.

[mondo joe]

112. How does "we want to vote too" = "fuck off Democratic Party"??

[Tatiana]

62. Hey, this was primarily a Republican idea. I'm sure they're having a good laugh.

This strange saga began innocuously enough. Fearing likely attempts by big states like Michigan and Florida to disrupt the parties' primary calendars with early dates in 2008, Republicans and Democrats ruled at their 2004 conventions that states trying to butt in before Iowa and New Hampshire would lose half their delegates. The Republicans left it there. The Democrats decided to try and fix things. The Democratic National Committee's rules committee was tasked with bringing order to the chaotic primaries. Twelve states applied for two additional early primary slots, which were awarded earlier this year to South Carolina and Nevada. Democrats in other states could not vote before February 5.

That created a sticky situation for Florida Democrats when, to nobody's surprise, the Republican-controlled state legislature passed a law in May scheduling the state's primary for January 29. (In most states, primary dates are set by the parties.) The primary date was wrapped up in a bill mandating a paper trail for the 2008 election--a popular measure the minority Democrats could not afford to oppose. Besides, the loss of delegates was largely a toothless penalty, since according to precedent the Democrats' eventual presidential nominee controls the seating of delegates--and surely wouldn't alienate folks from the nation's largest swing state by turning them away.

But the DNC did not leave it there. In August the rules committee voted to strip all the state's delegates unless Florida came up with an alternative to the January 29 voting. "I understand Florida's dilemma," DNC rules committee member Donna Brazile told me later. "But this is not about states' rights; this is about a process we're trying to keep some control over." Two weeks after the DNC vote, Democratic chairs in the "First Four" primary states jacked up the ante with their notorious "four-state pledge" demanding the candidates focus exclusively on them. The signees--including John Edwards, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton--agreed to do no campaigning in Florida or any other state that might try to jump the gun. And under party rules, "campaigning" means just about everything: e-mail messages; calls to voters; TV, radio or newspaper ads; rallies; hiring campaign workers; holding press conferences. The only thing Democrats are allowed to do in Florida--where folks have been complaining for years, with some justification, about being used as an ATM for the party--is fundraise.

The options for Florida Democrats were hardly attractive--"a lose-lose situation," said Steve Geller, the State Senate minority leader. While there was no way to change the January 29 primary date, the DNC said Florida could come into compliance by effectively declaring that vote meaningless--a dubious move, to say the least, in the "state of disenfranchisement"--and either holding subsequent caucuses, a state convention to choose delegates or a pricey vote-by-mail campaign. "Why would we have the presidential candidates' names on a ballot, have people go to the polls and vote and then find out that we're not counting their votes?" asked former state chair Terrie Brady. "We don't want to confuse Florida voters more than they're already confused." Even so, the Florida Democrats were seriously pondering the vote-by-mail option when Governor Charlie Crist and GOP legislators placed a regressive property tax referendum on the January 29 ballot. A strong Democratic turnout would be essential to defeating it.

In late September Florida's Democratic leaders voted to stick with the early primary.

(more...)

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071217/moser

This entire fiasco has been orchestrated by the Florida and national Republicans, but the Florida Dems should have been smarter and not willing pawns in their own destruction. They should have held the subsequent caucuses, so that at least Florida would have had *some* say.

[Hutzpa]

65. Guess what?

you forgot to mentioned that Florida Dems voted with the Republicans on this issue.

They lay on their backs and took all they can from these %#$holes, just so they can

do another 2000 and 2004 on us.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tatiana]

81. Yes they did and that there is no excuse for that behavior.

However, even if the Dems all voted no, the legislature is controlled by REPUBLICANS and the REPUBLICANS would have passed the measure anyway for the REPUBLICAN governor to sign.

I can appreciate the fact that FL Democrats were in a no-win situation. FL Dem leadership should have either agreed to later caucuses OR the DNC should have agreed to pick up half the cost if FL Dems decided to do the mail voting.

Either way, it is a Republican-created mess, compounded by grandstanding against Dean.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

83. the difference tho, is that if the democrats had actually fought

it properly and lost, that would have been enough according to the rules to let the dems keep most if not all their delegates(unless i got the rules wrong)

I'm fairly sure i read something about resisting/fighting such 'tricks' by a republican majority would grant delegates(the Florida dems did not fight or resist )

[TheDonkey]

79. I agree. FL is no more important that PA or other large states that have to wait in line

FL's state party officials are idiots for trying to break from the calendar and unfortunately left the FL voters holding the bag.

[no name no slogan]

82. I'll gladly fuck Florida. Where should I start?

Panhandle or Keys?

[sniffa]

86. I suggest the sensual tip of Florida

[Two Americas]

94. well done spokane

Reading through the entire thread, I am very impressed with the way you are fielding the questions and dealing with the provocations. Well done. You are doing all you can do.

[Vickers]

98. I hope other Floridians are joining me in NOT donating to a primary candidate.

It lessens the pain a little.

[Hutzpa]

100. Thats the type of response

you will get from a lobbyist or corporatist, its all about money. <snark>

[DrDan]

106. absolutely . . .

no donations here.

I would be insane and a masochistic to donate to the DNC.

Another way to lessen the pain is to write in your candidate during the GE. No need to vote for a pig-R, just vote for your D candidate.

[robbedvoter]

105. Here's a cartoon I saw here on DU:

[DrDan]

107. Great cartoon!

[my3boyz]

108. Well...

I personally could care less about Florida's votes! They got uppity and wanted to have more influence in the primary vote and ended up not having any influence. They had too much influence in the 2000 election and they screwed that up big time! They wanted Bush (shouldn't have even been close enough to need those couple hundred votes). So, if the democratic party in Florida wants to break the rules then their citizens have to live with the consequences. If the voters want to be mad at someone they should look to the democratic party in their state.

[DrDan]

109. well - you "could care less"???

or "couldn't care less"???

Perhaps, just perhaps, it is the DLC that tried to exert their influence and power. After all, there were other states that voted even earlier than Florida.

"They wanted Bush" - what the hell does that mean??????? Are you suggesting the D party of Florida wanted Bush???????

Too much influence in the 2000 election. There are only so many electoral votes. So how in the world could there be any more influence than the proportion of electoral votes?

Screwed that up? Well, lets give credit where credit is due. Hard to beat Rove and the RNC election-buying criminal element.

and the DNC will have to live with the consequences. Disenfranchise my vote - and I shall gain my voice during the GE. I shall be voting for the D candidate of my choice at that time via write-in vote.

[DrDan]

110. and . . .

do you think it is in the best tradition of the Democratic party to draw a line between the national DNC and the state party and then make a personal choice between the two - regardless of the disenfranchisement of the Florida Dems?

You are willing to support this disenfranchisement in support of the DNC?

Seems to me, a true Dem would be concerned about the rights of the individuals. Not be content with having the citizens "live with the consequences".

[my3boyz]

113. The Florida democratic

party learned months ago that their delegates would not count. The DNC won that fight. They did not allow any of the candidates to campaign in Florida. How is it fair to change the rules MID-GAME to allow the delegates to count when Edwards and Barack (mainly Barack because many voters know Edwards from his last campaign) did not have an opportunity to campaign down there? Hillary is ahead because of name recognition. Many people don't watch the cable news so they don't have a clue about Barack. If the party had decided before voting began that they would allow the delegates, that is one thing. However,now that they made that decision they should stick by it. I honestly would say that regardless of who was ahead. You don't change the rules in the middle of an election.

[DrDan]

114. a case can be made for both sides . . .

but it is registered voters who are getting screwed!!!!!!

What would a true Democrat have to say about that?