In hindsight: what were you thinking, Gore, Harkin, Bradley, Ann Richards

[question everything]

and others?

Yes, you wanted a united party as soon as possible, but shouldn't you have waited for at least one primary/caucus before you endorsed Dean?

[PVnRT]

1. Funny

Kerry is locked up, yet people still can't let go of their hatred of Dean. Sad, really.

[jonnyblitz]

15. amazing isnt it.

I am beginning to think its a "condition" with some...anyways...KERRY 2004!!!!

[ConservativeDemocrat]

46. NOT FUNNY. WITH FRIENDS LIKE THESE...

Does Kerry need enemies? Honestly, I have seen less hateful rhetoric out of the Free Republic than is in evidence in these forums.

Personally, if criticism of the Democratic nominee is going to become unwelcome on this site, I think Skinner would do Kerry a much bigger favor by going back and Tombstoning the derisive, divisive, insulting accounts of people who relish attacking other Democrats were runners up after they left the race. Bile filled insults that serve no purpose other than driving people away from supporting the Democratic nominee.

Like the author of this entire message.

- C.D.

[question everything]

57. Why do you see this as "hatred" for Dean?

It was aimed at the "leaders" who so much wanted to show that they were still in charge that they decided that Dean was the front runner and they wanted to be aligned with him. Quickly.

I wish that the Dean supporters would not view every post which mentions his name but which is not a cheer as an attack.

Grow up.

[PVnRT]

65. Take your own advice

What, then, was the point of this thread? To attack people who supported Dean? Baldfaced flamebait? How about you tell me what the point is, so I don't have to infer one.

[question everything]

69. No, the point was about the so called "leaders"

Gore and Bradley tried and failed, back in 2000. Neither was inspiring. I shudder to think of the possibility that Gore would have tried to run again, this time, and to win the nomination, again.

Leading the party should have more to do with the issues, with finding out why so many states are "red." It used to be that the majority of the voters were Democrats. Now only 45%, same as the Republican. Party leaders should go back to the drawing board to realize that old slogans and programs do not speak to most Americans any longer.

But instead they just wanted to keep their names in the limelight and jumped on what they thought was the wagon of the front runner. I would have had the same post had that front runner were Kerry who later would have dropped for lack of support.

Terry McAuliffe lost the elections in 2002, why is he still the chair? Donna Brazile worked on the Gore campaign - why is she still a pundit on CNN?

If nothing else, Dean showed that it is time to change the "things as usual." This means, in my opinion, replacing the people on top.

Back in 1994, when Democrats lost Congress to Gingrich, I was hoping that this would be a lesson for the party to do things differently, to shake the foundations, if you will. But nothing has. Perhaps if Edwards won this could have been a beginning.

Having said all that, I will vote for Kerry, because goal number one is the removal of Bush. I hope that all of us can work on important issues in between election cycles. And this means not just to sit at home and type into a message board. This means to attend city council and county meeting. This means to send letters to our representatives to tell them about what is important to us.

[earthsea wizard]

77. You Make A Guess and Pretend Its An Insight

Have you ever spent time with Al Gore, Bill Bradley, Tom Harkin or Ann Richards?

I doubt it!

Yet it doesn't stop you from pretendng you know why they endorsed Dean, and its telling that you attribute some dark reasoning behind those endorsements!

The simplest explanation as to why they endorsed Dean is that they thought he was the best candidate for President amongst the Dem contenders.

As John Kerry said, quit crying in your tea cup and get over it.

[jeter]

75. This post does no good

Nothing positive comes from rubbing salt into wounds.

Enough.

[LSdemocrat]

2. Umm, you endorse the candidate you like the best.

They liked Dean, as did I.

[Mick Knox]

3. Gore behaved VERY unstatesmanlike...

and thus, he will take his place in History.. as a nothing... ever. A Clinton Asterisk.

Even SNL recognized this with a few very telling skits... I.E. Kerry not wanting to take his call etc..

Very sad he fell so low..

[Kahuna]

14. Yup. What a pity for him to go out like this.

WTF was he thinkin???? From now on when we try to convince people that things would have been so much better if Gore had been president, they will say, "Yeah right. He endorsed Dean, didn't he?" <snicker snicker>

[Mick Knox]

19. Yep.. what a pity..

He could have been a party leader.. he choose to be a wino on a soap box... thats not how a VP behaves... or any elder statesman.

He was a child.

[argonne]

33. Gore just never seemed to "get it."

Endorsing Dean was just so typical of Gore.

Like choosing Lieberman.

[WarNoMore]

22. I always respect and admire

your posts, but I *truly* will never forget Gore's true concession speech. If there is *anyone* who has ever been in that position, then help me out. Gore should be/is our president and I think his class far surpasses all the sh* that he has had to live with. (regardless of how anyone feels about his campaign) As I'm typing this, I'm listening to cheney's malarky) It's just that I can't imagine what I would do in his shoes. *It **was** his!!!

[Renew Deal]

4. Gore is the big fool of the bunch.

Harkin is a follower. Bradley has nothing better to do. Ann Richards is genuine.

[mot78]

7. They were all jumping on the band-wagon

Unfortunately we may be doing the same thing now.

[Cleita]

10. Ann's up there along with Molly Ivins as my all time favorite

Texas good old broads. No one better ever say anything bad about them in front of me. There is no wishy washy changing positions with these ladies.

[asjr]

5. They all wanted the best man and

as far as I am concerned he is still the best one. I'll vote for Kerry but Dean is still, in my book, the true winner.

[DenverDem]

6. Your guy is in.

Why don't you just support him against the real enemy instead of trying to alienate everybody else in the party with your whiny "I told you so" schtick?

[question everything]

12. Actually, "my" guy just announced that he is leaving

after he won my precinct caucus.

And my post was not against Dean. His honorable place in the party is secure. I voted for Gore in 2000 but understand, again, why the primaries were so unexcited with only Gore and Bradley.

Gore and Bradley and Harkin (and Terry McAuliffe) are the "leaders" of the Democratic party. Let's hope that Kerry can shake this "leadership."

[drthais]

8. BUT

Dean wins Vermont toight
and I thought that was way cool

[madfloridian]

9. Is this the way it will be here from now on?

Just wondering.

[nomaco-10]

18. It's the beginning of the purge......

Dean, Gore, Harkin, Bradley and Richards will all have to pay, but Dean supporters will be the ones to really pay the price if they hang around here because Howard Dean scared the bejeebus out of the DLC crowd and they can't get over it. Now they know without our support and if Nader runs, they're doomed, but obviously they don't give a damn. They think Kerry will sweep thru November on his "good looks", and sleep inducing, monotone speeches, they have a rude awakening coming.

[question everything]

72. Please explain what you mean by "this the way." Thanks n/t

[Meshuga]

11. They wanted to show their...

big political penises but ended up with shrinkage instead...

[DenverDem]

17. Kerry I can handle,

his sore winner supporters sure suck, though.

[GalleryGod]

26. Like Andy Dufrane, We Swam through A Mile of SHIT to get here,Dork!

Your Grade: "F".

The Only "Hawks" I endorse are the St. Joe's HAWKS:yourock:

[DenverDem]

66. Thanks for proving my point.

Dork.

[GalleryGod]

29. You soooooooo,Bad! Mr. W!

:bounce:

[GreenArrow]

13. Don't forget Molly Ivins

should have gone with your heart Molly, and voted DK.

[lastknowngood]

16. They were thinking that they knew who the best man was

and wanted to endorse before the DLC/DNC character assassination squad got to work.

[Paragon]

20. Oh PLEASE

Hindsight's 20/20, fence sitta. :eyes:

[RetroLounge]

21. Are you continue the pile-on or will this stop now

It's really kinda pathetic the hatred posts that just won't stop.

[question everything]

71. I feel sorry for you that you see that post as "hatred"

toward whom, I wonder?

You can read some of my posts above, though, if you care to find out instead of just firing up.

[w13rd0]

23. They endorsed the candidate they believed...

...best spoke to them and their concerns. I voted in the primaries for the candidate that best spoke to me. And I won't have to wake up every morning realizing that I jumped off the bridge where and when the media and the DLC told me to. Oh, and those you mention will also be able to comfort themselves with the fact that, unlike some in this forum, they aren't insufferable jackasses.

[madfloridian]

24. As losses started, supporters of others have been decent to each other.

I don't see that tonight. I think it is shame for it to be this way.

Edwards folks are hurting, the Clark and Dean people are still aching, but over a lot of it.....and you guys just keep on.

Winners should be gracious.

[mzmolly]

27. It's totally nauseating. I can't believe that these people are actually

*progressive*

[madfloridian]

32. Am I right, mzmolly? Haven't supporters of others been nicer?

to each other? I think so.

[sangh0]

70. No you are wrong

The person who started this thread is an Edwards supporter, and not a Kerry supporter as you mistakenly assumed

[JI7]

42. this person is an Edwards supporter

the person who started this thread is an edwards supporter.

[question everything]

73. Who is "you guys?"

I am an Edwards supporter, sent him money and voted for him and, yes, I am hurting.

That you, and others, see my original post as an attack on Dean by a Kerry supporter is a sad commentary on how your minds work. On looking for a reason to feel like a victim, or a martyr - you choose.

[mzmolly]

25. They were thinking Dean was the best person for the job of President

just like I was... generally that's what endorsements are for. It's not a *hop on the winning bandwagon* type thing. Were it, there wouldn't be a point.

What I don't get are these bullshit, juvinille, gloating threads about Dean, who is no longer in the race.

Anyone got a clue here?

[CTLawGuy]

28. i think it is telling that

these people did not change their endorsements after Kerry started doing much better and became the clear frontrunner.

[JackRiddler]

30. oh, you mean...

like all the people who have changed their endorsement to Kerry because they like to jump on the bandwagon? This is the more normal behavior.

Maybe Gore & Bradley & Co. had some fucking taste.

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. I think they went with what they thought was best for the country. It

bothers me to read the wait and see and then jump behind a candidate. I respect them more for chosing before the primaries. It shows their own thought process. :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

34. Yes in hindsight it is a mistake but Dean did seem unstoppable and I

thought he was. I think they should have waited, but I havent lost any respect for them, I admit I am no fan of Dean nor was I ever but I dont hold grudges against people for liking a candiate I dont like, I really think Gore would have been wise to not endorse but its his decision I guess.

[dsc]

35. Gee

and I am some sort of anti Kerry bigot when I call his supporters graceless in winning. This thread sure provides a wonderful example of why I think that is a spot on characterization of so many of them.

[JI7]

45. this person isn't a kerry supporter

it's an edwards supporter.

[edzontar]

67. Most Edwards supporters have been more gracious.

It's been a tough night and day for them---but there is no excuse for this.

[Kahuna]

53. That's not really true. Harkin and NJ Gov. McGreevey ..

endorsed Kerry. Gov. McGreevey's poll numbers re-plummeted after that endorsement. He was never popular in the state. That endorsement hurt him. So, he did endorse Kerry last week.

[TheDonkey]

68. Gee?

a very small amount of loud obnoxious Dean supporters still spam this forum with anti-kerry threads.

what's the surprise that others are fighting back?

[gardenista]

36. And you think you'll gain support for Kerry with this BS?

Or is it enough for you to know that Dems will have no other choice to get Bush out of the WH?

Do you mean to imply that there will be "punishments" doled out to some of the fine Dems who stood up for Dean because they believed in what he stood for?

You'd do well to get down on your knees and thank Dean for shouting through the Swan Lake your man and his ilk were dancing for Bush, pink tutus and all.

Dean cleared the tracks for your boy. Now sit down, eat your cake and try to think about how nice it would be to get some of our help.

Until you learn how to ask nicely, you may get our vote in 2004, but that's all you'll be gettin' my friend. Kinda like an arranged marriage. Better than the pyre, but there ain't no love in it.

[Mick Knox]

37. Theres not enough dems at DU to matter anyway..

this is all for fun....

Even if we were ALL in the same state... and All not double names, freeper infiltrators, tombstoned, etc.. and all voted at a consolidated block for Joe "Happy Slap" Smith of the Joes Cool Beer Party, we wouldnt affect an election.

[gardenista]

39. Thanks for sharing why you're here. Don't assume that

I'm here for the same reason, or that simply because I post on DU on occasion that I have no influence upon other voters.

Don't assume that because I post on DU that I'm not willing to spend hours on the campaign trail for the Democratic nominee, or that I won't register Democratic voters any chance I get.

Do make sure not to make those assumptions when you insult me or a candidate I supported with verve, energy, and considerable financial contributions.

Nope, don't assume that at all. Especially when your candidate wakes up tomorrow to realize he's looking at a GOP warchest of $200M, a willingness to lie, cheat, and steal to get Bush re-elected. Nope you don't need lil' ol' me at all, do ya?

Ok, glad we're just having fun here.

[madfloridian]

38. Someone used the word purge.

From the attitudes of state party folks here in Florida, they seemed surprised that we are not scurrying back to our corners like rats.
It has been suggested by some that they were surprised to see us at meetings.

I had a letter about Dean in the local paper, and I got a couple of emails from old "friends" calling me almost traitorous terms.

Purge may be good word, though I would hate to think that.

[JI7]

43. this person is NOT a Kerry supporter

it's an edwards supporter.

[question everything]

74. How sad that you think that this was posted by a Kerry supporter

I am an Edwards supporter but this is not the point.

And it is not an attack on Dean. Had the front runner at that point was perceived to be Lieberman, they would have endorsed him. Were it Gephardt, they would have done the same. Same with Clark, etc.

They were not thinking about Dean, they were thinking about themselves.

But, as is sadly evident from too many posts - Dean supporters are still very sensitive to any hint of attack on him.

Relax, I have been saying over and over, since the Iowa caucuses, that Dean probably saved the party by galvanizing many voters, especially young ones, by showing how one can raise funds differently and by giving this campaign a direction.

But it seems that to expect some rationale discussion here is a wishful thinking.

[ShaneGR]

40. What the hell is with this thread, what is the point?

What is to be served by denigrating thousands of people who supported Gov. Dean?

I'll tell you, nothing, except getting your small rocks off.

[salin]

59. maybe trying to keep the wedge and infighting going?

can't really see any other purpose.

[jsw_81]

41. They were thinking that Dean had it all locked up

And they didn't want to miss the boat.

[dsc]

44. If that were true they would have switched their endorsments

prior to Dean dropping out. Not a one of them did.

[madfloridian]

47. Some will be involved in the DFA movement as well.

:hi:

It will be quite broad in nature.

[argonne]

52. Shows Gore's political instincts. n/t

[bobbyboucher]

48. They obviously lost their pink tutus.

Maybe we can all find them before November.

[gardenista]

49. Or, you can try one of my clothespins!

They come in all colors, even Green, and they are perfect for holding your nose in the voting booth!

(Smaller ones available if a decent VP candidate is chosen)

[bobbyboucher]

50. Or not.

This place got awfully stinky itself. You gotta do what you gotta do. Even if it means doing nothing.

[gottaB]

51. ah, qe, it seems you're tilting at windmills

You did want to talk about Democracy, did you?

You might be interested in a piece from On the Media, Dean Colored Glasses.

The essential answer to your question: "we've gotten so used to polls predicting votes that we've treated them as the same, but they're actually two different kinds of things."

Is there a place in this forum or any public forum for a rigorous inquiry into the Dean phenomenon? It's a question I've posed for myself, and the very difficulty of it reveals the limits of a certain class of assertions. You will see the question being tackled in the academies, where freedom of inquiry and expression are yet genuinely valued, and reality as such is kept at arm's length. In the political sphere, and as for the political import of your question--eh? I don't hold out much hope. I suppose it's a mark of some kind of authentic political reality that I should have had any hope along those lines, that I should have vested such hopes in the Dean phenomenon, or minimally, seen the Dean phenomenon as allied to and nurturing of a popular revolution in discourse.

Well, these are my ramblings--perhaps you will see my point and we can discuss this again at some more opportune time, when it truly no longer matters. For the nonce I'll be retreating into circumspection to the degree that I can restrain my passions--so, really, again, it pains me to see you taking a beating on such a visceral, personal level, but as a practical matter I think the way to foster party unity is to triangulate the Dean question.

[question everything]

76. Fascinating reading. Thank you, and thank you for your kind words n/t

[WI_DEM]

54. it is refreshing how many great democrats came out for Dean

and embraced his message. So what if they took a stand and endorsed someone before anyone voted--that's the problem with politics too many politicians play it safe.

[Atlant]

55. Let's re-discuss this on Wednesday, November 3rd.

There'll be a lot more data available then on whether or not
it was these fine Democrats who were the fools.

Atlant

[mrgorth]

56. Oh, so here's where all the bitter

assholes went. Most of the Kerry stuff has been positive and unifying. I was afraid I'd find a thread where all the Dean haters were spewing their shit. Go to hell.

[question everything]

78. Thus, do you have a personal knowledge of where all the as*holes went?

Who was it that said that you are judged by the company you keep?

How is your post related to this thread, though?

Never mind, I don't want to know.

[CWebster]

58. They were thinking the obvious

until Kerry mortgaged his house and called in his establishment markers and media chiefs:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/city/story/0,7497,1144464,00.html

[Anwen]

60. Here's a thought.

Perhaps they endorsed Dean because they LIKED what he had to say? Could it be that Gore, Harkin, Bradley, and Ann Richards LIKED what Dean stood for?

Since when do people endorse a candidate ONLY because they are "winning" ? Oh, nevermind.

[tinanator]

61. well those were the brightest Democrats

in hindsight I would say they were thinking the same things, and the voters couldnt see past the media portal to understand the significance. I sure hope the votes were counted properly.

[w4rma]

62. They endorsed him, because it was their opinion that he was the best man

for the job. <period>

And frankly, I trust each one of the folks you've listed much more than our current nominee.

[charlie]

63. Probably for the same reasons many who backed Dean did

They thought the party needed a kick in the ass and wanted to lend their weight to the effort to get it done. It's not just about being able to preen with the cachet of having picked a sure winner. Clark picked up a nice stable of endorsements, you think his backers should show some contrition too?

[salin]

64. shh

that is discussion... we want to provoke, not thought, but a food fight!

[zoeyfong]

79. Maybe they were thinking he was best on the issues. Why endorse at all

if it's just about being on the winning side? why not just wait until the election is over, and then say "i support the winner."

[zulchzulu]

80. Those endorsements got big headlines; many other endorsements were...

...just as newsworthy.

Before Dean self-destructed, they thought he was the guy. Perhaps they just wanted to be in the headlines during the Dean peak... I found Harkin's endorsement troubling since he had worked with Kerry for many years.