A New Hetero Primary Privilege: "I'm remaining above the fray."

[CorpGovActivist]

For the umpteenth time today (and from someone whose viewpoint I deeply respect and admire), I've heard that I should "remain above the fray."

:argh:

I cannot afford to remain above the fray. You see, I'm a gay man in a committed relationship of nearly 14 years, faced with the prospect that the Democratic nominee could be someone who thinks that the struggle for gay marriage equality "hasn't been a long-term struggle yet."

Oh, yes, http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/">she said it, on videotape.

Today, I will be writing an op-ed urging http://www.thetaskforce.org/">The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force to update its http://www.thetaskforce.org/issues/marriage_and_partnership_recognition">running list of hetero privileges and legal rights, to include this new - albeit subtle - one: "I'm remaining above the fray."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin">Bayard Rustin - MLK's right hand - was absolutely 100% correct when he said: "The barometer of where one is on human rights questions is no longer the black community, it's the gay community. Because it is the community which is most easily mistreated."

If you're not down here in the trenches fighting with every ounce of your strength for the most electable, progressive candidate possible, why not?

How would you account to Bayard Rustin, if you found him filling in for St. Peter as the maitre d' of Heaven on the day you show up to be seated for your reservation?

"Oh, I'm sorry. We have you down for the topmost ring of Dante's Inferno. That's right above the next ring: we call it The Fray."

- Dave

P.S. On edit (having just realized the window is still open): Lieberman - yes, UGH - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lieberman+domestic+partners">Lieberman, has shown greater leadership on such issues as DP benefits for Federal Employees than Hillary.

[Maven]

1. Why do you attack one candidate on this issue?

You consistently ignore the obvious problems with the other candidates, and one notorious offender in particular.

[CorpGovActivist]

3. If You're Referencing the McClurkin Matter...

... I've gone on the record as being VERY displeased with that.

With all this "experience," though, and especially given her direct contributions to the current Byzantine state of gay rights, I expect more. Don't claim the experience if you don't expect to be held to account for what that experience has entailed.

- Dave

[Maven]

7. Her direct contributions?

What contributions?

None of the candidates have had "direct contributions" to the current state of gay rights, other than bills they've voted on or the messages they've helped propagate.

What are you talking about? Can you name one high-profile gay politician in the inner circle of either of the other two candidates?

[CorpGovActivist]

12. "other than bills they've voted"

Well, that's a loophole you can drive a semi thru.

- Dave

[Maven]

13. Okay, can you give me specifics?

Because I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[CorpGovActivist]

15. It Would Probably Help...

... if you have the time, to watch the videos first. Then, we'd have a common frame of reference.

- Dave

[Maven]

21. I've seen the videos.

I watched the whole event, live.

I still don't know what you're talking about.

[CorpGovActivist]

36. Well, Let's Start with Ground Rules, the Most Important Being...

... are we confined to her record as a US Senator, or can we include the "experience" she cites as First Lady? I welcome a civil discussion, but I don't like having goalposts moved, so I like seeing the field of play clearly marked in chalk first.

- Dave

[Maven]

40. Oh, what nonsense.

Talk about moving the goalposts.

Her experience as First Lady has nothing to do with claiming Bill's governance during that time as her own - she had her own projects and none of them had to do with opposing gay rights. Argue the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of her role during that time, but don't misrepresent the truth to make some cutesy argument.

Hell, as long as you're crediting her with the entirety of Bill's administration, why don't you praise her for trying to get the ban on GLBTs in the military lifted? :eyes:

[CorpGovActivist]

43. I'm Trying to Let You Set the Timeframe...

... and define the rules.

Frankly, I'm tired of having arguments get sidelined by what counts and what doesn't. Pick the beginning date on which her 35 years of experience isn't practice or scrimmage, but is scorable play, where the box scores actually count for entry into the Hall of Fame.

- Dave

[Maven]

47. More prevarication.

Sports metaphors aside, it's clear you're for Anybody but Clinton and therefore give Obama a pass without acknowledging how dangerous he could potentially be to our cause.

I was for Kucinich, and now that he's out of the race I support Anybody but Obama for more concrete reasons than you've provided to substantiate your position. Fact is, I'm not terribly jazzed about either of the two remaining candidates but every time I find myself having to defend Clinton from the distortions of another Irrational Hater it pushes me further into her camp. And I'm not the only one - so congrats.

[CorpGovActivist]

50. Let Me Be Clear...

... I give Obama NO PASS at all on the McClurkin Matter (read: Fiasco).

You may insist on misreading what I write. Let me make this really crystal clear for you: I like Edwards the best on LGBT issues. I like Clinton the least (given repeated proven conduct on her part). I think Obama has a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go to come into line with progressive principles on these issues.

- Dave

[Maven]

52. And yet you've still provided no concrete examples

of the "repeated proven conduct" to which you refer.

If you give Obama no pass at all, as you say, then you might have included him in your OP or the million other OPs you've posted ripping on Clinton for triangulation without mentioning you-know-who. Repeated proven conduct.

[CorpGovActivist]

54. This Sub-Thread Is Waiting...

... on you to pick a date on which her "experience" counts for official scoring.

- Dave

[Maven]

57. How about her entire life.

Is that a sufficiently wide scope?

The fact is, it's not a time issue. You're looking for a way to blame her for Bill's misdeeds, many of which are commonly misconstrued in hindsight.

[CorpGovActivist]

58. You're Sure?

I have the whole of her adult life to choose from, to discuss her "leadership" on LGBT issues?

- Dave

[Maven]

59. Can you defend Edwards' lifetime of leadership on the issue?

And yes, give it your best shot re: Clinton, but be forewarned that attribution of Bill's governance to Hillary will be flatly rejected.

[CorpGovActivist]

61. Thanks for Illustrating...

... the slickly laid chalk lines.

- Dave

[Maven]

62. You just tipped your hand.

I think this has run its course; have the last word if you wish.

[CorpGovActivist]

65. MOVED to #96

Moved to outermost subthread tree by OP.

- Dave

[MADem]

69. This guy doesn't "do" substantive discussion, Mister Korman.

It's taken me awhile to figure out, but all of his threads consist of rather long, sloping subthreads that are bullshit fights over picky nonsense. He'll do the "dog with the bone" routine over a tangential point, and there won't be any discussion of the over-arching issues.

I asked for what link he meant with regard to his first attribution, and got a load of guff before he finally gave me sufficient "clues" to figure out what His Oracle-ness meant.

It's always an unsatisfying exercise, filled with heat, obfuscation, frustration, but no light, no illumination of any issues.

Curious technique, that. It makes one less inclined to engage the individual.

[CorpGovActivist]

I Generally Assume...

... that people can understand terms like "middle," since most kindergartens still teach that concept.

- Dave

[MADem]

80. Whatever. Next time, learn to link like an adult rather than snarkily suggest that others are

kindergarteners because 'you' didn't do it right.

Shifting blame rather than taking responsibility for your own ambiguity seems to be your strong suit, there, 'Dave.'

[CorpGovActivist]

82. I Linked Exactly Where I Intended to Link...

... so that interested readers could see the full array of available data, and with a presumption that most could find the video segments.

Curiously, you're the only one giving voice to your inability to navigate a simple web page.

- Dave

[MADem]

85. Yep. In the wrong fucking place!

Of course, I gave you the proper link, but STILL....you CARP. It's what you do best.

[Maven]

83. I had trouble locating it as well.

Mainly due to the OP's cagey approach to identifying the target of his remarks.

[MADem]

88. Ahhh, Mister Korman, that's all YOUR fault, you see! And our friend will tell you so!

Repeatedly.

I think if one really wants to impart information, one should do it in a straightforward fashion, and not play nonsensical "Snatch the pebbles from my hand, Grasshopper!" games.

:rofl:

He'll do anything to keep his 'threads about mostly nothing' going on for as long as possible, even if it means creating tiresome subthreads that carp and pick.

He'll eventually be disabused of the notion that number of posts does not equate to popularity, I suppose.

[CorpGovActivist]

92. Now That You Know Where You're Looking...

... do you care to discuss the topic or not?

My abject apologies for posting a broad enough link to permit interested parties to see the full array of information resources at VisibleVote.

- Dave

[MADem]

105. No. Because you don't really want to. You just like the sound of your own voice.

Enjoy yourself, now.

[CorpGovActivist]

109. Lieberman Leads, Clinton Follows on DP for Fed Employees

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Domestic+Partnership+Benefits+and+Obligations+Act+of+2007">As shown by the text of the legislation.

That tells me much of what I need to know about where she'll have the LGBT community: at, near, on, at the back of, or under, the bus.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

10. Have you seen this?

One of the complaints I've heard is that Obama never addressed the concern of the gay community AFTER the incident when McClurkin had made his remarks on stage. Now this might not be what people want to hear, but he did respect the concern of gays enough to make a thorough comment and explanation of his thinking and intentions. I'm a little upset that I've had people tell me they were just as mad that he hadn't responded as they are that he hasn't apologized. But he did respond. Anyway, I thought you might want to see this. Maybe people overlooked it, if so, I sure as hell am not the one to bring it to anyone's attention, lol. :hi:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alexokrent/C5zH

[CorpGovActivist]

37. If That's the "Joint Statement"

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alexokrent/CJ5Z

Yeah, I've seen that.

I like the oboe and the plucked cello.

I'm not a fan of the air triangle, whether conducted by a Clinton or an Obama.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

42. IF??

How about you figure out whether you have really seen it, and respond accordingly.

When did Edwards go into churches and talk about homophobia?

[CorpGovActivist]

45. I Recognized the Name...

... as being the same as the one on the Joint Statement.

Obama has a loooooooooooooong way to go on the McClurkin Matter.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

48. It's Obama's statement, nothing joint about it

Are you afraid to read it and find out you've been wrongly crucifying him?

[CorpGovActivist]

51. It's the JOINT STATEMENT...

... of two constituent groups within his campaign.

I've read and re-read it. Hence, my ability to dismiss it out of hand, having already tossed it in contempt as a very bad triangulation.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

66. It's HIS statement

and I guess you'll be dismissing everybody who ever stood up for gay rights along with Obama. If straight people had never listened to gay people, there wouldn't even be any discussion of civil rights. If you want to make progress, you have to keep talking.

[CorpGovActivist]

68. And I Quote: "Joint Letter from the African American Religious and LGBT Leadership Teams"

[sandnsea]

76. NO - It's TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

Oct 25
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/LGBTBlog/CJ5Z

Nov 12
A Call For Equality
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/alexokrent/C5zH

[CorpGovActivist]

79. Thanks!

Did McClurkin appear again on stage with him at a campaign event after he issued that?

- Dave

[sandnsea]

81. Seriously?? Are you kidding me?

Are you seriously trying to tell me you don't know?

[CorpGovActivist]

89. Obama's Site Comes without a Built-in Search Feature...

... so it's harder to find his policy stances or do a keyword search.

But using Google, and restricting the searches to the campaign's site, here's http://www.google.com/search?as_q=mcclurkin&hl=en&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=barackobama.com&as_rights=&safe=images">what I can find.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

91. No no no, McClurkin event

Don't sit there and pretend you don't know there was never another McClurkin event. That's just bullshit.

[CorpGovActivist]

93. I'm Not Pretending...

... I'm asking: where on that site can I find that he was exiled from the campaign?

- Dave

[sandnsea]

95. Did you read the statement?

Read the damn statement I posted up above.

[CorpGovActivist]

97. Read and Re-Read...

... now, and if there is one key take-away sentence from Obama's own pen for me re: McClurkin, what do you think it should be?

- Dave

[sandnsea]

101. Communication

"We will not secure full equality for all LGBT Americans until we learn how to address that deep disagreement and move beyond it. To achieve that goal, we must state our beliefs boldly, bring the message of equality to audiences that have not yet accepted it, and listen to what those audiences have to say in return."

He has no intention of throwing anybody under the bus. In fact, he wants us to realize we've all got to get on the bus together and figure out how to move to a better place.

[CorpGovActivist]

103. Just Making Sure...

... I didn't miss an unequivocal statement on McClurkin there.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

113. "he espouses beliefs... I completely reject"

As I always thought, it doesn't matter what he says because that outrage was never about McClurkin anyway.

[CorpGovActivist]

114. "it doesn't matter what he says"

Could you provide a video link in which he spoke about this?

I'd like to see and hear some of his oratory passion on this subject. The paper statement falls flat, compared to his oratory skills.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

115. You're not interested

You never were because this has always been about Viva La Diva and nothing else. And if you're an Edwards supporter and don't get that that's what has been going on, then here's notice, you were duped. Good bye.

[CorpGovActivist]

116. If There *Is* a Video of Him Bringing His Voice...

... to bear to explain why McClurkin's was used, I'm all eyes, and all ears.

- Dave

[sandnsea]

117. Well you know he did that too

http://www.bilerico.com/2007/11/obama_talks_gay_rights_on_mtv.php

And it still won't be enough because you'll pick out 5 words here or a sentence there to continue bashing him with.

[CorpGovActivist]

118. Thank You for the Link!

[Maven]

86. Well, Kirbyjon Caldwell did.

In December.

[CorpGovActivist]

111. .

[MADem]

2. Caroline Kennedy said it? On videotape? Check your link. nt

[CorpGovActivist]

5. That's Just the Main Story...

... see the middle column of the page, where the video segments from the Visible Vote forum can be found throughout the primaries.

- Dave

[Maven]

20. .

self-delete, wrong place

[MADem]

25. I only see two columns. Why don't you link to what you mean?

Pull the thing up and link to that rather than the main page.

I have no idea if you mean Caroline, Clinton or Queen Elizabeth. You seem to be inferring, but we shouldn't have to go hunting and pecking to read your tea leaves.

[CorpGovActivist]

38. See the Middle Column of the Main Page...

... and I linked to exactly what I intended: the main page of a site that helps give voice to a population hungry for a truly progressive champion.

- Dave

[MADem]

56. I give up. I only see TWO columns. No "middle column."

There's a line down the center of the page from top to bottom. There is a column on the left, and one on the right.

I guess the source of the quote will have to remain a mystery to me, and anyone else who can't read your tea leaves.

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

60. Open up for the Mama Bird...

... to be spoonbill-fed.

1. Go to link.

2. Search on word "rewind."

3. Note all the video "rewinds" beside and under the highlighted word.

- Dave

[MADem]

64. Well, why couldn't you have just done this instead of being a smartass?

I am assuming, from your "she" reference, that this is the link you mean?

http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/2007/08/10/video-hillary-clinton-rewind/

Why all the idiotic drama? You apparently LIKE to start long, contentious threads with almost NO discussion, just a lot of bullshit snarking back and forth. How tough was it to just LINK properly in the first place?

[CorpGovActivist]

67. If You Had Told Me...

... "middle column," I think I could've found it.

Thanks.

- Dave

[MADem]

71. If you had properly linked, YOU wouldn't have had to provide arcane clues as to what you meant.

But stay true to form--blame others when you fuck up.

[CorpGovActivist]

73. "Arcane Clues," Like the Word "Middle"?

You do credit to your school system.

- Dave

[MADem]

78. Right back atcha there, Doctor Livingstone! NT

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

4. Sadly, most candidates think they can safely ignore these issues

They know coming down on either side is going to offend someone, and they know that GLBT voters have nowhere else to go. The republican party is no alternative.

[CorpGovActivist]

23. "GLBT voters have nowhere else to go"

Sure we do.

1. Those who choose to stay in the U.S. can choose to stay home on Election Day.

2. Those who go to the polls can vote only for down-ticket races with true progressives, to build a bullpen of candidates who know how to deliver progressive solutions.

3. Those who have transferable skills can vote with their feet, and go to any one of the growing number of countries where jobs are plentiful and rights are more equal.

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

6. Of the 3 candidates on the Democratic side

2 of them have said publicly they oppose same-sex marriage because of personal and religious beliefs.

1 of them has said they believe in legalized same-sex marriage as a state's right.

Guess which one I'm voting for in the primary.

[CorpGovActivist]

8. Have You Watched the Videos on the Visible Vote Forum? n/t

[maddiejoan]

11. yes

[CorpGovActivist]

14. Mind If I Ask...

... if you viewed them as someone in a committed gay or lesbian partnership?

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

16. well

I'm single at the moment.

But I was in a committed partnership (Both of us transgendered women) for 12 years before she died of heart failure.

[CorpGovActivist]

34. My Very Deepest...

... sympathies on your loss.

:hug:

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

98. Thanks

:hugs:

[CorpGovActivist]

100. You Are Very Welcome...

:hug:

How long ago?

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

106. December 12th 2002

[CorpGovActivist]

107. Oh...

... just over 5 years, now. I cannot begin to imagine the grief.

:hug:

- Dave

[maddiejoan]

108. I hate December 12th

2000 - Supreme Court appoints Presidency to Chimp McCokespoon

2002 - I lose Stephanie

[CorpGovActivist]

110. What...

... a rant you must have with her, in spirit, on that date.

Here's my warmest and fondest wish that you have joyous news to "discuss" with her this year.

:hug:

- Dave

[LordJFT]

17. Two of them want to repeal all of DOMA, one only wants to repeal part of it

guess which one I'm not voting for in the primaries?

[maddiejoan]

18. Because two of them

don't understand the issues well enough to realize the pandora's box that would open.

[LordJFT]

26. so you're saying it's better to support fewer rights for GLBT because the country's not ready for it

[maddiejoan]

28. I'm saying Clinton

has her eyes on the prize, and the other two are giving lip service.

[LordJFT]

112. you're being played for a fool

The Clintons care very little about gays, helped enact DOMA and encouraged Kerry to support the amendment banning gay marriage. Hillary is using the GLBT community as a Tool and will throw them under the bus if she's elected.

[CorpGovActivist]

41. Buy Bus-Proof Kevlar...

... and prepare to be tossed on Day 2 of that Presidency.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

39. Thank Goodness We Have a Clear-Eyed Realist...

... in the race to lead us nowhere.

- Dave

[dsc]

9. The gay marriage struggle has been since about 1990

the Civil Rights Movement, to which she compared it, ran from the 1860's until the 1960's. 100 years vs to be exceedingly generous 20 years. I would think that is a reasonable statement.

[CorpGovActivist]

19. Yup, It Was ...

... hardly Kennedy-esque. No wonder she lost those endorsements.

- Dave

[ruggerson]

22. Why is almost everyone at Logo supporting Hillary?

[Kucinich4America]

27. Logo is a CBS/Viacom network

The corporate media loves Hillary.

[ruggerson]

30. I was referring to the people who work there

who are mostly gay and lesbian, not the people who own it, who are not.

[CorpGovActivist]

55. Pundithink and Groupthink Are the Same Thing n/t

[Kucinich4America]

24. Anyone who takes Hillary's promises to the LGBT community seriously

must have forgotten the promises the Clintons made, and then broke, the first time they were in power.

Sadly, the only candidate who truly supported equality has been forced out of the race. You're taking your chances with any of the remaining three when it comes to LGBT issues, so I would advise two criteria in making your decision:

1) Consider the rest of the platform. The more progressive the platform, the more likely a candidate is going to move forward when it comes to LGBT rights. That much is just common sense.

2) Consider who your candidates advisors are, official or otherwise. We know who's been advising Obama, so we don't need to go there. Hillary is getting most of her advice from Bill, who told John Kerry in 2004 to support the anti-gay marriage amendment! And who also signed DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell, despite campaigning on a pro-gay rights agenda in 1992. Elizabeth and Cate Edwards are openly in favor of marriage equality. They stand a good chance of convincing John to reconsider his being "personally uncomfortable" with the issue. I'd have to say Edwards is the most likely of the three to come around, but please, consider the evidence and reach your own conclusion.

[dsc]

31. actually of the three

only Hillary has a history of having highly place gay employees.

[CorpGovActivist]

46. The QUEEN MOTHER on Employing Gays!!!

After being advised by a Conservative Minister in the 1970s not to employ homosexuals, the Queen Mother observed that without them, "we'd have to go self-service".

:rofl:

- Dave

[dsc]

63. Most of us our employees

Hillary's spokesman, dating from her time as first lady, is an openly gay man who has worked for her ever since. It is hard to replicate a relationship like that and clearly he provides insight both to her about us and to us about her.

[CorpGovActivist]

70. Well, If It's Good Enough for Wilhelmina Slater...

[Maven]

32. Number 2 is the correct answer.

But you oversimplify a bit.

Edwards has Elizabeth by his side. Elizabeth has come out in favor of full equality and I think she would be an ally for us in an Edwards presidency. Edwards has also resisted using overly religious arguments to justify his position.

Clinton has people like Barney Frank and Tammy Baldwin in her camp. She's far from perfect on the issues but watching her talk about same (see, for example, her answer on gay teen suicide) it's clear that she's at least thought about them and is comfortable discussing them.

Now look at Barack Obama. What strong GLBT advisors are close to him? We know he has a good working relationship with people like Kirbyjon Caldwell. Who will he listen to when push comes to shove and people are calling in favors?

As far as the platforms of each, I don't find there to be very much difference at all. So I disagree that that's the best way to choose. The best way to choose, for me, is to take a look at the candidates' history, their advisors and the way they articulate their positions on the issues.

[CorpGovActivist]

33. Very, Very, Very Well Said!

Honestly, I began to give Edwards a longer listen after I watched his answers. I watched the forum expecting to be pleased and blown away by HRC. I wasn't. I was appalled.

When I heard him describing how he is wrestling to overcome his religious imprinting, and to reconcile that with his progressive principles, I heard echoes of other statements from close friends and family members, who eventually came around to full equality.

What I don't hear when I hear him talk is an air triangle on background, and I know for a fact that neither Elizabeth or Cate even know how to play one.

- Dave

[Maven]

35. So you weren't "appalled" by Obama saying repeatedly in 2004

that marriage is "something sanctified between a man and a woman?"

[CorpGovActivist]

49. How in the World...

... did you draw that inference?

Where did I mention Obama favorably in that?

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

29. REALITY CHECK: Lieberman - Yes, UGH, Lieberman - Has Led More Than Hillary...

... on http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lieberman+domestic+partners">DP benefits to Federal employees.

- Dave

[Tatiana]

44. Sometimes I wonder what Coretta Scott King would have thought about this field of candidates. n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

53. MAGNIFICENT Point!!!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=coretta+scott+king+gay+rights">She was unequivocal, actually.

- Dave

[Tatiana]

84. Coretta Scott King gives her support to gay marriage

POMONA, N.J. (AP) — The widow of Martin Luther King Jr. called gay marriage a civil rights issue, denouncing a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban it.
Constitutional amendments should be used to expand freedom, not restrict it, Coretta Scott King said Tuesday.

"Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union," she said. "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages."

Last month, President Bush said he backed an amendment that would ban same-sex unions, calling marriage "the most fundamental institution of civilization."

(more...)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm

I wrestle with that question: what would Coretta Scott King do? Also, who Al Gore (if he does) endorses, becomes an important factor.

[CorpGovActivist]

90. She Was a True Leader...

... and a very, very special person in American History.

Thank you for pinpointing this.

- Dave

[ProgressIn2008]

72. Yes, that is a very good point - none of the candidates seem to put this civil rights

issue very high on the priority list. It's disappointing. I do not want to see GLBT communities get thrown under the bus.

[CorpGovActivist]

74. Welcome to DU!

I am not eager to be thrown under the bus (again) either.

- Dave

[MADem]

75. Well, she donated to Hillary Clinton. Four times.

Here's her record, going back to Jimmy Carter:

http://www.newsmeat.com/celebrity_political_donations/Coretta_Scott_King.php

[CorpGovActivist]

77. The MLK III Letter to JRE Seems Relevant Here...

http://www.johnedwards.com/news/20080121-mlk-iii-letter.pdf

- Dave

[Tatiana]

87. Yes, that is pretty significant.

That almost pulled me out of undecided status, but not quite.

[CorpGovActivist]

94. I Would Be Very Curious to Know...

... what Senator Obama's private reflection and reaction to that was. For instance, did he take it as a gentle rebuke, and as an encouragement from the King family to be more assertive in his leadership on LGBT equality?

It will be interesting to see how he evolves on this.

- Dave

[Tatiana]

99. I increasingly feel that Edwards role in this race is to pull Clinton and Obama (the centrists)

further left.

It was a gentle rebuke and I'm sure Obama took it as such. Let's see what he does in Cali. That will tell the story. He will have to make inroads with both the LGBT and Latinos there, as they have huge numbers and he cannot win without their support.

[CorpGovActivist]

102. I Hope He Has the Full Epiphany...

... that he can truly transcend and lead on these issues.

On Sundays, I often find myself contemplating my http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=corpgovactivist+gay+pentecostal">Pentecostal past, thinking of fervent sermons, wishing for the pastor to wind down in time for Battlestar on a Sunday night (second service of the day).

Our church often held joint services with one of the African American churches down the road, to mingle in fellowship and friendship. Obama can - yes, he can - help lead the thinking.

One of the stealth strengths of his campaign?

Today, for those for whom an African American church service is not a misadventure, you can bet your bottom dollar that there were some VERY savvy sermons.

The story of how a young, inexperienced shepherd took on the trained, armed forces of the Philistines comes to mind. Not a word need be uttered that rhymes with Obama or Barack. But a savvy stemwinding pastor could politick from the pulpit with every parishoner going home with a sly grin on their face as to the audacity of placing hope and faith in an inexperienced shepherd's hands.

; )

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

96. Moved from Innermost Exhausted Sub-Thread

The final word on this sub-thread: I trust Elizabeth and Cate Edwards to continue to push John Edwards privately and publicly toward full marriage equality, and I trust John to continue to give them a fair listen. I base that trust on: (1) the very clear evolution of Edwards' struggle, which http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/2007/08/09/video-john-edwards-rewind/">he has candidly discussed without regard to invisible air triangles; and (2) the publicly unequivocal stances of http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=elizabeth+edwards+gay+marriage">Elizabeth Edwards and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cate+edwards+gay+marriage">Cate Edwards on these matters.

I do not trust Hillary's immediate family members to do the same.

As for Obama, I think he has a loooooooooooooooooong way to go to overcome the hurt he has caused with the McClurkin Matter.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

104. Can You Imagine...

... where the Civil Rights Movement would have been if progressives of good conscience (regardless of race) had not joined with the leaders to march, sit in, petition, film, etc.?

Can you imagine if they'd said, "I plan to stay above the fray."?

- Dave

[TheDonkey]

119. Kerry could have been great for LGBT rights

so far neither Democratic candidate has wowed me on gay rights in 08. I liked Kerry's history (even though he was for civil unions). Voting against BILL CLINTONS Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was big and spoke of his character

[CorpGovActivist]

120. Thanks for Raising...

... the thoughtful articles that have appeared in http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=kerry+clinton+doma+site%3Aadvocate.com">The Advocate, in which Kerry has recounted some of that history.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

121. DO NOT EVEN...

... tell me that I should remain above the fray after the HRC/BHO foodfight over a handshake.

We need a grown-up in the White House.

- Dave