the Nation lists the facts: "Sobering numbers for Hillary"

[ChairmanAgnostic]

SOBERING NUMBERS FOR HILLARY CLINTON...
Here are some sobering numbers for Hillary Clinton:

Seventy-three percent of Democratic primary voters in South Carolina voted against the New York senator's campaign for the presidency.

That's her worst finish yet in a Democratic contest this year.

But it's not an atypically poor finish.

In the Iowa caucuses, 71 percent of recorded votes went to someone other than Clinton.

In the New Hampshire primary, 61 percent of votes went to Clinton's foes.



The article goes on with other states, putting lie to all those of her fans who claim that she is the uniter, that she has the support of the entire party, and that she is inevitable and the only one able to beat John McCain. Clearly, and as seen here, at other liberal and progressive blogs, she does NOT unite the Democratic party, and is far more likely to unite the GOP. Against her. More and more long time democrats who I know and trust are stating openly that Bill's race baiting, attack god mentality and below the belt statements did more to open their eyes about why they don't want his wife in office. It is strange to see comments like ABC (anyone but clinton) coming from DEMOCRATS. But it is what it is. And what it is has been created in part by Bill.

What is almost amusing, were it not so pathetic, was watching Hill strut around with a 20 point lead in South Carolina, playing her inevitability card, only to pretend that she really didn't work that state hard, and at the bitter end, she expected to lose. A 47 point turn around against her, and she sneaks out of the state, without even an honest concession talk? Obviously bad news is something that she must deny, explain away, ignore, - all at the same time.

I agree that McCain will probably win the nomination against Romney, given Willard's making like that girl in the Exorcist movie on the issues. Many moderates I've talked to openly prefer McCain to Hillary, and Obama to McCain.

That should give everyone pause.

the rest of the article can be found here.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=276001

[Occam Bandage]

1. And this is why they're trying to spin it as a "black" thing.

[ursi]

2. as much as I don't like Max Headroom, I mean Romney, his reminder

of a Bill Clinton in the White House with nothing to do has bothered me since Hillary decided to run. And I'm not the only one. Some of us look at the unraveling of the Clinton years differently.

This looks like a backdoor for Clinton to have his power back.

[iconocrastic]

52. Something resonates with "backdoor" and "Clinton" in the same sentence

Hmmmmm......

[Meshuga]

3. The ABC in the democratic party is what scares me about Hillary

I wonder how she would do if Edwards came out of the picture. If the ABC in the democratic party is so strong, could Edwards staying in the race be helping her somehow?

[Le Taz Hot]

6. My guess is that it will do exactly the opposite.

If Edwards does not get the nomination, I think he'll endorse Obama over Hillary.

[vi5]

4. I don't know a single "moderate"

or independent or whatever who would in a million years vote for Hillary. In fact more than a few might just otherwise sit out the election except will vote for whatever repub nominee it is just to vote against her. My father-in-law is the prime example of this, as are more than a few of my coworkers.

The sad thing is that the absolute only reason I'd vote for Hillary in the GE is that I have a daughter and I'd love to have that barrier broken for her, especially since she's too young to actually be absorbing and comprehending how she's actually getting to this point.

[sfam]

45. This is true if McCain is the choice, not Romney

As a left-leaning independent who a month ago would have been happy with either of the two (I vote dem for pres, but usually a mixed ticket for house/senate/state), I can say this is no longer the case. Hillary's campaign approach has flat out turned me off from considering her candidacy - IF McCain is the opponent. Truth and integrity matter to some of us - especially those of us who HATE politicians who work hard to focus on what divides us as a people instead of talking about that which unites us.

If its Hillary and McCain, McCain probably gets my vote (in VA). If its Romney, I may plug my nose and vote for Hillary.

[MADem]

5. SC hasn't gone to the Democrats in the general election of late.

The article kind of ignores that fact.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

7. almost 100,000 more voted in D compared to the R primary.

if that doesn't send a signal to GOPers in office, nothing will.

[MADem]

10. I don't know the answer to this--perhaps you do.

How many registered Republicans v. registered Democrats, as well as independents, are there in SC?

Not how many went to the polls for THIS contest, how many are on the rolls?

SC is an historically REPUBLICAN state in the general elections. I don't know if that is due to a preponderance of GOP registrations, the assistance of Independent and crossover voters, or what.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. I suspect that we will find out in November.

I also suspect that that peculiar shade of red is turning a more sky-ish color.

[MADem]

13. The reason I asked is because I think GOP outnumbers D substantially there. NT

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. perhaps this has a tad to do w/ a potential shift. many almost children

South Carolina War Dead as of December 2007:


S.C. Army National Guard Pvt. Algernon Adams, 36, of North Augusta; Oct. 28, 2003, noncombat injuries, Forward Operating Base St. Mere, Iraq

Army Pfc. Michael Scott Adams, 20, of Spartanburg; Aug. 21, 2003, in combat, caused by ricocheting bullet near Baghdad

Airman 1st Class Carl L. Anderson Jr., 21, of Georgetown; Aug. 29, 2004 in a bomb attack near Mosul

Army Staff Sgt. George Buggs, 31, of Barnwell; March 23, 2003, in ambush of convoy near Nasiriyah

Army Capt. Josh Byers, 29, an Anderson native; July 23, 2003, when homemade bomb exploded under his Humvee east of Baghdad

Army Reserve Pfc. Thomas Caughman, 20, Lexington; June 9, 2004, when his vehicle was ambushed near Baghdad

Marine Staff Sgt. Jay T. Collado, 31, of Columbia; Feb. 20, 2006 from a roadside bomb near Baghdad

Marine Lance Cpl. James R. Davenport, 20, of Anderson, died Nov. 22, 2006 while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province

Army Chief Warrant Officer Jason G. Defrenn, 34, of Barnwell; Feb. 2, 2007when his Apache helicopter was shot down in Taji

Army Sgt. Joseph Derrick, 24, Columbia; Sept. 23, 2005, small-arms fire near Ar Ramadi

Marine Cpl. Matthew V. Dillon, 25, of Aiken, died Dec. 11 in a bomb blast while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar province

Army Spc. Rian Ferguson, 22, of Taylors; Dec. 14, 2003, fell from vehicle near Forward Operating Base Quinn, Iraq

Army Sgt. Shawn Dunkin, 25, of Columbia; died Feb. 19, in Baghdad after homemade bomb destroyed his Humvee.

Marine 2nd Lt. Almar L. Fitzgerald, 23, of Lexington; Feb. 21, of wounds suffered Feb. 18 from a hidden bomb in Al Anbar province

Marine Lance Cpl. Travis A. Fox, 25, of Cowpens; Oct. 30, 2004, killed in enemy action in Al Anbar Province

Army Sgt. Donald D. Furman, 30, of Burton, Oct. 12, 2005; Humvee he was riding in collided with civilian vehicle near Balad

Marine Lance Cpl. Jonathan E. Gadsden, 21, of Charleston; died Oct. 22, 2004,from injuries suffered in combat in Al Anbar Province on Aug. 21

Army Lt. Clifford V. Gadsden, 25, of Red Top; died April 29, 2005 when a bomb exploded near his convoy vehicle in Balad

Marine Cpl. Armando Areil Gonzalez, 25; died April 14, 2003, in Kuwait in an accident. A Florida resident, he was based at the Beaufort Marine Corps Air Station

Army Pfc. Satieon V. Greenlee, 24, of Pendleton; died Oct. 2 in Baghdad from small arms fire

Air Force Staff Sgt. Patrick Lee Griffin Jr., 31, an Elgin native; May 13, 2003, of shrapnel wounds near Diwaniyah

Army Capt. Kimberly Hampton, 27, Easley; Jan. 2, 2004, when the Kiowa helicopter she was piloting was hit by groundfire near Fallujah

Army Spc. Seth A. Hildreth, 26, of Myrtle Beach, died on Aug. 27, in Baghdad, of injuries suffered when a bomb exploded near his vehicle

Army Pfc. Melissa J. Hobart, 22, of Ladson; June 6, 2004, in Baghdad, after collapsing while on guard duty

Marine Pvt. Nolen Ryan Hutchings, 20, of Boiling Springs; March 23, 2003, in combat at Nasiriyah

Army Spc. Darius T. Jennings, 22, of Cordova; one of 16 soldiers killed Nov. 2, 2003, when Chinook transport helicopter was hit by groundfire over Fallujah

Army Spc. Katrina Johnson, 32, of Orangeburg; Feb. 16, 2005after the supply delivery truck she was riding in overturned

Army Sgt. Anthony G. Jones, 25, of Sumter; June 14, 2004, in Baghdad where a bomb exploded near his vehicle

S.C. National Guard Chief Warrant Officer Patrick Leach, 39, Rock Hill; Dec. 9, 2004 in a helicopter crash near Mosul

S.C. National Guard Staff Sgt. Jerome Lemon, 42, of North Charleston; Oct. 27, 2004 in Balad, when a car bomb exploded near his vehicle

Pfc. Juan M. Lopez Jr., 23, of Florence; Aug. 13, 2007, one of three killed when an IED struck their vehicle in Qayyarah

Army Pfc. Vorn J. Mack, 19, of Orangeburg; drowned Aug. 23, 2003 in the Euphrates River

Army Pfc. Spence McNeil, 19, of Bennettsville; fatally injured March 8, 2003, in a truck crash in Saudi Arabia before the war started

Army Spc. Jason Moski, 24, of Blackville; one of three soldiers killed Feb. 25, 2005, by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad

Army Staff Sgt. Paul Neff, 30, of Fort Mill; one of six soldiers killed Nov. 7, 2003, when a Black Hawk helicopter crashed near Tikrit

Army Spc. Anthony C. Owens; 21; Conway; Feb. 1; when his unit was attacked in Baghdad

Army Staff Sgt. Esau Patterson Jr., 25, Ridgeland; one of eight soldiers who died April 19, 2004, in a Baghdad bomb blast

Marine Sgt. John P. Phillips, 29, of St. Stephen; died Aug. 16 at Brooke Army Medical Center, San Antonio, Texas, from wounds received March 7 during combat operations in Al Anbar province

Chief Warrant Officer John R. Priestner, 42, of North Charleston, died Nov. 6, in Balad, of injuries suffered in AH-64 Apache helicopter crash at Balad

S.C. National Guard Lt. Andrew Shields, 25, Campobello; Dec. 9, 2004 in a helicopter crash near Mosul

Army Spc. Orenthial J. Smith, 21, Martin; June 22, 2003, when his convoy was ambushed south of Baghdad

Army Sgt. Maj. Michael B. Stack, 48, Lake City; April 11, 2004, in combat in Anbar province

S.C. Army National Guard Master Sgt. Thomas Thigpen, 52, Augusta; suffered either heart attack or stroke March 16, 2004, at Camp Virginia, Kuwait

Army Staff Sgt. Anthony O. Thompson, 26, of Branchville; one of three soldiers who died Sept. 18, 2003, when their Humvee was ambushed near Tikrit

Army Spc. Douglas L. Tinsley, 21, of Chester; killed Dec. 26 2006, when in a vehicle rollover incident in Baghdad

Marine Master Sgt. Timothy Toney, 37, Columbia; March 27, 2004, collapsed and died of natural causes at Camp Wolverine, Kuwait

Marine Lance Cpl. Joshua L. Torrence , 20, of Lexington; March 14, 2005, of wounds suffered in hostile action in Al Anbar province

Army Staff Sgt. Terry D. Wagoner, 28, of Piedmont; Sept. 14 in Baghdad of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle during combat operations

Army Spc. Zandra T. Walker, 28, of Greenville; Aug. 15, , when the enemy attacked with indirect fire in Taji

Marine Cpl. David G. Weimortz, 28, of Irmo; died Aug. 26, 2006 in a roadside bombing in Al Anbar province

Army Pvt. Anthony Joseph White, 21, of Columbia; died March 25, when roadside bomb blew up his Humvee northeast of Baghdad

Army Spc. Harry Winkler III, 32, of Hampton, died Nov. 12, 2006, when a car bomb went off near his vehicle in Samarra

Army Pfc. Dustin Yancey, 22, of Goose Creek; Nov. 4, 2005, of wounds suffered when Humvee he was in struck a roadside bomb near Baghdad.

Marine Pvt. Rodericka Youmans, 22, Allendale; one of four Marines killed July 6, 2004, in a bomb attack near Fallujah in Al Anbar province

Afghanistan

Army Cpl. Joshua C. Blaney, 25, an N.C. resident and son of a Fort Mill woman; died Dec. 12, 2007, at Forward Operating Base Curry after an improvised explosive device hit his vehicle.

S.C. National Guard Staff Sgt. James D. Bullard, 28, Marion; died in a firefight with insurgents Oct. 30, in Spearwan Ghar.

Army Reserve Sgt. Edward R. Heselton, 23, of Easley; Aug. 11, 2005, in Orgun-E, Afghanistan, when ordnance exploded near the vehicle he was driving

Air Force Staff Sgt. Jason Hicks, 25, of Jefferson; March 23, 2003, helicopter crash near Ghanzi, Afghanistan

S.C. National Guard Sgt. Stephen High, 45, of Spartanburg; April 6, 2005, helicopter crash in bad weather near Ghanzi, Afghanistan

Army Sgt. Michael R. Lehmiller, 23, of Anderson, Aug. 21, 2005, when a bomb exploded near his Humvee during patrol operations, near Baylough, Afghanistan

Marine Capt. Daniel McCollum, 29, of Irmo; Jan. 9, 2002, refueling plane crash in Pakistan while supporting the war effort

Army Maj. Edward Murphy, 36, of Mount Pleasant; April 6, 2005, helicopter crash in bad weather near Ghanzi, Afghanistan

Army Staff Sgt. Tony B. Olaes, 30, of Walhalla; Sept. 20, 2004, in hostile action near Shkin, southeastern Afghanistan

S.C. Army National Guard Sgt. Edward O. Philpot, 38, of Latta; died Oct. 23, in Humvee roll over near Tarin Kowt, Afghanistan.

S.C. National Guard Spc. Chrystal Stout, 23, of Travelers Rest; April 6, 2005, helicopter crash in bad weather near Ghanzi, Afghanistan

[MADem]

16. I honestly don't think so. NT

[MADem]

17. doubleclick, sorry.

[Medusa]

18. People do not register by party in SC

It has open primaries. It is very significant indeed that 100,000 voters chose to vote in the Democratic primary, that Obama won more votes than McCain and Huckabee (2nd in GOP) COMBINED. Ignore the facts or spin them at your own peril. Time will tell and it won't be pretty for the Clintons. Meanwhile, they rip apart our party, use the race card and anything else they possibly can to continue to divide and hope to conquer.

[MADem]

22. There are no registered D's or R's, you say?

That IS interesting.

And I'm not going to "spin" but I am going to say that it isn't unheard of for the opposition to try to shape their opponent's field. It happens all the time. I'm not on the ground there so I don't have a sense of the mood of the voters.

[suston96]

19. There are NO "registered" Democrats or Republicans in SC.

The state does not list political parties in its voter lists. You would probably need to go directly to the state party headquarters to get that information.

[MADem]

23. Maybe you can give me clarity here--so there ARE affiliated Democrats and Republicans.

It's just that the STATE doesn't bother to keep track?

And people can vote in ANY primary they choose? Republicans can vote in the Democratic contest?

[suston96]

26. I am sure there ARE enrolled Democrats and Republicans in their respective party HQs....

...All you have to do to vote in the primary in SC is be registered to vote at least 30 days before the scheduled primary. The state law does not provide for party designations during that registration process.

Once registered, a voter can attend the primary of his choice - but only one of them. Attempting to vote in more than one primary violates a state law.

[suston96]

28. I am sure there ARE enrolled Democrats and Republicans in their respective party HQs....

All you have to do to vote in the primary in SC is be registered to vote at least 30 days before the scheduled primary. The state law does not provide for party designations during that registration process.

Once registered, a voter can attend the primary of his choice - but only one of them. Attempting to vote in more than one primary violates a state law.

[MADem]

29. Thank you. That's what I was understanding, but wasn't certain. NT

[Zynx]

27. And we had almost 4 million more vote in our primaries in 1988 in total

than the Republicans.

[MADem]

30. Al Gore was accused of 'race baiting' that year.

A little history for those who believe rifts can never be healed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore_presidential_campaign,_1988

During the 1988 Democratic presidential primary campaign, when "Rainbow Coalition" candidate Jesse Jackson was the leader in delegates (Jackson had won 55% of the vote in the Michigan caucuses and appeared on the covers of Newsweek and Time magazines in April 1988), some officials in the Jackson campaign accused Senator Gore of focusing on the South as part of a concerted stop-Jackson effort by the Democratic Party leadership to diminish Rev. Jackson's showing there. Rev. Jackson himself accused Gore operatives of employing a subtly racist strategy in the South, and a blatantly racist strategy in New York, where Gore's most prominent backer, New York City Mayor Ed Koch, said that Jews would be "crazy" to vote for Jackson. Additionally, in 2000, Gore was accused of initiating the infamous "Willie Horton" talking point, later used against Michael Dukakis in the general election, while stumping in New York, although Gore denied the charge. Roger Wilkins was among those who denounced what they saw as the racially polarizing tactics of Gore's campaign. Despite this ill will on the 1988 campaign trail, Al Gore was eventually able to mend fences with Jesse Jackson, who supported the Clinton-Gore ticket in 1992 and 1996, and who also campaigned for the Gore-Lieberman ticket in 2000.

[City Lights]

11. Obama got more votes than McCain and Huckabee combined. eom

[MADem]

15. I UNDERSTAND that. I also understand that the GOP 'base' was less motivated this primary.

I also understand that if you didn't vote in the GOP primary last week, you could come out and vote for the Democrat this week.

My question wasn't "How many people turned out?"

My question had to do with the number of registered Democrats, registered Republicans and Independents in SC. I've been looking around and haven't found that answer yet, which is why I posed the question. I was hoping someone might have their fingers on that data.

[elizm]

31. "This election is about the future, not the past..".

Some Obama-haters tend to ignore that fact, at their own peril.

[MADem]

51. Did you feel special, tossing in that little knife slice?

Who are these "some Obama haters" of which you speak?

Be specific, now. Otherwise, stop shopping mendacious innuendo while pretending to support the "politics of hope."

[Thrill]

8. She can't win the GE

face it. Too unpopular outside of the party. And doesn't attract Independents

[ginnyinWI]

9. and maybe within the party too

Before the latest kerfluffle, I would probably have held my nose and voted for her. Now I'm not so sure, even though I consider myself a loyal Democrat. Hill and Bill's circus is getting to be more than I can stand.

[Medusa]

20. Or women. Or blacks. or the young.

n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

21. He's wrong about McCain: it's going to be Willard.

But we will have a clearer picture after 2/5.

[MADem]

25. I say McCain, myself. I don't have a "stake" in that outcome, just a sense.

Mittsy is SUCH a bullshitter. I wonder if he'll win MA!

He should have OWNED NH--he has a million dollar lake home there, and he spent more time in NH than he did in MA when he was governor.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

32. wooden stake, BIG hammer

wait, no. TWO stakes.

[K Gardner]

24. K&R

[populistdriven]

33. K&R! nt

[Metric System]

34. I never get this argument:

"But it's not an atypically poor finish.

In the Iowa caucuses, 71 percent of recorded votes went to someone other than Clinton.

In the New Hampshire primary, 61 percent of votes went to Clinton's foes."

What does this prove? You could say similar things about Obama by totaling the percentage of votes that went to Clinton and Edwards. The argument seems to assume that people are voting for Obama and Edwards just to vote against Hillary which, in my view, is an insult to Obama and Edwards.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. It proves that the majority of Democrats who have voted,do not want Hillary

at least as their first choice. Many will of course come back out of habit. Many will not. And many of those who do not, will be black.

This is her real problem:
"No Democratic voters form a greater part of the core of the party's base than African Americans."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&p...

[AJH032]

38. a majority of Dems do not want Obama either

n/t

[Big Blue Marble]

42. They sure did in SC.

So far in the cumulative votes of all the primaries, he is ahead of her in delegates and in votes.


As to the rest of the country, let's wait and see.

[AJH032]

44. Right, because SC is more important than everyone else combined

You said a majority of Dems don't want Hillary. True, but a majority of Dems who have voted so far don't want your candidate either. That's the truth. Spin it all you want, but there it is.

But I agree, let's wait and see what the final outcome is.

[AJH032]

35. Those numbers are SO easily spun; the article/post is very misleading

I could easily paint a similar picture of Obama:

In New Hampshire, 64% went to Obama's foes.

In Iowa, 62% went to someone other than Obama.

In Nevada, 55% voted for someone other than Obama.

I guess HE can't unite either.



(Note: I'm not trying to paint a negative image of Obama; I'm just trying to show that it can be done, and therefore the OP/article really has no validity.)

[Big Blue Marble]

37. Your argument falls flat in that she was the inevitable candidate.

And more importantly if she wins the nomination, how many of these disaffected voters will be back?

[AJH032]

39. so what?

What does it matter what she was or wasn't? It was only a refutation of the OP.

[Big Blue Marble]

43. So what see post #42.

He has won the most delegates and the most votes so far. Does that matter for anything?

Oh I will answer for you. Of course for you, it doesn't matter. Nothing does that bursts your bubble.

[AJH032]

46. I don't know how I can make this clearer, but I'll try

Yes, he has won the most delegates/votes so far. Fine. That is true, and it was not the intention of my post to refute the truth.

My intention was simply to show that the OP's support for why Hillary is divisive could EASILY be spun around to make any candidate look divisive.

Why are you trying to pick a fight over this?

[Big Blue Marble]

48. I am going to patiently point out that by now she was suppose to have

this thing sewn up. She was to have shaken off all contenders and be ready to frost the cake with the
big blow up on fat Tuesday. The irony is that she has not received the majority of votes so far. She has not
even received a plurality of votes. Get it. She was "inevitable in November, remember?

I know that irony can be subtle. And rationalizations come easily.
But this is a real race. One that she or her supporter were not expecting. She may win, but it is a real race.

[AJH032]

49. I agree, but you must understand

your post does nothing to refute my point, so I do not see why you decided to raise it in opposition. Apples and oranges, one might say.

[Big Blue Marble]

50. I am not refuting your point on its face.

You are right. The numbers can be turned to show that neither he or she have a majority of votes.

He does have the plurality. She does not.

The Nation article is demonstrating one thing. The designated front runner is running way behind.
All prognosticators had thought that she would be way way ahead. That is the irony.

[ginchinchili]

40. Polls have McCain beating Obama.

But it's more fun to pretend that's simply not true, right?

[sfam]

47. Hillary and McCain have FAR better name recognition - check again in a month

Once the rest of the country focus on the race, these numbers will change.

[ErnestoG]

41. AFter NH, "polls" have certainly taken a beating on their credibility

Just sayin'.