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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 08:43 AM
Original message
Nine Days
"There are those who regard this history of past strife and exile as better forgotten. But, to use the phrase of Yeats, let us not casually reduce ‘that great past to a trouble of fools,’ for we need not feel the bitterness of the past to discover its meaning for the present and the future." – John F. Kennedy, 1963.

{1} Hillary Clinton: A few years ago, my brother-in-law and I drove to the village of Sidney, NY. Senator Clinton was making an unannounced stop there, to meet behind closed doors with area business leaders, before heading to Binghamton for a large public meeting. We wanted to discuss a couple of issues with Senator Clinton, and figured it might be more better to try to speak to her in an informal setting.

Senator Clinton took the time to meet with a small group of people for about an hour. First she spoke to the group, taking questions, and just speaking off the cuff. I had a chance to talk to her after that, about two topics of interest to me (the Plame scandal and the EPA). No newspaper reporters, no television cameras. Just a US Senator taking the time to have a conversation with people, because she was interested in what they had to say.

When people say that Hillary Clinton is just a corporate politician, who is not very different from the republicans, and that she doesn’t care about the "common folk," I know that they are wrong.

{2} Barack Obama: When Senator Obama spoke last night, after his victory in the South Carolina primary, it was more than the typical politician’s speech in a primary campaign. In a very real sense, it is too bad that the message he delivered was in the context of a victory speech, because it makes it likely that it will be ignored by those who most need to hear it.

The people who support one of the other democrats in the race, or who reject Obama for other reasons, would benefit from listening to that message with an open mind. That does not mean that they need to switch and become Obama supporters before Super Tuesday. In fact, that is the type of thing that should be removed from our thinking before we listen to Senator Obama’s speech: it deserves our attention beyond "politics."

Gandhi said that "truth never damages a just cause." The same cannot be said of some of the tactics used by campaign strategists. There are those who will attempt to spin Senator Obama’s message in a negative way. I prefer to listen to people like Caroline Kennedy, who are invested in the just cause of repairing our Constitutional democracy.

{3} John Edwards: As we watched the results of the South Carolina primary being reported on MSNBC and CNN last night, my son asked why John Edwards was not getting more votes than he is? He said it doesn’t seem fair, because Edwards is campaigning on the issues that should be the most important for the American people who reject the damage done to this country by Bush and Cheney.

Life is not fair, I reminded him. But isn’t that more reason to support a candidate who has worked so hard to represent those people who have been treated unfairly, he asked? This will be the first election that he will be able to vote in, and as a citizen as well as a parent, I welcome the interest and the energy of his generation.

This is a fascinating primary for anyone participating in their first election. We are witnessing history, and it may be that a primary that involves a black man and a white woman being given this serious of consideration for president will overlook Edwards’s qualifications and passion. Yet John Edwards is in a unique position, because even if he decides to withdraw from the contest, his endorsement would be perhaps the single most important in the nation at this time.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. K & R
Your kindness here on this board is so very appreciated. Thank you for this post and all the other thoughtful essays you share with us here.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you.
I realize that my posts are not going to get much attention at this point in time. That's okay. I understand that people feel very strongly about the issues, especially in light of the criminal behaviors and abuses of power of the current administration. Still, I do appreciate that a few DUers still take the time to read my contributions to the discussions!
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Particularly during these times I look for your posts.
I want to join the poster upthread in thanking you. I spend less and less time at DU lately: I find the combative tone here too disheartening. But your posts consistently raise the level of discourse. I'm grateful.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I appreciate that.
Thank you.
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. Seconded.
Kick for substance.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you for the most balanced, even handed and constructive analysis
of the candidates I've seen on this board in way too long a time.

K & R'd
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Thank you
for helping my humble OP survive, if only for a few more minutes, the sinking fate that awaits all attempts at even-handed and constructive analysis on this DU forum!
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Awwwwwww come on cheerful.
Ten rec's in an hour and a half on a sleepy Sunday morning is none too shabby.

Your contributions are truly invaluable here.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Should I get
two hours of sleep, I will indeed be transformed into "cheerful." (grin)
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It truly couldn't hurt.
Rest easy my friend.

I'm taking a snow day myself.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. A house full
of 8th grade girls having a birthday party makes sleep a distant goal. This is a large house, but I am unable to find a quiet corner! They seem to have been silent only when the television has been at full blast! Oh, well: 26 hours down, 24 to go! At the end of this 3-day weekend, I'll have a chance to rest.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Apple didn't fall far from the tree.
You have blessed your son with good genes and it sounds like he is returning the favor.

You must be very proud.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yes, I am.
He takes an active interest in politics, and I really do enjoy when he and his friends want to discuss "current events" with me. I'm retired, and do not have the opportunity to get out much -- hence the DU community is subjected to my rantings! -- and so it gives me the opportunity to pass on some of the things I've learned over the years. I have a lot of faith in the younger generation.
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Danascot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. We have three outstanding candidates
I will be happy to support whomever emerges victorious from the primaries. The country would be well served if the winner could convince the other two to join the campaign as their vice president and secty of state. That would be a future I could be hopeful about.

And as an aside: whenever Waterman is willing to post, it's always worth reading.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The combined talents
of the three is necessary to begin the process of restoring democracy. It may be that two or three will be in the next administration. I could see one playing a vital role in the Senate, or (as others have suggested) as an eventual US Supreme Court Justice.

I think that a politician can do more good for the nation by being a good US Senator, than our modern society gives credit for. I was glad when John Kerry decided not to run for the presidency again, because he can make a greater contribution as a Senator. Of course, I have an old-fashioned idea of how the federal government is supposed to run.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. An erudite and thoughtful post. Definitely recommended. n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thank you. n/t
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think Obama might win
according to my crystal ball, which is right every now and then.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. This is, beyond
the hostility, a fascinating primary. I do believe that the three candidates are the strongest, most capable at this point in a primary in my lifetime. I am not saying the most popular with the entire party. Actually, the second tier democrats who have dropped out (Biden, Dodd, and Richardson) were all fully qualified to be president. At this point, little will surprise me between now and the convention.

I do expect the current administration to try to increase international tensions to benefit the republican candidate.
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks for a great post.
K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thank you. n/t
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
21. The participation of so many young people
looks like it may make this election more of a sea change that a passing of the baton.

I have high hopes.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Right.
I think that the younger generation is using this tool, the internet, in a manner that gives them a huge advantage in terms of being well-informed. We had the "underground press," but it was on like a stage coach compared with today's jets. Information travels fast today.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. Good post
and reasons why I am still undecided
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Thank you.
I think a lot of good democrats are still trying to make a firm decision.
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Your posts always make me smile H20 Man
Edited on Sun Jan-27-08 03:48 PM by minkyboodle
Especially in this cloudy time on DU your great
and well thought out post is very much appreciated.
Thanks a ton for brightening my afternoon with
these wonderful observations
Scott
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I appreciate that!
This is an important time for democrats to find common ground, and for it to be higher ground. We do not have the luxury of "business as usual" in 2008. We can't afford to be distracted by the nonsense that is making it a cloudy time on DU.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
27. Earlier today
I listened to Senator Obama speak about the need to repair the damage done to the Great Writ. I think his appreciation for that beautiful document, The Constitution of the United States of America, enables him to understand why that repair must be made. As he said, we do not incarcerate people who are not charged with an offense.

I think that John Edwards must also be aware that serious damage that has been done. And I think that we have to be honest in saying that the beginning of the damage to habeas corpus was done by the Clinton administration. The repairs that must be made need to extend to the pre-Bush damage.

To be fair, I am not intending to make this an anti-Bill Clinton issue. I think what was done was wrong. Very wrong. I have noted that my friend Rubin Carter could not have been released as he was in the '80s, with the Clinton law. But I also note that Rubin had the opportunity in the '90s to speak with both President Clinton and then Governor Bush. He found Bill Clinton to be concerned about the issues they discussed. His impression of Bush was just the opposite.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Waterman...can you give a little more background about this...
beginning of the damage to habeas corpus was done by the Clinton administration[/i
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Sure.
In 1996, President Clinton was able to work with republcans to pass the "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act." It began to gut the protections provided to US citizens from the unwarrented aggressive actions of a federal government -- in other words, the "Great Writ" of habeas corpus. The damage Bush and Cheney were able to do is actually the second step of something Bill Clinton started.

At the time, the only voice of conscience in the Senate was Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Of course, constitutional law professors across the country were opposed to Clinton's aggressive attack on the most basic of Constitutional protections.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. Everyone should vote their hearts in this primary.
As you have illustrated, we have three candidates whom we can truly be proud of, unlike the Republican field.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. But...what was your "gut" reaction
to the time that Hillary gave to you? There's less about that...and more about the other candidates....

She "listened"...but as a friend of mine who met with Bill Clinton (as a small business owner) at a White House gathering for SMO's said to me.. "He looks in your eyes and you believe he is understanding exactly what you are saying...until he moves on to the next person and the eyes light up once again as if the "next person" is the "first person he's ever met in his life."

This friend did NOT have a favorable impression of Clinton from that meeting. At the time...I was a big Bill Clinton supporter...but had a chill in my bones..thinking about what my friend said. It was like Bill "lazered in" on everyone he meets and you feel he "hears and feels your pain" but then he "moves on" and imparts that same feeling to the next person in line. I didn't want to believe this...but as time moved on...it always stuck and niggled in my mind. Was this a person who was so skilled he could be a "snake charmer?" A sillfull con man? What about Hillary? Is she the best of Bill? There was A LOT TO LIKE ABOUT BILL...and more in many ways than either Carter or Obama?

Just asking...:shrug:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
32. Oh, my ...
... what a wonderful post. Thanks for sharing it with all of us - especially with those who need the most to hear it.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. Fascinating About Clinton
Care to share what she said about Plame?

I wonder, as long as JE stays above 15%, he can stay in the race. I wonder, if the other two contenders keep going at it hammer and tongs and knock each other down, will he be the only one left standing?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. I can say
that Senator Clinton was, in my opinion, one of the first people in Congress to understand what the implications of the Plame scandal really were. And she was a supporter of the Wilsons from the beginning. I think that Joseph Wilson's endorsing Senator Clinton is the result of this, and I consider it one of the more significant endorsements of the season.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Interesting
Does she have any plans to do anything about those miscreants in the WH?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. The time to
do something is while Cheney is still in office. The opportunity to do anything has been ignored by the majority of democrats in congress.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Wow! I didn't know this. Thanks for it.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thanks for your posts.

They are like a "walking stick" ....as we collectively limp toward a civil society!





K and R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Thank you.
I think that we all have walking sticks here. But a shillelagh is too often used to bean someone on the head.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
35. Once again, excellent point Mr. Waterman
This is a "fascinating" primary in my opinion. I haven't seen one quite like this since I started paying attention in 1976.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. The strength
of the democratic candidates stands in stark contrast with the wounded band of republicans. While we consider which of our three is the most capable, they are deciding which republican candidate is least damaged. Yet their machine can still make it a potentially close election.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
36. Your comparison is unfair. You might have a different opinion if you had spoken to Obama personally
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Why is his comparison unfair, in your opinion? n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. Sure it's fair.
Real life isn't gauged in a measuring cup.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
41. Monday Morning Kick
Thanks H20 Man
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
43. I do appreciate your elevating the level here - sorry I was too late to rec this!
Always enjoy your perspective.
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
47. Thanks. Always wise. nt
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
49. Thank you
John and Elizabeth Edwards.
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