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For 8 years, HOPE has been my only solace

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:28 PM
Original message
For 8 years, HOPE has been my only solace
When the 2000 election came down to the Supreme Court and they voted to stop the vote count, and George Bush was handed the White House, I was crushed. I saw a manipulative media, a scheming GOP, and a rather accepting general public. I was mad as hell!

Folks soothed me by telling me that George Bush wouldn't cause too much harm. He would be as mediocre as his father had been, they said. So I hoped that this would be the case. Then a day after being sworn in, Bush showed me that he would wasn't going to let up and would be as divisive a President as he had been, fighting to gain entrance into the White House.

Then 9/11 happened, and I hoped that the country would come together and see Bush for the leader that he was; one that allowed an attack upon our shores. I was one who still hated George Bush, and saw thru his successful manipulation of both the media and the American People. I stopped watching the television in hopes that what I was seeing happened wasn't happening. I hoped that others would also see through his fear mongering, and so I waited.

Then it was announced in September of 2002 that we were going to go to war against Iraq. I was asking myself, Why in the fuck for? I hoped that the American people would see through this and deny George the chance of getting his war on. I looked toward elected officials, and started a letter writing campaign to asked them not to allow us to be taken to war. I hoped that the media would allow us to see the holes in the case that Bush was making. The IWR passed overwhelmingly, and I felt that we were entering into an era of shame and pathetic nationalistic dumb shit. I watched Sec. Powell. at the UN, make an ass out of himself with his cartoon drawings of imaginary things that he attempted to persuade existed. I was stunned!

And so, more determined than ever before, I marched and I marched and I called and I called and I wrote and I wrote, and I hoped that I could make a difference-- but I couldn't.

We went into war with the media gleefully selling us "Shock and Awe". I was repelled and swore that I would no longer watch the television. I turned it off, turned on HGTV and became a very good decorator.

The election of 2004 once again raised my hopes. I was ready more than ever before to see that SOB sitting in my White House be vanquished. I shopped for a candidate, and I felt good. Howard Dean was out there talking about the war that I so hated in a way that I hadn't heard. The other candidates, John Kerry and John Edwards had both participated in acquiescing to Bush on the war, and so they were not candidates to whom I was attracted....(although I did flirt with Edwards for a minute until I found out just how culpable a role he had played in pushing the War in Iraq theme). Howard Dean was about to get my vote, when I heard of a retired General that was contemplating running. I researched his background and felt hopeful that this guy, Wes Clark, would "kill" Bush at the polls. Once again, I took up my activist banner and decided I would participate in changing my country back for the good. Unfortunately, Wes Clark didn't make it (although I believe to this day that he could have won in the GE), and my hopes automatically shifted and trained on John Kerry. I supported him, and hoped that this would be the end of George Bush. It wasn't. I was devastated.

I slumped back to my computer, and started right away in counting the minutes to 2008. I had hoped that Wes Clark, who hadn't gotten wide exposure the last time, would again choose to run. He didn't. Clark endorsed Hillary early, and I kept an open mind. I wasn't a dynasty enthusiast, and looking at her war stance, I felt queasy and not too delighted. I attempted to talk myself into supporting her, but I simply couldn't. The war, which was still going on, held on as a guiding principle for me and it wouldn't let go. I believe that all of our current woes are directly attached to this war that should never have been fought....and so, how that war evolved stayed close to my motives as to whom might get my 2008 vote.

Initially, I didn't notice him much; Barack, that is. As a Black woman, I had seen previous Black candidates run and was never impressed. I initially didn't bother to look into him, because I felt that he wouldn't be a serious candidate, and I wanted to win more than anything. Even Oprah's endorsement of Barack didn't speak to me. But in looking at the candidates, I knew that I couldn't support Edwards because I was never comfortable with his 3 years after the fact apology. It smelled of political calculation almost as strong as his initial push for the war had been. It appeared to me only as a prep to a 2008 run.

And so, as I was about to board the Hillary "maybe will finally win" train, I decided to look at Obama....as I also reviewed Biden and Richardson one last time.

It is then that I became hopeful once again. I listened to Obama talk about ending the politics of division, something that I never understood the whys of anyway. Division had been the problem since before 2000. It was what led to the close election between Bush and Gore. I never understood the partisanship view of things. I had always believed in facts and evidence leading the way to a rational conclusion, rather than there being two equal sides to everything. Here was a man talking about the concept of getting rid of this separation that had kept our country at edge for quite sometime. He talked about changing politics, and after 8 years, I was certainly ready.

And so, we come to today. I am still hopeful, but only hopeful that people will decide correctly that Obama is the person that really can take us to a new place; a place where a majority can start understanding that there is right vs. wrong, good vs. bad, and that a strong leader is one who understands that thoroughly. That it is not about fighting against those who would disagree, but rather, it is more effective to persuade them as to why they are incorrect in their beliefs. To talk directly to Americans with a new language and point out to our similarities, and to our common goals.

As a Californian, living in a very mixed area (Oakland-Bay Area), I had not suspected that Latinos didn't like Black people and wouldn't vote for a Black candidate. I had not suspected that there was a wide gi-sm between Black Religious folks and the Gay community. I was not aware that Women would vote for a woman simply because she was, and that African Americans weren't allowed to believe the same about voting for a Black candidate. I had forgotten that being of mixed race (as I am) would mean that I was possibly not "Black enough". I hadn't figured that students voting was a bad thing...and I certainly wasn't' aware that gaining traction with Independents and dejected Republicans was not the way to win a general election. In other words, I was unaware that a candidate discussing the politics of hope and Change was simply an empty of substance candidate with a corny sound byte that meant nothing to nobody and weight about as much as air.

And so, as I watch MSNBC coverage of the South Carolina primaries, at the same time that voters are entering the voting booth, I now clearly have been made to understand about the significance of Obama's 10% White support over and over again. I see one single poll on my screen showing Barack winning by giant numbers (which is not really what will happen), and I watch as the media touts John Edwards all of the sudden (without stating any of the issues that will kill him in the GE other than he was the "grown up" in last weeks' debate) I realize that there is no such thing as hope....and if there is, the priority is to slowing squeeze it out of us, drop by drop. I realize that hope is too strong of a concept for us to be allowed to have. We should instead go with whatever we are told, and resign ourselves to whatever will be.

So there is no need to pray, to wish, to have a vision, because at the end of the day, hope was taken from me for the last time during this election campaign.

Hillary will not get my vote, because she was finally able to take away my hope.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. have a nice time in the republican party if that's the case :-) nt
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I don't have to vote.
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 03:38 PM by FrenchieCat
I am only one person, and I have lost hope that I make a difference anyway.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Everyone makes a difference
including you. We all make a difference collectively.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. What I believe FC is mourning is the fact that
The Democratic Party has become the Republican Party. Hillary is as Centrist as Schwartzenegger,
and Obama is iout there praising Reagan.

And the Republican Party has become an abomination.

Those of us who are trying to keep the faith instilled in our Progressive little hearts by the likes of people like Bobby kennedy or Martin Luther King Jr, we are chilled to the bone.

And yes, before the trolls start beating on me, if Blah Blah becomes the Democratic candidate, I will indeed pull the lever for Blah Blah because otherwise we'll have loony tunes like McCain or Mittens for President.

I just friggin' wish it was different.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-27-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
76. Contrary to the popular belief at this site, there are parties besides the Ds and the Rs.
Contrary to the popular belief at this site, there are
parties besides the Democrats and the Republicans. Kiss
off enough of us and you'll find the Democrats reduced
to "third party" status.

Tesha
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. you'll be hoping for a long time, enjoy!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. My point was
that there is no hope left for me. There is nothing to enjoy. Get it? :shrug:
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
69. yes. I remember when we were america. I know what you are saying.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hope: that's all Obama brings to the table
Let me know when his speeches don't consistent entirely of platitudes.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Gotta begin somewhere. Hope leads to change.
Or was it unity and prayer?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Obviously, none of it matters.....
So, I'm not sure why you chose to comment.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. you forget his big VISION thingy--Bush talks of visions also. scary
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. You are intellectually dishonest.....
and it is something that I haven't always known.

At least this primary brought out colors in us all.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Then be glad that this won't be an issue much longer.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Iowa was about HOPE.
SC is about change. That's the Obama way...

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. You got me there.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. And, we're all out of goody bags too.
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 03:36 PM by goldcanyonaz
How bout a balloon.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. You are one of those that appeared out of nowhere
with an assignment.

You win!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's all Hillary's fault
she had the audacity to run against the guy you decided to support.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. yup, if read IP, it si Hills fault. More WHINNING
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:45 PM
Original message
It is only about Hillary to the point that her and her ugly yellow jacket
will not win the general election.

But go on with your one sentence quip and your badass self! You're so awesome!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. But you end your OP with it
Hillary didn't take away your hope. And neither will her ugly yellow jacket. Only you can decide how much hope you will continue to have or not.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. Obama does inspire hope Frenchie. And that does matter. A lot.
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 04:11 PM by Tom Rinaldo
I know that. I never have and never will deny that. I can't help it if I am someone who believes that the ability to inspire the maximum degree of hope, while critically important, is not the ONLY important factor to consider in choosing first a presidential candidate, and second an actual president. If hope were my only criteria, Obama could certainly be my candidate.

But the ability to deliver the goods when the pressure is on and the chips are down is important to me also. The first delivery I want secured is a General Election victory. The second one is a successful Presidency. Like you I had a core bedrock criteria that I flirted with straying away from. For me that was a track record of experience sufficient for me to have confidence that my candidate could actually deliver on the pledges that he or she made. I could not get there with Obama. I thought about it, I went and saw him speak at Yearly Kos and was impressed, but I couldn't get past my deep reservations in that regard.

Still I will put my heart and soul into helping Obama get elected if he wins our nomination. I can't even think of asking you or anyone else who does not support Hillary to promise to do the same. I can just ask you to return to this question a month after the nomination battle is settled if in fact Hillary Clinton and not Barack Obama (or John Edwards for that matter) becomes our nominee, to reconsider then.

I do have hope for a Hillary Clinton presidency. I think she can win in November and I think she can do a lot of good for our nation but most of all our people. Like with John Kerry in 2004, in whom I still could recognize the inner anti war protester, I can still see the inner activist in Hillary that sparkled and shined in the late 60's and 70's before she became a Governor's wife (which still continued on from then in more muted form). I know that she has spent the last 8 years carefully positioning herself to run for President and win. I know she decided to take a lower public profile on hot button progressive causes in order to help defuse the Right's attempt to define her as the Liberal's number one leftist poster girl, looking forward to this day.

But even now I read her comments about the plight faced by gay and lesbian teenagers and I recognize something positive and familiar in Hillary Clinton. I see that she still cares about pain and suffering, about acceptance and justice. I may be wrong and I may be disappointed if Hillary Clinton becomes our nominee. Maybe she won't deliver the goods I am hoping for. I may be wrong and I may be ecstatic if Barack Obama becomes our nominee. Maybe he will deliver the good I am hoping for. But above all else I ask you this, no matter what happens next Frenchie, keep hope alive. Please, for all of us, try to do that.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:41 PM
Original message
Thanks Tom......
I don't believe that "Hope" is all that Obama offers. I think that as was done with Wes Clark, he has been made in a one dimensional candidate. And you basically are buying into that view. And in addition, I don't believe that Hillary's "experience" shows that she is always correct in her assessments, so "experience" in the context that I see it as valuable means making the right decisions.

you state...."I know that she has spent the last 8 years carefully positioning herself to run for President and win."--

I have a problem with that statement, considering that John Kerry ran 4 years ago. And that the man that we both supported, also ran in 2004. Maybe that is why Hillary didn't raise not one hand in helping Wes Clark, who appears to be very loyal to Hillary. Why didn't she? Do you have the answer to that one?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
54. You are reading more into this than I meant or believe
First I did not say that I thought "Hope" was all Obama offers. Clearly it isn't. I was writing you a short note in reply to your heart felt OP responding to the theme you yourself highlighted. I was sharing personally with you Frenchie, trying to respond in a tone that corresponded with yours. You mentioned your personal decision making path, and I mentioned mine. My reply was never meant to be a political debate on the reltive qualifications and/or assets that either candidate brings to our common table. I had no interest in using your OP to start a political debate between us on this, and I am sorry if my intentions were unclear or misunderstood.

For the record Frenchie I do not believe either Hillary or Bill Clinton wanted John Kerry to lose in 2004. Whatever others may think of Dean, I do not think that either Clinton offered the limited support that they did to Clark in 2004 when they did because they were afraid that Howard Dean was our strongest candidate who would thus deprive Hillary of a chance to run in 2008 unless someone stopped him. They didn't have to offer Clark any support at all if they wanted Dean to win the nomination, it then looked like he was going to be the nominee. They may not have helped Clark much but I have no doubt that they could have talked him out of running if they wanted to, giving Dean a clearer path to the nomination.

Before twisting ourselves into paranoid theories I have a much simpler explanation for what I wrote. Hillary Clinton no doubt believed Al Gore was going to win in 2000. I think she was always hoping to run in 2008, if things worked out, after Gore's two terms in office were up. When she ran for her first term as New York Senator in 2000 she made a pledge to New York's voters that she would finish that full term in office. She couldn't know then that Gore would lose. That would have taken her through 2006 as a Senator. Hillary already had to deal with a element of "carpet bagger" criticism by moving to NY to run for that seat. She honestly would have looked like an unprincipled opportunist if she broke that pledge to NY's voters after making that pledge to them, after they accepted her as their Senator. Hillary kept that pledge and I certainly hope no one here is going to damn her for that.

Hillary is still young enough that she could have run for President in 2012 had Kerry been elected in 2004. That is just 4 years from now and Hillary would just be completing her second term as a U.S. Senator then.

Honestly Frenchie I was trying to be emotionally supportive toward you in my post, because you seemed depressed that Clinton will become our nominee. I wasn't trying to slam Obama or talk you into Hillary. Because of your reaction I am sorry I posted on your thread. I still hope you do not lose hope, either because Obama wins or because you find some other reason to hold onto it.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Sorry if I misread your response then.....
But since your first paragraph started out like this...." I am someone who believes that the ability to inspire the maximum degree of hope, while critically important, is not the ONLY important factor to consider in choosing first a presidential candidate, and second an actual president. If hope were my only criteria, Obama could certainly be my candidate."

I figured you were recommending that Obama was a one dimensional candidate.

In reference to Wes, I wasn't implying anything other than the fact that as little as Hillary or Bill did visibly to help Clark in his bid, I'm just surprised that he has done as much as he has to help her. A nod from either of those two during the 2004 primaries would have done an awful lot for his campaign.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I understand. No, in some way I was more expressing sorrow
that I have been making a case for another candidate who you are experiencing as robbing you of hope. It was meant as part of my acknowleding that Hope really is a positive force. I was trying to explain that, although I am not backing Obama as my first choice, it is not because I sneer in any way on his message of hope. The ability to uplift, to inspire, is a genuinely important element of real leadership. So if I believe that, and if I also believe that Obama is the candidate most capable of articulating our broadest hopes (and I do), obvously there must be some other basis for me to not chose him as my candidate, and in my case (but it certainly doesn't have to be yours) there is. That doesn't mean that I think Obama scores zero in any or all other criteria to chose a candidate. Obama has shown me enough that I can back him with pride if he becomes our nominee.

I agree with you on your last comments. But it never has been about himself for Wes. That is just part of how the man is wired. He will do what he believes is best for the nation whether or not he gets the respect and treatment we believe he deserves.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. what a bunch of BS.
On one hand hope is all you had--can't wait for the day those people who put our kids in harm's way and robbed our treasury...on the other hand, you are so pissed off at Clinton (for what exactly? not making much sense) that you will allow 8 more years of the crap that Bush gave us.

Supreme court alone is a reason to vote for the democratic ticket.

Go ahead betray your country. Cause you lost hope.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. The Supreme Court doesn't bring people to the polls.
Why can't you Hillbots get it through your thick skull?

Only liberal bloggers will vote for the Supreme Court. The average American voter doesn't give a hoot about the Supreme Court.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. and they are the most important reason of all--the keeper of our rights
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. Tell that to the schmoe who'll vote for the candidate they want to have a beer with.
Rights be damned!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. I am now betraying my country.....
who would have thunk it, except for an Hillary supporter.

Bring out the tar and feather, while you are at it.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. oh my god.
That is very inflamtory language. Some would suggest that it is a racist thing to say.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. Quoting you talking to me...."Go ahead betray your country."
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. If you have eyes to read
and a heart to feel, what she said makes perfect sense. You may not agree of course, which is perfectly fine, people think and react differently, that's the way it is and it is pretty good this way. But the attack and attempt to ridicule from you and others (yours was relatively mild, actually) after what and how she wrote... :puke:, you get the idea.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Frenchie
:hug: Not sure what else to add, except maybe that I think I understand....
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. Thanks!
Probably 10% at this site will. :pals:
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KennedyGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. No polotician can ever take away my hope
if you lose yours because someone challenges your candidate..then you should probably didn't have a lot to begin with..
I feel bad that you appear so easily disillusioned.
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Is Hillary the answer?
She practices the Politics of Cynicism. If you like that brand of politics, so be it.
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KennedyGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. I can't say what your answer is...
I know what mine is..
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. It is not the challenge
it's the dirt.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. Well said Frenchie Cat
But as the replies all seem to be coming from the Hillary camp, Im afraid your work went for nothing.

They dont care about a unified country, they only want retribution against the GOP, and have decided to hitch their hate wagon to the biggest target the GOP has, another Clinton.

Should they succeed, this country will be torn apart worse than what we've already lived through since Bush seized power in 2000.

Stay hopeful, it all we may have left.
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ursi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
62. I can understand attacking a candidate but what I can't understand
are some of the nasty personal attacks I've read here against people who support opposite candidates.

FrenchieC just poured her heart out and she gets slapped around for it because she support(ed)(s) Obama?

Come on, everyone, we must lift ourselves above the political morass and be better!

Don't let this election get to you like that. I am trying to do the same.

Peace!!
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. Hey FrenchieCat, I have watched your progression
from early on and agreed with you most of the time. I liked Dean then switched to Clark when it was obvious Dean didn't have a chance by the time it came time for me to vote. He did win Okla.. This race has been a nail biter. Biden was my first choice, he lost, now am an Edwards supporter, but, if he fails then it looks like Obama gets my vote. Saw him last night on c-span and he was on top of his game I thought. All our candidates have "issues" and Edward IWR vote and sponsorship did devastate me as did Hillary's as I felt she had access to inside info from Bill. Wrong. To this day I wonder about Her vote.

Being an old white female I have no problem voting for Obama. How others in States like mine would vote is a big consideration, but, Hillary and Bill appear to be looking way too aggressive/bullying, whatever. It's like we should all realize they are the right ones for the job. Humbleness would be nice. We have had 8 years of arrogance.

Tonight should be interesting!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Thanks for understanding where I am coming from.......as it appears that to a certain degree
you are in a similar space.

It will be interesting tonight....but it would have been more interesting if we could reverse that 1996 telecommunications act and break up the cable networks into entities that are not owned by the same folks that own everything else.

:hi:
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. That's one of many reasons why we need a Dem president
If we can get real control of congress/Senate (60 votes) then hopefully they can help get through bills relating to the telecommunications BS and pages of regulations needed to protect the people. In spite of who is president. Is that a bit of hope?

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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. Obama hopes that Rethugs hope...
that he hopes to hopefully work with them to bring about change even though that's hopeless.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Why don't you take the concept and stomp it on it one more good time.....
I mean, armed with your great wit, that should be easy for you.

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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. I totally agree with you, FrenchieCat.
:pals:

Sadly, I'm tired of hearing those who say, "You must vote for Clinton because you don't have a choice." Well, yes I do. I don't have to vote for her at all. I'm just one person. I'm not the whole state of New Jersey and it won't come down to one vote.

If I want to vote for the Clown Party, what's wrong with that? I'm surely not voting Republican, but I cannot trust the Democrats after what has gone on during the primaries and in Congress. I'm even disappointed with my own Democratic governor.

What's there to hope for?
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. The luxury of living in a blue state :-)
Same here (IL)
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Frenchie...
...I read a lot of your posts here. We started at much the same time, and share many of the same experiences (especially the 2004 stuff). What you do does matter. Don't give your power to those who try to take hope away. :hug:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I don't want to......
But they are so zealous in their efforts...I feel like I'm currently on a freeper board. I've never felt like that before! :(
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I feel like that every day.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. I've been posting about that...
...too.
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desi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
42. OK I am going to challenge you on just one of your comments.
Let's cut to the chase.
"As a Californian, living in a very mixed area (Oakland-Bay Area), I had not suspected that Latinos didn't like Black people and wouldn't vote for a Black candidate."

Several points/facts. Chicago has a HUGE Latino population. I challenge you to prove that "Latinos don't like Black people and that Latinos did not vote for Barack Obama."

San Francisco had a Black Mayor. Are you sure that "Latinos don't like Black people and that they did not vote for Willie Brown?

SPANISH Harlem and parts of the BRONX are in Congressman Charlie Rangel's district which was Adam Clayton Powell's district before him. I ask again: Are you sure that "Latinos didn't like Black people and wouldn't vote for a Black candidate." ?????

I can go on forever with examples that lay waste to your RIDICULOUS comment that "Latinos didn't like Black people and wouldn't vote for a Black candidate."

You need to correct that statement!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. It is not a statement that I believe....it is a statement that is being made
during this campaign. I was being sarcastic in saying that. I was saying that the Clinton campaign has magnified some isolated tendencies as conventional wisdom.

I have many Latino friends and clients, here in the East Bay, and I have never seen there being the kind of tensions that have been overly reported on by the media between the two races.

That's why I am disgusted. Thanks for making one of my points!

Here, read this:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/12/171256/424/480/435807
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
43. Oh Frenchie...don't lose hope. There is ALWAYS hope...not matter how grim
you feel. I agreed with everything you said till the end regarding Hillary. Just think Frenchie...#1 It ain't over till the fat lady sings. #2 Should Hillary win...we might all have Wes Clark back in the saddle again. :woohoo: That alone should give you HOPE for our nation and the world and your kids...no matter how you feel about Hillary. Chin up, a big :hug:and I'm sorry. I know how you felt when we all lost Wes. There is still hope.
Think positive! Maybe Hillary...should she become president..might just surprise you. At this point...I'd be happy no matter who wins this election. I just want it to be a Democrat and we will HAVE CHANGE! Maybe it won't be as much as you'd like...but we will have change for the better. Maybe we'll have to take it in baby steps...damnit! :hug: Auntie
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Thanks AuntieBush.....
But I won't allow Hillary to dangle Wes in front of me. I remember how Bill wasn't "aware" when Wes was retired "early" although he, Bill, could have reversed it--But Bill didn't feel like spending his political capital doing that? I also remember well during election 2004, how the Clintons didn't quite get on board with his candidacy. Why was that? I don't seem to recall how his royalty to the Clintons has done him any good, ever.

But thanks for the nice sentiments. I do appreciate it! :pals:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. You're welcome!
I'm just glad to hear from you. Feared I was on your ignore list. :scared:
Now happy! :)
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. That is the way I see it..
I was for Clark too.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
46. Frenchie, if it's any solace for you
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 04:33 PM by truedelphi
I think that the People did rise up and say not to have a war.

We marched by the millions.

But we had little effect on Bush or the Congress.

And now that we do have the numbers in the House to get invetigationshandled and things brought to a head, Pelosi and others back away.

Seems more hopeless now.

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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
48. Forget the usual assortment of straw man arguments,
forget the maudlin tone beseeching the predictable chants of solidarity.

If I were to take your post seriously, then GET HELP.

Please.

When you base something on a dream or wish, reality in the form of cognitive dissonance will create feelings of being lost, as truth finally penetrates. A campaign is about more than words in a speech. It is about the substance of those words.

There is nothing wrong with hopes or dreams. I have been an idealist my whole life. However, I am not abandoning my hopes, simply because I don't support Obama. In fact, I am looking to attain those idealistic reveries where the playing field is adjusted to enable the "little guy" to triumph for a change. In this Election, neutering Corporations and empowering people,and reversing the destructive ends of Conservatism, is paramount.

Only John Edwards offers this type of real change, reflecting the LEFT WING of our Party, the core of our Democratic principles.

Obama will win S.C. I just hope Edwards comes in second, so that the M$M is forced to carry his message for a long time to come. We will all profit by that message being heard.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
52. For crimeny sakes.
1. You're going to get all the change you want whether the next president is Obama, Huckabee, or a houseplant.

2. "Hope" is a not a platform. "Hope" doesn't mean jack on its own. "Hope" is meaningless without a plan of action. I can dig through that gigantic pile of horseshit on my lawn hoping there's a pony under there somewhere, but at the end of the day, I want to see the damned pony.

3. You make several astoundingly bigoted, narrowminded assumptions about the very people you should be "reaching out" to:

As a Californian, living in a very mixed area (Oakland-Bay Area), I had not suspected that Latinos didn't like Black people and wouldn't vote for a Black candidate.
Can that broadbrush get any wider? What a horrible thing to say -- you just called all Latinos bigots. If you live in the SFBA (as I have, all my life), you should (as I do) know many, many Latinos. Where did your perception of our Latino neighbors get so skewed? Do you hear any Latinos saying such a thing, even on DU? If so, who? what? when? where?

I had not suspected that there was a wide gi-sm between Black Religious folks and the Gay community.
Is that what you want to believe? Does it somehow comfort you to lay blame on LGBTs (as well as Latinos)? Or are you saying that all black religious people are prejudiced against all LGBT people? If it is the latter, I cannot make that kind of judgment -- but it sounds like a very unfair thing to say about black religious people. At the same time, you are again doing a huge disservice to gay black people (not to mention gay black religious people) -- who are treated as if they did not exist, as if they were "an inconvenient truth" that does not fit into everyone else's nice, neat, compartmentalized view of the world.

It was LGBT black people who brought the homophobia of SOME black religious people to light -- and who have my eternal gratitude for doing so, since without confronting this very uncomfortable issue head-on, there would be no way to even begin to try to resolve it.

I was not aware that Women would vote for a woman simply because she was, and that African Americans weren't allowed to believe the same about voting for a Black candidate.
If that's why you're voting for Obama, then every other argument you've ever made in his favor is moot. I wouldn't vote for or against him because he is black, I wouldn't vote for or against HRC because she is a woman, and -- brace yourself -- I wouldn't vote for a gay person because s/he was gay. I'm not jonesing for a black president or a female president or a gay president -- I want the BEST president. I do not believe your candidate would make the best president, thus will not vote for him.

I had forgotten that being of mixed race (as I am) would mean that I was possibly not "Black enough".
Sheesh... and everybody else is at fault for harping on the race issue? Talk to what's left of my Silician grandparents' generation about not being white enough. Christ, is everything literally black-or-white? To look at me, you'd say I'm white. But with the overwhelming Moorish history in my ancestral woodpile, I've probably got as much "black" DNA as Obama (maybe more).

The point: The people who talk the most about getting "past" the race issue are the ones most obsessed with it. Try to understand this concept I know you don't believe: A helluva lot of white people don't take race into consideration... unless you keep hammering them over the head with the idea of how "different" blacks and whites are. Honest to God, I don't think of you as Frenchiecat, the Black Woman -- I think of you as Frenchiecat, with Whom I Have Never Once Agreed -- and Who Gets Extremely Hostile with Me When I Challenge Her to Go One-on-One on DU. :shrug:

I hadn't figured that students voting was a bad thing...and I certainly wasn't' aware that gaining traction with Independents and dejected Republicans was not the way to win a general election.
Skipping this, as I have no idea what you're talking about, but I assume you must mean that you are a (young) student. (Is this your first election? If so, I can sympathize a tad more with your intense passion, and vast disillusionment.)

In other words, I was unaware that a candidate discussing the politics of hope and Change was simply an empty of substance candidate with a corny sound byte that meant nothing to nobody and weight about as much as air.
Now you're getting it. "Hope" and "change" are empty, meaningless words. Not once has anyone -- least of all Obama -- told me what the man intends TO DO about anything. (Oh, please, Obama supporters, don't start posting all those links again. I've read them all, and more, and at the end of the day, there's no pony.)

...I realize that there is no such thing as hope....and if there is, the priority is to slowing squeeze it out of us, drop by drop. I realize that hope is too strong of a concept for us to be allowed to have. We should instead go with whatever we are told, and resign ourselves to whatever will be.
You've just nailed what sends me right over the top of Mount Frustration with you and almost every other Obama supporter: You look to Obama to tell you to "hope" because "change" is coming -- but when anyone else tries to pin you (or him) down to a definition of either "hope" (hope for WHAT, exactly?) or "change" (change WHAT, exactly?), you get angry and defensive, and bark back pre-programmed responses like, "It's pathetic YOU don't have any HOPE for the future! Why don't you want CHANGE?" :eyes:

Why in the world would I vote for someone who seems to be saying, "Don't ask me what kind of 'change' -- just trust me that it will all be good." - ?

And there is the difference between the Hope-'n'-Change Obama supporters, and me: You operate on an undefinable FAITH, while I want specific, step-by-step PLANS for implementing whatever this great and mysterious "change" is supposed to be.

Hillary will not get my vote, because she was finally able to take away my hope.
Obama will not get my vote, because I want to know what I'm voting for.

So there is no need to pray, to wish, to have a vision, because at the end of the day, hope was taken from me for the last time during this election campaign.
Oh, FFS! That's exactly what I mean: Do you need someone else to give you "hope"? If you're going to pin your entire reason for having hope about anything on ONE MAN -- not a god, not an angel sent from on-high, not a superhero, but just ONE MAN, who is human, whose feet (his wife tells us) stink to high heaven, who belches and scratches his privates and functions just like every other human being on this planet -- how in the world have you managed to exist this long in life?

That is why I believe you, and most of the rest of the Obama supporters, react with such hostility all the time: You are pinning a lifetime's worth of dreams on this one man, who may very well end up disappointing you.

For once, I almost feel some sympathy for Obama: He's bought into the idea of being a demi-god -- but the first time he falters in the eyes of his supporters, he's not going to hate himself for it half as much as you will.

You want "hope"? You make your own. Stop expecting this just-a-man to fulfill every wish you ever had, or you're going to be devastated beyond repair when you get to the bottom of that pile and realize there's no pony there.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
53. FrenchieCat, do not despair! This is very red SC! In the Zogby poll Obama get 19% of white vote!
Hillary and John are tied with 35% of the white vote in Zogby's poll.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
55. Well, FrenchieCat, get over here, because I have enough hope for
both of us! :hug:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Thanks! I need the lift!
:pals:
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
58. you are SUCH a good writer, FrenchieCat
Every single time, for years, that I've read something you've written, that's my first reaction... "DAMN she's good."

I'm sorry you've lost hope. I feel somewhat similarly. It seems absolutely incredible that after seven years of a Bush presidency, there isn't a single candidate that we can all get behind, even if only to varying degrees... I'm not saying there should be only one candidate at this point in the primaries, just that we should all be at least able to stomach the eventual nominee. At a time when party unity should be a no-brainer, the Democrats are doing their traditional circular firing squad thing.

I would vote for ANYBODY if it would keep a Republican out of the White House. I gave up on wanting to love the Democratic nominee when Wes Clark didn't run and when Dodd and Kuchinich dropped out (not that they ever had a chance anyway). Whether the next Democratic president inspires me or just makes it possible to watch the news without needing to vomit, I don't care--I just want this Republican nightmare to END. I don't require wonderfulness out of the next president--although after Bush's presidency we certainly deserve it--but if a Republican wins the next election, after everything that has happened in the country under Republican rule... that is when I will experience an absolute loss of hope for this country, because that will mean we don't even want to be saved.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. self-delete
Edited on Sat Jan-26-08 06:53 PM by Jai4WKC08
posted in the wrong place
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. Thanks Renate for the nice compliment......
I understand what you are saying. :pals:
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ursi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
61. Excellent point! It's been mine too and hope has kept alot of Dems going for 8 years!
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
64. My dearest Frenchie...
I think I do understand. After all, we've been thru so many disappointments together already. Yes, this is one where we are on opposite sides, but really I don't think there's that much difference in what we hope for.

Buck up, sugar. The fat lady ain't sung, and you may yet get what you want. And if not, you will have come a lot closer than anyone thought just a relatively few short weeks ago. You are a strong woman, with a wonderful family. You will persevere and come out on top no matter what happens, of that I am sure.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I know you do Jai! Thank you for your support on this.......
It is greatly appreciated, and shall be remembered!

And if I get what I want, then I do really earnestly believe that many of us will all get what we want very shortly!

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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. .
:hug:
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. Hi again Frenchie
I hope you feel a bit better now :thumbsup:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Yes, I do.......
Maybe I wasn't feeling what I was feeling, alone! :hi:
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. No, you were not
There is hope after all :-)
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. Enjoy this evening, Frenchie.
You've put in a lot of effort. Enjoy this good evening.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-26-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
75. Do you have HOPE again now Frenchie? I hope so...you should. n/t
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