The more Dean is attacked - the stronger he gets. What gives?

[Scott Lee]

"What does not kill me, makes me stronger". I don't know if it was a Klingon who first said this or not, but when it comes to Howard Dean, it certainly fits. From all angles, it's obvious that the Dean campaign defies political gravity. Attacks embolden him. Gaffes endear him to his supporters. Seemingly outrageous policy decisions like his stance on the Iraqi War gain him more, not less, of an audience.


What will stop Howard Dean? Certainly not those things that his detractors first counted on, or conventional political thrusts and parries.

Read on.

__________________________________________________________________



How attacks on Dean may impact race

By Linda Feldmann | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON – Howard Dean may fast become the poster boy for the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

When an independent Democratic group ran a TV ad last week featuring Osama bin Laden's face and an anti-Dean message, the Democratic presidential front-runner appealed to his supporters. The result: $552,000 in Internet donations over three days.

The point of the ad - which aired in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina, and has now been pulled - was to warn that Dr. Dean has no foreign-policy or military experience and wouldn't be able to compete with President Bush next November. Some Dean rivals agreed that the tone was over the top, but also agreed with its message.

Thus was capped a week framed by Bush foreign-policy successes - the capture of Saddam Hussein and a vow by Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi to abandon unconventional weapons - and punctuated by a Democratic pile-on against the man who may end up being the party's nominee.

more here -> http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1222/p01s04-uspo.html


__________________________________________________________________


So, Dean detractors, keep piling on! In the end it equals more popularity and fundraising success for the next President of the United States, Howard Dean.

[Bush loves Jiang]

1. Introducting, in the blue corner, President Rocky Balboa!

:-P (Ya, I know Stallone's a freeptard.)

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. i've been wondering if he isn't enticing attacks to feed his image

that would explain his recent odd behavior....

[TeacherCreature]

2. There is no better defense than being right

That he has in spades.

[wtmusic]

10. You said it TC

when all the smoke clears that's all that's left

[polpilot]

50. As an attorney friend once said : 'The truth is a pretty good defense!'

Go Dean '04...

[rucky]

3. Only Two Democrats have the cred to attack Dean & make it stick:

and one of them endorsed Dean last month.

And if the Dem attacks have minimal effect, the Repug attacks will seem even more politically motivated.

[janx]

4. I think it was Nietzsche who said that.

But I'm not certain.

In any case, the reason it makes him stronger is that it makes those doing the attacks look so weak.

The American voters are better educated than they used to be, and they recognize fear mongering and pandering when they see it. They are insulted when politicians stoop to low tactics to try and sway their opinions.

[rfranklin]

5. The Nazis favorite philosopher said it...

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

Friedrich Nietzsche

[jcgadfly]

9. How long is it going to take for the anti Dean people to

start calling Dean a Nazi?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark04America]

53. just so you know what's out there...

Truely shocking.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark04America]

56. That's great but

this is some of the stuff out there that we'll see a lot more of if Dean gets the nom.
We'd better know what we're doing and be prepared for it.

[Closer]

57. I don't think

that was a "freeper" in the usual terms. Check out the source url on that pic. Big surprise there, huh? :eyes:

There was another DUer (I won't mention any names) who posted a very similar pic. That DUer was a Clark supporter.

[Clark04America]

59. That's correct

I'm a Clark supporter, but it's not my page.
It was sent to me from another supporter in a Clark supporter ring.

And you know the Repukes will be using it soon too.

[Closer]

61. Well here,

pass these along to your "clark friend" ok?

[Clark04America]

63. I may be a Clark supporter but

when I recieved that Dean pic I got so mad I actually contributed $25 to the Dean bat!

[OrAnarch]

62. Doubt it...

"And you know the Repukes will be using it soon too."

At least a few repukes have a tiny bit of class, no matter how superficial, eh?

[Walt Starr]

77. It's crap like that which has lead to my signature

Yep yep yep

[Walt Starr]

76. This is in poor taste

I don't believe a picture depicting a candidate as Hitler is allowable on this forum.

[Tinoire]

81. As the freepers themselves pointed out when this was posted

at Free Republic:


This is extreme, all right.
It's extremely childish.
It's in extremely poor taste.
And it's extremely insulting.

Sure, Dean is angry, and wrong in his thinking, and he acts like a lunatic. But comparing him to Adolf Hitler(!!!), a man who slaughtered millions of human beings, and was the author of the bloodiest conflict in human history, is an insult to everyone who died and suffered because of his regime.

There is no room for this kind of garbage on this forum.

---

I disagree with Dean too, but comparing him to Hitler is really not called for. It's not amusing. It's not thought provoking.

It's just tasteless

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1049077/posts

===

This jpg is the only thing on that "alleged" Clark site and the same one that was posted at FR ealier. I find that rather odd and transparent. Who knows what the party loyalty of the person who photo-shopped this really is?

[Clark04America]

82. Gee, if you found it posted there, then maybe they found it

posted here first?
You don't think some of them lurk here?

Or maybe someone was emailed the URL just as I was.
You may or may not have noticed URLs get passed around the net. ;)

[Tinoire]

84. In answer to your question

In answer to your question, yes, I do think some of them lurk here- they never last long though. Eventually they do something unbelievably stupid and give themselves away.

[Clark04America]

86. I don't mean posting, I just mean reading messages

They posted that in FR several hours after my post here, and I suspect they may have gotten the URL from lurking in here.

And I got the URL from a Clark supporter group mailing list.
So who knows.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

70. YOU said it.... What made you think it?

I'm a psych major... I hate to tell you but you need to think about what that means.

[OrAnarch]

11. He also said...

"I will do my duty and shoot all anti-semites"

He vehemetly despised anti-semites and predicted the Holocaust from 60 years in advanced, due to the environemt in the region, but it was nothing he was advocating whatsoever.


People love taking quotes of of context for political agendas, eh?

[edzontar]

14. Nietzsche is a great and important philosopher

And his significance extends far beyond the co-optation of some of his ideas by the Nazis.

Read about him sometime?

[Scott Lee]

17. Nietzsche deplored politics and anti-semitism

So please allow me to inform you that your nasty little insinuation linking Howard Dean and Naziism was an abject failure.

Thank you.

[Bucky]

26. True, but Nietzsche also deplored democracy.

And society for that matter. He thought that little people would always naturally restrain great people from doing great things. Like most philosophical abstractions, that belief is about 50% truth and 50% horse pucky. The problem with Nietzschism is that it's tailor-made to be carried to logical extremes because it appeals to extreme people and bloated egos.

But he wasn't an antisemite, so it's not all bad.

. . . . . . Just 3 most posts till #1000! Yee-hawww!!

Send me a DU private message ( ) to become a Teacher for Clark
Teachers for Clark beta site

[edzontar]

28. Perspective, perspective....

He wrote this stuff a century ago and more....and lots of bad stuff has been based on interesting or complex philosophy....Christ, Marx, etc.

Look, the guy helped to overthrow mind-over matter, Descartes type bullshit, and provided the groundwork (along with Marx) for the discrediting of Kantian aethetics.

For that, he gets my vote!

[Scott Lee]

40. Good to see someone who's actually FAMILIAR with Nietzsche

Thanks for posting the facts instead of peddling the empty rhetoric of Dean's detractors.

[edzontar]

75. They can't seem to get anything right...

Philosophy, history, grammar, etc....

Stop Dean certainly seems to be one of the least-educated, least thoughtful "movements" in recent politcal history.

I'm so glad they are LOSING.

[Scott Lee]

39. Nietszche was "the last apolitical German"

So it's no surprise that he wouldnt think kindly of democracy either. He hated it ALL.

The point of this Nietzsche sidebar was to call BS on a Dean detractor who tried (unsuccessfully) to brand Nietszche a nazi. That comment revealed someone who obviously has never read Nietszche.

[Scott Lee]

66. Nietzsche was not a nazi. He died before they came to power.

And to boot, he was apolitical - hating all forms of government and detesting anti-semitism (he wrote a long and scathing letter to his sister for marrying an antisemite).

Nice try, painting Nietzsche with the shwastika brush. Sadly for you, many of us know better.

[Bombtrack]

6. Dean has run his campaign according to the lee atwater handbook

Go negative from the beginning, and never let up.

The other candidates are out of there element, IE, they're used to political decency

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bombtrack]

13. that isn't how SENATOR LIEBERMAN has run his campaign that way

In no way close to the constantlying and misrepresentation Dean has shat out

of course you would never know that from how much fake outrage the "hippies, Deanies go hom" sign produced

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bombtrack]

25. edit you post to remove you lie please Liberman isn't my candidate

I guess the fact that I don't laud the anti-moderate democrat chic crowd that seemingly has put him up as their satan idol, makes me "a supporter" to you

[edzontar]

29. Sorry, I guess...I edited as per your request...NOW...

Why don't you retract your insanely insulting and inflammatory posts calling Dean supporters a "Cancer" on the DP?

Should I hold my breath?

[janx]

33. "a cancer"?

Maybe a pox, but NOT a cancer.


These threads get funnier by the day.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

43. You think calling us all "a cancer" is going to win support for your guy?

Because if you do, I have some awful news for you.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

45. Your own words betray you. Let me demonstrate....

You said that "...the Dean team or Dean staff." are a "cancer" on the Democratic Party. It's right up there in your own post.

Well guess what? While I'm not a staffer, I'm definitely on his TEAM. I am part of the Dean Team. Therefore, you have called me a "cancer", as well.

And you know, it hasn't won me over. It hasn't won anyone over. Calling us "cancer" won't win you a thing.

[Scott Lee]

22. "Fake" outrage?

Try laughing pity.

Lieberman is rapidly such a footnote in this race that the sign telling Hippies to "go home" on that Lieberman campaign worker's wall elicited a lot of laughter from us Dean supporters.

Well, the fact that the little campaign worker was grinning like she just took a big bite out of a shit sandwich didn't make it any less funny, I have to admit.

[wtmusic]

7. Don't really understand why being against the war in Iraq

is a 'seemingly outrageous policy decision', but I guess in the current context it might seem that way.

[Scott Lee]

31. Exactly. I was being sarcastic.

Of course opposing this outrageous war is the right thing to do. Sadly, Dean's opponents can't figure out whether they are for or against it...all except for Lieberman, who was already in his fatigues before the Warchimp announced the outset of hostilities.

[AntiCoup2K4]

89. It's "outrageous" if you're a PNAC sellout

Like the other two candidates from the New England region are.

[blm]

12. Same as Bush and his supporters.

I just don't think Dean has as many diehard fans in the Dem party as Bush does in the GOP.

[Scott Lee]

19. That's an awfull lot of folks.

GOP support for Bush is massive. It's the ideologues and free thinkers among the "conservatives" who understand that Bush is no conservative in the textbook sense.

And it's they who are open to wooing to the Democratic side this coming election, only by one candidate - Howard Dean.

[blm]

23. Nope. Dean is far too loathsome a character

and too much of a backtracker and too easily made a fool using his own words. Those who are sick of Bush using that tactic will be sickened by Dean when the ads run to illustrate Dean's changing principles and flaky thoughts are played over and over again till half the Democrats are embarassed that he is even the Dem nominee. Dean is Bush's mini-me.

[edzontar]

30. "Loathsome?" Gee, you guys are getting hysterical.

Really working to hold it all together for the general election, aren;t you?

[janx]

32. LOL! It's out of control.

.

[LuminousX]

41. Rep. Conyers endorses loathsome people?

Wow.

[oasis]

51. Dunno if Rep. Conyers wasn't swamped with more "likable" Dean lobbyists.

[stickdog]

35. You are DEAD wrong, as usual.

http://sierratimes.com/03/12/29/ar_carlworden.htm

[blm]

47. That doesn't change the numbers. Come back with proof

because saying someone is dead wrong is pretty serious. Or are you just saying I'm wrong because you NEED to? Because you know damn well that Dean has been LOATHSOME to me for almost a year now and he has EARNED every bit of my disdain with his attacks and lies.

[Larkspur]

16. Because when Dean is attacked it is also an attack on his supporters

who are pissed at these Establishment Dems and there spineless stands against Bush the Repuke agenda.

Dean's attackers are acting like drowning victims who will take down their rescuer with them if they could.

Bob Graham exited the race like a gentleman. He realized that he was not making headway and bowed out without getting snippy. None of the other guys, except maybe CMB, will ever get my dollars or effort, should they get the nomination, and I'll spit on their name when I go to vote next year. At least CMB hasn't irrationally attacked Dean, so I suppose she's my #2 candidate right now.

[Scott Lee]

20. Do your part and throw them a big rock :)

The sooner they sink, the better.

[paulk]

60. and along with them will sink

any chance we have of winning come November...

[Scott Lee]

68. Ranters and screamers are not holding the election in their hands

The thinking, working people do, though. All the ranters will get from me is a rock.

[Duder]

18. Yup

...

"These politicians are acting like children throwing their marbles at the one who beat them. In this, they display their bitterness not simply at Dean but at the growing legions of Democratic voters who support him. In Washington, the pros worry that these attacks can only help Bush if Dean gains the nomination. But the energy unleashed by the remarkable Dean campaign will continue to grow.

And no matter who gets the nomination, the real question of the election will be whether voters want to fire George Bush or not. Remember, the last insurgent Democrat to win, Bill Clinton, was introduced to most Americans as a man who cheated on his wife, claimed he didn't inhale, ducked the draft and wore boxers, not briefs. Clinton won because voters wanted to get rid of George the First. And like Clinton but unlike his petulant opponents, Dean will at least remind voters clearly of why getting rid of George the Second is equally necessary."

Dissing Dean

[Doctor Pedantic]

21. It's Mystifying

I've been a Dean supporter since last January. I loved that he was a real Democrat and was saying what I was thinking -- especially about the then-looming war in Iraq. I also didn't think he had a chance at getting the nomination. I figured I could support this "fringe" candidate on principle, and then switch over to Kerry once he got the nomination.

Who would've thought this guy would end up the nominee? Not me! I feel personally invested in the guy, having spent so much time and money supporting him and working as one of the grass-roots campaigners. I cringe at his gaffes and have spent a lot of time defending him.

While my support is strong, I have to admit I find it mystifying that Dean is such a Teflon candidate. He was terrible on Meet the Press, yet that was a turning point in his campaign, leading to hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional contributions. Nothing seems to hurt him.

Which is great. If the Democrats' slings and arrows aren't slowing him down, then how can the Republicans'? I agree with Dean in theory that all of the attacks from the other candidates are getting over the top and helping the Republicans. On the other hand, with enemies like these, who needs friends? If Republican attacks bounce off to the same degree the Democratic ones do, what else is Bush going to be left with? His "record" of millions of lost jobs and dead American soldiers?

Bring it on!

[UrbScotty]

34. Well, he hasn't won the nomination YET...

...but something tells me he will. :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Correction: Dean is anything but a "real Democrat."

Dean stole the slogan "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" from a real Democrat, the late Sen. Paul Wellstone.

Dean stole the claim "only candidate to be against the war from the beginning" from a real Democrat, the progressive Democrat, Rep. Dennis Kucinich.

Dean rolls up his sleeves when he speaks, like many real Democrats before him, and his supporters think it's new.

Dean hints that if he doesn't win the nomination, his supporters may not vote for the nominee, but real Democratic leaders always support the Democratic Party nominee.

Real Democratic leaders simply do not threaten that if they fail in the primaries, they'll take the Democratic Party down with them in the following election.

Democrat, no. Autocrat, yes.

[stickdog]

49. Care to jibe that post with your recent pledge to vote Green

rather than Dean?

[mouse7]

55. Wow, the smears never die

Getting desperate to unearth one that old and so easily dismissed.

Sen. Paul Wellstone got the line from a California State Senator who had been using the line since the late 90's.

Dean started using the line when that original author, the California State Senator mentioned (who's name escapes me) was on the platform in Califiornia at an event ENDORSING DEAN.

The original author HAS used the phrase to describe Dean herself way back then.

[Scott Lee]

67. This is what happens when egos override reason.

Oh, and get ready to see a LOT of it in the next month or two.

[Closer]

69. Nice avatar

and how "christian" your attack post on Dean is :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

72. And now for the truth....

Dean stole the slogan "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" from a real Democrat, the late Sen. Paul Wellstone.

Dean did no such thing. At no time did he lay claim to authorship of that quip. Just because I've said "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" without acknolwedging Aesop, does that mean I've stolen it?

Why no....no it doesn't.

Dean stole the claim "only candidate to be against the war from the beginning" from a real Democrat, the progressive Democrat, Rep. Dennis Kucinich.

Wrong.

Dean's claim that he was the only one in the race to be standing up against the war AT THE TIME, is essentially correct. Dennis Kucinich had not yet entered the race.

Context, complete sentences. The boogeymen of smear attempts and shallow thinking.

Dean rolls up his sleeves when he speaks, like many real Democrats before him, and his supporters think it's new.

False.

I have been voting in national elections since 1980, and I've seen many a politico roll up their sleeves. It's a populist tactic, and we are smart enough to figure that out. I am also a Dean supporter, so there goes your theory.

Dean hints that if he doesn't win the nomination, his supporters may not vote for the nominee, but real Democratic leaders always support the Democratic Party nominee.

False. He did no such thing. All he said was that he couldn't gaurantee a "transference" of his support base should he not get the nomination, and he spoke the truth. No candidate could gaurantee such a thing.

Real Democratic leaders simply do not threaten that if they fail in the primaries, they'll take the Democratic Party down with them in the following election.

Good thing, because neither did Howard Dean.

Democrat, no. Autocrat, yes.

Reason and truth? No. Hyperbole and hate? Yes.

[Desertrose]

24. my observation is this....

there are Dean supporters who absolutely refuse to see anything but Dean as a saviour - be nice but I doubt it's true...

there are a few who are realistic about him, but seems like too many have latched on to the idea and projection of what they *want* Dean to be...

and then again...IS he really getting stronger? if so why all the attacks on his fellow dems? why the spin & lies and changing of positions...to me that is a sign of a weak candidate...

but hey, I have a DK avatar so whatever I say can be easly dismissed and I'm sure it will be. I am going now.. a mere ripple in the pond of Dean- soon to be smoothed over as if I was never here...

Peace
DR

remember..I jumped in to answer the question asked...what gives...only shared my humble opinion

[Scott Lee]

27. I cannot, and will not, say a bad thing about Dennis Kucinich.

He is a great guy, and has his heart and philosophy in the right place as far as I'm concerned. I only regret that I don't believe he has the support and punch to unseat the Warchimp.

I would love to see Dennis on Dean's Cabinet, though. Preferrably as AG, just to see the look on that asswipe John Ashcroft's Old Testament face as he packs out his office.

[CoffeePlease2004]

88. I don't think Kucinich would every work for Dean

Kucinich doesn't like Dean because he goes around saying he is the only candidate that opposed the war. I feel that most of Dean's supporters are actually inclined with Kucinich and his platform.
I don't know many Dean supporters that actually back what Dean has done as the Governor of Vermont. Dean really is far more of a moderate than a Liberal. Most of Dean's supporters are very liberal but are caught in this "Dean Movement" as though it was the voice of Progressive Values.

Mike

[TeacherCreature]

36. DR

at any given time of day you can count the attack threads. There are always more (usually way more) attack threads against Dean than any other candidate. I think your perception is off due to your own feelings of how DK is doing. But that is just my opinion. It is at least as valid as your opinion that I don't have a good reason for supporting Dean.
But I will say this. It is too bad that DK is not getting more support. I like him, he is my secound choice.

[TeacherCreature]

37. It is as much about hope as it is about anger

Maybe I should say Dean's support is more about hope than anger. I go to the meetings and there are so many new voters there. They feel that they have a voice and that the politics of same old same old are over. It isn't anger, it is optimism that is driving this campaign. Read Padraig's post about being a new American voter. It is inspiring.

[Scott Lee]

71. Yup. Anger, the vehicle. Hope, the fuel.

[killbotfactory]

46. It's because Dean supporters don't want him to be "Gored"

And almost all the anti-Dean attacks from the candidates and the media are either baseless, blown out of proportion, or based on miscontextualized quotes. The same thing that happened to Gore.

Adding to a Dean bat to combat this kind of crap is our way of fighting back.

[spooky3]

48. "Attacks embolden him. Gaffes endear him to his supporters."

Couldn't this be said/hasn't it been said about *?

I take some comfort in the fact that if it is true about Dean, then it suggests that at least a sizable proportion of the population is cutting him the same slack that Bush gets cut by another sizable group. It has always ticked me off that there is such a double standard for Repugs and Dems, as well-documented by many DUers. Maybe the double standard's days are numbered.

[BobbyJay]

64. I don't know, but Scott Lee makes me want to support Clark.

Keep it up, I'm sure Clark's supporters thank you.

[joefree1]

73. Yeah, I feel the same way about some Clark supporters

I'm sure they'll keep it up too. #52 by Clark04America where he posted a pic of Dean as Hitler was pretty disgusting. Is that supposed to make me think better of Clark folk. For that matter I'm a little taken aback that DU Mods haven't taken pic off.

Thanks a lot.

[arewethereyet]

65. pretty simple answer

his whole deal is anger. Attacks further anger his supporters. Noone thinks when they are angry.

The only problem is that there are only so many angry Democrats.

The rest of us see Dr Dean for what he is. The only question is, will it be enough ?

[joefree1]

74. Wow, that's pretty simplistic

You're not describing anyone I know. My friends and family started supporting Dean becasue of his grassroots campaigning. A lot of us are excited about Dean's populist movement. But we are glad he has back bone.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

"If you have no enemies, it is a sign fortune has forgot you."
- Thomas Fuller (1608 - 1661)

[ima_sinnic]

79. can you please provide links to some "angry" Dean statements?

"his whole deal is anger"--?? wow, did you hear that on Limpballs? yes, that's a good place to get information about a Democratic candidate.

[chester2003]

78. Dean scares the Democratic machine

Dean is scaring the entrenched Democratic party machine! There needs to be a change and he is the only one willing to thumb his nose at the party. There are so many greedy people in the party that don't want to loose there power, so they hate Dean.

[Rose Siding]

85. You're exactly right, Chester

Welcome to DU :hi:

(it wasn't always like this)

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

80. Because your $$$ is like Popeye's spinach?

[w4rma]

83. Friedrich Nietzsche: That which does not kill me makes me stronger. (n/t)