I absolutely can't stand Obama.

[Justice Is Comin]

The more I see him, the more I know this is a disaster in a disguise. I said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't trust him from my front door to my mailbox. Wouldn't buy a used car from him.

Everything from his facial expressions to body language, with his ever present rheumatoid arthritis curled finger to his attempts to sound like a fire breathing Baptist preacher Jimmy Swaggert at his campaign stops, do more every time to turn my stomach.

He cannot accept any responsibility for anything he did politically or otherwise that makes him look the least wrong without trying to vanilla coat it with layers and layers of circular bullshit. 151 votes of present was because he thought the bill needed more work? :rofl: I believe that calls for a NO vote Barack, not a "present." That even blew John Edwards mind.

The wagons of ammunition are being loaded by the slugs who have the Oval Office now even as I type, in the the hopes that nothing derails his nomination as our Democratic Party choice. They are counting on the sheep with rose colored glasses in all the primaries to give them that gift.

People this is no modern day Martin Luther King reincarnate. This is an arrogant, egotistical, slippery, up-to-his neck in naivete of international affairs, self adoring Junior Senator that will get steam rolled by the corporate elite and their minions within six weeks of him taking oath of office. They will explain to this president trainee how Washington works and will continue to work. And he will serve the masters.

If I have to vote for Obama in November because he is the Democrat on our ticket, I'll have no choice but to do it. But then I'll have to go home and waterboard myself.

[saltpoint]

1. Jesus god.

[asdjrocky]

131. Ditto.

[avrdream]

135. Ditto to your ditto.

Wow.

[pstans]

2. Grab a pitcher and have fun

:beer:

[Skittles]

3. I don't see anything there

and I haven't from the start

[BeHereNow]

13. That would be because there isn't!

More "smoke and mirrors" brought to
you from the men behind the same fucking curtain.

BHN

[Skittles]

but look at how many folk are fawning all over him

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChiciB1]

45. FAWN Rhymes With YAWN!! n/t

[BeHereNow]

47. WTF? "American Idol Politics" is what the fuck...

The fucking market is crashing globally and
the audience is gushing with rapture over
their latest idol... who just happens to be
another puppet of the PTB, so what they say?
He makes great speeches!
(Never mind that it is just more Kabuki rhetoric
bought to you by the same masters who have
been manipulating the public into the comatose
audience that has yet to realize the fucking house is on FIRE
and the exits are locked)
People DO get the government they deserve.
Just tune in to DU and witness.

BHN

[Skittles]

61. it is terribly disturbing

must be a reason I don't fall for such crap because I detest "Amerian Idol". :puke:

[leftchick]

72. he makes great speeches?

could have fooled me. He makes me want to slit my wrists listening to him. No one says "UH" more than obamUH!

[Cant trust em]

180. His speech skills are good, his debating skills are bad

[Iris]

120. Lots of young people, I think.

And god knows why. I heard one guy call in to Air America and say he's voting for Obama because he (the caller, not Obama) is into hip-hop.


At any rate, if you don't follow politics much, Obama would probably seem like a breath of fresh air. The "latest" thing.... like tattoos.

[polichick]

151. "like tattoos" LOL nt

[Iris]

152. I'm glad you liked that!

I was hesitate about using it b/c I wasn't sure if my intended meaning would get across! But sounds like you "got it"!

[polichick]

154. Too funny!! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

203. Yeah, just like Japanese youth were all enamored of Jun'ichiro Koizumi, because he

had weird hair and liked rock music.

He turned out to be a right-wing deregulator and privatizer and Bush supporter.

Beware the rock star.

[Bonobo]

264. kankei nai to omou kedo...

[EFerrari]

25. There's levels and levels here. As a performer, tonight

I enjoyed his performance, especially because his past ones haven't been great in the debate venue. And because the Clintons have been actng like royalty or alternately, like thugs. On the level of watching political theater, he did very well tonight, imho.

And, of course, he's no progressive and yes, he's bought and paid for just like all the candidates that our whole media allows on stage.

[Duncan]

104. self delete - responded to wrong post

[Bonobo]

4. I'm glad it's such a well-reasoned hatred as opposed to a borderline sick obsession thing!

[bellasgrams]

26. It's not hate for me

Over the last few weeks the more I've watched him the less I like him. He uses race, relegion a lot and doesn't address the real issues. He just doesn't have it. He had his chance. I thought I liked him at first.

[niceypoo]

59. Oh, he would still be a good President...

It is his supporters that make him look bad. They attack and criticize instead of defending him on issues, which makes him look like an empty suit. I do fear that his presidency would be overshadowed by endless Sharpton news conferences everytime he is criticized.

I do think he did well in the debate tonight though, all of them did.

[Flatline]

67. Obama needs to quit hanging around gay bashers first...n/t

[Labors of Hercules]

76. You thought he did well? I thought he came across as rather...

ill-prepared, ill-informed and juvenile.

[juajen]

106. Nope, it's him.

NT

[krkaufman]

159. Funny thing is, the same could be said for ALL the Dem supporters around here ...

... from what I've seen.

Much of the OP, though, is just opinion and speculation.

On the "Obama is a guaranteed GE loss" front... If the primaries behind us mean anything, they indicate that Obama has a much better Independent/Republican pull than do Hillary or Edwards -- so Obama would actually be the MOST competitive candidate against Republicans. (Mileage may vary, of course, as data from more completed primaries & caucuses become available.)

[Laurab]

184. I'm with you. n/t

[shrdlu]

210. Exactly correct...

Of course I'm a geezer and have learned, painfully, not to fall in love with politicians.

[MADem]

5. If he's the nominee, buy stock in asthma drugs and "clean coal"

At least you can make some money off it for awhile...

[mitchtv]

92. also by stock in Nuclear power plants

He is desperately trying to obfiscate his pro nuclear stance

[sunonmars]

6. They are taking Obama apart on the ABC news comments blog

calling it a total disaster for Obama.

[kid a]

7. sounds like a personal problem - but you really have no real clue about obama

[Flatline]

68. Enlighten us about a man that hangs around ministers that hate gays....n/t

[George II]

143. Got anything specific or is this just a "drive by" attack?

[AlCzervik]

8. can i get you a cigarette?

[bear425]

9. You will not waterboard yourself.

You will alternative interrogation technique yourself. Get the lingo straight, man!

[AlCzervik]

11. ***snort****

[Hippo_Tron]

14. LMAO

[Marrah_G]

84. omfg........... you owe me a keyboard

:cough:cough:sputter:sputter:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. At least you won't see him eulogize reaguns anymore. He knows better now.

[Ronnie]

27. He sounded like a college freshman on that one.

A really bright college freshman, who just didn't know very much about Reagan. Or perhaps he was spouting someone else's ideas.

[The_Casual_Observer]

31. could have been an essay by a member of the "College Republicans"

for that matter.

[Skittles]

35. not good

Obama is well old enough to remember that evil bastard

[Iris]

168. no shit. We live with the consequences every day

[krkaufman]

161. That's one way of looking at it.

But another is that he was saying that Reagan changed the direction of the country, and neither Nixon nor Clinton did.

Nixon continued liberal policies... while Clinton continued Republican policies (e.g. NAFTA, putting the corporations ahead of the worker and decimating our economy in the long-term; balancing the budget on the backs of the worker, rather than rolling back some of the tax cuts for the wealthy; failure to reinstate the alternative energy initiatives of the Carter administration; Welfare reform; to name but a few Republican -leaning policy continuations of the Clinton admin.).

Obama was imprecise in what he said, perhaps, as I really doubt that he meant to praise Reagan policies.

[okasha]

194. Herbert Hoover changed the direction of the country, too.

Anybody want to give him a few posthumous pats on the head?

[krkaufman]

277. "Hoover changed the direction of the country"... Ummm.... no he didn't.

Hoover -- like Bush I, the Clintons, and Bush II -- allowed the country to continue in the direction that it had been previously moving, doing little to respond to the looming crises brought about by decades of pro-corporate policies.

FDR changed the direction of the country, aided by people clamoring for real economic and social change, owing to the suffering brought-on by the Republican Great Depression.

[Jamastiene]

88. Ya think? n/t

[EFerrari]

15. Thank you for your input. Tonight I saw something else.

I saw a gifted politician in his element. Where you see arrogance, ego and naivete, I saw skill, confidence,intelligence and humor. A man who understood his audience was with him and who stretched and took good risks to put himself across. And, who did that with great success.

Your own glasses may need a good cleaning.

[Duncan]

107. Regarding your gif

Are you aware that last fall Obama said he thought impeachment efforts were a waste of time?

[sunonmars]

16. After reading thorugh the various news blogs and comments left

Obama lost a lot of support tonight. People thought he was a complete unmitigated disaster. some examples



That was devestating. Clinton and Edwards took Obama totally apart, he was like a little boy in the middle. That was nothing short of a campaign assassination tonight and Obama crumbled under the weight of it all. The "present" thing was a disaster for him and Hillary pointing out Rezko another disaster for him.

A total disaster, if thats how he handles an attack, god help us if he was the nominee. Hillary is one tough tough lady, she could wrestle a bear with one hand behind her back.

Posted by: Laurance | Jan 21, 2008 11:43:28 PM



Obama stumbled on answers tonight. Boy oh Boy was he getting really mixed up on the credit card vote. He did not even undertand when Edwards picked him out on it. He was ambiguous on his present vote, did not understand what universal health care is,could not answer about how he would fund the 50 million dollars and brushed aside Rezko. I will vote Hillary 08, but, clearly John Edwards was the winner today.He is smart and has substance. it will be worthwhile for Hillary to consider a seriuos role for Edwards.

Posted by: VPNNathan | Jan 21, 2008 11:07:36 PM



Dang OBAMA! You lost my vote tonight... When you commented that Hillary was on the Board at Walmart, you stated like it was a bad thing!! No no no, this sister is voting Edwards or Hillary. There is nothing wrong with a girl having a successful career!

Posted by: Latisha Johnson | Jan 21, 2008 11:11:58 PM

[Quixote1818]

23. The on the Board at Walmart comment was the best line of the night for Obama

Latisha Johnson seems to be out of touch with the Democratic party.

[Vektor]

75. She might be ignorant to the evil that Wal-Mart is, too.

A lot of folks have no idea how horrific and unethical their business practices are. They just think Wal-Mart's a great big store that they can get to easily in their mid-sized town to buy cheap crap.

They don't really understand what the corporation represents.

[DemCam]

124. No, we understand the bad practices of WalMart

We understand, especially those of us who can shop upscale, that WalMart has cheap goods from China and we also understand that
WalMart has brought merchandise that is affordable to all of us who don't choose to buy Starbucks or cannot afford to buy upscale.

We also understand that Hillary Clinton was a citizen of Arkansas, was First Lady in one of the poorest states in the union whose business
claim to fame and bread and butter for the state was none other that that ol' demon Walmart.

I get my snobby nose out of joint and lament the passing of small businesses in small towns and even larger ones because of this behomoth , but then I
have to get over myself and see what this company has done to provide goods and services to many of us who have always been the backbone of
the Democratic Party...that is until we run completely off because of that devil elitism that the Republican Party has been successful in hanging around our
necks. I do my share of complaining about the control of the big corporations, the loopholes created for them, but I will never utter that prissy
weaned-on-lemon epitaph "corporatist" to damn one of our candidates...any of them whether I like them or not. That puts us way out of step with the majority
of voter in this country and does nothing for our candidates who are saddled with an election system that requires $16,000,000 to run a single ad in every
state on Super Tuesday.

I just happy we have candidates who can raise money and compete.

[RaleighNCDUer]

157. Based on your reply, no, you DON'T understand.

People have to look to WalMart's cheap goods because the outsourcing that it and its corporate cousins depend on have devastated the American working class - the manufactured items that WalMart buys from Indonesian sweatshops used to be produced here, where people were well paid for their labor, which enabled them to shop wherever they wanted. Now, all they can afford is WalMart.

If you really understood it, you could never defend it.

[rurallib]

222. I am late but Iw will defend Hillary a bit here

back in the '80s when she was on the board Sam Walton was still alive. One of his cornerstone beliefs was that his wares be made in America, unless and only unless such products were not made in America.
For those of us over 25 we can still remember the pride that Walmart took in selling American made. And while the workers were not well paid, they were pretty much on a par with competition. They also had an employee stock purchase program that made some fairly comfortable. I believe they were the only retailer that did.
Then Sam died. Don't know if Hillary was still on the board. Even if she were, I doubt she could have seen the changes coming. I doubt anybody did.
So hindsight is not always 20/20.

[efhmc]

240. You are right. During Sam's time, the motto and the drive was

"buy America" and it was real but that was long ago. I knew when one could no longer get the child's $.10 size popcorn that things were changing and not for the better.

[Andromeda]

262. Hillary was on the board until 1992.

.

[krkaufman]

164. The crux of our problems, nowadays.

People voting against their best interests -- with the ballot in the voting booth, and with their dollars at their local Mega*Mart.

[juajen]

118. Actually, Obama said she was a corporate lawyer for WalMart,

which was wrong, I believe. She was on the Board when Sam Walton was alive, and, IIRC, she made inroads for women by being on that board. Help, anyone? I know there is a big difference between being on the Board and being a corporate lawyer for a corporation. Also, at that time, Sam Walton was promoting American made products made by unions. It was after his death that things went to hell at WalMart. Additionally, WalMart was a huge asset to Arkansas and she was First Lady of Arkansas. I believe her tenure was limited in scope.

[RaleighNCDUer]

160. She was on the board because Walton was being pressured

politically to put a woman on the board. She was a lawyer for Rose Law firm, which represented Wal Mart in many cases - we don't know if she personally handled any of those cases because she won't release those records. Her being on the board did absolutely zilch for women's representation in the Wal Mart heirarchy - I believe it was one (1) more woman executive at the time she left that when she started.

The "Made in America" campaign was a fraud. It was started as an attack on K-Mart, which was the premier big box retailer at the time and got much of its product from overseas. But in '92 Walton got an award from the Chinese government for his support of Peoples Factories - why would he get an award if he wasn't using Chinese products?

Walton pressured US manufacturers to slash prices under the threat of going overseas for his goods. If the company did make it possible, by cutting employee benefits, eliminating health plans, etc., that companies products were put at the front of the store with the "Made in America" -- if they couldn't match the prices from overseas, Walton bought from overseas. The pre/post Walton death change is just a myth. There is nothing that WalMart does today that Walton himself didn't set in motion.

[krkaufman]

174. "It was after his (Sam's) death that things went to hell..."

Yes, that's probably true (based on recollection, without doing the research to nail-down the exact timeline). However, what enabled Wal*Mart to exploit the Chinese workforce to the disadvantage of the American worker was Bill Clinton's continued support of most-favored nation trading status for China, against his own Democratic Congressional leaders, which can also be laid at Hillary's feet if we're supposed to count her years as First Lady as "experience."

MFN for China is another example of what Obama was talking about when he pointed-out that Clinton did not change the direction of the country. This was yet another disastrous Republican economic policy that the Clintons jumped on.

On edit: p.s. To be fair, here's some detail on MFN from the above-linked article, indicating that China's MFN status was first initiated by Jimmy Carter, in 1979:

The U.S. granted most-favored-nation status to all its trading partners in 1934. But in 1951, during the early days of the Cold War, the policy was modified to require the president to suspend the MFN status of all Sino-Soviet bloc countries.

The Trade Act of 1974 allowed "nonmarket economy" countries to be granted a waiver and have their MFN status restored. Under the conditions of that act the waiver must be renewed every year. In 1979 President Jimmy Carter sent Congress a trade agreement with China that included a MFN waiver. Normal trade status was formally restored to China on Feb. 1, 1980.

Despite a strained relationship after China's 1989 crackdown of protestors in Tiananmen Square, China has been granted a MFN waiver every year since 1980.

Unfortunately, much like with Saudi Arabia and our other oil dealers, we may be in too deep with the Chinese now to be able to extricate ourselves from the relationship.

[oasis]

268. Thank you. A well informed DU community is a credit to the Democratic Party. (eom)

[katty]

156. I think Obama weakened himself-he just got too touchy about

Hillary's remarks - she gets crazy too, but she is so seasoned and used to the slings and arrows of politics she recovers rather quickly-she has a thick political skin. Obama clearly knows he is good looking, charming and has a great smile-and he uses his magnetism to the max. He is idealistic, has a vision and some good ideas, but he needs to inject more substance, 'deal points' into his argument/position. Obama and Hillary push each others buttons very well-they need to get beyond that.

[Djinn]

17. so don't vote for him

DU is being buried under the avalanche of people who think the world should give a shit about their opinions.

There's never any analysis just stream of consciousness rambling about your personal take on a particular candidate.

Do the primaries effect American IQ's or something?

[Bluebear]

21. So why is the opinion you just stated something we should give a shit more about

Just sayin'.

[George II]

165. Djinn didn't START the thread, he/she is just posting in it.

Unfortunately the OP had nothing but insults and criticism. I was taught decades ago that if one doesn't like something that person should articulate specifically what is disliked ("body language" - HAHA!!) and then put forth an alternative. The OP didn't do either!

[krkaufman]

175. Re: "Do the primaries effect American IQ's or something?"

Dunno. But they *do* seem to reveal everyone's EQs.

[wisteria]

18. A good President can surround himself with good advisor's.

Senator Obama will listen to others opinions. He seems willing to see more than just his side of things.

[bellasgrams]

32. RE: Pres. can surround himself with good advisors'? We don't

need anymore Presidents that need an uncle Dick.

[krkaufman]

179. "uncle Dick" is not an example of a "good advisor"

The counterpoint to what the #18-repliers are all proclaiming is that the President should be all-knowing and not require advisors on any issue. Which is nonsense.

The problem with George Bush is not that he is an intelligent, knowledgable person, with good judgement and an eager ear for wise, prudent advise. The problem with W is that he's a vindictive, insecure, incurious, dullard incapable of reason, and wholly dependent on the instruction of his advisors.

Comparing Obama to W, or even to Reagan, on the basis of his emphasizing the value of quality advisors is simplistic and misleading. I think Obama's presidency of Harvard Law Review puts him in a significantly higher class of thinker than either.

[Skittles]

62. OMG STOP STOP STOP PLEASE F***ING STOP!

in Texas that is all I heard when they were running that twit GWB for president: HE'LL HAVE GREAT ADVISORS!!! IT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

[krkaufman]

183. Agreed. Great advisors is NOT enough. You also need intelligence...

... knowledge, good judgement, and flexibility, among other things. Unfortunately, Bush carried an empty toolbox, and was further hampered by having unbelievably shi**y, partisan, idealogically-driven zealots as advisors.

Let's not pretend that Obama (or any of the Democratic candidates) is anything like Bush.

p.s. I just stumbled across an interesting article on Obama, should one care to review some of his history.

[efhmc]

249. So right. I still remember some lamebrain rich white guy (oil)

giving me the exact same answer when I questioned him about his guy. He(gwb) was going to have all these wonderful advisers (You know, rove, cheney, rumsfeld, etc.) to help him and to make his illicit presidency great. Well, as a retired oil exec., it probably has been and will continue to be great for him.

[boston bean]

121. BUSH said the same exact thing, that aint gonna fly.

[krkaufman]

178. And, ideally, with FRESH advisors, rather than a rehash of the Clinton years.

We need a new direction in the country, not a return to the Republican-lite policies of the Clintons.

[pollo poco]

181. Good Advisors?

The company Obama keeps scares the crap out of me. Homophobic evangelicals. Black or white, makes no difference to me. I don't want superstitious people and their hateful mumbo-jumbo. Also- what is "his side of things?" He's not telling. Reagan a great president? He just started what Bush inherited. So, he's got a problem with Wal-Mart but thinks Reagan is OK? Wal Mart is the highest manifestation of Reagan's America.

When Obama first showed up with his speech at the dem convention in 04, I thought he was a breath of fresh air. I thought- here's the next generation-my generation! I figured he would develop into a great candidate for 2012 or 16. But he's not at all ready.

I began as an undecided voter. The only thing I have decided is that I don't trust Obama. He wants to be everything to everyone, but he lost me when he started giving his ear to preachers. By putting Christianity front and center (so as not to be called a muslim, I assume)he has lost me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

205. I heard someone give that as his reason for voting for Bush in 2000

"Gore is so smart that he won't listen to anyone else," this person said. "Bush knows he isn't smart, so he'll surround himself with good advisers."

Uh, yeah.

I'd rather have a president who knows enough to make his own decisions, thank you.

[goodgd_yall]

19. Whoa

I support Hillary, but I don't agree with your characterization of Obama. Rather over-the-top, I think.

[calmblueocean]

20. So the idea of change is naive? Defeating corruption is naive?

Color me naive then. All change is made by unreasonable people. If they were reasonable, they would've been talked out of it.

[saracat]

24. Edwards is the only candidate that has been talking seriously about defeating "corruption". Obama

wants to "negotiate it away".

[calmblueocean]

28. I think you mistake strong words for political strength.

There's a lot I like about Edwards, but the populist firebrand approach is not electable, in my and many other people's opinions. I don't think he would find it successful even if he was elected president, because the president doesn't make the bills, Congress does, and when you polarize people, you make it difficult for them to work with you without losing face. I think Obama shows a more mature understanding of that, and also how to put pressure on your opponents without demonizing them. You should look into Obama's transparency initiatives, if you haven't already. What he wants to do is expose the negotiating process to sunlight, where it becomes much harder to defend the indefensible.

[MagsDem]

51. worked pretty damn good for FDR

[saracat]

55. Yeah well none of this reasoning has worked for Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid

Didn't work for Clinton either , or Hillary. How bout that Healthcare Bill?

[calmblueocean]

56. I don't think Pelosi or Page are on the same page as Obama

Obama is changing the rules of the game, they're just bad at it.

[saracat]

63. Sorry.he isn't changing anything.He wants to"'make nice" Reach across the aisle"

And he has "promised' that the corporations and insurance companies will have a "seat at the table".He is starting from a weak position. How is any of that "change"? He wants to negotiate with the GOP. We need an ass kicker, not a negotiator. FDR he ain't.

[George II]

167. And I don't think Pelosi or Reed are the subject of this discussion

[Iris]

171. so, what exactly is Obama hoping to change?

I never can get that straight.

[krkaufman]

186. Re: "you make it difficult for them to work with you without losing face"

That might be the best case for why Obama should be the nominee. Edwards may be too confrontational to enable members of the other party to compromise, unless his electioneering can win him veto/filibuster-proof working majorities; and Hillary *Clinton* will be too politically radioactive for any Republican to risk working with.

Obama's ability to pull-in Independents and even Republicans in the early primaries/caucuses show that those not on the Left are willing to work with him, and will translate well into the general election.

[liberalhistorian]

37. And Edwards, unfortunately, thanks mainly to the

media, has no chance.

[Skittles]

33. hte "idea of change" is simply not enough

there has be some SUBSTANCE there

[ellisonz]

65. Not that you will bother to dig into it...

For what it's worth: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

[BlackVelvet04]

73. What's naive is ideas like

thinking you don't need a mandate for insurance. If he thinks there aren't many people who will opt out of buying medical insurance and using the system then he's very, very, very naive.

[BlueIris]

22. While I can't support him for other reasons, I agree that his personality, which is the basis

of his campaign, leaves a lot to be desired.

[mondo joe]

29. One Preacher in office was enough for me for a whole lifetime. NT

[vanboggie]

30. Me either, and I've tried

If John Edwards doesn't get the nomination, I'll have no choice but to write in his name. Then I'm going to try to forget about politics and put my head in the sand.

[dajoki]

133. I continue to support John Edwards...

and will, all the way to the convention, I am still hoping that he will be our nominee. However if he is not, I will have to give all my support to the winner, because that is the only chance we have of beating the turds on the other side. I'm not about to give up though, just made another donation today. I just recieved a new email from the campaign, and as long as they are still speaking this way, it gives me hope.

Dear Friend,

"I just finished talking with John -- and he's committed to going all the way to the Democratic Convention, taking the nomination and then on to the White House."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4157027&mesg_id=4157027

[liberalhistorian]

34. You could write this exact same piece about

Hillary. Except, in her case, ALL of it would actually be true and justified. Talk about a walking fucking disaster and master bullshitter. :eyes:

[jgraz]

36. Right there with ya

If Edwards were to drop out before the CA primary, I'd actually have a hard time deciding between Obama and Hillary at this point. They're tied for last place on my list, but Obama may end up edging Hillary for the bottom slot.

[Justice Is Comin]

38. I can only hope that tonight

was finally the night that showed what a stellar president Mr. Edwards would be. And the difference of what an Obama would be. I don't know what more it could possibly take.

If I had three wishes, I would use all three of them just to make that hope come true.

Please let me wake up tomorrow and find John Edwards leading the polls.

[SoxFan]

39. Only one explanation for this thread

[stillcool]

40. Funny. To me he is very...

personable, intelligent, articulate, and well schooled in the art of politics. John Edwards shares those traits. I would vote for either one in a heart beat. Hillary, on the other hand, is just nasty. She seems to be nurturing some kind of character trait of distorting the truth, and being some kind of attack dog. Maybe just the mask slipping.

[ProSense]

41. Obama

responds

[never_get_over_it]

42. Well I feel much the same about Hillary

and have for a long time she lost me for good when she said this:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1016-20.htm

"My bottom line is that I don't want their sons to die in vain... I don't believe it's smart to set a date for withdrawal... I don't think it's the right time to withdraw."

This is almost EXACTLY what the freak in chief had said a few days before

Barack has been losing me for a while

His not voting on Kyl Lieberman - my feeling that had he been in the Senate at the time he would have also voted yes on IWR and his Regan comments

"many had been drawn initially by Obama's early opposition to the invasion." But "when his speech at the antiwar rally in 2002 was quietly removed from his campaign Web site," the magazine reported, "activists found that to be an ominous sign"--one that foreshadowed Obama's first months in the Senate. Indeed, through much of 2005, Obama said little about Iraq, displaying a noticeable deference to Washington's bipartisan foreign policy elite, which had pushed the war. One of Obama's first votes as a senator was to confirm Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State despite her integral role in pushing the now-debunked propaganda about Iraq's WMD.

but the straw that broke my Obama back is: calling one of my heroes Paul Wellstone a gadfly GOOD GOD

Obama's deference to these boundaries was hammered home to me when our discussion touched on the late Senator Paul Wellstone. Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent." He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama's support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party. And I understood why Beltway publications and think tanks have heaped praise on Obama and want him to run for President. It's because he has shown a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment.

Both the Obama quotes came from: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/sirota

I'm going to have a hard time voting for either one of them....but I will

[chimpymustgo]

100. Obama called Paul Wellstone a "gadfly"? Please. Stop. Don't tell me any more.

<snip>

Obama's deference to these boundaries was hammered home to me when our discussion touched on the late Senator Paul Wellstone. Obama said the progressive champion was "magnificent." He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama's support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party. And I understood why Beltway publications and think tanks have heaped praise on Obama and want him to run for President. It's because he has shown a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment.

<snip>

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060626/sirota

******

I really liked Obama. But his admiration for Reagan and Republican ideas...the no-show on Kyl/Lieberman...the "present" votes...the cult worship...I'm getting really turned off. I thought he had a couple of good lines last night, but overall - pretty shaky. I don't think he's ready for prime time. I might still go for an Edwards/Obama ticket.

[Marie26]

110. The nerve!

:mad: Wellstone is my hero too.

"He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a "gadfly," in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama's support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party."

Guess that explains why hr opposed setting caps for the credit card companies. I will be seriously worried if he gets the nomination - IMO he's a Republican wanna-be.

[efhmc]

254. I did not know this. That put the butter on his toast for me.

[rucognizant]

199. Oh I missed that one!

I agree with the premise of this discussion..................the christian thing, the reagan thing, the LACK of energy!
He's too languid! To verbose! He'll get mowed down real fast! I almost tilted for Clinton in the debate the other noight for her bulldoggedness, even tho I have NOT wanted her from the beginning. If Edwards is too confrontational, what is she?
Dr. Dean made it SO SIMPLE & SO CLEAR! And look what happened to him!
Edwards has been a successful trial lawyer, he's fast on the tongue! That will be needed,badly to clean up this mess!
Don't ever lose sight of the fact that MSM is trying to SELL HIM, AND HER! ( O & C)

[October]

238. Good points

I also think Obama is snarky. He reminds me of GWB with a brain. Condescending...

I've TRIED to like him. I just feel something's not right.

[Hobarticus]

250. This post is why I come to DU....

Becasue I'm too lazy to do my own homework.

This is truly disappointing.

[George II]

274. So you'll never find out that the quote is either out of context or simply never happened

[George II]

273. There is no substantiation to that comment

It is only found in a single OPINION column by an essayist with a clear agenda.

I seriously doubt that the comment was ever made.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flatline]

69. It's not a race issue gawd.....n/t

[opihimoimoi]

44. Obama still wet behind the ears....they will eat him alive in DC

[Jawja]

137. Obama won't make it to D.C.

the Rethug attack machine will tear him to bits. That's why the media has pushed him so hard in this race - to knock out Hillary so that the Rethug nominee doesn't have to run against the Clintons. The Clintons are battle-scared and tough and they know very well what the Rethugs are capable of doing. Rethugs and their Corporate Media do not want to run against the Clintons in the general election.

[Hutzpa]

46. This is a flamebait, need locking. n/t

[Elspeth]

48. Locking.

Oh wait, I can't do that.

Crap.

[tandem5]

49. we need super lock power now! Ah too much power rangers... nt

[Elspeth]

50. I'd settle for a drunken mod

:)

[snappyturtle]

155. I agree with you...this is flamebait and too divisive to the Democratic

party to be tolerated. You do us all harm in writing your opinions in the spirit you presented.

[cloudythescribbler]

221. Don't you know that anti-Obama PURE FLAMES are AOK on DU???

Just wake up or something?

[snappyturtle]

269. To be perfectly honest, I did not know it was OK. I haven't been

on DU as much as I used to be because of the flamebaiting in general. Thanks for the heads up!

[Justice Is Comin]

52. This is my long evolving opinion

Like noses. Most people have one of those too.

You notice, I didn't sign your name.

I just hope I don't have to be proven right. This is Pelosi in wing tips.

[Hawkowl]

53. Couldn't have said it better

Watched O in Chicago back in the early 90's. Nothing different except his head is 10x as large.

[flordehinojos]

54. thank you ... i feel exactly the same way you do ...

he not only is not able to accept responsibility for anything he did politically, he, instead of admitting fault, or guilt, or failure, turns around and puts down the person pointing to the fact ...
a great manipulation found amongst drug users, alcoholics, and other characters ... hillary at least is able to say, "yes, I am sorry I ... but let me tell you why i did..." and with that she assumes responsibility for her actions ... something which must have rubbed him the wrong way when he said something at least i don't go around saying "i am sorry all the time" or words to that effect: again taking the spot light off of him ... and giving none-thinking people the illusion that he is the brave honest guy who might lead them from despair to hope, from darkness to light, when, o, little do they know ... that he is really on obam's side and only on obama's side. he is so much like bush it is pathetic that people can't see, just like they couldn't see bush's lies.

[femrap]

57. I hope he's not the nominee...

I don't trust him either.

[deacon]

58. I can't stand him or hillary anymore. n/t

[George II]

149. At this rate you'll wind up voting for Huckabee

[Nailzberg]

60. Actually, you do vote present when a bill needs work.

Bills with overwhelming support usually zip through the committee and hit the floor for a vote. Present votes are used to indicate potential problems with a bill. This is kinda unique to IL, because of the option of present votes and the Governor's power of Amendatory Veto.

Voting present is a method to indicate to the governor that there may be a constitutional issue or conflict with existing law that you believe should be resolved so that the bill is not overturned later.

The amendatory veto does not veto a bill down. The governor uses his Amendatory veto to make the necessary changes while signing the bill into law.

Our legislative process in the Illinois General Assembly operates differently than the US Congress.

[noamnety]

86. This is inconsistent with previous explanations

particular the ones related to abortion rights comes to mind. We've been told in the past that his votes were sometimes done for politically safe reasons, rather than because of a technicality with the way the bill was written.

“To provide cover for other Democrats who were shaky on the issue in an effort to convince them not to vote `yes,’” Sutherland said. “The idea is to recruit a group to vote `present’ that includes legislators who are clearly right with the issue.”

Sutherland said this tactic makes the “present” vote look less like a hedge or a cop-out and more like a constitutional concern or other high-minded qualm.

She pointed to the Parental Notice of Abortion Act of 2001, a bill requiring that an adult family member be notified 48 hours in advance when a minor seeks an abortion. "

http://archpundit.com/blog/2004/03/09/present-and-accounted-for/

I don't necessarily have a problem with the votes - I'd have to see the circumstances around each of them. I do have a problem with someone who won't come out and defend abortion rights without worrying about how it's going to affect his political career (emphasis on that pronoun "his).

I definitely have a problem with him misrepresenting the reason for all those votes as "technical problems with the way they were written" when that doesn't appear to match reality.

[Nailzberg]

123. That's how the abortion rights smokescreen worked, because it wasn't expected

What I explained above is the standard usage for present votes in the IL General Assembly. To indicate not problems with a bill that is otherwise supported.

The abortion votes were a different circumstance. It was a creative measure taken at a time when Pate Phillips and the Republican majority were intent on forcing dems into suicidal votes. With the normal usage of present votes understood among IL politicians, Senate Dems, were able to vote down a series of anti-choice bills using a combination of presents and nos, allowing their more vulnerable members to avoid taking that vote back to their districts. For that to work, there had to be some safe people voting along side the vulnerable, to obscure what was really happening.

Perhaps it is different from what you have heard before because I'm not talking from the Obama Fact Check site, which is accurate but limited in it's explanation. My explanation is based on my working in Springfield.

[Faux pas]

64. Underneath that oh-so-polished veneer is a religious zealot. The

look of 'rapture' he gets on his face scares the crap out of me. Be very afraid of HIM and HRC.

[ellisonz]

66. Instead of waterboarding yourself...

How about you just douse yourself in



And strike a match.

[salin]

70. Both of these threads (this and the copy cat it inspired) are ridiculous.

Bah!

[LeftishBrit]

71. I absolutely can't stant Bush, McCain, Romney, Huckabee or Giuliani!

Any Dem candidate looks great by comparison!

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. I find him to be very charming, he has a great smile and a wonderful sense of humor, BUT

his come together and sing Kumbaya with repukes/let's take a knife to a gunfight rhetoric makes me want to PUKE :puke: when we're dealing with CRIMINALS HERE! These people are deadly and he wants to come together and make nice...play patty-cake? I DON'T THINK SO! And the Reagan clap-trap/republicans had ideas bullshit just finished him for me. You DO NOT play nice with people like republican CRIMINALS. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, Barack!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

81. I feel exactly as you do. The Repukes are criminal and to join together

with them is total bullshit to me. Didn't Clinton do that and we got NAFTA and morally criminal welfare reform? BCCI and Iran-Contra both slipped into the great black hole. As you said, Enough is Enough!

[earth mom]

77. Yup Obama WILL serve his corporate masters. Even Martin Luther King III can see that.

:puke:

[LSK]

78. BASELESS FLAMEBAIT WITH 38 RECS

:wtf:

[cloudythescribbler]

223. The answer to WTF? is there are swarms of Obama-bashers on DU -- now what 's their TOTAL agenda?

[George II]

275. Note that the OP has made only THREE of the subsequent 270 comments in this discussion

None of any substance. As noted, the post is only flame bait with ZERO content or insight.

Rush Limbaugh couldn't have done any better.

[Phoonzang]

79. I believe you're looking for the GD: Politcs forum. n/t

[bpeale]

80. i just totally agree with you. obama makes me sick.

a grown-up takes responsibility for their mistakes. obama can't.

hubby & i were talking about this last night. present? he should have voted NO. did anyone else catch that he sponsored some of those bills & then couldn't vote YES or NO on them? he's a coward ala GWB. he won't fight for anyone else.

[springhill]

82. I agree with everything you just said..........

I can't stand him either. And if a REPUBLICAN candidate had a homophobe acitively helping his campaign we would be calling him or her out for it, but not Obama. I guess he walks on water.

[balantz]

83. I would gladly support Obama

if there was anything there to support.

[BooScout]

85. But, but, but..........

He makes me feel so good about everything. I have 'hope' now. You must be a racist if you are pointing out that all he ever votes is 'present'. You also must be a racist to point out his shady dealings. It's not fair!:patriot: You are obviously one of those evil Clinton or Edwards supporters and are just jealous.:evilgrin:

[mitchtv]

98. I have hope too

Hope that he won't give away the store in his mad rush to compromise with scumbag religionists and republicans

[jillan]

87. deleted

[cgrindley]

89. Who cares what you think?

Really.

Or was that supposed to be cogent and interesting criticism of Obama's political opinions and record? Or were you simply flapping your blathering cakehole? And beware discussions of MLK. He was a human being, not a saint. He did some good things, but he was a flawed figure, and the civil rights movement involved a great many people including a lot of mainstream politicians who had the option to ignore King but who did not. If the American public in general had not been ready for the civil rights movement, it wouldn't have happened regardless of what King said.

[KamaAina]

90. Here's a thought. Maybe instead of running down a Dem candidate,

you could play up the virtues of Hillary your preferred candidate instead?

Might be worth a try.

[mnhtnbb]

91. The more I see the less I like him...and I started out not thrilled.

[book_worm]

93. I'm the opposite the more I see of Hillary and Bill the more I'm not liking their tactics.

[Fabio]

94. Tell us how you really feel!!!!

[Marie26]

95. Me either

It's sort of reassuring to know other people feel the same way - I kept thinking that I should find him as inspiring & hopeful as everyone else seems to. But... I don't like him & I don't trust him.

[Popol Vuh]

96. Hmmm

"The more I see him, the more I know this is a disaster in a disguise."

Which candidate has received by far the most money from the Military Industrial Complex?

[jonnyblitz]

97. neither can I. I am 'Anybody but Obama". nt

[readmoreoften]

140. Me too. /nt

[Cha]

99. Whatever..so healthy for you to

get your personal hate out. I'm so happy for you that you don't get my candidate but you're going to vote for him in November..that's a nice touch.

[lanlady]

101. I don't trust him

nor would I vote for any Dem caught genuflecting to Saint Ronnie. End of story.

[William769]

102. You just went up 100% on my likable list!

Keep up the great work! K&R!

[Bitwit1234]

103. The republicans will take the election if this person

by his hook and crook gets the candidate nod. They are hoping he does. With Hillary or Edwards they wouldn't stand a chance.

[demo dutch]

105. I so agree! I just don't get all the fuzz!

[ronnykmarshall]

108. How DAAAAAAARE YOU!!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

111. Come on, now, Ronny

You know we only catch the vapors and run the whole "How DAAAAAAARE YOU!!!!!!" routine like that when people criticize Maya Angelou's poetry.

:rofl:

[ProSense]

109. Here's a really good

thread.

[Beacool]

112. I don't feel as strongly about Obama as you do,

but I don't trust him at all. To me, he's as slick as an oil spill and as smooth as a used car salesman. He's a great speaker, but I keep waiting for substance and only see the meringue but not the pie.

I value people who pay their dues and work hard at a job before expecting to be promoted. Since when does a guy who was in the state senate a mere 3 years ago is qualified to become president of the USA???????

I also value loyalty and dislike backstabbers. Hillary campaigned for him , raised funds for him and he sought her advice in his first year as senator, just as she did with Robert Byrd when she was a newbie. So, what does Obama do when he had been in the senate less than 2 full years? The arrogant man decides that he's ready to be president!!!!

This past summer he compared his age to that of JFK and Bill Clinton when they decided to run for office, omitting to say that JFK had been in Congress for 14 years before he ran for president and Bill Clinton had been a governor for 12 years and was in 1992 the senior sitting governor of the country. Obama? Oh yeah, he just completed the first half of his first term in the senate.

Give me a break!!!!!!!!

[mistertrickster]

130. You'd have to eliminate Edwards and Hillary by the same criteria.

Neither one were in the Senate anywhere near 14 years.

[CyberPieHole]

113. Great post...kick and recommend. n/t

[awaysidetraveler]

114. You know it's Hillary that's taking money from Rupert Murdoch (Fox News), not Obama.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

115. I've never been able to see him as anything other than

a pre-packaged product being peddled to the American public. They pushed him out there too soon, though. He inspires no confidence in me; he's just too green and I don't want 'advisors' running this country again.

[mistertrickster]

116. Just replace "JFK" everytime you used the name Obama. He also

was a "junior senator" with no national experience.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

119. see post # 112

[mistertrickster]

128. So . . . Edwards is a lot more experienced because he was a Senator for three more years?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

138. How'd we go from JFK to Edwards?

I was responding to your JFK reference.

[mistertrickster]

267. Good point. I stand corrected on the JFK reference. I should have said

"substitute the name of John Edwards every time you say Barack Obama."

[awaysidetraveler]

117. And he will serve the masters? You know, that's just racist.

Which sounds like your real problem to me.

[ihelpu2see]

122. Then who would you prefer?? Hillary I can't stand, she always needs to

co-op anything that gets a good response from either Obama or Edwards. She needs to get the last word all the time. And as far as the establishment in the party and Former Prez. Bill Clinton, they need to step back or they can kiss a dem. in the white house in 09 good-by. I think Obama has better consultants than Hillary and Edwards, I have met 2 so far and have been impressed. I like Edwards populist ideas but his message is just not getting through. All in all Obama has a better chance in the GE than Hillary.

[Jawja]

125. Obama lost me for good last

night with his stance that the Democratic Party should reach out to evangelical christians. I have nothing against evangelicals or christians, until they want to legislate how I live.

But his suggestion smacked of "let's do as the GOP does and inject religion into our politics." I favor the Democratic Party because the Democrats are NOT in bed with the nutball fundies, who have had a heavy hand the wrong path America is on today. I can't help but roll my eyes when I hear a Democratic candidate make the suggestion that we open our big tent to those who prefer a very small tent, and would do nothing but stink it up with ignorance and intolerance. And I've felt that way ANYTIME when someone in the Democratic Party feels the necessity to inject faith into the conversation because that's what getting Repug votes requires.

[Jamastiene]

126. I couldn't agree more.

How can he bring up Reagan at a time like this then run suck up to every homophobe he can find? What an asshole.

[1corona4u]

127. I hear ya....

except I will NOT vote for him.

[Arugula Latte]

129. So you think Hillary will be beter?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[vincenzoesq]

132. Funny you should say that

You have perfectly described my reaction to Hil. I've seen a lot of politicians in my six and a half decades, and
I believe Obama is the real deal. If we elect another Clinton, we deserve whatever we get--just as we did with Bush.

[DemExpat]

134. To slightly less degree I feel the same way.

DemEx

[okoboji]

136. but... but .... he gave a speech in 2002....n/t

n/t

[zulchzulu]

139. Thanks for admitting you're a half-wit

Good job. Now walk away from the crack pipe. No, it's not good for you.

[George II]

141. READ THE RULES OF THE FORUM!!!!

[cloudythescribbler]

228. There's an unwritten rule that the wildest flaming of Obama is OK

[Colobo]

142. President Obama, Jan 09.

Deal with it.

[vincenzoesq]

145. Katzenkavalier writes: President Obama, 09. Deal with it!

I hope America is smart enough to make it happen!

[cloudythescribbler]

230. I hope so too. President McCain???? War in Iraq now & forever ...

:scared:

[Dem MS]

147. Do all of you people not understand?

We are all Democrat's here, and the most important thing right now is to regain control of the White House. Living in a place that is largely Republican, I can honestly say that Hillary Clinton is the best thing for Republicans come November. People who are only mildly interested in politics will go register to vote for anybody but her. Everybody can grill each other about issues and policy, but when it comes down to it we want the person who can win the White House. People complain about Obama for saying he will reach out to evangelical christians and foreign leaders, but do any of us think that Republicans will do any different?? We can all fight over this, analyze it, and ultimately harm both of them; but the point of this is to get back the White House, which Hillary has very little chance in doing.

[vincenzoesq]

150. Getting back our house

You have a strong point. The Clintons are widely regarded as untrustworthy, and not authentic--by Dems and Repubs.
As much as I would like to see a woman in the White House, she is NOT the woman I want there. Many repubs (the intelligent ones) I've talked to say they aren't crazy about any GOP candidates, and could cast a vote for Obama.

[Dem MS]

148. Do you people not understand????

We are all Democrat's here, and the most important thing right now is to regain control of the White House. Living in a place that is largely Republican, I can honestly say that Hillary Clinton is the best thing for Republicans come November. People who are only mildly interested in politics will go register to vote for anybody but her. Everybody can grill each other about issues and policy, but when it comes down to it we want the person who can win the White House. People complain about Obama for saying he will reach out to evangelical christians and foreign leaders, but do any of us think that Republicans will do any different?? We can all fight over this, analyze it, and ultimately harm both of them; but the point of this is to get back the White House, which Hillary has very little chance in doing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. I Respectfully Dissent

He's just another public servant/politician with all the good and bad that comes along with being one...

[natrat]

146. i dislike him simply because he is the msm darling and they are documented crooks

[MoonRiver]

153. I actually like him, but I don't entirely trust him.

Plus, I do not believe he can beat McCain in the general. OTOH, I believe Hillary can and will.

[madmunchie]

158. .0377 % "present" vote isn't that big of deal.....look at the structure of Illinois voting strategy

"He cannot accept any responsibility for anything he did politically or otherwise that makes him look the least wrong without trying to vanilla coat it with layers and layers of circular bullshit. 151 votes of present was because he thought the bill needed more work? I believe that calls for a NO vote Barrack, not a "present." That even blew John Edwards mind"

John Edwards???????? he wasn't around long enough to be able to even MAKE a fraction of those votes - and we know what disastrous judgments that he made during his minuscule public service term.

[jkurri]

218. john...

check your facts bud.... Edwards has his name on MORE legislation (federal) then obama.... and more important legislation then even Clinton... Don't believe me, research it so you know I am telling the truth. For a junior senator Edwards had some of the most impressive dealings and was actually party to some pretty decent law, besides naming buildings. Which is WAY more then Obama can say and surprisingly more then Clinton can claim even though she's been there much longer. Don't flame me if you dont know the facts!

[cboy4]

162. K&R

:thumbsup:

[rAVES]

163. Let me guess.. Hillary?

and before you ask : Correct, I didn't read your OP.

[Alexander]

166. Your hatred is noted.

[ClericJohnPreston]

173. Does that mean the OP

is on double secret probation????:wow:

[Alexander]

193. It means the OP has an irrational hatred of Barack Obama.

[anamandujano]

266. To be precise, the OP has a rational can't stand,

and I'm on board with it.

[krabigirl]

169. I agree, to a point. He is likeable, I am just not into the hype around him.

His arrogance is a huge turn-off for me, though. I will vote for him if he is the nominee, nose held, because, well, I just will.

[AtomicKitten]

170. And I will not reward anyone that voted YES on the IWR with my vote.

[Tennessee Gal]

172. Don't like Obama in this primary season.

He is not ready.

He should have waited.

His soaring rhetorical abilities are not enough this year.

[ClericJohnPreston]

176. But tell us how you really feel!

I don't like him either. All form, no substance. An air sandwich. An empty suit. A featherweight marshmallow. I could go on, but you get the point.

EDWARDS, for substance!

[BenDavid]

177. you nailed it right.....after s.c. obama's star will begin slowly

setting and he will be bye bye.......

[Joe Chi Minh]

182. The problem is that in both our countries, there are a lot of people who can't

distinguish between soap operas and the real world. Our tabloids now report on developments in soaps as if they were bona fide news/current affair reports. The mere fact that Obama's supporters won't answer questions about his policies, but regard such questions as character attacks on him, is scary beyond words.

How can there ever be any hope for even a modicum of political maturity from our respective electorates? There is something very unworldly about us. I blame it on our Anglo-Saxon heritage. 10,000 Normans, who were actually Norsemen who'd only lived in France for 150 years, conquered and occupied a country with 1,500,000 inhabitants. And in a certain sense, still do; a caste apart. Only the Yorkshire tykes wouldn't just lie down, after the occupation, and he devatasted the county, leaving them not a single hoe to cultivate the land.

[vincenzoesq]

187. Obama's policies

One more time---Obama's positions and policies are clearly defined. Check his website or read his book. http://www.barackobama.com But if you do, you'll probably vote for him--maybe even send him a check!;-)

[Joe Chi Minh]

272. Sorry, I can't find them. Any policy plank that begins with a pledge

to unify the children of this World with the children of Light is pie-in-the-sky, and you know it. Or should do. It was one of Christ's most fundamental Gospel precepts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

212. Yes, we both have "left" parties that continue the right-wing policies

of their conservative predecessors and broadcast media of steadily deteriorating quality.

[bushisdirt]

185. Yeah, I stopped trusting him after his campaign manager tried

the race card after NH. I really don't much like the guy either. A little arrogant.

[tranche]

198. Clinton surrogates got that going.

and I don't think he's getting that uppity

[tigervalentine]

188. I can see how you'd feel that way

now that the witch is back. The Clintons have this old Democrat disgusted. Not sure that anything can bring me to vote if I have to vote for her. And I'm a 60+ white female. Am I not supposed to belong to her?

[joeybee12]

189. Recommended--I agree although I would have said it perhaps a

little differently. I really think Obama as the nominee would be a disaster...he is very thin-skinned, and if he gets the nod, the Repukes will eat him alive.

[McCamy Taylor]

190. I am ok with him, but I know people who have this impression of him.

One in particular who is almost always right there at the head of the pack with any left wing trend or group-think. It has nothing to do with race, in her case (I know that for a fact) so when she says that Obama is mostly flash with little substance I know that a lot of other lefties feel the same way.

Obama is no better or worse than any of dozens of young Democratic politicians. All of them are better than the Republicans and if any one of them can get elected I say "More power to them." However, his two opponents are tougher and will stand up to the opposition more effectively.

My main objection to Obama is he does not have what it takes, imo, to battle the corporate media in the general election. Hillary and Edwards do. How is Obama going to keep his "I'm a nice guy" image when he is supposed to be out there sticking it to the Republican? He will be John Kerry all over again.

[cloud75]

191. right on,

[mmm413]

192. Me either

Obama hasn't even begun to earn his stripes. Democrats need to forget the primaries. We need to nominate someone who can kick the Republicans' collective butts. Clinton is such a polarizing figure that even I, a die hard Democrat, will have trouble voting for her. But I will. But she is so establishment. When Bill was president, SHE was the liberal. This triagulation BS is just that -- BS. Obama doesn't have the (dare I say?) balls to fight back. This is doing to be a dirty, nasty campaign. The GOPhers are terrified of losing the White House. The only one who can beat back the GOPhers is Edwards.

[Stop Cornyn]

195. I like Obama more than any of the Republican nominees, but I can't see where anyone sees any real

difference between Obama and Hillary on the issues. There are a few differences (most notably in Obama's considerably worse health care proposal) but they are two centrist peas in a moderate pod.

[protect our future]

196. Justice, your post strikes me as either *spin* or refusal to consider

that there might be another side to your *story.*

IMHO, each paragraph in your post contains false or distorted information.

I'll only address a couple of things here:

1) You say *the wagons of ammunition are being loaded by the slugs who have the Oval Office now ... in the hopes that nothing derails his nomination as our Democratic Party choice.*

However, it has recently been announced on at least one of the cable news channels that the White House feels very comfortable entrusting its legacy to Hillary Clinton. So it appears the Administration has given Hill, not Obama, a seal of approval.

2) As for Obama's votes of *present* rather than *yea* or *nay,* I do believe that was in the Illinois legislature. Not in the U.S. Senate. You see, things are different in Illinois. The Illinois state legislature operates a bit differently than does our U.S. Senate. You understand that? Okay, I will assume you do.

In the Illinois state legislature, a *present* vote indicates that he who has voted would like to vote *yea,* but for some reason he cannot. I assume one reason is that the bill needs more work, another that the bill contains something objectionable that should be taken out. So it seems that, in Illinois, you can vote *maybe.* Our U.S. Senate doesn't have that option. Perhaps it should.

Or so I've been told.

[TheDonkey]

197. Bring any rope along? Get a grip.

the party will be in shambles by 2009

[teleharmonium]

200. ignorant

Why don't you get the story on the present votes, instead of buying into the kool aid ?

Obama and many other Ill state senators voted "present" only on completely ridiculous Republican bills that were never going to pass anyway, as a way to deny them the campaign fodder they wanted.

The "present" votes were effectively no votes because bills require an affirmative to pass... they do not mean Obama was not doing his job or not taking a position... prior to the implementation of that plan, Obama was known as a solid "no" on all of those issues, and all of his votes were correctly understood in Illinois.

And where's the "layers and layers of circular bullshit" in him saying his real estate deal with that landlord guy was a stupid mistake ?

Looks like you're the one purveying the circular bullshit.

[Gloria]

201. I feel the same, although I won't vote for him...ever!

That bit in the Las Vegas Sun interview about "not being invested" in the stuff of the 60's-70's illustrated his lack of interest/knowledge of history...issues we are still concerned with!! His dismissal of Viet Nam as a reference point was mind-blowing.

Man, I've really been feeling complete and utter disgust since this interview. I knew he was just a sneaky, opportunistic pol before that...but this stuff is divisive as well as being the mark of a fool... ICK!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

202. I think that people want "change" so badly that they're willing to project their

desire onto someone who talks a good game and knows how to work a crowd but doesn't really say anything of substance.

If he has hidden depths and capabilities, he'd better show them soon.

(I voted for Jesse Jackson in the 1988 primary, and although he's much less polished than Obama, you get a sense from him of core values and a willingness to speak up for them in specific terms.)

[Gloria]

213. I know what you mean, Lydia Leftcoast....Jesse was reality based

[bagimin]

204. Just who in the flying fuck are you?

[calteacherguy]

206. That must be why Kerry and so many other Democratic leaders have endorsed him. nt

[LynneSin]

207. Yes thank goodness - when we could have Huckabee or Ghouliani or McCain

Ugh!

I swear this group eats its own. Is Obama the best democrat - I don't have a fricking clue. But I do know this - he's better than anything the republicans have to offer.

Considering what we've had this past 7+ years this is only a very very very very large step upwards!

[Evergreen Emerald]

208. I feel exactly the same way.

He is not presidential material

[digidigido]

209. I absolutely can't stand Hilary, and I wouldn't trust Edwards as far as I could throw him

Hilary is polarizing and old politics. Edwards talks a good game, but his voting record
could not have been worse. I sent money to his campaign a few months ago, and I
have changed my mind. Obama is smart. he is articulate, he appeals to youth and unity.
He speaks to much of what is good in America, and he inspires. This country
is in need of a serious change by someone who is capable of pulling it off. Hilary won't
do it, she's too entrenched, she thinks change means changing a few players not the
rules of the game itself. Edwards talks about it, but he was fooled to make the wrong
vote on every important issue when he was in the senate. I like what he says, but I don't
belieive he's capable of pulling it off. Obama has been on the right side of every important
vote. He speaks in a way that encourges people to listen and unite. I think it's time to
get away from politics as usual and I think he's the ony one who will do that.
Micheal Moore wrote a book called Stupid White Men, maybe it's time for a smart black man.

[alllyingwhores]

234. He certainly has been on the right side of "present"

[rodeodance]

211. Once I get beyond his fantastic oratory skill--he seems just so --well, the

man next doorish.

[protect our future]

216. In the debates he works out complex concepts in very few seconds (that's when

you see him pause in his speech or hesitate before continuing). Amazing, the way he can immediately articulate whatever conclusion his thought processes brought him to.

[mtnsnake]

214. That is one hell of a fine rant!

Well done!! :thumbsup:

[indimuse]

215. pretty much everything ..

I'm feeling right now! bulls_eye!

[burythehatchet]

217. Suggest you BEGIN by waterboarding yourself. That will bring joy to many

[graywarrior]

219. No need to add anything except I love it when posters omit a profile

[jonnyblitz]

225. I never understood the importance of profiles to people here at

DU. Even if a profile IS visible it could be filled with all bogus information. I think some of you like to use this as a dig at somebody whose opinion you don't like.

[graywarrior]

229. Think I know!?

:rofl:

[Catherine Vincent]

220. Wow!

I think this is the first post that criticizes King Obama. The Obama bots aren't taking it too well.

[Bumblebee]

224. I promised to myself not to run down candidates I do not support because

there is so much of that on DU. Let me just say that I always felt that people were misjudging Obama because they liked the notion of him, or of what he could be, and failed to see him for what he was -- not all that liberal, and though smart and charming, inexperienced and naive; also not enough of a wonk to come after Bush and be able to clean up after him, and, finally, definitely not enough of a fighter to withstand the general election campaign. There are things that annoy me in him -- he does come across as holier than thou (which even got under Edwards' skin yesterday, not just the Clintons') and he is awfully vague and kinda arrogant because he thinks he should be able to get away with it. I still believed -- until yesterday -- that he would make a very good VP. Now I don't -- not just because it would be hard for them to mend bridges but because it just won't work. I do not think he is experienced enough or good enough as a debater to be a good VP nominee. There are things that annoy me in Hillary too -- and I do think that Bill should stay out of it as much as possible -- but, as Rummy used to say, we go to war with the army we have... Yes, she will unite GOP even if they are lukewarm about their own candidates but she can still win even if it's McCain, just because she is a skillful -- and, yes, ruthless -- fighter.

[bigwillq]

226. Will only vote for him if I have to.

I am not sold on him either.

[Jim Sagle]

227. U RRRRRAWWWWWK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cyr330]

231. Amen

At the risk of getting my head blown off around here, I will have to say I agree with you completely.

In the many hours I've spent listening to Barack, he has done nothing but mouth a bunch of platitudes. I have heard barely any specifics of what he's planning on doing, and about all I've heard is that he "can bring America together", and "he's for change!" Well, sorry. I want to know WHAT changes he wants to bring about. I find his health plan lamentable. He doesn't think we should REQUIRE people to have health insurance? Well, we require people to have AUTOMOBILE insurance, don't we?

I hope the voters see through him, not that I'm a particular fan of Ms. Clinton's, although, of course I'll vote for the nominee. I just hope & pray it's NOT Barack!

[Auntie Bush]

232. Please don't. The former is OK...the latter is a no, no.

[alllyingwhores]

233. No. 1--you won't have to worry about him acting as a stooge for his corporate sponsors because...

No 2--he's being setup by said corporate sponsors to lose in the general selection.

[lisainmilo]

235. I agree!

But I don't think after SC he will be so well.

[efhmc]

236. After his reagun comments, I decided that he will get my vote

if he is the candidate but nothing else and I am a precinct chair. BTW, I am an Edward's supporter.

[LandOLincoln]

237. You know what I can't stand?

Anyone who would spend time slagging one of our good Dems instead of aiming their venom where it belongs. And these days, that also applies to the candidates themselves.

My candidate isn't running, but what he said back in 2005/6 (I think it was) should be tatooed on the forehead of every Democrat:

The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats. --Wes Clark

[amborin]

239. Obama bombed in the debate

he hemmed and hawed and struggled unsuccessfully to compose credible answers

some of his responses were completely evasive, other times he seemed unable to reply, or caught off guard and unprepared

his health care policy is unacceptable

his cult following is a turn-off

worst of all, however, were his earlier comments on Reagan

there is no way those statements are defensible....despite his unsuccessful attempt in last night's debate to wriggle out of it and salvage his credibility as a democrat

he's lost me

[AtomicKitten]

241. Obama invokes comparison reminiscent of RFK and DU spits on him.

That is as funny as it is sad.

[Andromeda]

263. I remember RFK well and...

Obama isn't remotely like him. I don't know who made that comparison but Obama and Robert Kennedy were as different as night and day. (No pun intended.)

As Attorney General, Bobby was tough and passionate and went after corruption with everything he had. He made a lot of enemies but he didn't care. If he wanted to nail somebody, he did. Obama wants everybody to adore him and tell him how wonderful he is. He thrives on adulation and that's his weakness.

Robert Kennedy had a spine and Obama doesn't.

[AtomicKitten]

270. You wouldn't know the difference

because you don't know Obama. You presume to know Obama. And that presumption is the arrogant cynicism that is dead weight on this party.

On edit: Obama was right about Iraq from the start, Hillary and Edwards were dead wrong. I will hold those that voted yes on the IWR accountable even if the keyboard warriors here at DU forget the boycotts and oaths they issue about 10 minutes after uttered.

[nankerphelge]

242. Posts like this...

are why I rarely read DU anymore.

[For PaisAn]

243. Arrogance

I think it's quite arrogant and presumptive for him to think he should be president. He really thinks he's the most qualified for this job?! It's irresponsible of him to even be running.

[wisteria]

244. Obama is the only hope for our country and our party. n/t

[randymaine]

245. Hatred Obama does not deserve

He is a progressive who opposed the Iraq war when others supported it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

248. And voted to fund it too!

[randymaine]

252. but Edwards and Clinton voted to start it n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

256. What's worse? Before or after the fact?

And after he said that he wasn't going to fund it.

[madmunchie]

278. How easy is it NOT to send money to make sure that the soldiers have what they need??????????

That is what the question boiled down to. IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO NOT SEND THE SOLDIERS THERE TO BEGIN WITH...DUH!!!!!! I can't believe that you could ask that question.....on the other hand yes I could.

[still_one]

246. You think you have just helped your candidate with your venom and hate?

because of posts like this, I won't be voting in the presidential race, and that is my statement to you.

[0007]

247. Written by a true wanker ... n/t

[Skwmom]

251. Obama strikes me as a stand up guy unlike the other two

that come across as two phony politicians who will say and do anything to get elected. But then again Clinton and Edwards have a lot in common (both DLC, and their rhetoric doesn't match their record).

[allinktup]

253. FLAME!!!! - BAITING!!!!

Flame baiting! That's all this is. I don't understand why in some cases this is unacceptable and in this case it is acceptable. You can read the title of Justice is Comin's piece and determine that this is what this is. We may not like policy but to deride a DEMOCRATIC Candidate because you have an affection for another is no different than what you say about the other party. Listen to how rabid you people are. Getting personal and not understanding that they are all politicians trying to win the white house. You guys act as though your candidates of your choice have never fudged the truth, told an outright lie, covered up a record. These are all politicians. You can choose a candidate to like but you don't have to scorch other candidates by telling us you detest them as human beings. All of these candidates for what it's worth can be good and can do some pretty questionable things but they are human. You think Obama's bad! Just look at what you've written, Justice is Comin'! Where is your frame of reference? For those of you who talk so rabidly about a candidate, think about the substance of your words. It's as though you think you're not capable of doing some of the things you dislike in a candidate. Just think about it.

[robbedvoter]

255. I stopped liking him after the Reagan remarks (and yeah, he PRAISED him

repeatedly, in the interview, and in his book while disparaging "liberals".
The debate didn't help him much, neither did all the "let's join the evangelicals" and the "prayerful abortions.
I happen to care A LOT about separation of church and state as well as freedom of choice.
The whole circus of his supporters praising Reagan for not vetoing MLK birthday bill, posting praise for Obama from The Weekly Standard and attacks on the Clintons from the entire Arkansas Project complement, not to mention the Clenis obsession - all this makes me not just NOT want to vote for Obama, but maybe even vote for Hillary (much as I am not really a supporter of hers)
The non-bush vs anti-bush dichotomy is another biggie.
This robbed voter doesn't want to "unite" with the thieves of the past 2 elections, much as Bill Schneider tells me I do.

[mtnsnake]

259. That was just awful

He'll never live that one down...talk about something that's going to haunt him forever. Even the repukes will rake him right over the coals with that one if he gets the nod.

[From The Left]

257. Racism Sucks Whether From the Left or the Right

I wonder if the dumbass author of this mess of a thread was wearing a Klan hat when they wrote it.

[smalll]

258. LOL - "vanilla coat it with layers and layers of circular bullshit"

Mixed metaphor of the month! It almost sounds like it looks delicious...

[BigBearJohn]

260. Problem is, ever since * became President everybody thinks they're qualified for the job.

Is there a more important job in the entire world?
Shouldn't this position have the most stringent of requirements?
Like, say, the ability to lead? or years and years of extremely responsible positions?
or wisdom and profound judgement to lead this great country into the next century?

Honestly, I'm not overly thrilled with ANY of the candidates. I sure wish Gore would have run.

However, if I have to vote for one -- I will have to give my vote to the one
candidate who is willing to fight the corporations and stand up for the little guy -- John Edwards.

[Political Heretic]

261. You base this on what? Jesus he's not even my candidate and I think you're an asshat.

Yeah, go ahead and delete my post... I'm still right. :(

[complain jane]

265. I feel this way about all the candidates.

No reflection on the quality of our candidates... just a reflection of politicians in general and the nature of politics.

I wouldn't buy anything from any of them... regardless of party affiliation.

And that sucks.

[themaguffin]

271. I only vote for DLC approved candidates

[Clintonista2]

276. Kick

[vincenzoesq]

279. Okay, I bit

but you have a sick sense of humor.:puke:

[laugle]

280. Wholly BATMAN.......recommendations 106, that must be a new record! LOL nt.

[vincenzoesq]

281. Not bad for a prank thread.

Guess I should have trusted my instincts on this one. It is laughable.