A TPM reader on the debate: Knives at a Gunfight

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

Knives at a Gunfight
TPM Reader CN checks in ...

I submit that your mixed feelings about Hillary are the result of two different desires: to nominate the best Democrat, and to nominate the best candidate. I suffer from the same problem -- the idealist in me is disquieted by Hillary's attacks and backhanded smears on Obama, while the pragmatist in me sees her ability to throw elbows as a plus. The general election will be a bitch-slapping muckfest no matter who gets the nomination. I've been a longtime Obama guy, mainly out of the belief that he has the best chance in the general, but Hillary is starting to seem pretty good. Every time she (or Bill, or another of her surrogates) gets in a shot at Obama, part of me is disgusted . . . but another part of me counts it as a point in her favor.

Hillary is who she is; she can't change her spots just for the primary race. A lot of people who now condemn her for being a cunning operator will despair when Obama, if he wins the nomination, responds to bitch slaps from the right with "hope and unity" language. But you can't have it both ways. I'm reminded of people who hate lawyers because they're too contentious and sleazy and aggressive -- but when they get sued, they insist on getting the meanest bull dog of a lawyer they can find.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/064352.php

_______________________

(Responding to Josh Marshall's final debate comment):

Concluding Thoughts

It's hard for me to think of much good from this debate. If you view debates like a boxing match, I guess it was lively and perhaps entertaining, in the sense that a good boxing match can be, though the fighting was more intense than well executed. But that's only if you have no investment in the outcome. If you're watching this with a mind to wanting one of these three to be president in 2009, as I do, it wasn't a great thing to watch.

One observation stands out to me from this debate. Hillary can be relentless and like a sledgehammer delivering tendentious but probably effective attacks. But whatever you think of those attacks, Obama isn't very good at defending himself. And that's hard for me to ignore when thinking of him as a general election candidate.

In most of these cases -- such as the Reagan issue -- I think Obama's remarks have been unobjectionable but ambiguous and certainly susceptible to both misunderstanding and intentional misrepresentation. And if you're going to talk like that -- nuance, as we used to say -- be able to defend it when people play with your words. And I don't see it.

Let's hope Mitt wins Florida.

--Josh Marshall

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/064349.php

[Unsane]

1. Hillary took a nosedive; Obama may win SC by double-digits

Which could give him big mo heading into Feb. 5.

[Clintonista2]

4. Replace "SC" with "NH" and you have a perfect summary of the feeling going into NH

How did that turn out anyways?

[Unsane]

6. Hillary has left SC. Apparently she isn't even campaigning there.

Your comparison is off.

[dkf]

2. That is how she fights and that is how she will govern

As she will have no coattails and maybe even negative coattails in Red States, she would have even less of a majority to work with in Congress than would Obama or Edwards.

Yet she will try to dominate everyone into doing as she wishes.

I see a Hillary Clinton Presidency as gridlock beyond gridlock. If your only goal is protecting the Supreme Court you've got your candidate. If you want legislation passed, you are better off with someone else.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Do you anticipate losing congress? If not, why gridlock?

[dkf]

8. Not losing congress, but less than 60 dems.

ergo gridlock.

[Nailzberg]

3. Obama came off the ropes tonight, he's pulling the rope-a-dope

Hill's been a heavy hitter throughout the debates. She's been coming at him strong, and had him against the ropes in the last several debates. But tonight, by coming off the ropes, and hitting her back hard, he looked like a candidate that will defend himself in the GE, not afraid off throwing punches.

Meanwhile, Hillary came off looking mean and desperate, having been launching attack after attack. Obama held off long enough that he can maintain his politics of hope theme, and still be aggressive from now until Super Tues.

That's how I see it, at least.

[Egnever]

7. The problem with this post

is that hardly anyone watches the debates. What they get is the commentary from the news that the news thinks is important in the debates.

Personally I think Obama did great tonight, but I like him so my judgment is surely biased.

The point though is that Obama doesn't have to be deft in defending her bullshit he just needs to plant the seed that it is questionable or without merit. The media will pick up on it on its own if he is right and call it for what it is. Just look at the post debate coverage.

If there is one thing Obama has done well its to bring the media to his side Time after time not through necessarily a shouting match but through a reasoned response.

Think back to the first debates when Obama said he would talk to our enemies. Clinton attacked him as naive and the press ran with it for a day or three but then the tide changed, people had a chance to chew on it for a while and reason won out and the media came to his side. Hillary of course had to backpedal and now shares his position.

Same thing with Nevada. Hillary won! those will be the headlines we heard and they were for a day but now what do you hear over and over Obama got the most delegates. Everyone said they wouldn't talk about it but after the first headlines its all they talk about in reference to Nevada every time its brought up. He planted the seed and after the initial knee jerk reactions in the end it was his reality that won out.

Hes good at it and has done it time and again in this race so far. Tonight he got jumped on by Hill and John for his health care plan but he planted the seed of the mandates and the fines and I guarantee you will will hear that over the next few days.

Someone somewhere else here called it the rope a dope and I think they were spot on.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

9. Josh Marshall hits it on the nose

as he so often does:

"One observation stands out to me from this debate. Hillary can be relentless and like a sledgehammer delivering tendentious but probably effective attacks. But whatever you think of those attacks, Obama isn't very good at defending himself."

In my view, that's what the relentless attacks of the past month have been all about: an illustration of the Clintons' fighting power. It's ugly, it's unpleasant, and it's a turn-off. But if the GOP puts up McCain, an ability to hit hard and keep punching will be crucial to staving off RW swiftboating.

I thought I saw that same ability in Obama. He still has time to show it.