Double standard on DU, again: Obama was tough, Clinton was angry

[question everything]

have I hears shrill, yet?

They both went after each other, insistent, going back and forth with equal intensity.

But, oh, for DUers, Obama was tough while Clinton was angry.

[Colobo]

1. Obama finally fought back

and showed The Clinton Machine they are gonna have to KO him to beat him. He's in it to WIN.

[Little Star]

51. Took him long enough! SC is his because of the divide.

Now lets move on to the real issues.

[Egnever]

2. Hillary was shrill!

Happy?

[readmoreoften]

3. Actually, that's a good point.

The subtlety of sexism is brutal.

[TheDonkey]

4. Hillary reminds more of MOM from Futurama. She acted bat-shit crazy

during that heated exchange that will be all over the news tomorrow. It is not sexist to point out but she was completely out of control. She went on a long uninterrupted tirade against Obama and then when he responds she gives him about 20 seconds before she tries shouting over him. It was incredible to watch.

[Occam Bandage]

5. Depends on the DUers. For many, Clinton was "tough and cool," while Obama "fell apart."

[BenDavid]

34. HRC handed obama his ass several times last night. obama

after 2/5 obama will hang around but he is done. finished..out.....

bill clinton has got inside obama's head and it was pretty clear last night on several occasions obama as i writtern before came across as incoherent and stumbles in his delivery and over all obama has been JUKED, and truthfully bill can dance cause he's inside your head mr obama....

[question everything]

64. Oh, I would not say that Obama is done

Like Reagan, he is getting to be the Teflon candidate.

As we have noticed previously, too many voters go for the appearance, for their gut feelings rather than the hard facts. How else did Bush charme so many voters with nothing much to offer? How else is Reagan considered one of the greatest presidents, even by Democrats?

And now Obama is exciting. Young and charismatic, and is certainly different from the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons of previous races. He did not have to face so many scrutinies that Clinton and even Edwards did.

So now, when the Clintons finally decided to throw the inconsistencies in his face, he is at least forced to come with an answer.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

6. Well not for this DUer, I thought she was tough

She even called herself tough. She's trying to prove that women can be just as tough as men, but then gets slammed for it.

[question everything]

66. She is beyond trying. She has proven herself tough and smart

and knowledgeable more than all others - of both parties - combined.

She was not my first choice until I started watching the debates and I was impressed.

But it is interesting that when she decided to abandon the "nice girl" and, yes, raised her voice to emphasize what she means, and to concisely list her reasons, or actions, or accomplishments, while the men were just shooting the breeze, she was singled out as "angry," "losing her cool."

Frankly, when someone "loses his/her cool" in a discussion this means that this person is passionate about the issues.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. She did well. He did well. So did Edwards.

All 3 of our candidates are a damn sight better than anything the repukes have to offer. That's my take on the whole thing.

[Horse with no Name]

8. Well we should ALL be angry

However, I didn't see Hillary as angry and conversely I really didn't see Obama as tough.
It's just the MSM driving the memes again.

[robbedvoter]

9. There was a "harpy" thread somewhere too. Well said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4151344&mesg_id=4151344

[jgraz]

10. It's not a gender thing, it's a charisma thing

Obama has a lot, Edwards has some, Hillary has ... less. She simply cannot pull off righteous anger without seeming nasty. Like Kerry and Dukakis (and Gore 1.0), she often seems uncomfortable in her own skin.

People are simply put off by someone who does not seem genuine, regardless of gender. You want a counter-example? Find some video of Barbara Jordan to see how it's done.

[robbedvoter]

11. Of course it's not a gender thing. Just check this:

[jgraz]

13. You're pasting in a cartoon?

What the hell is that supposed to prove?

[Lucinda]

22. The guy who posted the spiderman/batman analogy is critical

of someone making a point with a cartoon? :)

[jgraz]

23. Um, what are you talking about?

:shrug:

[robbedvoter]

25. That is "not" a gender thing - not!

[jgraz]

65. OK, I thought the cartoon was pretty weak but your stale Wayne's World callback really got me

:eyes:

[question everything]

67. Cartoon is just another form of editorial

and there were plenty in the MSM, mostly MSNBC/Newsweek.

First, she was not "genuine" was cold and calculating. But when she did show some emotions, she was a "weak girl."

Before New Hampshire, on the ABC debate, I thought she was great when she raised her voice to answer, point by point, what she has accomplished. But on DU and on the MSM, she was "angry," even R.I.P. Same when her voice chocked later. Before that, she was expected to lose big to Obama in NH. The rest, of course, is history.

[jgraz]

72. I guess I was expecting some actual original thoughts, rather than a copy of someone else's work

My bad...

[Nailzberg]

12. I wouldn't call it a double standard. The perception is based on prior performance.

Hillary has shown in the last couple debates that she is willing to draw blood on her opponents. But up until now, Obama has been bringing a knife to a gun fight. Tonight, he brought a gun, too, and showed effectiveness in duking it out during the debate.
If I only saw this one debate, I would think they fought to a draw. But over the course of many debates, Obama was tough because he finally was, Hillary was angry because Obama finally was tough.

[Adelante]

46. Very interesting point

I think this is true:

"Hillary was angry because Obama finally was tough"

[tired_old_fireman]

14. I was thinking the same thing

It's a real challenge for her to fight the prejudice against women being perceived as bitchy when they get confrontational.

I thought she did an excellent job tonight. I mean, I don't agree with a lot of what she said, but she really was quite poised. Obama's body language changed during the debate. He started to slump his shoulders as the debate wore on and it made him seem weak. At the start of the debate he really commanded the stage and by the end, he kind of lost it.

[Mojorabbit]

15. She was angry

and not in control. As a woman I can draw blood without raising my voice. Ask my husband. :) She lost her composure in my opinion but it was a great debate all the way around.

[David Zephyr]

16. She was angry. Bill was angry in Nevada and his wife was angry in South Carolina.

What an unhappy couple they are.

[Quixote1818]

17. Hillary reminded me of Chris Wallace in the Bill Clinton interview.

Both her and Bill are losing my respect and it's very sad to see people in the Democratic party playing such evil, dirty politics and smiling while they are doing it.


:puke:

[Diane R]

18. No. The double standard would be letting Hillary get away with her lies just because she's a woman.

[CelloPaddy]

19. I would describe her voice as strident, that's not relevant though I know! nt

[Unsane]

20. I agree with jgraz; it isn't a gender thing, it has to do with charisma

Hillary, as a person, just comes across in an unappealing way when she gets angry. While Obama, whether it's the tone of his voice or what, comes off as cool and calm, while at the same time forcefully fighting back.

[emilyg]

21. To me he seemed rattled.

[FrenchieCat]

24. Obama kicked Hillary's ass...and she looked mad.

Deal with it.

[indimuse]

35. she called out Obama on his BS..

for the nation to see just how evasive he's been on issues..I guarantee people WILL start to question his honesty from now on.JE backed her up! Finally! I wonder what Fitzgerald will expose in the weeks to come...?

[cali]

26. playing the sexism card. Forget it. That dog won't hunt

this situation. Yes, she's been the target of sexism before on DU. Not last night. He was raked over the coals and so was she. Her supporters shouldn't be constantly playing the sexism card when she gets criticized. It's fucking whiny shit.

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. I've been thinking about Clinton's strategy last night

I think the latest focus from the Obama camp on Bill Clinton's role in her campaign had a lot to do with it. Obama has his reasons to be annoyed with Bill Clinton's role, but the sub text of focusing on him was on clear display during the debate: "I feel like I'm running against both of them". I've noticed the meme begin to take hold that Hillary is hiding behind Bill, letting him do all her dirty work for her, not stepping out and leading her own campaign etc.

It is a not that subtle way of creating an impression that Hillary isn't tough enough to run for President herself without having Bill Clinton standing next to her. Well Bill Clinton wasn't standing next to her last night, and she showed a lot of people that she can be plenty tough enough to run for President. I think she just effectively buried an attack line that had been going into play against her. She doesn't need a man to fight for her, and she won't need a man to fight for our people as President.

[Joe the Revelator]

28. She ruined the one thing that had started to save her campaign

She put a bullet in the head of "likeable" Hillary.

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. That's one possibility

I hate stupid knee jerk spinning, so I will say it is possible you are right. But that is by no means certain. Hillary Clinton has broad support from registered Democratts. She had it before Iowa, and she had it after Iowa. What she lost after Iowa was critical momentum. She had to stop the onrushing wave of excitement about Obama coming from behind to take the nomination away from her. New Hampshire, like Iowa, is a very retail campaign state with an up close and personal political culture. She accomplished what she needed to accomplish in New Hampshire.

Last night she reaffirmed her toughness when it was begining to be spun that she needed Bill to do the heavy lifting for her, and she worked to show another side of Obama, him off of the viionary idealistic pedestal and engaged in the hard political tug of war battle of defending himself against charges while attacking his opponent in turn. Obama's strongest political suit has been his hopeful tone and oratory skills. Clinton wanted to remind voters that Republicans won't allow him to strike that posture unchallanged.

[GalleryGod]

57. Read Carl Bernstein's "A Woman In Charge".

He nailed her personality perectly.



"Hillary !!!?" "Are you OVERBOARD, a-gain !?!"

[indimuse]

36. good point.

...

[Adelante]

60. I don't see that Obama has been left with much choice but to do that

While I think her win in New Hampshire was based on Hillary's brilliantly pulling back her negatives and pushing forward her positives in a very short period after her Iowa loss, as well as her decision to focus on younger women in New Hampshire, it is also true that she had the superior ground game in New Hampshire, as Obama had that in Iowa. He still managed to lose only by two points, even though, in my opinion, his New Hampshire strategy to forego the retail politicking for the large crowds was a mistake. I can see why he did it, because there was so little time, and it seemed it would play to his great strength, and he had at least some momentum from Iowa, but it was still not right for New Hampshire. It didn't play there.

But Nevada was something else.

Hillary also had the better, longer established, as well as Democratic establishment, ground organization there, no question, but I believe it could have been upset by his more grassroots organization and his large crowd appeal might have pulled those 6+ points if he were facing Hillary alone, if Bill Clinton campaigned there as a traditional candidate spouse, instead of as the other half of a candidate team.

There is no question that Bill campaigning in support of Hillary, her accomplishments, her record, her talents, is a benefit and always will be. But the last Democratic leader of the free world and symbolic leader of the Democratic Party campaigning against his wife's Democratic opponent, positioning himself on a receiving line to greet caucus goers at the caucus room door, hand-shaking and asking for votes just as the caucus opens, using his gigantic media lure to pound on the opposition, now, that's a whole other thing. Bill Clinton's role has been defined, at this point, by the Clinton campaign as someone who is running for office, even if he can't technically and shouldn't ethically, for the one reason nobody does that better than Bill Clinton and nobody on the other side has his singular stature as ex-president. Hillary obviously and wisely for her campaign has accepted and approved that strategy.

Where does that leave Obama but running against two Clintons?

I prefer not to get into the matter of distortion of Obama's record by both Clintons. It seems to be one of those either you see it or you don't things and not worth arguing here. But whatever both Clintons are doing, clearly it's both Clintons doing it. But even Hillary alone is running to the large part on the record of the Clinton administrations, Bill Clinton's administrations. Okay. If she wants the credit she has to take the discredit as well and Obama has to be free to do that. Acknowledging that he is one candidate running against two candidates repositions him on the field. It's a smart thing to do and since Nevada, the only thing to do.

As to the question of Hillary's running a feminist campaign or not, I think she is not and it's a matter of some pain to me to say so. It may be becoming a meme, but it's something I saw and remarked on during the week leading into the Nevada caucus. So Obama's conclusions have not affected my own. But if it becomes a meme from the Obama campaign, Hillary has herself to thank for it. She can't have it both ways: independent woman and half of a husband-wife team. Although I don't support her in this race, I have been cheering her on in my own way, because as feminists in the 1960s and 1970s, this is what we looked forward to -- a woman accomplishing great things on a level playing field with men.

The level playing field of the Democratic Primary been stacked with the former Democratic President of the United States, who has no intention of using restraint for the good of the party. And that's a big stack.

Obama has to go for it. In the situation as it is, he has nothing to lose and maybe something to gain. What he can't do is just lie down and let the Clinton machine roll over him.

[Tom Rinaldo]

61. I mostly agree with all that you said

Earlier this week I posted "Good for him" when Obama said he would comment directly to Bill Clinton about his role in the campaign. I agree that Obama could not afford to ignore it. And I agree that, though it is a complex mix, overall Bill Clinton has provided Hillary Clinton with a strategic advantage, and that it is fair game for Obama and/or anyone else to raise any reasonably fair point to attempt to counter that. I say "overall" because the aspect of "Clinton fatigue" has been played on also, the aspect of rejecting a revolving two family dynasty has been played on also, the rejection of "back to the 90's" has been played on also etc. When Bill Clinton says something dumb, and he certainly has during this campaign, it comes back to bite Hillary a lot sharper than how the spouse of one of the other candidates saying something dumb would bite them.

You know I have agreed with you that Bill has overstepped some lines in the past, including at that Las Vegas caucus. When he obviosly over steps a line, that opens up a legitimate line of attack for Obama and his friends and/or allies to be critical of Bill Clinton. They would be foolish not to take that opportunity. I think it is smart for Obama to acknowledge that, in a way, he is running against two Clintons. But like most all things in politics, much comes down to how well one executes the hand one is given to play. That is where things get fascinating. It was looking to me like Hillary had started to overplay her Bill Clinton hand prior to last night, and maybe she had. Like I wrote above, last night once again changed the dynamic.

In some abstract ways we can agree on what a "level playing field" in politics is supposed to look like, and in some abstract ways we can promote one. But there is no such thing as a level playing field ever in reality. Sometimes all of it remains tilted in one direction, sometimes parts are tilted one way and other parts another. Sometimes an earthquake happens and rearranges the playing field in midgame, but it rarely if ever is level. Obama had some unique advantages also. The media did go absolutely ga ga over him a year ago; he did get the full "rock star" treatment and money can't buy something like that in politics either. But ultimately it all is what it is. Both sides will use whatever advantages they think that they legally have to win, that is a big part of politics. How the other side counters is another big part.

I agree that Hillary had to take charge of an emerging major aspect of her campaign. She could not allow her husband to continue to do the heavy lifting for her in attempting to bring Obama's strong appeal back down to earth. So in that way I think she did appropriately reassert herself in the command role over her impossible to ignore husband (really no matter what we all may think he is impossible to ignore).

As to what is and what is not feminist in a political career, especially in a career that dates back to the sixties, that is a good topic for a Doctorate thesis. The choices Hillary had open to her in the mid 70's are not the same as the choices women have open to them now. And once the terms for a partnership strategy are agreed upon and set into motion, a history begins to form behind that partnership that colors how each individual within it can and will be perceived on their own, including whether or not it is fair for both parties to completely be judged on their own in retrospect. In community property states, the assets of a marriage are divided equally upon dissolution, regardless of which party had the greater literal earnings during that marriage. That practice is part of a feminist legacy also.

Still Hillary has to show the American people that she, Hillary Clinton, is capable of being President on her own. Last night I think was a part of that for her. Obama has to show the American people that he can handle the rough part of politics, the sharp elbows and potentially low blows, not just an ability to uplift our people with a compelling positive vision for our common future. Lst night I think was part of that for him. I firmly believe that our Party, if we can put our divisions behind up after this primary season, will have been better served by a longer rather than shorter contested period during this actual primary season. All of our candidates are being tested in new ways since the Iowa results came in. Whoever wins will literally be a better candidate in the fall because of it.

[denidem]

71. Tom, I am continually impressed by your thoughtful posts.

Thanks for giving this thread some real insight.

[LostinVA]

29. "Shrill" and "shrewish" have both been used

[Evergreen Emerald]

31. "shrill" "Shrew" "angry" "batshit crazy"

While Obama showed his tough side, "fighting both Hillary and Bill"

What a load of sexist crap.

[Apollo11]

32. Hillary crossed the line. Obama did not.

HILLARY CLINTON: Well, you know, Senator Obama, it is very difficult having a straight-up debate with you, because you NEVER take responsibility for any vote, and that has been a pattern.

After that astounding outburst, can someone explain to me how Hillary will be able to say that she is happy to support Barack Obama after he wins the Democratic nomination?

Or show me where Obama crossed the line in making an equally vicious attack against Hillary? :eyes:

Read the full transcript here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/21/debate.transcript/index.html

Watch the whole debate here:
www.youdecide2008.com/2008/01/22/video-cnn-democratic-debate-from-myrtle-beach-south-carolina/

[Evergreen Emerald]

33. It must get frustrating to have Obama keep changing his stories

The beauty of voting "present" is that he can claim anything. And that is what he is doing. And, it is hard to have a debate with someone, who can claim anything.

She crossed no more lines than he did.

[Maribelle]

37. Hillary on the Wal-mart board was last century. Slums in Chicago have the roaches crawling

as we speak.

[indimuse]

39. and while on the board..

she was fighting for womans higher pay.etc..

[Apollo11]

42. So Obama is responsible not only for slums, but also for roaches?

I guess on Planet Hillary you all believe that Barack Obama is single-handedly responsible for the physical condition of every residential building in the greater Chicago Metro area.

[Maribelle]

47. Obama is responsible for not doing something about it. Big difference.

I guess it's hard to hear the truth about the poster boy.

[Apollo11]

40. I notice how you are much more careful in choosing your words

than Hillary was last night, with her "you NEVER take responsiblity" attack.

Maybe you should be one of her paid advisors?

(PS - Sorry, maybe you already are one of her paid advisors ...)

[Evergreen Emerald]

41. if only..

sigh.

[adapa]

38. I sure people will say she was shrill- typical male responce to a strong woman

[Vinca]

43. I'm a woman and not only was she shrill, she was annoyingly bitchy.

There's no middle ground with Hillary. She's either cranky or she's spilling crocodile tears. I really want to warm up to her because I'm afraid she's going to be the candidate, but every time I see her I like her less. And don't get me started on Bill. Obama has shown the restraint of a saint not to dive into that mess.

[Maribelle]

49. Did you just promote Obama from poster boy to saint?

lol

[Vinca]

62. Yeah, right. You know exactly what I mean.

The shovel doesn't have to go too deep to dig up Clinton dirt for a political campaign and, so far, Obama and Edwards have played it a whole lot nicer than the Clintons. For example, I haven't heard a peep about Bill Clinton disengaging himself from businesses being run out of that lone building in the Cayman Islands. Hillary should've talked to Bill before her 2004 statement about wanting to close loopholes for "people who create a mailbox, or a drop, or send one person to sit on the beach in some island paradise and claim that it is their offshore headquarters."
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aiQEVoQ5nt5E&refer=home

[ShortnFiery]

44. Nope, that playing of the "perpetual victim" card a la Penelope Pittstop is wearing thin. eom.

[mtnsnake]

45. Of the 3 candidates left the only one who ever loses his cool is Obama. He should get better control

If he gets the nod, he better learn how to control himself better once the repukes start raking him over the coals, or it'll be all over before it even got started. There have been 6 or 7 times when he just about lost it altogether during the debates.

[LibraLiz1973]

48. Clinton was annoyed- Obama was ridiculous

If I were her, I also would have been annoyed.

[CTLawGuy]

50. Obama was defending himself

against Billary's (and that term is valid in this case) constant dishonest attacks. Good for him, it shows he can be a fighter when he needs to.

[Maribelle]

52. He is not choosing his battles wisely.

This is just one area where he would be creamed by the Republican machine.

[CTLawGuy]

53. who would we put up that wouldn't be

I know that the pugs would loooove to remind people about Monica Lewinsky and blow jobs.

How would Hillary stand up against "if Hillary can't defend the integrity of her own marriage, how is she going to protect the country?"

and then how is Bill's constant overshadowing going to play? Bill can't have a third term. If he overshadows her, how is she going to demonstrate she is a strong leader if she can't control her own husband?

As to her experience, the repugs are going to slash and burn that down to 1 and 1/3 Senate terms. My biggest criticism of Obama is for allowing Hillary to claim the mantle of experience. With ONE senate term as her only government experience, she is NOT the "experienced" candidate. First lady is NOT experience, and she cannot claim her husband's experience as her own. Again, Bill cannot have a third term. She CANNOT start relying on him, his policies, and his accomplishments for her "experience" or the Repugs will kill her.

Also, the Repug base is fractured seemingly beyond repair. What better way to reunify them than to scare them with the prospect of the Clintons returning to the White House.

Frankly, if we are dumb enough to nominate Hillary, say hello to President McCain....

[Maribelle]

54. Bashing Hillary is not supporting Obama.

amen

[CTLawGuy]

58. he's showing now

he can stand up and fight against those who are making dishonest, misleading attacks on him and sewing resentment within the party.

He will be fine, he doesn't need to hide behind a famous spouse (nor run on her famous last name).

[Beacool]

55. Nothing new!!

Sexism reigns here just as it does in the MSM!!!!!

Hillary: Angry, shrill

Obama: Assertive, fighting back

Please, same old B.S., different day!!!!

:puke:

[GalleryGod]

56. Not according to Munster,I'm sure.

[krabigirl]

59. Exactly.

[redqueen]

63. Some idiotic assclown even called her "hysterical" this morning.

I love the Ignore feature!

:D




And about last night... Edwards was the best! :7

[question everything]

69. In the old days, "hysterical" women underwent hysterectomy

as the diagnosis and cure for everything, including feeling weak and faint from wearing those corsets all day long.

[redqueen]

70. This feminist knows the history of that term for sure.

Thanks though. Good to have it spelled out in case anyone else wasn't aware.

:hi:

[suston96]

68. Yahbut....Hillary was - unladylike - she should know her place - cookies and ironing shirts...