If I "mandate" that every American own a VW Bug...

[CoffeeCat]

...and then fine people when they don't purchase a VW Bug--is
that actually "universally" giving every American a VW Bug?

What if many poor Americans--who live paycheck to paycheck--can't afford to buy
that VW Bug that I just mandated that they must have?

Am I really, in the end, giving every American a VW Bug?

[allinktup]

1. NO, you're giving them HilliCare

They keep saying that Obama's plan isn't universal... It is.. It's just optional universal. You can't FORCE people to buy something if they can't afford it.

[CoffeeCat]

5. I'd call it "Pie in the Sky" care....

If you've got a big share of the American pie--you can afford the care.

Otherwise, you get the fines.

[Cha]

19. I'm glad my guy is doing

it the way I want. I don't have health insurance nor do I want it.

[MNDemNY]

32. You'll just wait until you need it ,then enroll? Nice.

[MNDemNY]

31. And allowing the young and healthy to "opt-out" until they need it

is an actuarial catastrophe.As long as it is made affordable, and help is given to those truly in need must be compulsory. Not quite what I want(single-payer) but a OK move.

[GreenArrow]

51. or Edwards care...

essentially the same plan.

...In her phone call, Ms. Edwards noted an eerie sameness between the health care proposal laid out by Hillary Clinton this week, and the one her husband trotted out this winter.

She doesn’t use the word “plagiarize.” Nor does she speak of copyright infringement. But she does say “mimic.”

And she suggests Clinton might “cave” when it comes to negotiating the details of universal health care.

“I guess you could slip a piece of paper between what Ms. Clinton and what John proposed in February, but that’s about it. It’s remarkably similar,” Ms. Edwards began.

...

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/politicalinsider/entries/2007/09/19/elizabeth_edwards_hillary_clin.html

[Lautremont]

2. If you do so, you are a traitor, good sir.

The VW is an auto of German manufacture. You would be selling out what our doughboys were fighting for in the first place.

[CoffeeCat]

6. How about a Land Rover...

...in every pot?

[Lautremont]

11. British. Try again!

[CoffeeCat]

13. No....GM makes Land Rovers now....

...if I'm not mistaken!

[Lautremont]

15. GM is owned by Daihatsu!

(I made that up.)

[CoffeeCat]

23. LOL...it sounds plausible...isn't that sad? (nt)

[dkf]

3. Mandating just pisses people off and causes resistance.

Bad idea I say.

I think we should make health care affordable, see how many people are still uninsured and address it from there.

[avaistheone1]

10. It is not just the poor who can not afford health care - it is the middle class too.

Obama doesn't get that, but John Edwards does get it. Edwards will transition us to a Single-Payer plan of universal coverage which will get the insurance companies out of the picture and help make insurance affordable.

[havocmom]

18. And many WITH insurance are finding it is all but worthless when they need it

Too many medical treatments being decided by the bean counters. And now there is the stunt of looking for reasons to exclude coverage (sometimes after years of paying premiums) when someone gets sick and needs their insurance.

Gotta be single payer or it just won't work.

[dkf]

21. Are you kidding? I've seen what my coverage costs. It is ridiculous.

And for families? Even crazier.

I still say my solution (and Obama's) is better.

Single payer works for me btw.

[gateley]

4. Tonight was the first time I heard about the MA fine for being uninsured.

Insane.

[peoli]

7. yep

[Cha]

20. Oh yeah, it was all over DU

months ago..so much under the bridge and back again.

[calmblueocean]

8. Wish more people got this.

Hillary's grandstanding on this issue tonight was absolutely deplorable. Anyone should be able to see that.

[CoffeeCat]

12. She has the audacity to accuse Obama...

...of not covering everyone, when her plan clearly mandates that poor people--who can't even
put food on the table---BUY INSURANCE.

Obama's plan deals with the poorest of the poor and attempts to reduce premium costs
substantially, making the premiums more affordable and subsidizing the premiums.

She's shameless.

[havocmom]

16. Shameless? Perhaps.

Getting big bucks from insurance? Oh, where did I put that graphic some DUer posted about who got how much from which industry? Oh, yeah, bookmarked on the computer that died. Anybody have that graphic? It pretty much 'splains the push for mandatory insurance to work plan.

[Egnever]

24. While that graphic is fun to beat people over the head with

Its also very deceptive. Those numbers are from Opensecrets.org and they lump individual donations according to employer. So if I am a janitor working for a hospital my donations go down as a donation from the health care industry.

I am not saying Hillary isnt taking huge sums from special interests but I would be a little carefull with those numbers they dont really tell the whole truth. Well they do but people dont read the small print.

[Bluerthanblue]

17. that's right- People need to understand this- it is not a good plan.

:shrug:

[Lautremont]

9. Rant:

What the hell is wrong with your country??? Why don't you people have simple, universal health care? What is up with this mandate nonsense? Is everyone down there crazy? Why can't a candidate just say "I'm throwing down health care, bros, for everybody, single payer styles!"

[CoffeeCat]

14. Yes, we are crazy....

....and I wish you would run for President here.

I'd vote for ya!

:hi:

[Egnever]

25. There is still too much power held by the special interests

to take them on directly. Till we get the money out of our politics we are fucked.

[sandnsea]

28. It costs money

We don't have another 10% of our income to give to health care because we spend all our money on a global military.

[Horse with no Name]

22. The poor people who cannot afford it need the VW Bug the most

because it is economical and can take them back and forth to work.
However...what we REALLY need is public transportation provided by the government to everyone at little to no cost for those who cannot afford it. Problem solved. EVERYONE is universally covered without any punitive fines.

[hfojvt]

26. universal Hitler cars?

Whoops. Godwin's law.

[CoffeeCat]

29. Are you actually asserting...

...that I am invoking Hitler in this discussion?

[hfojvt]

42. well I said the H word

http://www.hitler.org/artifacts/volkswagen/

[CoffeeCat]

45. Ok, so YOU are the one invoking Hitler...

...Ok, I just wanted to be clear on that.

Because it never entered my mind.

Try to be a bit less obtuse, if you're going to throw out Hitler's name,
especially when you're the one bringing it into the conversation.

[hfojvt]

47. I was obscure, if not esoteric.

You were obtuse :P

You did invoke his car though, if not his name.

[CoffeeCat]

48. Yes, I used VW Volskwagen...

...but I certainly wasn't playing the Hitler card.

And yes, you are nothing, if not glib--with just
a hint of puerile smarm.

:P

[hfojvt]

50. I prefer to think of it as flippancy

a sincere desire to make people laugh, as opposed to the insincerity of glibness. The jump from Universal Health care to Universal Hillary Care to Universal Hitler Cars was supposed to be funny and based on the knowledge that the VW Bug was Hitler's idea.

And this :P was meant to be a playful jab in response to your insult. Perhaps if you were less non-puerile you might understand the concept of a playful jab.

[CelloPaddy]

27. Early last year

my significant other came home and told me this about Hillary's health care. Up until that point, I had been supporting her, but when I heard that she immediately lost my vote.

What bothers me about this is I can just see her at a table with insurance people and saying something like, "don't worry we'll take care of you, I'll just force them all to buy it, government mandate" then she leans over to an aid and says, "we'll spin it as universal coverage, no one is left out!"

[CoffeeCat]

30. Can you imagine what Republicans will do to her plan...

...if she is the nominee????

Her plan is WEAK and a God-awful idea.

Notice that the usual Hillary cheerleaders are AWOL on this post?

There's no effective way to defend her healthcare plan.

You can't MANDATE that people buy what they can't afford. You can't assert
that FINING POOR PEOPLE, when they can't afford insurance--is a good idea.

Only in Hillary's own head---could she believe that she "covers everyone".

"Oh hi! I'm Hillary! I mandate that every American buy a flat-panel television!
There! I did it! My plan gives every American a flat-panel television! Worship
me!"

Obama's plan cuts premiums and costs, making insurance more affordable for people.

Obama doesn't have the "Oh my gosh, I'm so much better than you, I cover EVERYONE!"
soundbyte.

What he does have is a REAL plan that actually does something to solve this problem.
Contrast that with Hillary's "You play or you pay" absurd mandate.

[leftstreet]

39. They'll go one step further than that

They'll launch a new Harry and Louise campaign, implying Hillary's plan will let your employer drop your insurance coverage. After all, if it's "mandated" on the backs of the workers...
:scared:

If Hillary won't back single payer, she needs to drop the subject!

[CTyankee]

33. Do you pay a Medicare tax in your paycheck?

Of course you do. It's taken out before you get that paycheck. That is what is called "mandatory." Same goes with your taxes. Do you pay taxes for schools, fire and police protection, public libraries? Of course you do.

The only question is tax fairness and that is what has been missing these past 7 years especially. Universal health care will only work if it is based on mandatory taxation, just like Medicare. Some recent plans talk about tax credits. If you don't make enough money to pay income taxes, then you get what is called a "refundable" tax credit, money up front to pay for health care, perhaps through a voucher system. There are variations on this theme floating around. Why try so hard to make it a "tax credit"? I believe it is because Dems figure it is the ONLY way to get any support from the Republicans. Dress itup as a tax credit,the thinking goes, and the Republicans will go for it. That remains to be seen of course, but that's the rationale.

[zulchzulu]

34. Just fine them for not buying a Bug so they get another penalty

After VW is gonna make lots of money!

[ljm2002]

35. Thank you!

That about sums it up for me.

Universal single payer health care is the only right answer here.

[stellanoir]

36. What about the uninsured who stay healthy through alternative

preventative means and don't ascribe to western allopathic medicine?

[MNDemNY]

40. How about that broken leg? or snapped neck?

A homeopathic cast?

[stellanoir]

41. I don't dispute western medicine's efficacy for skeletal injuries.

However there are many effective alternatives (without side effects) for many, many, ailments beyond over priced pharmaceuticals and invasive surgery.

FYI I got my illustrious medical degree from the "Lance and Leech School of Medicine" in the 1500's.

BTW. . . That would be a joke.

[Stop Cornyn]

37. If people who get sick can show up at the ER and get a free VW Bug at a public cost of $100,000

shouldn't we impose some sort of law which makes those who can afford that VW Bug pay for it at a reasonable market rate (which is to say, we'd need to create a reasonable market because one doesn't currently exist) instead of encouraging people to go without any VW Bugs until they get sick and then getting their VW Bug at an outrageously inflated price which is paid for out of tax dollars?

The problem with the "anti-mandate" fallacy is that the cost of care for the uninsured does not go away because these people choose not to pay for the coverage which they can afford; that costs is just foisted off onto the public when the costs are re-funneled into the highly cost inefficient treatment of the uninsured at emergency rooms which is their right under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act.

People who can afford health care coverage but "elect" to forgo coverage don't forgo heath care treatment -- they are just gambling that they will not need health care, but if they lose their bet, they still get health care, but it is paid for by the public when these people seek and receive treatment at the emergency room (by law, emergency rooms cannot turn them away). People who can afford health care coverage but "elect" to forgo coverage are placing a bet where -- if they win that bet -- they reap the benefit of saving the cost of health care coverage, but -- if they lose that bet -- the debt is paid for out of public funds.

[redqueen]

38. If they can't afford it then we just send tax money to VW.

Corporate welfare 2.0.

[mondo joe]

43. How do you feel about the social security mandate?

[Sparkly]

44. I think a better analogy would be mandating that people buy food.

:shrug:

[no name no slogan]

46. Yay! NixonCare! -- er, I mean HillaryCare!

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/22163.html

34 years later, and Democrats are still acting like Republicans when it comes to healthcare.

[mdmc]

49. the lights and windows won't work

I love VW, but they sure are cutting corners. Just like the Dems and health care!