Obama was just attacked on present votes in the Illinois Senate. Here's the truth about these votes:

[ProSense]

Obama was just attacked on present votes in the Illinois Senate. Here's the truth about these votes:

Obama Was Praised for Standing Up on Tough Issues – Because His Senate Seat Was Not Vulnerable, He Used His Position To Help More Vulnerable Senators Do The Right Thing. Zorn wrote, “Obama, however, was in a safe district and never faced a serious challenge for his legislative seat. He had no need to shy from hard-line stands on gun control and abortion rights. He actually took such stands frequently and is now highly praised by advocates for both causes. (Chicago Tribune, Zorn, 3/9/04)

Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A “Duck” Doesn’t Understand How the Process Works. “There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a “duck.” Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of Hull argument: “I think it’s not well-based…I think it’s somebody who doesn’t understand how the legislative process works.” (Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04)

Criticizing Present Votes Indicates “You Don’t Have A Great Understanding Of The Process.” “‘Criticizing Obama on the basis of ‘present’ votes indicates you don’t have a great understanding of the process,’ said Thom Mannard, director of the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence.” (Chicago Tribune, Zorn, 3/9/04)

Voting Present in the State Legislature is Used as A Signal to the Other Party, Not As a Way to Duck the Issue. “An aspect of Obama’s State Senate voting record that is drawing attention is his “present” votes. A present vote is a third option to an up or down “yes” or “no” that is used with great frequency in the Illinois General Assembly. It has many varied and nuanced meanings that, in the context of the actual bills, border on boring. It’s most important use is as a signal – to the other party, to the governor, to the sponsor – to show a willingness to compromise on the issue if not the exact bill, to show disapproval for one aspect of the bill, to question the constitutionality of the bill, to strengthen the bill. (Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04)

Obama Would Vote ‘Present’ On Unconstitutional Bills, Saying He Tried To Resist Bad Votes That Make Good Politics. The AP reported, “Obama says his ‘present’ votes often come on bills that he believes are unconstitutional. ‘I have tried to not succumb to the temptation of voting on bad laws just because it makes for good politics,’ Obama said.” (AP, 9/9/04)

link

[saracat]

1. Those look suspiciously like "talking points". I used to get the media "talking points' from

the campaigns.This is what they hand out in the "spin room". This is refighting the debate on those areas Barack didn't handle well on his own.

[calmblueocean]

9. This is an issue that's difficult to communicate in a 5-second soundbite.

Television has really limited the kinds of arguments you can make in debates. Being "boring" is seen as the worst possible thing you can do, and yet, this is actually a wonky issue that isn't instantly understood in a single 5 word sentence.

[saracat]

18. None the less, the candidates job is to do just that! He makes the point or he doesn't. He didn't.

[Marie26]

2. Sez Obama. nt

[1corona4u]

3. And you got this from his site....

so we should all buy it. Riiggghhhttt....

[saracat]

4. Just checked the link.Yup Spin room copy!

[ProSense]

7. Here

here

Do some research!

[calmblueocean]

13. The critics don't want to do research. They don't want to understand.

They just want to have their snark.

[thoughtcrime1984]

27. That's the truth, right there

The equivalent of fingers in the ears and yelling LALALALALALA! The truth is actually mundane and does nothing to further the cause of tearing down Sen. Obama.

[saracat]

21. What has that to do with the OP being "spin room copy" ? And thanks

bur I don't need to read anymore about the "Alan Keyes race", which was just a joke to begin with! He didn't even live in Ill. They bused him in to have a cardboard cutout to run Obama against as they didn't have a candidate. Jeez. A soap dish coulda won that race.

[ProSense]

23. The information is from the article, note the OP: (AP, 9/9/04)

Are you implying that it's not reliable because it validates what Obama said tonight?

[saracat]

25. "spin Room Copy " isn't necessarily unreliable. But it is a calculated spin. That was my only point.

It is jumping in to but a finish on what the candidate didn't effectively communicate. These pieces are ready to go and hit the reporters while they are still warm from the copy machine, seconds after the candidate has opened his mouth.I covered several of the Debates in 2004 and learned to recognize these.The more of them you got, the less effectively the candidate was perceived as making his point. Whatever.

[ProSense]

29. Calculated from 2004 for the 2008 debates?

Still, I find Obama to be a lot more believable than Edwards.

[jkurri]

45. Present... from a uniter??? Right.

Your post has some points but the reality is his whole platform is based on being a uniter, last night he mentioned a bill he sponsored, only to vote present on it later. This guy says he can bring people together to get real change accomplished, yet on one of his own bills he admits that others altered it to make it something he could not support. This is at a state level. You can't think the pressures of state legislation are anywhere close to that of national. He couldn't even get enough people together on a state issue that he penned to feel right about it. I have a huge problem with that. If you look at just a few of the present votes, which I have, they almost always show lack of leadership and someone who is politically jockeying for position, not someone who is voting his beliefs or morals. I don't see any difference then any other politician and right now we need someone who won't back down from their convictions. He is not the guy I am sorry to say.

[izzybeans]

5. And the present vote is a GOP talking point. Plain and simple.

[NastyRiffraff]

6. Only problem with all that is it applies to Illinois

and Obama is not in Illinois; he's in the U.S. Senate. And he has a record of voting "Present" on some crucial legislation.

Besides, a lot of this sounds an awful lot like spin.

[dkf]

8. I believe they are criticizing him for voting "present" on Illinois bills.

not on Senate bills.

[ccpup]

10. political cowardice is not a quality many look for in a President

He can spin it all he likes, but he was seeking political cover for what could be votes that could damage his Senate and Presidential ambitions.

He got his butt handed to him on National TV and no amount of spin is going to disguise that fact.

[ProSense]

11. Is this the

debate you saw?

[ccpup]

14. yep

and these Present Votes -- as well as the Rezko association -- were not good moments for Obama.

[ProSense]

22. He has already addressed that

Hillary on the other hand...

[avaistheone1]

24. True. Several of these present votes were clear cop-outs on Obama's part.

After researching Obama's voting record that is undeniable.

[AtomicKitten]

12. In Illinois, it is a procedural move that some mischaracterize gratuitously.

Thanks for posting. Information is good.

[ccpup]

16. and most of America will not get the procedural move

and just think he was ducking votes

[AtomicKitten]

17. well, good thing he had a chance to educate the public when she again made the accusation

That dog no longer hunts.

[ccpup]

39. with the voters I know, it does

they were VERY interested in learning more about it and were none too impressed with Obama's weak answer. Like it or not, it would be a major issue should he be the Nominee.

[AtomicKitten]

42. well, you can keep HOPING it does ...

Most folks I know are infinitely more concerned about actual YES votes on the IWR and K-L.

[ccpup]

44. are they concerned about S. 970, too?

[creeksneakers2]

15. I bought all that at first

Then I read Illinois Planned Parenthood's defense of Obama's votes. They said they allowed members to vote present on controversial bills. That means they let Obama duck the votes.

Planned parenthood didn't ask Obama to vote that way, as has been suggested. They offered an option. Obama was welcomed to take a side. So Obama was on the level when he blamed his votes on Planned Parenthood.

NOW says they asked Obama to vote the other way.

By the way, the proper vote for a legislator when a piece of popular legislation with an unconstitutional provision comes up is NO.

[Nailzberg]

28. That's not the proper vote in Illinois. Because of the amendatory veto.

Present votes are most commonly used in Illinois to encourage an amendatory veto from the governor to fix a portion of a bill. Understand that the Governor of IL can make changes to a bill during signing. It becomes law with those changes unless the Senate votes 3/5ths to override the changes, in which case the bill passes without the governor's changes.

When a senator has concerns that a bill may have conflicts either constitutionally or with an existing law, they use the present vote. Then they ask the governor to use the his power of amendatory veto to repair the bill during passage. Illinois has a different legislative system than the US Congress, and the amendatory veto and present vote don't translate using the language of our federal legislative body.

Now, understanding the amendatory veto, the reason for the present votes with Planned Parenthood was to provide cover for pro-choice members in vulnerable areas to avoid a vote on anti-choice bills. In order for this to work, some safe members had to vote present also. Obama, Madigan, and the others who were in safe districts provided the smokescreen for other members to duck the vote. This was during a Repub majority, and we needed to keep our seats.

Hopefully that makes a little more sense now.

[creeksneakers2]

31. Thanks, that helps

But for the purposes of passing the bill, doesn't a present vote count the same way as a no vote? Does a bill with present votes allow the governor to amend where a bill with an equal number of no votes could not be amended? Also, does the governor amend after a bill passes or before?

[Nailzberg]

35. Present counts against passage just as a no does.

The difference is what the signal it gives. The present vote stands out in the record in the session. Now, because only Yes votes count toward passage, senators won't use a present vote if it will affect passage. If you cruise through the voting records, you'll mostly see them when a bill is overwhelmingly supported, not during close votes. Part of the reason is bills with overwhelming support hit the floor for a vote rather quickly, leaving it with rough patches, whereas a contested bill will go through the meatgrinder just to get to the floor.

For your second question, it doesn't matter if you voted no or present, the governor can still amend the bill. But like I said, it's the signal that the present sends, that there may be an issue with the bill coming up.

And third, the Governor amends the bill when it is sent to his desk for signing, so it's already passed both houses. The bill becomes law after the fall veto session. The Senate can remove the governor's changes with a 3/5 majority as a safeguard against the Governor abusing this power.


Here's an example mentioned at tonight's debate. A bill that Obama voted present on that created stricter penalties for using a gun within 1000 ft of a school. Several senators, including Obama, voted present, although this bill passed with overwhelming support. At issue was a recent overhaul of the juvenile criminal codes in IL. The present voting senators lobbied the Republican governor, Jim Edgar, to adjust the age break between minor and adult charges from 15 to 16, to remain in line with the other juvie code. Edgar agreed, the conflict between the codes was resolved with his amendatory veto, and stricter penalties became law with the age adjustment made.

[creeksneakers2]

43. Thank you for explaining that to me.

[ursi]

19. Thanks for posting. This was lame tonight when they attacked him for that

when it was a state senate they never served in.

[Lucinda]

20. Lets let the NYT have a say in this too!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

[avaistheone1]

30. NYT says Obama ducked responsibility by voting "Present" on a number of important votes.

It is what it is.

[calmblueocean]

32. You obviously didn't read the article.

Try again.

[avaistheone1]

34. Here you go now you read it....: NYT says Obama ducked responsiblity

In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature — to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.

Barack Obama being sworn in as a Democratic state senator in Illinois in 1997. He was first elected in 1996 and left in 2004.
In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted “present,” effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.

Sometimes the “present’ votes were in line with instructions from Democratic leaders or because he objected to provisions in bills that he might otherwise support. At other times, Mr. Obama voted present on questions that had overwhelming bipartisan support. In at least a few cases, the issue was politically sensitive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2



Obama chickened out on the Kyle/Liberman vote in the U.S. Senate too.

[Lucinda]

36. I know. It's why I posted the link.

They can "explain" some of them away, but not all of them. :)

[CyberPieHole]

26. What a crock from the loser oBama...

[allinktup]

33. Some people just don't get it

And no matter how hard you try... They never will.

I think his present votes were really quite genious. If you don't agree with something, why vote in favor of it... Or for that matter against it. Some bills need to be reworked, that is what the present vote represents.

[hayu_lol]

37. Dunno, some of you fry Hillary for taking a stand, right or wrong, and yet...

you bend over backwards for the very provincial Obama with his cover your ass PRESENT votes. Obama isn't in the Illinois Senate at this time...what they do in Illinois(or any state for that matter)does not apply in the National Goverment.

Present votes are cop outs. Obama will not make hard or damaging yes/no votes.

Experience counts and Hillary has it.

[FrenchieCat]

38. Thanks!

I detest when folks talk about something they don't know anything about. Those who don't know Illinois State Senate rules need to shut the fuck up already....that includes Hillary and John! :eyes:

[flpoljunkie]

40. Hillary knows full well what a 'present' vote means. As Bill Clinton might say, "Give me a break!"

Anyone Who Thinks A Present Vote Is A “Duck” Doesn’t Understand How the Process Works. “There is a presumption, if one is not familiar with the mechanics of the General Assembly, that a present vote is a “duck.” Pam Sutherland, the CEO and President of Illinois Planned Parenthood said of Hull argument: “I think it’s not well-based…I think it’s somebody who doesn’t understand how the legislative process works.” (Chicago Daily Herald, 3/10/04)

[grrr050]

41. Give me a break !

To me yes is yes, no is no, "present" means, I dont want this vote in my record!!!!I would like to know how many senators in Illinois do have the same voting pattern or voting present countless times like Obama?

[ProSense]

46. Kick! n/t

[ProSense]

47. Kick! n/t