Hillary tries to paint Obama as Pro-Sex Shops = the most desperate, pathetic ploy EVER

[K Gardner]

I just watched the re-run on this. It is disgusting and she needs to apologize. I don't want to hear shit about what a "present" vote is or is not. If you KNOW the Illinois system, you understand what a PRESENT vote is. If that's all you have to bring to this discussion, stay out of it please. I want to hear someone DEFEND Hillary Rodham Clinton for this disgusting, shameful, dishonest, racist comment which is just as easily construed as: big bad black man will let pedophiles get your children. Defend that, if you can.

[ursi]

1. no kidding! Especially after Bill's adventures in the national media

with his sexcapades.

[Konza]

27. Anyone named Clinton should avoid running as a Knight of Morality

It's just unbecoming.;)

[rodeodance]

60. She was a Brave gal--to mention the word SEX on TV

[WillTheGoober]

2. umm ...

He needs to explain his votes.

He is not immune.

If he can't stand up to these soft-ball attacks -- then he should just step down.
The Republicans won't be so nice.

[K Gardner]

5. Do you even know what a present vote is? Go read up on it and get back to me. I'm sick of this shit.

It has NOTHING to do with "soft ball attacks". Are you fucking kidding me? This was sleaze and slime. Defend her comment, otherwise, stay out of the conversation. Or do you also think Obama wants to place sex shops near your child's schools??

[WillTheGoober]

48. OK ...

If it is sleaze and slime -- do you think he's not going to have to face that in the GE?

This is softball compared to what he'll face in the GE.

I'm in this to win.
I'm tired of losing because we put in somebody weak.

[CTyankee]

108. Can you tell me what Hillary said about sex shops? I have to admit I

fell asleep at one point in the debate, but I didn't recall anything about it when she mentioned the 140 votes for "present" and then John Edwards talked about it, essentially taking HRC's side.

If you could fill me in on it, I'd be thankful! And I shouldn't watch the debates while propped up in bed -- too risky that I'll snooze and lose!

[in_cog_ni_to]

111. She said he voted "present" on a bill that kept sex shops away from schools.

That was it. She didn't try to paint him as "pro-sex shops" as the OP is trying to say she did.

[CTyankee]

129. I did miss that. I've been trying to figure out this voting "present"

strategy by reading some of the explanations here at DU. I don't want to be unfair to Obama, but it is difficult for me to see this practice in glowing terms. Seems more like a cynical political move, but I guess if Planned Parenthood of Illinois considers it helpful to their cause who am I to complain...

[chascarrillo]

6. Justifying negative attacks because the Republicans will make them too?

I don't think you'll win many converts with that line of argument.

[WillTheGoober]

49. It's true ...

Listen ...
I don't post on DU to win anybody over. haha -- Clearly, we have intelligent, passionate posters here who are not going to change their minds.

But -- It's true.
Republicans have no shame.
They won't care.

[chascarrillo]

71. Which means that you have no shame either.

I'd rethink your argument unless you really mean that.

[WillTheGoober]

131. Listen ...

Say what you want ...
But going from a campaign of a winning candidate to whining candidate does not produce good results.

I do not want another whiner in my corner.
The Republicans cannot win this election. They need to be taken out. We need a veteran campaigner out there.

Say what you want about Hillary -- but she has done great things. She is a champion of many things and I am proud to support her. This lady demands a lot of respect for how she handles herself -- how she has maintained her family -- and how she has organized this campaign.

I think the Clinton's are what this country needs right now in times of such craziness. In the fall out of George W. Bush, I feel like the Clinton's embody the right mixture of experience and passion to get us back to prosperity.

Furthermore, if Mr. Obama with his hope and change message cannot handle the heat of fellow Democrats and leaders Hillary and Bill Clinton, then he is not going to be able to take on the Republican machines come time for the General Election.

Just my take.

W.

[allinktup]

91. Notice... No Defense Of Hillary In That Statement

[jlake]

3. No, she confronted his refusal to take a stance.

"Present"

[K Gardner]

12. That is NOT what a present vote is. Again, do your homework and get back to me on the accusation she

made. Thanks.

[jlake]

17. Thanks. I know the procedure..... just ain't buying the stories from BO

[Windy]

23. You have proven by your comments that you know nothing about Illinois and it legislature

You may want to educate yourself before looking so damn ignorant!

[jlake]

29. OMG. I certainly understand it. His answers do not fly.

[avaistheone1]

69. A present vote is saying you're chicken shit.

And we don't need a chicken shit president.

Bye, bye Obama.

[allinktup]

94. A present vote is saying a bill isn't worth a vote

I like the idea of a president who actually thinks for himself

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. That's not all it says. It also says there may be something in it that needs to be tweaked/changed,

to committee to be tweaked/changed and can make its way back to the floor at a future time. It's not just that the bill isn't worthy of a vote. Any bill he voted present on could make it back to the floor for a vote.

[99th_Monkey]

13. There were 100 examples she COULD have used to make her point

the sex shop remark was nasty and a deliberate smear.

[jlake]

20. No, it was a strong point to make.... seems like a clear issue to me, and BO couldn't make a choice.

[rodeodance]

58. Show the opponents weaknesses.

[99th_Monkey]

101. Obama pointed out what "present" means. Did you hear him?

It's what legislators do when a bill has objectionable details, most often added as amendments and such, that makes it a lose/lose propostion. No vote is a good vote in such cases. Are you unfamiliar with that legislative practice?

[jlake]

106. I heard him. I didn't buy his BS.

[99th_Monkey]

109. Let me guess why you say that.. oh nevermind .. I see the pic of Hillary in your msg. nt

[allinktup]

92. or this one

[depakid]

4. Wait a minute- aren't didlos already illegal in South Carolina

[Jamastiene]

118. No, that's Alabama.

I'd crawl to the state line if it was either of the Carolinas. :P

[99th_Monkey]

7. I agree. I couldn't believe my ears when she said that. Very low blow and uncalled for nt

[Bonobo]

8. Scary black man!

[suston96]

9. I am watching John Edwards criticizing Obama for those "present" votes.....

....on a CNN repeat, far more aggressively than Hillary did. Why are you just picking on Hillary?

[K Gardner]

66. LOL.. he criticized on the merits of Present Votes, period. It wasn't an ad hoc attack using "sex

shops" as a scare tactic. There's a WORLD of difference. I totally respect John's way of entering into valid debate about the present vote issue.. its legitimate and needs to be addressed. The way Hillary did it was sleazy and again, fearmongering/labeling, racist stereotyping, etc.

[karynnj]

127. Didn't Edwards miss 16% of all the votes in his Senate career

He really had no room to speak.

[Armstead]

10. I agree -- That was a skeezy attack

[Starbucks Anarchist]

11. I missed the debate -- can you fill me in?

[K Gardner]

21. I'm going to have to do some research on the actual vote she was referencing, but I'm certain this

clip will make it to You Tube soon. It was a bill about sex shops that Obama voted present on and her accusations were thinly veiled. Obama voted present as a protest to the language of the bill. I'm sure we'll get more detail on this as the night wears on.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. I see.

Thanks.

[creeksneakers2]

77. If Obama didn't like the language, then he should have voted no

[Rockholm]

14. Get a grip on yourself.

Your post is an ignorant, racist bunch of crap. Spin yourself back to where you came from.

[K Gardner]

31. Thank you for your concern. However, I'm not the one who made the charge on national TV.

[Rockholm]

37. Please.

[1corona4u]

15. Facts are a funny thing...

I also noticed how he steered clear of that vote, and brought up another vote instead when he addressed her...

[hulklogan]

16. Senator Obama is going to have a hard time in the GE if he can't explain the present votes

in a couple of sentences. Senator Clinton is actually doing him a favor by preparing him for this line of attack.

[K Gardner]

28. That's a new one: She did him a favor by accusing him of being in favor of sex shops. He actually

DID explain the present votes, but I'm sure Hillary's supporters were too busy slapping each other on the back over this disgusting attack to listen.

[hulklogan]

35. I don't care what Hillary's supporters were doing, it was a disgusting attack

But if Senator Obama and his devout followers think they aren't going to be hit with every single "present" vote on a daily basis should he get the nomination, they're clueless.

I want whomever we nominate to be prepared for the vile shameless Republick attack machine. Consider Senator Clinton's attack tonight as a warm-up.

[K Gardner]

52. Thanks for at least agreeing it was a disgusting attack ! We do agree on that and I agree with

you on the other, he does need to be prepared. No one could have seen this coming, tho.. IMHO.. I would never have anticipated this and I don't put ANYTHING past HRC and her "camp".

[hulklogan]

62. We need to be prepared for everything. There should be nothing

that catches any of our candidates off-guard in a debate situation. If Senator Obama didn't see the "present" votes coming tonight, he will next time and can now work on a concise and believable response that he can use in the fall if he wins the nomination.

[rodeodance]

55. Rep. Clyburn said today Obama has to buck up. I agree.

[Mutineer]

18. Just one of many despicable moments for her

imo

[Windy]

19. that was beneath contempt, but I'm sure HRC people think its AOK n/t

[K Gardner]

24. Yes, of course they do. Anything to win, yanno.

[styersc]

22. I know what a "Present" Vote is, particularly 130 Present Votes...

... It means that Obama was interested in winning an election and not interested in governing. You'd think that an activist would be more active.

And to be honest, you don't get to decide what the debagte will include. If Obama had more of a record if he had a longer resume' then we would have more and different issues to discuss, but.......

[Windy]

36. I guess I'll have to get the info for you...

http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/2007/12/04/about-those-present-votes/

Not that you're read and comprehend. I'm sure you'll have a selective understanding...


Tuesday, Dec 4, 2007

* The Tribune had this bit today on Hillary Clinton’s latest attack on Barack Obama…

also raised a new front on the issue of Obama’s use of “present” votes — rather than “yes” and “no” votes — on legislation when he was in the Illinois Senate, including on measures that dealt with Republican-led efforts to restrict abortion rights. <…>

Obama has defended his “present” votes on abortion-related bills in the Illinois legislature, contending it was part of a strategy fashioned with abortion-rights advocates to help give some Illinois Senate Democrats political cover and to avoid looking harsh by casting “no” votes that would create a re-election risk.

But the Tribune earlier this year found few lawmakers remembered such a strategy and many of those who joined with Obama to vote present were, like him, in politically safe districts.

* Maybe only a few members the Tribune contacted remember this ploy, but I do. It was specifically designed by Planned Parenthood to counter Republican Senate President Pate Philip’s barrage of hot-button abortion bills that he was continually trying to ram through the Senate in 2001 and 2002. The Tribune missed the point - and by not contacting the groups involved, flubbed the story.

Besides passing bills he supported, Pate’s idea was to cause a controversy by splitting “moderate” Democrats away from the abortion rights groups, thereby causing a rift on that side, and, more imporantly, to put some political targets on the hot seat. So, as they also did in the House a few years back, Planned Parenthood was encouraging “Present” votes by some of their more loyal members in order to encourage the moderates to vote that way as well.

* For instance, Senate Bill 1661, introduced in 2002, would have created the “Induced Birth Infant Liability Act.”

Provides that, if a child is born alive after an induced labor abortion or other abortion, a parent of the child or the public guardian may maintain an action on the child’s behalf for damages…

The bill passed with 31 votes, but it received 11 Present votes. Among those voting “P” were Republican Senators Christine Radogno and Adeline Geo-Karis. Moderate Democrats voting “P” were Molaro and Viverito. Sen. Pat Welch, a perennial political target who was finally defeated in 2004, also voted Present.

A companion bill, SB 1662, was also hugely controversial at the time…

Defines “born-alive infant” to include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

The roll call on that proposal was pretty much the same as the other one.

* Was the strategy a success? Planned Parenthood claims it was, but the bills still passed the Senate and not all politically vulnerable people stuck to the program. Sen. Debbie Halvorson voted “No” on both of those bills in 2002, when she was up for reelection, but voted “Present” the year before on pretty much the same legislation, SB 1094 and SB 1095

* Pam Sutherland of Planned Parenthood said today that Pate Philip “couldn’t use those votes against the moderates or against pro-choice people.” Sutherland also slammed Clinton. “Having come from Illinois, she doesn’t understand Illinois politics.” And Sutherland had this to say in today’s Sun-Times…

“The poor guy is getting all this heat for a strategy we, the pro-choice community, did,” said Pam Sutherland, president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council.

Also, none of those aforementioned bills made it to a floor vote in the House, a development that surprised and angered some pro-life activists who had believed that Speaker Madigan was an ally, or at least a sympathizer. It shows you just how controversial these bills were, because Madigan had allowed pro-life bills to the floor before that package of legislation was introduced.

* Despite all this, Present votes, particularly repeated Present votes, are almost always fair game in campaigns. I’ve seen them used time and time again. So Clinton’s attack is perfectly understandable and within the bounds of political tradition (unlike that kindergarten nonsense), even if her facts are off on this one. The Tribune’s coverage played right into her hands.

*** UPDATE 1 *** Perhaps the Tribune should have looked at their own paper’s archives. Eric Zorn covered this very same issue well over three years ago…

[mojowork_n]

This is from TPM/Josh Marshall (who's pretty pro- HRC )

From:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/064342.php

8:43 PM ... Just when I'm seeing Hillary's side of things, she comes back with crap like this 'present' stuff. Anybody who's looked into this knows the whole 'present' thing is garbage. It's a standard thing in the Illinois legislature. Here's the NYTimes fairly critical article on the 'present' issue, which nonetheless gets at the nub of the issue that in almost every case this is a standard part of legislative procedure in Illinois.

You have to follow the link to see what the NYT concluded.

[K Gardner]

63. Thanks for posting this ! Excellent article.

[Jennifer C]

73. Thanks n/t

[AtomicKitten]

25. "Defend that, if you can."

They can't.

[AX10]

26. Obama can't take a stand.

[Windy]

44. Like Hillary did on Iraq and Kyl/Lieberman? That kind of stand? wow, I forgot!!! n/t

[amborin]

30. sorry, but the 'present' votes are troublesome

the ny times ran an article on them some time ago....it didn't seem to resonate at the time

there was nothing wrong with Hillary's statements, they were making a valid point

[K Gardner]

34. Making a valid point by using the example of a sex shop and children??

[Windy]

40. facts on "present" votes in Ilinois.

http://thecapitolfaxblog.com/2007/12/04/about-those-present-votes/

Tuesday, Dec 4, 2007

* The Tribune had this bit today on Hillary Clinton’s latest attack on Barack Obama…

also raised a new front on the issue of Obama’s use of “present” votes — rather than “yes” and “no” votes — on legislation when he was in the Illinois Senate, including on measures that dealt with Republican-led efforts to restrict abortion rights. <…>

Obama has defended his “present” votes on abortion-related bills in the Illinois legislature, contending it was part of a strategy fashioned with abortion-rights advocates to help give some Illinois Senate Democrats political cover and to avoid looking harsh by casting “no” votes that would create a re-election risk.

But the Tribune earlier this year found few lawmakers remembered such a strategy and many of those who joined with Obama to vote present were, like him, in politically safe districts.

* Maybe only a few members the Tribune contacted remember this ploy, but I do. It was specifically designed by Planned Parenthood to counter Republican Senate President Pate Philip’s barrage of hot-button abortion bills that he was continually trying to ram through the Senate in 2001 and 2002. The Tribune missed the point - and by not contacting the groups involved, flubbed the story.

Besides passing bills he supported, Pate’s idea was to cause a controversy by splitting “moderate” Democrats away from the abortion rights groups, thereby causing a rift on that side, and, more imporantly, to put some political targets on the hot seat. So, as they also did in the House a few years back, Planned Parenthood was encouraging “Present” votes by some of their more loyal members in order to encourage the moderates to vote that way as well.

* For instance, Senate Bill 1661, introduced in 2002, would have created the “Induced Birth Infant Liability Act.”

Provides that, if a child is born alive after an induced labor abortion or other abortion, a parent of the child or the public guardian may maintain an action on the child’s behalf for damages…

The bill passed with 31 votes, but it received 11 Present votes. Among those voting “P” were Republican Senators Christine Radogno and Adeline Geo-Karis. Moderate Democrats voting “P” were Molaro and Viverito. Sen. Pat Welch, a perennial political target who was finally defeated in 2004, also voted Present.

A companion bill, SB 1662, was also hugely controversial at the time…

Defines “born-alive infant” to include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

The roll call on that proposal was pretty much the same as the other one.

* Was the strategy a success? Planned Parenthood claims it was, but the bills still passed the Senate and not all politically vulnerable people stuck to the program. Sen. Debbie Halvorson voted “No” on both of those bills in 2002, when she was up for reelection, but voted “Present” the year before on pretty much the same legislation, SB 1094 and SB 1095

* Pam Sutherland of Planned Parenthood said today that Pate Philip “couldn’t use those votes against the moderates or against pro-choice people.” Sutherland also slammed Clinton. “Having come from Illinois, she doesn’t understand Illinois politics.” And Sutherland had this to say in today’s Sun-Times…

“The poor guy is getting all this heat for a strategy we, the pro-choice community, did,” said Pam Sutherland, president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council.

Also, none of those aforementioned bills made it to a floor vote in the House, a development that surprised and angered some pro-life activists who had believed that Speaker Madigan was an ally, or at least a sympathizer. It shows you just how controversial these bills were, because Madigan had allowed pro-life bills to the floor before that package of legislation was introduced.

* Despite all this, Present votes, particularly repeated Present votes, are almost always fair game in campaigns. I’ve seen them used time and time again. So Clinton’s attack is perfectly understandable and within the bounds of political tradition (unlike that kindergarten nonsense), even if her facts are off on this one. The Tribune’s coverage played right into her hands.

*** UPDATE 1 *** Perhaps the Tribune should have looked at their own paper’s archives. Eric Zorn covered this very same issue well over three years ago…

[K Gardner]

50. Thanks for posting this :-)

[IsItJustMe]

32. HRC does not play nice, that's for damn sure!!!

[Konza]

38. That's why we can't bitch when they call her a crack smoking lesbian

in the general election.
And Christ knows the right wing thugs will!
But if we are going to run on the low road, and consider it "acceptable tactics to win", we might as well brace ourselves for the mother of all shitstorms come November.

[Jamastiene]

119. "crack smoking lesbian?"

STOP IT!!! That's too much of a turn on for me.

[madrchsod]

33. you lost me- what sex shops in illinois crap is she talking about?

i`m in illinois and have been trying to "educate" people on the use of the "present" tactic but they only hear what they want to hear. it`s a lost cause....maybe if hillary actually had some experience in state government she would`t have brought this up. never mind about explaining anything about the vote..it`s bullshit.

[K Gardner]

43. I have no idea what she was talking about. She didn't give details except for "SEX SHOP" and

"children".. I know, its very frustrating, and I thank you for responding as you're in Illinois and are familiar with this ! We need to find out exactly what she was talking about and debunk it.

[rodeodance]

47. She is smart gal--good sound-bites.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

79. diabolically clever are the words that come to mind

[madrchsod]

53. i`m really fucking tried of people thinking they know

how we should run our state and how we get things passed or blocked.that`s the way we run our state and that`s just tough shit...

[MagsDem]

39. She needs to apologize? For calling him on NOT taking a stand

on so many issues, and voting "present" so he can be safe politically? Sorry, but that just sounds ridiculous. Do you think he won't have to answer that charge if he were to get to the GE? He sputtered and stammered, and he just cannot explain it.

[rodeodance]

42. ha ha--Obama best buck and learn how to explain his voting

[K Gardner]

45. I'm glad you think this is humorous. That is very telling in itself.

[rodeodance]

51. what is the issue for you--that Hill brought it up Or that Obama did not have good response??

[K Gardner]

56. He did have a response. Evidently no one was listening, or.. the legislative function of

a present vote is too complicated to explain in 30 seconds. Either way, if she wanted to attack on present votes she could have done it like Edwards did.. in a straightforward manner. She didn't. She chose the low road, and I mean the LOW ROAD, by tagging him with the specter of sex shops and children. This is a disgusting Rovian tactic. That's my issue. If she had a dime's worth of integrity, she would NOT have done that to a fellow Democrat, a fellow Senator, a father, a husband, a decent human being and a fellow candidate for president of the United States.

[rodeodance]

61. yes,--good strategy by the comback gal.

[rufus dog]

46. Imagine that Hillary following a scorched earth methodology!

If she wins the nomination, the election will be a joke! Even with the hate of Repubs her tactics will have alienated so many Democrats that a loss in inevitable.

[Hoof Hearted]

54. You shouldn't smoke that shit.

[electron_blue]

57. I'm still confused about the ILlinois present vote.... I was hoping to be

enlightened at the debate, but still don't get it 100%. It's going to come up again and Obama needs to learn how to handle it. I agree that Hillary probably understands what it is and was being manipulative.

[K Gardner]

59. Agreed. The entire issue is going to need to be addressed in a way people can understand it.

[madrchsod]

65. waste of time- they only hear what they want.

shit i`m voting for dennis i`m just pissed cause obama was a dam good senator in my state.

[K Gardner]

67. Agreed.

[madrchsod]

64. read post 44

[electron_blue]

104. Why? What does Iraq have to do with this?

Do you really mean post #44, or anothr number?

[mojowork_n]

70. OK, here's the whole story,

Hillary went in to personal attack mode by bringing up the number of times Barack voted 'present', in the Illinois state legislature, including bills to keep sex-shops from being too close to schools.

When she said that, Barack just smiled, liked he couldn't believe his luck (or her ignorance.)

"That was a bill I sponsored," Barack replied. 'Protecting children from abuse is a personal priority,' he said, 'because he's had family members... he has daughters... he was the sponsor of that bill...'

The reason he voted 'present' was that's a procedural mechanism in the Illinois legislature, that's used in straightening out some of the details and technical language in a bill, before it gets to final form, or a final vote.

[Lucinda]

75. His campaign apparently said something different

The NYT article says that the campaign said he voted present because he was trying to avoid mandates on local authorities


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

[mojowork_n]

89. That's entirely consistent with his explanation during the debate.

'avoiding mandates on local authorities' sounds like an acknowledgement of technical issues -- like practical reality. If you'll read the correction at the end of your own link, the bill did not pass.

[Lucinda]

93. I am aware of that. I'm not in the habit of posting links to material I haven't read.

Since he had such a strong opinion about the bill he should have gone on the record for or against it.

[electron_blue]

105. So why not just vote No?

What does a Present vote accomplish that a No doesn't?

[Nailzberg]

132. Corrections! Woo-Hooo!

I wrote the NYT the day that article came out! Actually a couple emails to editors regarding that vote, supplied links to the general assembly records, floor transcripts, etc.

:bounce:

[divineorder]

88. Here's How I think it works

Nasty Repug proposes divisive bill. Moderate Dems are being pressured to vote for it to save their seats. More liberal Dems vote "present" to keep item from passage, keeping it from a general vote and off the floor.

[ellisonz]

102. Obama introduced the bill. Nasty Repug amended.

Obama votes present because he likes the bill but doesn't like the amendment. A present in the Illinois Legislature is equivalent to a No vote since you need a majority of all and not just a majority voting to pass a bill.

[Lucinda]

68. There is a mention of it here....and the whole article is worth a read

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"He also voted present on a measure to prohibit sex-related shops from opening near schools or places of worship, which ultimately did not pass the Senate."

[K Gardner]

72. Thanks for finding this Lucinda !

[Lucinda]

74. I'm still trying to find the exact item at the IL General Assembly web page

im not sure which session it was in....

[Nailzberg]

90. 92nd Assembly. SB0609

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet92/summary/920SB0609.html

[Lucinda]

97. Thank you!

[Nailzberg]

85. Back in December, they reported that it passed the senate.

I emailed the editors twice to get that corrected, provided links to senate floor transcripts - glad to see they finally set the record straight.

[Lucinda]

99. I saw the notation. Good for you for taking the time to correct them!

I see so many thing "reported" that I know aren't correct. It's amazing.

[mckeown1128]

76. kick and rec...nt

[Renew Deal]

78. It was unnecessary

Because ultimately Obama can argue that he did the right thing. There's no scandal there.

[Hello_Kitty]

80. "If Senator Clinton can't discern a legislative strategy, she isn't fit to be President."

That's his comeback on that.

[depakid]

81. and a pretty sorry one, I might add.

Think the audience is really going to get that?

[Hello_Kitty]

84. If he says it enough they will.

Repition is the key. Plus the right note of friendly, yet paternalistic disdain. "Really Hillary, I've explained this simple state legislative strategy to you repeatedly and you still don't seem to get it."

[creeksneakers2]

82. Please don't conclude that just because I disagree with your

conclusions on the present votes that I haven't listened to Obama's side or don't understand it. I even was on Obama's side on this one and thought he was being attacked unfairly. Then I found out more about it.

When the Planned Parenthood defense of Obama is broken down it comes to a different way of saying that a present vote was there as a safe vote. Safe means duck. The explanation here about planned parenthood wanting present votes instead of no votes to encourage moderates makes sense but barely. I can't see a moderate getting much cover by saying libs voted present too.

I believe Obama had the option of voting no and could have taken it even if Planned Parenthood asked him to vote present. NOW says they wanted Obama to vote no. Planned Parenthood is only a lobbying group. Obama was the legislator and decided for himself.

The Planned Parenthood defense only covers seven votes out of the present votes. There were many others. Hillary points out that on many occasions Obama's present vote was the only one. On other occasions it was one of only a few. So the Planned Parenthood defense doesn't convince me.

I don't have first hand knowledge of how the Illinois legislature works but I've been waiting for an explanation and all I get is this safe vote stuff. There's no difference between that and saying he ducked it. I'm all ears if somebody has an explanation other than a present vote shows dissatisfaction with an otherwise good bill. If Obama was dissatisfied he could have and should have voted no. Why not? Doesn't a no vote show a sponsor that his bill isn't good enough?

If Obama thought a popular bill had an unconstitutional provision his duty was to vote no. That included a bill about sex shops. If Obama has the courage necessary to lead he should have said tonight if he voted against the sex shop bill because it was unconstitutional. If he said that no matter how popular a bill is he would vote against it if its unconstitutional he would have scored big points with me and shown he has the courage he claims to have.

I really like Obama and hope he comes out with a better explanation for the votes.

[K Gardner]

128. Creek, my issue really wasn't about the present votes. I understand it is a

confusing issue and even though I've read about it, I'd like to find an explanation I can understand, too. Any Senator is going to have a voting record or record of not voting, or whatever, to defend from attack.

My issue was that to get to the issue of "present votes", one didn't have to go through the "sex shop/children" issue. It was really a disgusting example to use and it was done with full intent of how it would "play". That was all :-)

:hi:

[Bread and Circus]

83. hear hear.

[SecularNATION]

86. Clintons = LUST for power

Hillary and Bill Clinton's lust for power is so great, they will stop at nothing to get the nomination, even if it means the Dems lose the general.

[Samantha]

87. It was a true low blow

There is no defense.

[allinktup]

95. So... NONE of you can actually defend her

I find that so funny. You can volley all the attacks at him, but in the end you ALL know that it was a cheap ploy.

Thanks.

[HughMoran]

96. OMG

You were so vulgar during the debate! :hi:

[fujiyama]

98. Cool!

Good for Obama!

Go sex shops!

Seriously, Hillary will likely get the nomination, but if this is any indication of how she'll run in the general election, she is going to lose big - especially if it's John "The media still drools to me" McCain.

[Cha]

103. Not if a lot of us

can help it..can you will the sleeze bucket not to get it?

[leftstreet]

100. I missed the debate. Are we getting mandated sex shops?

:P

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. DU Has Changed A Lot

I have literally seen long time DUers tombstoned because they suggested other DUers were attacking Joe Lieberman just because he was Jewish...

Anyway I don't understand the vote...I'm a civil liberterian and have even been in a "sex shop" once or twice... But why would anybody oppose keeping them a clear distance from schools and houses of worship...That just makes sense...

[BootinUp]

110. All she is saying is he didn't vote for this measure.

she is not saying he is PRO sex shop. So far his explanation makes no sense.

[jackson_dem]

112. If Obambi can't handle his record being examined he shouldn't have lied about Edwards/Hill's records

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

113. Out of all his supposed "present" votes, why mention one about sex?

Why single out the vote on sex shops if you just want to point out many "present' votes? I'm sure there were other "present" votes on other issues that could have been used instead. Unless of course someone wants to campaign by sensationalistic and inflammatory sound bite.

[K Gardner]

114. Bingo. Edwards asked the question in a dignified manner, like a presidential candidate would.

Hillary thinks nothing of wallowing in the mud and dragging everyone down with her.

[Jamastiene]

116. I'm sick of THIS shit already.

If this attitude I am seeing among Obama http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4057783&mesg_id=4058023">worshipers is any indication of what an Obama presidency would be like, I certainly don't want to put up with THAT for 4 solid years. His name is Obama, not Jesus Christ. He is not immune to questions being asked of him.

If he didn't think it was important enough to vote against something, then it means he's fine with it or sorry as hell. Take your pick. It doesn't really matter.

Btw, this is not Illinois. I don't give a rat's ass how y'all do it in Illinois. This is a federal election. He needs to get with the program. If he can't handle this, he's not our candidate for the GE. Period.

[K Gardner]

117. Sorry to wreck your premise, but I'm voting for Edwards. However, I'm sick of dirty

politics. If you're a Kucinich supporter, you should be sick of them too. The point was not answering questions, it was the despicable question that was asked, if you'll read in the subthreads.

[William769]

121. Are you not the same person who posted this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4157605&mesg_id=4157605

Then got the hell out of dodge when it blew up in your face? :rofl:

ON EDIT: And even though now it been brought to your attention your still not there! :rofl:

[K Gardner]

122. Uh.. I posted an article, not my opinion. It was for people to read if they wanted. Sorry

I haven't been sitting in front of my computer like a dork without a life for the several hours that have passed since I posted it. I had to cook supper, feed my grandchildren, go to the store, do laundry and various other things that have to do with real life. I cannot for the life of me understand your sickness and pettiness. But again, typical of a Hillary supporter.

[William769]

123. But you found time to post in other threads!

:rofl:

ON EDIT: Typical of your kind. :eyes:

[K Gardner]

125. Let me guess, you're 16 and just got home from your special school. Nice !

[William769]

126. Just keep digging that hole!

:rofl:

[William769]

120. Then he should not have voted present.

[David Zephyr]

124. Obama handled her graceless smear like an adult. This will backfire on Hillary bigtime.

And when Bararck mentioned his daughters, you could see Hillary's face cracking as she realised she'd (again) gone down the wrong road.

The audience cheered Obama's response.

Hillary looked terrible.

In fact, it might have been a pivotal moment in the debate.

[MethuenProgressive]

130. It's Hillary's fault Obama didn't vote to keep sex shops away from public schools? Link?

And the OP calls her a racist?
ObamaNation has lost their teeny tiny minds...