John Kerry And Jesse Helms

[DrFunkenstein]

I think this little gem from the Boston Globe profile demonstrates how a flaming liberal like Kerry builds bridges with the centrists in his Party, and even further across to the other side of the aisle.

---

Kerry had spent the spring conducting an unauthorized investigation into reports that the Reagan administration was illegally providing aid to the rebel Nicaraguan Contra armies, which were attempting to overthrow the left-wing government of that Central American nation. At this closed session, he planned to urge the committee to launch an official probe.

...

Behind the scenes, Kerry had forged an unlikely alliance with Senator Jesse Helms, the hidebound conservative from North Carolina. As the senior Republican on the committee, Helms was the key to Kerry's hopes. And the key to Helms was the drug war.

In the course of their investigation, Kerry and his staff had found evidence that some contras had ties to drug smuggling. If there was one class of villain that Helms deplored as much as the communists, it was drug traffickers.

On matters of political philosophy, Kerry and Helms were polar opposites. Yet each was something of a maverick, contemptuous of the capital's courtiers and willing to rock the clubby Senate. "I spent time with Jesse," Kerry recalls. "I talked to him. Talked his language. Jesse didn't believe the same things I did in many cases, but he was a gentleman. He was a man of his word."

As Kerry finished his presentation, the senior members turned to Helms, taking his temperature on the issue. "Jesse? What do you think about this?" asked Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on the panel, according to a transcript of the then-secret session. "I know you are a contra supporter."

"I will tell you what I do not support, and John Kerry and I have talked about this: anybody sending drugs into this country," Helms told his colleagues. "I do not care whose side they are on."

Helms was on board. The committee reached a consensus: It would investigate the contras and the contra-drug connection.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml

Follow up (oddly enough) in a Windsurfer Magazine article:

Jesse Helms entered the senate elevator with John Kerry and me. In my eyes, I conjured up preconceived images of this man who was reputed to have singlehandedly challenged free speech and artistic expression. I watched him in silence-a silence that could have easily continued without acknowledgement.

To my right, Senator Kerry broke in and said something I can't recall and Jesse Helms responded. Again, I can't recall the words but I remember the tone-a tone that surprised me. There was a familiarity to their voices, a tone of respect, of understanding and even affection. After their brief exchange, Kerry introduced me and I shook hands with the legend.

As we greeted, I looked into his eyes and caught sight of a frail and elderly statesman. Something changed in that brief encounter-something which made me realize, in retrospect-John Kerry does not burn his bridges. No matter how bad the battle rages, there is a clear truce of civility that binds these political gladiators.

http://www.americanwindsurfer.com/mag/back/issue5.5a.html

[DrFunkenstein]

1. Kick For The Effort

n/t

[leyton]

2. Interesting article.

I wasn't politically literate when Jesse Helms was a Senator from my state, but from what I understand he is liked not so much because of his conservatism but because he is a gentleman who is close to his constituents. (I think it's the same thing that kept guys like Strom and Zell in the Senate for so long too.)

[slinkerwink]

3. I don't want the Dems to give into Republicans---I want them to stand up

and refuse to accede to any Republican.

[DrFunkenstein]

4. Do You See Kerry Giving In? He Friggin' Got Helms To Go Along With HIM!

Seriously, why do you spend all your time just slamming Democrats, especially when you don't even read the original post?

[slinkerwink]

6. I really don't like Jesse Helms

[DrFunkenstein]

9. Do You Think I Do?

I think the man is an amoeba on a flea on a rat.

[Scott Lee]

22. Yes.

Otherwise you wouldn't be using him as a fine example of who Kerry should be working with.

Be careful about getting to close to the rethugs. At some point you get some on ya.

[The Magistrate]

31. Clearly, Dear

You avoid getting too close to serious thought and understanding, on the same principle.

Built into the normal function of the Senate is the necessity to gain assent in many instances from persons who hold wildly contrary views than one's own. It is a mark of high skill in a legislator to be able to do so; one who cannot is not worth his salary, or the votes of any supporters.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

32. by pandering to republicans, we've lost races in 2000 and 2002

and it shows a lack of spine to stand up for the ideals of the Democratic Party. There's a reason why bipartisanship is a moot point, because in the House, Republicans control the agenda and ignore the Democrats. We need to pick up more seats so we can successfully push our agenda out there by controlling a majority of the House and the Senate.

[blm]

75. So, Kerry should NOT have spearheaded an investigation of the contras

if the only way it would have happened is with the cooperation of one Republican on the committee?

How would that have served the country, slinkerwink?

[edzontar]

86. That is not what she said.

nt

[blm]

97. She charged working with repubs was pandering

to them. Black and white accusation.

If the point of the article is that Kerry talked Helms into agreeing to the investigation, then WHERE does ANONE justify being angry about that as evidenced by the poster's replies?

The accusation of pandering was blanket, and offered no understanding how any good was to be had from Kerry's effort. I'd like to see that explained LOGICALLY.

[slinkerwink]

114. because it sets up precedent for them to steamroll over us,

and we haven't done any steamrolling back to them because we continue to let the republicans get their way.

[sangh0]

115. Getting Repukes to help us investigate Repuke crimes

sets a bad precedent?

Since when?

[slinkerwink]

117. I'm talking about acceding to Republicans on bills such as the

partial birth abortion ban.

[sangh0]

118. You're talking nonsense, then

The thread is about Kerry getting Helms to help him investigate Iran/Contra, not abortion.

[slinkerwink]

120. no, the first paragraph in the thread was about how wonderful it

was that kerry could build bridges with others "across the aisle" which are Republicans.

[sangh0]

122. Wrong again

Here's the first paragraph, which is about Kerry and Iran/Contra

"Kerry had spent the spring conducting an unauthorized investigation into reports that the Reagan administration was illegally providing aid to the rebel Nicaraguan Contra armies, which were attempting to overthrow the left-wing government of that Central American nation. At this closed session, he planned to urge the committee to launch an official probe. "

[slinkerwink]

125. I disagree and look more closely

"I think this little gem from the Boston Globe profile demonstrates how a flaming liberal like Kerry builds bridges with the centrists in his Party, and even further across to the other side of the aisle."

[sangh0]

126. That's a sentence, not a paragraph

and using one sentence out of many is known as "quoting out of context". I remember when you were against that.

[slinkerwink]

128. because that's what the original poster was setting up the thread to be

as an example of reaching out across the aisle. In a study done about bipartisanship, more Democrats had voted for Republican bills than Republicans had voted for Democratic bills. It tells me that Democrats give in too easily

[sangh0]

144. SO now you read minds?

I remember when you used object to that.

Besides, that's NOT what the orignal poster was setting the thread to be.

[slinkerwink]

148. then even why put the first sentence that way?

:shrug:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

231. Why say anything ?

it might be misinterpreted or mischaracterized by someone else.

:wtf:

[The Magistrate]

129. You Are Merely Atomizing Text, Ma'am

It is an unseemly habit to rip a few words out of the whole of a piece in order to torture them into confession of the meaning you desire they bear.

To enlist the co-operation of Helms in an attempt to hobble an effort by Reagan at anti-Communism repesents skill in political manipulation of an extraordinary degree. That you affect not to understand this leads to real question whether you are suited for political action at any level.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

130. Please do not call me "Ma'am"-----that is condescending and sexist

[gottaB]

131. In the spirit of compromise, Ms. Wink

perhaps you could suggest an alternative honorific

[slinkerwink]

138. I do not want an alternative honorific---call me Slinkerwink or Slink

[The Magistrate]

140. And Who Are You, Ma'am

To insist your sensibilities are to be priviledged above all others? Many may not share your "slinker-centric" view of the world, and you have no right to impose that on them, for their views and sensibilities must be as valid as your own, originating in their different experiences and situations in this world....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

147. You do not have the right to impose your views on me or to call me

"Ma'am"---please cease and desist in doing so.

[The Magistrate]

159. 'From' Doing So, Ma'am

That is not a view, but the language, which insists one does not desist "in" doing something.

What we each have the right to do, Ma'am, is to insist on the expression of our own views and sensibilities to the limit of our abilities to do so, but neither has any right to impose on the actions of the other, or to expect agreement from the other. You have simply seized on a trifle because it seems to you a promising means of securing the sacred status of victim-hood, but your affront is a purely voluntary act, hardly dictated by the accepted meanings of the terms used, and it is easily within your power to react otherwise. It is also within your power to engage on substance --- to attempt to rebut the criticism that your focusing your efforts on smearing leading figures of the Democratic Party works to the benefit of the Republican Party and the worst reactionaries of our polity grouped under its standard. You do not attempt to do this, and indeed avoid it so assiduously as to make it a fair assumption that you do, in fact, concede the point that your interest is more in damaging the Democratic party than in defeating the Republican reactionaries. You may, of course, continue to concentrate on distractions and trivialities and personalities, complaining my comments are superfluous or insulting or any other thing you are pleased to do as a species of squid's ink over the real point in contention: it will not mean a tinker's damn to me, Ma'am.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

164. Do NOT call me "Ma'am"----how would you like it if I called you by

something that you didn't like repeatedly and ignored your calls to desist from doing so?

[The Magistrate]

167. Well, Ma'am

You would have to find something that had that effect on me. Feel free to experiment, by all means, but it is unlikely you will produce anything that rises much above mild amusement in its impact. It is difficult to insult people at ease with themselves. You might try that on for an approach to life; it pays good dividends.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

174. Do NOT call me "Ma'am"

[RetroLounge]

221. Hey Maggie, be a little more respectful

eom

[DoveTurnedHawk]

233. I Hereby Demand That You Start Calling The Magistrate "Lord and Master"

Anything else is just plain disrespectful!

DTH

[Duder]

154. And who are you, Maggie?

Are your sensibilities too privileged to disseminate a molecule of respect by addressing someone as they have asked to be addressed?

A pitiful performance, indeed.

[The Magistrate]

132. An Entertaining Diversion, Ma'am

But it would seem about played out as a tactical line. You are free to attempt engagement on substance whenever you choose.

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

137. Do Not Call Me "Ma'am"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

227. Why not? You object to people being polite to you?

:wtf:

[Hippo_Tron]

199. True but Kerry got Helms to go along with HIS agenda...

Not the other way around. Plus there's a difference between reaching accross the isle to work with the other side and just pandering to the other side. Zell Miller panders by signing his name on every piece of Republican legislation to make it look "bipartisan". However, there are REAL instances of bipartisan legislation such as the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform bill. Senators aren't bound in chains to their party's platform when they are elected, even Republican senators.

[blm]

124. You REPLIED to a post about Helms backing Kerry's IranContra investigation

And CLEARLY you must have understood that. You twisted it INTO something else to fit your desire to paint Kerry as someone less than he is.

[sangh0]

127. She want's to forget about Kerry investigating the BFEE

It contradicts the message that Kerry is BFEE.

[George_Bonanza]

211. Kerry voted against Partial Birth Ban

Getting Republicans onboard for righteous causes is NOT a bad thing.

[slinkerwink]

212. good to hear that! yes, but we can't accede to them on bills

like IWR and the Patriot Act because of the culture of fear of being branded a traitor if one does stand up to Bush. You remember when it was "unpatriotic" to question Bush right after 9/11? That was wrong, and it was a time of silence on the many Dems in Congress.

[edzontar]

135. Helms is an especially loathsome example.

I mean, he is no Lincoln Chaffee.

[sangh0]

145. Bull Connor was worse

but that didn't stop MLK from compromising with him.

[madfloridian]

42. Magistrate, a question.

In what context are you using
"Kill one, warn one hundred."

That is really odd out of context.

[edzontar]

58. I wish the Magistrate would explain that sig line too.

Posted without context, it is more than a little creepy.

[JohnLocke]

217. Not creepy at all.

The Judge is simply using the line as an addendum to his signature line. It's a expression - it means that if you make an example of one, othres fall in line quickly.

[Scott Lee]

87. Don't call me "Dear", Shnookems...

It is not the mark of skill to enable and appease the opposition while losing ground on one's own principles. That's called being a Quisling. And that's why the current Dem party strategem has been a loser.

[littlejoe]

192. There ARE worse terms of endearment, Scott Lee.

[citizen snips]

5. Jesse Helems is not just any republican.

If you lived in my state for a long time you would have gone crazy seeing him in the senate. Or at least that is what my parents tell me.

[ngGale]

54. I live in North Carolina too and the Helm's machine...

has helped throw more elections than you would believe. Purging the African American vote. It's already happening again at a couple of colleges. His power is well know in this state.

[XanaDUer]

8. Not possible...

As irritating as they can be, Republicans are here and have to be dealt with.

How do you think Dems helped stem the tide of ridiculous policies Republicans wanted passed? They don't just pick up their papers and storm out of the House or Senate and say, "Play my way OR else!"

You cannot even get a vote in both houses without a quorum.

[edzontar]

94. OH, like Kerry helped to stop the Iraq War by voting for it...

Tick, tick....

[XanaDUer]

98. Huh?

Eom.

[edzontar]

134. I guess you haven't received that memo.

Nt.

[XanaDUer]

168. No, I said "huh" because your posts are usually off the subject...

of what is being discussed.


Since you are talking about the IWR, if not for the IWR, Bush would not have had to go to the UN or even get inspectors.

There would be no talk now about questioning the faulty intelligence of WMDs, nor any need to consider WMDs either.

All the President needs under the Constitution to go to war, is just a suspicion. He has up to 48 hours afterwards to voice his reasons to Congress. They don't have the authority to tell him he should or should not have done it.

Without IWR, Bush would have been totally free, and it would be less possible for the Dems to oppose him in November based upon his lies.


I guess *you* did not get the memo on how our government works.:eyes:

[Evil_Dewers]

104. I don't want the Dems to give into Republicans---I want them to stand up

and refuse to accede to any Republican.


Yeah, like when Howard Dean stood up to the NRA. ;)

[sistersofmercy]

7. Nice article DrFunk!

Yes, Kerry can manage to cross over without surrendering his beliefs. How are you, btw?

[DrFunkenstein]

10. Kerry Can Find Common Ground To Push Through His Agenda

This is exactly the kind of bi-partisanship that will push through Kerry's health care package and renewable energy overhaul. Creating a hostile Congress will just create a frozen Washington and nothing would get done. But Kerry doesn't go for the cheap political points of slamming people for just being Republican (acting like a Republican is another story).

The fact of the matter is that there is a GOP majority in Congress. It's already going to be an uphill climb. I think Kerry's experience on the famously-bipartisan Foreign Relations Committee gives him a real edge in knowing how to deal with Congress.

[sistersofmercy]

11. Agreed

Kerry's bipartisanship is the key, he gets what he needs done.

[Scott Lee]

14. PNACers always find common ground with each other

I don't see the big feat here.

[MessiahRp]

213. Kerry is NOT a "PNACer"

What kind of ridiculous slander is that? Here's a nickel, buy a clue pal.

Rp

[BeFree]

12. A sign of good politicing, this one is....

One reason I will be happy to support JK if he is the nominee, is the fact that he will be able to get things done. He won't be wasting a lot of time figuring out who is who, and what's happening. He's gonna be able to move fast against the great weight leaning on our democracy.

[Scott Lee]

13. You want to build "bridges" to fascist rethugs?

Well you go right ahead. In the meantime I shall work to throw them out of power.

[slinkerwink]

15. let's actually help elect more Dems to the House and to the Senate!

so we can work our own agenda through without pandering to republicans.

[Protagoras]

79. Wow so we'll be as extremist as the neocons

And dismiss the fact that half the country has concerns that differ from ours...and quickly alienate them at each and every turn...refusing to ever work with them, galvanizing their hatred of us for our high handed arrogance.

Sounds like someone else to me. Sounds like a surefire ticket to having no policies past and serving only 1 term as well.

Or... maybe the Big Tent party should have a thinking approach to politics where we try and draw people in and show them how our policies benefit them...but I guess that won't be possible if we spend all our time spitting in their faces and yelling at them, calling them names, and telling them how filthy they are and that we would never ever ever work with them in any way because we don't want to be tainted. Damn reality...damn getting things done...just as long as we can say we never accepted a vote or support from anyone across the isle. That's zealotry in it's highest form.

No thanks, I'm going to try and remember that we have a WHOLE country to worry about...not just 10% of the extreme. A president isn't supposed to just give a damn about 1/2 the country. That's the problem we have now. We need to have a larger vision.

[Scott Lee]

88. Their extremism gave us war, death, attack on civil liberties....

the list goes on. Do I care about being extreme in the defense of liberty and our rights? No. Do I care about being extreme in stopping the US war machine from killing and pillaging around the world and making us less safe by garnering more hatred toward us in the process? No.

Ironically, it was a Republican named Goldwater who said that extremism in the cause of liberty is no vice. For once, I would agree with a republican.

[Protagoras]

95. If your extremism is self defeating

and alienating to half the country...if it undermines your ability to get anything productive done...then it would seem that your efforts in actual defense of liberty would be pretty weak. A lot of sound and fury resulting in a 1 term presidency.

How do you win the war if you spend your time making more enemeis than friends? Learn how to work WITH others for YOUR goals.

[edzontar]

96. If Kerry's strategy of "working with the Pukes" is so effective

Why not keep Kerry in the Senate and run a more poractive LEADER for president?

Just wondering....

[Evil_Dewers]

106. Why not keep Kerry in the Senate and run a more proactive LEADER for prez

Yeah, like Frank Zappa. Too bad he's dead. He ate that yellow snow.

[edzontar]

133. What did Zappa ever do to offend you?

My god, has DU come to this?

[The Magistrate]

16. Be Serious, Mr. Lee

You do not work to eject Republicans from office; you work to defeat Democratic Party office-holders who you claim you cannot tell from Republicans, and attack the people who vote for them. Somehow this seems to include just about all major figures within the Party, and roughly four fifths of the rank and file voters in Party primaries. Indeed, Sir, denunciation by you of Republican figures, unaccompanied by simultaneous slurs on Democrats, are damned thin on the ground in these precincts.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

17. your superfluous posts are rather silly, SIR

[Scott Lee]

19. *snicker*

You know I was actually picturing you trying to say that....with a flourish of the hand and a ceremonious stalking off stage.

It was hilarious!

[The Magistrate]

20. Are You Sure, Ma'am, You Do Not Mean Supercilious?

Just trying to be helpful: as Mr. Twain remarked, the difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[mitchum]

25. I adore you, Sir

please don't ever lower your tone or tenor in order to please the groundlings

[madfloridian]

43. Groundlings.....are they like underlings?

:hi:

[sangh0]

63. No, underlings imagine they still have some dignity

.

[mitchum]

173. not at all

[Rose Siding]

46. No shit!

If we can't depend on the ostentatious to beat the drive out of the young, what good are they? Throw about the unchallenged charge of "uncompromising!" and summon the vaguely appropriate antiquated quote and you are, by God, the keeper of the status quo. Before you know it the whippersnappers would be thinking that a stagnant government could be slowly, and with great commitment, changed.

Party thread for maintaining corruption in Washington, anyone?

[littlejoe]

193. I agree. Although it is quite understandable, since many try hard to

impede the flow of rational thought and honest debate.

I have never been one to suffer fools gladly; a major character flaw.

I have admired your reasoned tone, often wishing I had that measured restraint.

Let's try to keep above the fray.

[slinkerwink]

26. do not call me ma'am-----I dislike your condescending attitude, SIR

What do you wear at the computer? One of those 17th century shirts, a wig, and a hand adorned with rings? It rings of sanctimony to me.

[mitchum]

30. Do you want him to use "conversating"?

Would that lessen the "sanctimony"?

[kiahzero]

228. Perhaps he should speak like this

KeRrY OwnZ0red th0ze R3p|_|kes!!!1

It's amazing how far discourse has fallen, that when someone speaks in a formal manner, they are accused of being patronizing and sanctimonious.

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

29. I meant "superfluous" because of the second meaning of "wasteful"

because I consider your posts to be wasteful in its condescendion and arrogance.

[madfloridian]

44. Supercilious would apply as well, probably.

I do think she meant superfluous, though.

[slinkerwink]

45. superfluous has a second meaning of "wasteful" and that is what I meant

[Rose Siding]

50. Pecksniffish would work, I think

though I rarely use it conversationally myself.

[edzontar]

59. Thank you for speaking so bravely from the dock, MA'AM!!!!!!!

I find that I seldom have the stomache to respond to this sort of superfluous, supercilious, holier-than-thou rhetoric myself.

Somebody open a window and let in some FRESH AIR, please...I'm stiflin' in here!!!!

[sangh0]

69. And once again, the bashers find themselves in the minority

I don't think you'll find many who share your opinion, except within the narrow limits of the IWW, and other organization associated with losing causes

[edzontar]

70. Huh? I don't get the IWW connection. And since when is it

A "losing cause" to criticize Helms?

[Scott Lee]

18. A thousand pounds of granite down your chimney, Judge!

The current crop of "Democratic" quislings in leading congressional positions and at the head of the party are well invited by me to step off into the dust of the history books, because their uselessness has been noted, and their time logged and done. I do not want, nor shall I deign to build, "bridges" with a warmongering fascist enemy or with their Democratic statist appeasers.

Ya want fries with that?

[The Magistrate]

24. In Other Words, Dear

As noted above, you are far more interested in assailing Democratic Party figures than in anything else. You have my thanks for the swift demonstration of the truth of my comments. Your invitation to the leaders of the Party to step off into the dust is unlikely to be heard, let alone acceded to, although the dust of history is doubtless something a modern day I.W.W. plumper must be pretty used to.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

28. it is interesting that you would rather that the Democratic party leaders

compromise their ideals to work with those who have redistricted fellow Democrats in Texas, with those who have supported Bush's agenda to the fullest extent......

[The Magistrate]

33. Compromise Their Ideals, Dear?

Heavens forfend. All the real damage is done by uncompromising idealists; you, yourself, are saved from this only by your remoteness from real power, and the absolute unlikelihood of your ever exercising any power over your fellow human beings. There is something almost touching in your apparent belief your ideals are shared by anyone else, particularly by any political figure capable of winning election to national office, and exercising the responsibilities of such office.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[slinkerwink]

34. please do not call me "Dear" or "Ma'am"---I find that insulting

and I have an understanding of what real power is. I doubt you have ever worked in a Congressional office, or that you ever attended Financial Services and Department of Homeland Security hearings. I was there when I found out that we were wholly underfunded for our own domestic security. I was there when the Republicans pushed the Democrats out of a House meeting room. I was there in DC when the Supreme Court legalized the rights of gays not to be arrested for consensual sex.

I am planning to run for Congress in a few years, and I have a summer internship with a Democrat in Ohio who is running for Congress. I know what my ideals are, and I will never compromise them to vote on bills that harm my constituents such as IWR, the Patriot Act, and NCLB. You, sir, are too quick to presume things about me that you do not know at all. I want to save my country, and I will do everything I can now to help save it. I will be marching in DC to save women's reproductive rights. I am glad to be a progressive Democrat, and in the future, I will do my best to make my country proud to have Democrats in a majority of Congress.

[The Magistrate]

38. Good Luck To You, Ma'am

You have not been addressed as dear; it is that fellow Lee who has gained that, and by some damned hard effort that it would be churlish to deny him the fruits of.

(On edit): My apologies, Ma'am. It does seem you became confused with the fellow mentioned above; that was an error on my part. These things will happen when the field gets so crowded with such similar displays of radical peacockery....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

61. You will be purged!!! You have DARED to question the infallible

Pronouncements of the chosen ones.

This is tantamount to treason!

Talk about the pot (or the pot's self-appointed mouthpiece, in this case, calling the kettel black,

Pathetic.

[dsc]

40. Most magistrates take personal responsibility

Instead you blame others for your errors. Nice example for you to be setting.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

47. "Kill one, warn one hundred " is his motto.

I think.

[slinkerwink]

49. but which ones is he saying is worthy of killing?

[madfloridian]

51. I asked but no answer.

In a post above I asked the context.

[slinkerwink]

52. interesting.....

[The Magistrate]

53. You Interest Easily, Ma'am....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

62. INDEED SIR!!!! It is a motto that reads like a threat against all those

Who would dare to question the infallible logic of our self-appointed leaders.

But their golden statues are raised on feet of clay, me thinks.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

66. And what is the source? Some Indian fighter? A British

General in the Crimean war?

Machiavelli?

Source please.

BTW--I'm not at all young.

[sangh0]

67. You're never too old to be naive

I heard it as a thousand year old chines expression, worded slightly differently. It was about killing the chickens in front of the monkeys, but since then I've learned that there are many variations.

[edzontar]

71. Then tell me, oh ancient and wise one, what does it mean in

This context?

PS I appreciate your effort to answer the question, but it was addressed to the Magistrate.

I wish he would tell us.

[The Magistrate]

102. Honestly, Mr. Zontar

There is rather a self-dramatizing quality in these protestations, would you not agree? Do you seriously imagine me capable of projecting myself down the wires and through the aether to erupt from the monitors and collect heads for adorning my garden fence?

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[sangh0]

103. It;s kind of funny

how those who complain about how the Dems won't stand up and fight the Repukes are so scared by a sig line

[edzontar]

139. I just asked about the line, "Kill one, warn one hundred."

For which I still have no answer.

Meanwhile, I'd say that your line about "projecting myself down the wires and through the aether to erupt from the monitors and collect heads for adorning my garden fence" is more than a bit self-dramatizing in its own right.

As are those SIRs and MA'AMs that you keep adding to your addresses, like Elvis in some of those early interviews.

[sangh0]

149. Be honest! You did more than that

Without knowing what it meant, you called it "creepy"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=412076&mesg_id=414918&page=

[edzontar]

160. Well it IS a creepy line to me, at least. SO, correct me....

I'm not the only one who asked.

I just wanted to know--BECAUSE I think it is creepy.

Gee, do I have to clear all my requests for clarification through you first?

[sangh0]

163. It would help

but it's no garauntee

Gee, do I have to clear all my requests for clarification through you first?

[Hav]

161. for lack of substantive arguments

People jump on people because of their sigline because they have to find something to attack.And please, no one tells me it was just an innocent question.
People jump on someone for being adressed Ma'am.
Some people have a hard life because of the mere existance of a certain Democrat on a Democratic forum.
For some, life must really suck.

[The Magistrate]

166. Ah, Your No. 139 Has Outted Me, Mr. Zontar!

Merely a well brought up old country boy, decently defferential to his betters....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[edzontar]

169. Fine. So PLEASE, kind sir, could you tell me where that

Quote comes from....?

[sangh0]

171. It's over a thousand years old

It's on the pyramids. You can check it out there. You might still not understand it's obvious meaning, but you can see that it's on the pyramids

[edzontar]

179. One thing I am reasonably sure of--it is NOT on the pyramids.

I studied Egyptology for many years.

That is not something I think is on there.

The outer stones were dragged off centuries ago, and while there are lost of things carved on the outer surfaces, they are mostly graffiti from Romansd and later travelers.

Inside oif the later ones there are some religious texts, but not that one.

[sangh0]

181. There ya go!

Inside oif the later ones there are some religious texts, but not that one.

[edzontar]

186. Are you familiar with the pyramid texts?

They have been published.

I'll betcha it's not in there.

[sangh0]

187. Try again

.

[edzontar]

195. Try what?

nt.

[sangh0]

196. again

.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

219. I remember the "treason" canard.

Those posts were not very charitable.

[JohnLocke]

216. Kick

[Scott Lee]

89. Did you hear what she said?

You might want to read her post again. Also, don't end your sentences with a preposition. It's un-Magistrately.

[JNelson6563]

207. The reflecting pool speaks true

displays of radical peacockery....

Thine Freudian slip showeth. ;-)

Julie

[edzontar]

60. So its the uncompromizing idealists that are the problem? SIR!!!!!

Would you include Martin Luther King in that sweeping, arrogant, and ill-considered statement?

Rosa Parks?

The kids who sat at the luncheon counters?

Nathan Hale, for that matter?

I would like to suggest, SIR, that the sentiment you have expressed runs counter to the ideals upon which this nation was formed.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

72. MLK knew WHEN to compromise, and also knew that he made

Mistakes--he was not infallible, nor did he consider himself to be so (a lesson in that for all).

But he ALSO knew that there are times when you HAVE to stand up, and THAT is what we saw so admirably in the Kerry of 1971-73, and miss so desperately today.

[sangh0]

77. But, but, a minute ago, MLK was NOT a compromiser

Now, once the facts have been brought into the discussion, MLK *WAS* a compromiser.

Let me know when you've made up your mind, and are willing to acknowledge your mistake. Then you can explain why this specific incident with Kerry was not the time to compromise but this time leave out the simplistic generalities and go with the truth. Some facts wouldn't hurt either.

[edzontar]

80. Let's get serious. MLK did not compromise on the BIG PRINCIPLE

He fought tooth and nail for the PRIZE.

In terms of tactics and strategy, he compromised as a necessary method of building and sustaining coalitions.

There is a big difference, IMHO, between that sort of compromise and, say, voting to send people to a WAR that you know is a LIE because you think it will cover your political ass.

OR, for that matter, embracing a destructive and hypocrtical DRUG WAR to make time with a pig like Jesse Helms.

These are not so much compromises as moral failures of the highest order.

[sangh0]

81. Talking to Helms is a BIG PRINCIPLE?

Not protesting when a women is arrested for not moving to back of the bus is a SMALL COMPROMISE?

Since when?

Since when is talking to Helms a compromise of principle, and exacly which principle is that? Remember that MLK talked to Bull Connor, and other racists.

There is a big difference, IMHO, between that sort of compromise and, say, voting to send people to a WAR that you know is a LIE because you think it will cover your political ass.

I guess you forgot we were talking about Helms, and not IWR. Let's change that sentence to "There is a big difference, IMHO, between that sort of compromise (MLK talking to racists) and, say, Kerry talking to Helms"

Yeah, that make sense!

OR, for that matter, embracing a destructive and hypocrtical DRUG WAR to make time with a pig like Jesse Helms.

That's pretty funny seeing as it was Kerry who investigated the links between our govt and drug suppliers

[edzontar]

82. The Drug War is a miserable failure.

Kerry was a hero in the early 70s, and by the way (no thanks to his advocates here) I plan to vote for him if he is the nominee.

As for the rest of it, I guess I have a higher opinion of Dr. King than you do.

[sangh0]

99. Changing the subject?

You can't admit your mistake, so instead you pretend that you have a higher opinion of MLK than I do. If that were really true, you'd know about the many compromises MLK made. If you really had a high opinion of the REAL MLK (and not the fantasy you have in your mind) you'd learn the facts

100. nobody knows the Real MLK

it's all subjective

what is reality anyway?

it's all fantasies in the mind

facts are always open to dispute

etc
etc
etcetera

[sangh0]

105. If you say so

I always find "someone on the Internet" so convincing

107. exactly

so why bother attacking someone regarding who knows the real MLK better in the first place, as you did?

Seems there is some level of trying to convince someone of something even if the someone is a someone on the internet.

& as "someone on the internet" I'm just as convincing as you are another "someone on the internet"

I'm also making the assumption that you are intelligent and understood what I meant in my first post even as you try to brush it off with flippancy.

Is that assumption a mistake?
Is the act of making that assumption a mistake?

[sangh0]

110. Woulkd you like a cite

Try Taylor Branch's trilogy on the Civil Rights Movement. He writes about how MLK decided against making an issue of the young lady who was arrested for not moving to the back of the bus.

And no, I did not understand your first post. Regardless of what you think of the "real" MLK, there are certain historical facts which are provable no matter what you think of MLK, and one of them is that MLK considered compromise essential, and did not hesitate to reach compromises with those who were opposed to him and his goals.

112. Subject: that's more like it!

Citations are fine, an excellent thing.

That you did not understand my first post is not a sign of lack of intelligence by the way, even if I phrased the question that way.

communication breakdown

On the question of compromise -- Not compromising on principles and Compromising on tactics are not mutually exclusive positions.
I think you are talking about compromise as relates to tactics and edzontar is talking about compromise as relates to principles. So where is the contradiction?

[sangh0]

113. Makes no sense

Not compromising on principles and Compromising on tactics are not mutually exclusive positions.

Some here claim that a compromise on tactics IS a compromise on principle. What you are now calling "compromising on tactics" (ex. Kerry talking to Helms, MLK talking to bigots) was what edzontar called "compromising on principle.

116. try this then

Speaking for myself, not edzontar.

The principle is integration, the tactic is whether you push it immediately as with Rosa Parks or pause.

Whether you push or pause, both actions, does not contradict the principle of integration.

Two different tactics, the same principle.
A tactic of compromise without compromising on the principle of integration.

Am I explaining myself better?

[sangh0]

121. Yes, and I agree with you

A principle can support both of two options. That was my point too. It was edzontar who said that Kerry "compromised his principes" by talking to Helms, not me. I understand the difference between principles, strategy, and tactics. It's the one's who complain about how others are compromising their principles who seem confused as to what a principle is.

[edzontar]

151. You are not authorized to speak for me.

nt.

[edzontar]

146. Kerry compromised on principle re: the Iraq war vote

Screw Helms.

[sangh0]

The thread is about Helms and Kerry. Not IWR

Funny how so-called progressives can't seem to think of anything but the past

[edzontar]

157. Helms and Kerry is FURTHER in the past than IWR

And I can talk about anything I want.

Nyah......

[edzontar]

143. I have read Branch's books, and many others....

History is a process..as are people's lives.

Who ever argued that MLK never made mistakes?

I merely observed that in the long run, he stuck to his guns.

JEEZUS

[sangh0]

152. Straw man

Who ever argued that MLK never made mistakes?

1) We are talking about compromises, not mistakes. You said MLK didn't compromise. You are wrong, but you won't admit it.

2) So you think you know better than MLK that you call his decision to wait for Rosa Parks a mistake?

[edzontar]

158. This is getting pointless. And NOTHING I have said is anywhere

NEAR as wrong or generalized as your inference that the IWR vote and the War it spawned are "in the past."

Last I checked, people are still dying there, as a direct result of that vote.

[sangh0]

165. The IWR vote wasn't in the past?

Is it in the future?

I guess you don't want to talk about how Kerry, unlike any of the other Dem candidates, successfully investigated the BFEE and got several of them convicted with the help of Jesse Helms.

[edzontar]

172. This post you just posted is in the past.

So is everything as soon as it happens.

If you are arguing that the past is somehow irrelevant to the present or future, I would have to disagree.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

180. I am not rising to that one.

Scott Lee is a fine man and in my opinion, was no disruptor.

[sangh0]

183. You think so?

Someone disagrees

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=132514

[edzontar]

200. What does that have to do with me?

Is that my tombstone?

I think not.

Still here.

[regnaD kciN]

214. Agreed!

This is disgraceful.

I remember when DU was a good site -- back when the "Underground" part of it meant something. Then, The Powers That Be decided to institute the gag rules prior to the 2002 midterm elections (not that such forced loyalty did any good in the big picture, where the Bush-enabling of congressional Dems led us to an historic debacle), and DU suddenly changed to The Democratic Cheerleading Society, in which Democratic Party affiliation, not adherence to historic Democratic values, was the only consideration. The whole atmosphere of the board changed, and not for the better.

I was expecting the same thing to happen when the latest loyalty edict came down in the next few weeks. I was not expecting, however, to see it begin to happen so soon, with banning of good and loyal members for not being devoted enough members of the John Kerry Fan Club (motto: "We'll be right behind John...no matter which way he's facing!"). Sad. Right now, this site is about as "Underground" as the corporate board room at the Democratic LOSERship Council, where "we only want the world to know/that we support the status-quo." Maybe the whole concept of "Democratic Underground" should be tombstoned. D.U., R.I.P.


:-(

[edzontar]

142. Thanks for the injection of sanity into this silly exchange.

nt.

[sangh0]

155. You see 56kid? edzontar didn't understand it either

He thinks you're saying MLK made a mistake by waiting for Rosa Parks.

[edzontar]

162. You do not speak for me.

I'll say it again.

191. I just got back from a root canal

I'll let edzontar speak for himself.

[The Magistrate]

119. To Answer Your No. 60 Above, Mr. Zontar: Yes

Uncompromising idealists throughout history do far more harm than honest rogues out for the best they can get for themselves and their pals. The latter can be dealt with, detered, managed, even come to know satiety; the former can only know triumph or end broken in the dust with their followers.

Do you imagine, Sir, all humanity share your ideals, or that all idealists are at the side of the angels? Idealism is no synonym for the good. Its operative definition is merely the valuing of ideal conception above material reality, coupled with the resolve to bring material reality into conformance with the ideal conception, whatever the difficulty or cost to the material being operated upon. All the great killers of the modern era were idealists, who simply valued ideals you may not share, such as racial purity or national power, or who grasped the extremest logics of ideals you may think well of, such as revolution or justice.

In this present context, of course, it is not such grand crimes being spoken of, but rather the harm uncompromising idealism can do to the power of a political tendency, by establishing a permanent claque devoted to harming those elements of it not pure enough for the idealists' taste, and by alienating great numbers of people who might otherwise align with that tendency. Most people, Sir, are not idealists, but rather view them as other-wordly irritants, and react to their imprecations with scorn. This sentiment is more justified than not, to my view. It is the kiss of death in a democratic polity for a political tendency to be marked with the brand of idealism in the popular mind, for there it is most importantly viewed as synonymous with impractical, and that is the last thing anyone wants to see in governance, that most supremely practical of businesses.

"Men never do evil with such enthusiasm or viciousness as when it is done for conscience sake."

"Saints should be judged guilty till proved innocent."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[edzontar]

170. I think your brush paints too broadly.

The history of social change movments--read Branch for example--makes it clear that movments work on several tracks, and that the more activist, uncompromising element can be just as important --or even MORE important--in the long run as the step by step compromising route.

Indeed, change is unlikely to happen without some activist pressure, as history has shown repeatedly.

[sangh0]

176. You don't know what your talking about

You repeatedly bring up "the more activist, uncompromising element" but you still haven't named one. The only one you named, MLK, was in error.

Like your theories, your "facts" are contradicted by reality

[slinkerwink]

178. let's see----how about the civil rights movement? There were many Dems

who wanted the black civil rights movement to be left up to the states alone.

[edzontar]

201. Nation of Islam. SNCC. Carmichael. Malcolm X. Panthers.

Ever heard of them?

[DrFunkenstein]

27. You Should Run For Office And Show 'Em How It's Done!

How long before you start lining people up against a wall?

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Calling Democratic Candidates "Horse Face" Is Not Exactly Subversive

As with most of the other vague slurs against Democrats that are brought up when you search through his posting record.

[Scott Lee]

23. I apologize. I meant "BOTOX horseface". My error.

[DrFunkenstein]

36. Ok, Now That's Subversive

You are truly on the political vanguard.

[Scott Lee]

90. I do my part.

[Duder]

35. Let's hope his leadership skills have improved

Kerry's leadership in YPU was lackluster performance

[DrFunkenstein]

37. The Article Is Good For Gems Like These

"But wasn't Kerry later elected YPU president? It is true that he got elected. It proves much less then you think, however. First of all, the YPU presidency is a hard and often thankless job that very few people actually want. A person usually becomes political union president through some mixture of personal desire and Tammany Hall-like backroom deals. In my experience, very few political union officers get elected because they are liked or respected."

The guy goes on and on about how nobody wanted Kerry to be president, and yet...well, wouldn't ya know it? Kerry gets re-elected.

Brilliant.

[DrFunkenstein]

48. Anyone Else See The Irony In All This?

Kerry and Helms - polar opposites of the political spectrum can find a way of getting along, but a bunch of liberals can't get their sh*t together to screw in a lightbulb.

:think:

[gottaB]

57. that's the paradox of liberalism for you

from a realist perspective, two camps must be reconciled in order to form a reasonable opposition to the reactionaries: the pragmatists, and the quotlibertarians.

The trick, I should think, is to convince the pragmatists not to announce their intentions to do something about a problem, and then wait for the quotlibertarians to object to the predominant mood of do-nothingism in the face of mounting pressures....

[sangh0]

68. Some of us are NOT liberals

Some of us are a bit "wobbly" on that score

[edzontar]

73. You said it.

Do you consider Kerry a liberal?

A progressive?

[sangh0]

78. Yes and Yes

I don't consider those who are obsessed with past votes PROGRESSives.

[Forkboy]

84. no shit

[Scott Lee]

92. Correct. Often liberals can be faint of heart, and wishy washy.

These times call for something a bit more stout.

[sangh0]

111. And sometimes, their not even liberals

Sometimes, they are commies posing as "progressives" even though they can never seem to stop talking about the past.

[ldoolin]

229. There was this song, see...

"Love me love me love me, I'm a liberal"

Very appropriate.

[gottaB]

76. I misspelled quodlibertarian--

carry on

[blm]

74. Wellstone had the same type of working relationship with Helms.

That surprised people, too.

[edzontar]

83. Isn't Helms dead now?

I forget--didn't he finally get called back to the dark place?

[Scott Lee]

91. No, he's enjoying the white hood of his retirement

And is ever grateful for his working relationship with his friends like John Kerry.

[edzontar]

93. Too bad. Anyway I would not consiider his endorsement valuable

If the goal is to attract Dem votes, that it.

[Evil_Dewers]

108. I clicked on your profile:

[The Magistrate]

123. Thank You For The Notification, Mr. Dewers

Flowers are in order.

"I am a man of principles, Sir, and chief among them is flexibility."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sparkle]

136. WOW! Over a thousand posts and tombstoned.

[Eloriel]

202. That's getting more and more common

Check his posts on this thread and see if YOU think he deserved it.

[RetroLounge]

222. The purge continues

eom

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evil_Dewers]

150. Is this the beginning of the purge?

I hope not. BTW, I have nothing against Zappa; I'm just sick of the Democratic Party being its own worst enemy and DU'ers attacking Kerry as not being "progressive" or calling Kerry Jesse Helms' "good friend."

What a crock of shit!

[sangh0]

156. The Democratic Party is not it's own worst enemy

and the poster who was tombstoned was not a Democrat. It was a disruptor.

[edzontar]

177. So now we have folks with a few hundred or less posts

Crowing over the tombstoning of long-time members.

Ungracious and I fear, ultimately self-defeating.

[sangh0]

184. No, we have folks with an unexplained sympathy for disruptors

.

[edzontar]

188. I won't turn on him , if that is what you want.

I didn't consider his posts here to be disruptive.

[sangh0]

190. Stay loyal to your disruptive freind

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=132514

[edzontar]

194. Gloating is not very attractive.

nt.

[sangh0]

197. OK, so I'm not attractive

Sue me

[edzontar]

204. Are you also known as sangha? You sound just like him.

Just wondering?

[RetroLounge]

223. i before e, oh knowing one

eom

[mitchum]

185. Call me Mr Crow

:)

[Hav]

189. .

We shouldn't be happy that someone who in pretty much every post insulted Dem candidates or posters here?
That tombstone was well deserved whether this poster had 1000+ posts or not. He was a disruptor, nothing less.

[mzmolly]

209. Ridiculous! I fail to see anything here that merits a tombstone for Scott

:shrug:

[RetroLounge]

224. He questioned Kerry

get used to it..

[mitchum]

225. Yeah, right

Mistuh Lee, he dead :)

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

208. Yeah, I know the feeling. Though I'll miss Mr. Lee round *these* parts.

:(

[edzontar]

218. He still has the freedom to speak in other places.

I'll be seeing him---and in greener pastures to boot.

[Hav]

153. it was about time...

[mitchum]

182. WHAT A GLORIOUS SIGHT! sic semper pissantus

:)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

230. Thank heavens

That was my opinion from post number one of that disruptor.

85. when i was a cook....

the waitresses always used to say that they deserved to get such good tips (and as a result get paid more than the cooks even though without the cooks there would have been no money to be made) because they had to put up with the public and be polite to them even when there were customers who were assholes. They said that this took real skill and I tended to believe them.
Then I spent some time as a bartender where I discovered what the waitresses were talking about, since bartending also involves dealing with the public. I also decided that I had been conned by the waitresses because the essential skill required was of being nice & polite to someone you didn't necessarily have a high opinion of & to stroke them in such a way as to get what you wanted out of them. But all three of these things were easy enough to do, especially the being nice and polite part. I realized that this was no special skill because most people learn this skill in high school and if they don't they certainly run into problems later and there is no way that they become a United States Senator.
Giving credit to Kerry for having a skill that I'd wager a substantial number of senators have doesn't really prove much.

[The Magistrate]

101. An Excellent Point, Sir

But allowance must be made for variance in personality and character. Some people are so constructed that they actively value being outside any large group, for they cannot feel they are distinct individuals unless in disagreement with the greater part of their fellow creatures. Such persons court alienation as a desireable good, and will go a good distance out of their way to create it for themselves. There is nothing particularly wrong with this over-all, for any such judgement is dependent on circumstances, but such persons are peculiarly unfitted for political action, particularly so where elections and legislating are concerned. These endeavors require the assembly of the largest possible blocs of persons identifying themselves as a group, if only for the moment votes are cast, if any success is to be had. People afflicted with the "indie music scene" view of life, obsessed with calculating who has "sold out", and resolved above all else to avoid that dire fate for themselves, can never be any good at it. Indeed, they cannot even understand the requirements for success, or comment intelligibly on the process.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[nolabels]

109. Pretty easy to understand seeing how helms was an obstructionist and......

a moralist, Kerry caught him at point in time when Helms and his moralist side was stronger, probably had something to do with Helms feeling betrayed by Raygun not fully implementing the Reich wing agenda on full tilt. Sounded like opportunity to me. Kerry along with most politicians are opportunists.

This comes as no surprise, just as Kerry being shut out in the end when the real meat of Iran /contra scandal was coming in and on. The millionaire legislator class (US Senators) saw Kerry a threat and a climber. Figure he would step on their toes if they let him continue, so they cut him off. Not that hard to figure out.

[littlejoe]

205. I'm just sitting back, marvelling at your open-field running, sir.

You make it look so easy!

206. off topic?

I've been thinking about what you wrote here for a bit. Nothing I disagree with really, but I don't know as you really addressed my point
Giving credit to Kerry for having a skill that I'd wager a substantial number of senators have doesn't really prove much.

You're writing about persons who court alienation as a desirable good.
Fine, but that's not really who I was writing about (except in passing).

So despite the rhetorical power of what you're writing in your response, it seems a bit off topic to me.

[nolabels]

210. There is also this little word called "intent", but one must also ........

learn to pick the proper time and place. This comes from the flailing, scars, slights, underhanded rug pulling, etc, etc. Being off topic compared to seeing how he might be, demonstrating that everybody is not cut from the same mold? That is the debate

[The Magistrate]

215. You Touched On Several Points, Mr. Kid

My purpose was to amplify those portions of your comments that seemed of largest importance to me. My target here is a tendency displayed by some persons to treat as nefarious the ordinary processes of political life, by which it must proceed in the absence of gunfire, and which even in that latter state still have some relevance. To view these ordinary activities as some form of heretical back-sliding from pursuit of the pure, and declare any who indulges in them evil to the core by virtue of that, seems to me a counter-productive foolishness, that when it leads to some to concentrating their vitriol on Democratic Party office-holders and officials, has the effect of assisting the worst elements of reaction in our polity, gathered together under the standard of the Republican Party. These, it seems to me, are the only ones who stand to make any real gain by attempts to slur and smear Democratic Party figures, and that is so whether these attacks originate from left zeal or reactionary fervor.

"I am a man of principles, Sir, and chief among them is flexibility."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

226. The responses on this thread

illustrate clearly that some are simply not capable of rational thought.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

232. This Thread Is Freakin' Hilarious

And one piece of news, in particular, is extremely welcome to me.

DTH

[Moderator]

234. locked

became inflamatory.