DU Has Pushed Me Towards Dean!

[earthsea wizard]

I came here, having voted for Dean in my primary, but not really a "Deaniac" by any means, and in two or three days of reading and posting, I've been pushed into a hardened support for the man based on the reaction I've seen here from Kerry supporters.

Dean is no longer an option, but for me, Kerry is loosing his appeal quickly. I see this place as a small microcosm of the hardest Democrats in the country, and if this is what kind of hard support Kerry creates, then I hope he has an ace up his sleave because I don't see Kerry building strong political coalitions to attract voters beyond the Dem base.

[EXE619K]

1. Demos just don't get it.

Only Independents can truly appreciate Howard Dean.

Political ideology takes a backseat to doing the right thing.

Dean 08'!

Woo-Hoo!

[XanaDUer]

3. I think you mean the coveted Independent swing voters...

Eom.

[janx]

You're right. I registered Dem because of Howard Dean.

Too bad they don't appreciate it or want my vote.

[On the Road]

19. "Only Independents can truly appreciate Howard Dean"

Maybe that's why I'm such a Dean supporter.

I don't want a president who will simply legislate the top five items of each constituency group. That's what Bush is doing on the Republican side. It's not a good way to run the country.

I want someone who will think through what the country needs, adapt to change, and develop a coherent agenda. That's what I see in Dean -- an independent, clear-thinking executive with the right priorities.

That may also be why I'm less excited about the candidates from the Senate. Their job is to propose, support, and represent, and negotiate, but not to govern. We know Kerry can lead a military team and Edwards can run a law firm. Hopefully, one of them will adapt and become a good executive.

[quaker bill]

53. Excuse me then

Democrat here. I get Dean and he will still have my vote March 9.

[TiredTexan]

2. What has pushed you

away? I was a Deaniac as well, and still believe he was the better candidate. But I'll still vote for Kerry, and read here very often just for the news. I've been around for over a year, and post very rarely because it seems every time I do, I inadvertantly offend someone in ways that I never intended. Being shy anyway, people firing back and saying ugly things and insulting the intelligence of others keeps me just reading most of the time. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that it is just limited to Kerry supporters.

[mdmc]

7. everyone is more of a jerk on line.

Earlier I changed my avi to hh Dali lama to remind myself to be a kinder, gentler poster. Currently I use this photo of Howard Dean as my avi.

[earthsea wizard]

9. What is pushing me away from Kerry

is the down right nastiness of some of his supporters in this forum.

MAN!

I'm not naming names, but I've seen people with Kerry avatars saying things like "Dean is a loser who should go home and hide" or "Dean is irrelevant and has no place in the party" or "Dean is a disgrace and an embarrassment to all Deams."

What the fuck is that about?

And it has all come from Kerry supporters, each and every time.

[Langis]

13. Dean is a loser who should go home and hide!

<------------- :)

[earthsea wizard]

16. You're just being cute

you saucy flirt.

[paulk]

42. you've been here since Feb. 27th?

Are you for real?

[earthsea wizard]

136. Your point?

Oh. I'm "new."

[paulk]

138. Yes, that's my point.

And apparently you agree with it. You make a sweeping generalization based on three days of observation and expect to be taken seriously?

If you want to bash Kerry, you'll have to make a more credible accusation. "His supporters are mean" is not only too subjective, it's really not much of a criteria to base your vote on.

[earthsea wizard]

141. You assume too much

First you assume that I agree with your point.

Then, you assume that after a couple of days reading I'm unable to make a judgement.

You assume that I want to bash Kerry, you assume that the goal of my post was to shape your opinion about me, and you assume that it is upon said criteria concerning Kerry supporters that I intend to cast my vote.

Your entire post was a series of assumptions. Assumptions and factual errors.

If you had read the post, specifically the very first sentence, you would know that I already have voted, that I voted for Dean, and that this all preceeded my arrival at DU.

I came herelooking for a forum to broaden my knowledge of Kerry and Edwards. It doesn't take long to get a first impression, and my first impression of Kerry supporters on DU is mixed, but leaning towards the negative.

That isn't true of Edwards supporters, nor of Kucinich supporters. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and I have found several Kerry supporters who don't like Dean, but chose not to be rude or abusive about their support.

Those here who have experienced the same things as I have will take me seriously, those who see with an honest eye may take me seriously, and others, for whatever reason, will not. That's not my concern.

My concern is exactly what I described in my original post. You can accept that, or not.

[paulk]

145. I assumed you agreed with my point

because that's what you said. If you were being sarcastic, then you need to indicate so.

you wrote:
"Then, you assume that after a couple of days reading I'm unable to make a judgment."

This is not an assumption, it's an observation - that any judgment made after only three days wouldn't have much credibility.

you wrote:
"You assume that I want to bash Kerry, you assume that the goal of my post was to shape your opinion about me, and you assume that it is upon said criteria concerning Kerry supporters that I intend to cast my vote."

I do assume that you want to bash Kerry, because that's what you did.
You say in your first post that you're being pushed away from support for Kerry - since you'd stated that you'd already voted in the primaries what else could you be referring to but the general election?
Considering that there are a whole host of Dean supporters on this forum threatening to support a third party candidate, isn't this a logical assumption to make?

I asked if you were for real for a reason - in the last year and a half there has been a constant influx of Dean supporters whose sole purpose on this board has been to trash any candidate who wasn't Howard Dean. When you start a thread after being here only three days saying that you're being pushed away from Kerry by his supporters, why should I assume you're any different?

If your purpose here truly is to learn more about the candidates, then I apologize for my assumptions. I think, however, you might be better served in this endeavor by visiting the Kerry and Edwards websites.

[earthsea wizard]

149. Assume nothing

Third Party?

Not Dean, certainly! Dean has said NOTHING other than that he is a Democrat, and will work WITHIN the party.

If a Dean supporter goes third party, well...they have every right to vote with their heart. The way I see it, if I'm following Dean, then I do as he does, and stand within the party for change within the party.

But I recognize that not everyone feels this way, and that not every Dean supporter started out as a Dem, so I can understand why they might not end up hanging out where they don't seem to be wanted.

I have zero intentions of going to a third party this year. I'll give Kerry, or whom ever carries the nomination, my vote, and see what happens.

Pass them the ball, and lets see if they got game.

In 2006 and 2008, I can't make that promiss.

[liberalnurse]

125. That is my experience too.

Let it be known, we ain't going to take it anymore....and most of all, we won't vote kerry.

[LiberalFighter]

112. It isn't just Kerry...

It is most of the supporters of the all the candidates. They all want their candidate to win the nomination. What they all don't realize is that even if their candidate became president they wouldn't necessarily accomplish the goals that they were supporting. What is important is that a candidate is in office that is more likely to support the values and goals that most of us support.

In addition, there are people that have their own agenda and feel that only their views are important and the right one. They will feel offended because they feel as if they are not as important or sufficiently important in the eyes of their peers. I remember an special election in '89 and our candidate brought in outside people to run her campaign. They had their plan on how to win but the long time politicals in the different counties were saying that was not how they did things. What they didn't understand was first... these people were trained how to win... and second... how many elections have they won at that level? Campaigns have more than just electing a candidate... they have to cater to the locals that think they know everything.

[mdmc]

4. Thanks for voting for Dean

And don't worry about Kerry; he'll do just fine. :~)

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. Welcome back!

Even if I didn't have some very real reasons for opposing Kerry as a candidate, some of his alleged supporters here would have driven me away in a heartbeat.

[Seldona]

89. Funny, that is exactly how I feel about Dean.

The simple assumption that anyone not supporting Dean is a helpless sheep who is totaly at the beck and call of the media pretty much did it for me.

There is very little respect for others opinions from the Dean camp. None that I have seen personaly.

And this thread is just more proof of it.

[slinkerwink]

6. vote for him march 2nd, and on march 18th, he'll be forming a new

coalition to help elect progressive Democrats back to office.

[LiberalFighter]

113. I'm supporting Dean on that and whoever gets the Dem nomination

Both are important in defeating gw*

[Alenne]

8. You have something in common with most Kerry supporters

Some of them say the same thing about Dean supporters. A lot of the supporters of the candidates on DU take their support to an obnoxious level.

[janx]

14. I disagree.

Take your sigline, for example...

[Alenne]

24. You are entitled

[salin]

96. BINGO!

and it has escalated. And because person a (supporter of x) said "blahblahblah" against candidate y and persons who support y... then person b feels completely - self-righteously even - that it is fair to be as (or more) obnoxious in a posting against candidate x and/or supporters of candidate x. Reading poster b's post... five supporters of candidate y get outraged... and feeling self-righteously correct give a body slam to all supporters of candidate x. Reading those five supporters body slams... eight supporters of candidate x get outraged and feel completely vindicated to ... and so on and so on and so on.

It isn't just the obnoxiousness. It is the self-righteous and snotty attitudes that bad behavior is completely justified and SHOULD be engaged in regardless that it only escalates and feeds into the attrocious... even toxic... atmosphere in this forum.

Have yet to see a group that has not engaged in this behavior (while fewer in the DK camp do this... they to do it from time to time.)... okay I take that back - didn't see it from MoselyBraun, Lieberman, Sharpton or Gephardt supporters - but they were never here in great mass to begin with.

[Zomby Woof]

10. I would never think DU causes necrophilia

[oxymoron]

12. LOL!

that summed it up.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[mdmc]

18. I don't get it

but I love the Grateful Dead.

[AntiCoup2K4]

21. or any other thread for that matter.....

:eyes:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duder]

30. Meow...

:eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

36. Woof

[janx]

40. I want troof

finally.

[Zomby Woof]

41. you can't handle the troof

But no matter, I have fun posting it anyway.

[janx]

43. Your opinion is not troof.

It is only your opinion.

[Zomby Woof]

46. that is so... profound

I forgot the rules. If a Dean person says it, it is truth, but when a person a bit more... skeptical of Dean says it, it is opinion. Ah, I see now.

Enlightenment. :smoke:

[edzontar]

56. Tough words coming a font of such profundity......

Stale and bitter coffee, sez me.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[edzontar]

55. Here Here!!!!

nt.

[Zomby Woof]

23. it's relevant

The original post is blather, so I am just giving it what it deserves. Dean is politically dead, and it is disgusting watching all the necrophilia in here. :-)

[earthsea wizard]

27. OK, so rudeness is nonpartisan

and affects the supporters of other candidates.

Glad you proved me wrong. I'm sure your mamma is proud. :)

Still, the great majority of those I have seen revert to rudeness are Kerry supporters.

[Zomby Woof]

34. Rudeness is as rudeness does

Isn't it rude of you to bring up Kerry supporters? Perhaps that is your not-so-latent bitterness showing? I don't support Kerry anymore than I ever did Dean, but Kerry's supporters have class and brains, and get civil replies from me when they disagree. Try it sometime.

[mitchum]

118. Thank you, ZombyWoof...

you are a gentleman (despite the carping of a very few)
Oh...pretty damn funny also:)

[slinkerwink]

31. Dean isn't politically dead----he's starting a new organization march 18th

so please stop all this talk of necrophilia.

[Zomby Woof]

35. tough

You all wanted the restrictive rules, then when they were used against you, you wanted them repealed. You all have had your way long enough. Get a thick skin and a helmet, because I will continue to flog Dean's battered legacy all over this forum, and make references to necrophilia, Jim Jones, and whatever else is a valid metaphor for the miserable failure that is Howard Dean. "Yahoo".

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Zomby Woof]

45. yes, you're on to me!

Or rather, I like to make sure the drawer stays shut in the morgue.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[RetroLounge]

71. Oooh. Ouch!

Score one for Troof!

RL

[JNelson6563]

159. Wow just think!

All the time you will devote to trasing Dean could be used to accomplish something useful. How very sad.

I guess that is what one does when one's whole world is virutal, accomplish virtually nothing accept maybe a sense of self-importance. Hey, whatever gets ya through, yanno? ;-)

Julie

[Maddy McCall]

160. LOL! An internet forum member criticizing another internet forum member

for living in a virtual world.

Glass house, meet rock.

[JNelson6563]

165. There's a difference

between those of us who fit some internet time in between real life activities and those who don't have such scheduling conflicts cause they have no real life activities. You know, like someone who would announce plans of a long term smear campaign using every opportunity possible. That's damn sad. Even sadder would be those who admire or, at least, try to defend or laugh off such an unhealthy lifestyle.

I'd explain more of it for you but alas! Real life beckons. :hi:

Julie

[CTLawGuy]

59. if Dean is Dead, what does that make Dennis...

stillborn? Does that make you a pedophile necrophiliac

[Zomby Woof]

61. Dennis isn't a quitter

He is still campaigning, and was in the debate the other night. Plus, he has been finishing stronger in the recent primaries than Dean. If you are going to be tasteless, at least be accurate.

[edzontar]

81. Then why do some self-identified Kucinch supporters

Work so hard for the Kerry campaign?

[Zomby Woof]

131. I have never worked for the Kerry campaign

Not a dime or a dollar. But you go on and make stupid, baseless accusations with no evidence. You disgrace your Zappa avatar, but serve Dean's name well.

[edzontar]

157. I am proud of my Zappa avatar.

And believe that I understand and respect what FZ was about as well as anyone here, let's just put it that way.

As far as Kerry is concerned, I have only the evidence of your posts to go on.

[Zynx]

What the hell do you have against Howard Dean?

[WI_DEM]

117. these comments by you indicate

a pretty immature attitude from someone who likes, rather make that enjoys, labeling supporters of one of the democratic candidates for president in the most outrageous ways and using such a broad brush. Do you stalk from Dean thread to Dean thread to get your jollies. It is pretty sad.

[Zomby Woof]

132. and you stalk me

So who is sadder? ;-)

[edzontar]

57. Well I guess if its written in the Zomby annals of "troof"

Then it must be true.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[slinkerwink]

32. he could be-----who knows?

[XanaDUer]

87. Well, you're the one being "pushed" towards a dead candidate...

Are YOU trying to tell us all something? :shrug:

[earthsea wizard]

148. Yes I Am

I'm trying to tell you that Kerry may get my vote in November, but Dean gets my support.

Dean's political death, from everything I've heard, is prematurely reported. He may not be in the running for the Presidency, but he's working to change the party like a true blue democrat - from within.

The only thing Kerry gets from me is my vote. My money, my hopes, my energy, and all of my efforts will go to whatever activist campaign Dean leads into the next month.

Last month I was a voter.

Next month I'll be an activist, in whatever way I can.

I blace the reponsibility for that evolution primarily on Dean, and secondarily on those Kerry supporters on DU who fight so agressively against Dean that it made me start asking myself questions that I had not previously asked.

In retrospect, I guess I owe them a tip o' the hat. :)

[lurk_no_more]

75. With the first part of your screen name Zomby

I would've thought you above anyone would've understood the dean attraction to date.

It's the "Night of the living dean dead" on DU.



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[w4rma]

76. Btw, ZombyWoof is a great example of one of these Kerry supporters.

His sig shows, Kucinich, but it is my understanding that Kerry one of his top two choices. Mention Dean and he flames on.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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[w4rma]

83. You may be correct. Its a valid, if underhanded, tactic. (n/t)

[diamondsoul]

85. *blink* What "controversy", and why

are you the only person I perpetually see mentioning it?

[edzontar]

100. I have mentioned it a few times because it worried/s me.

I think it is important for each candidate to have a clear message, and for that candidate to be represented, formally and informally, by effective spokespeople.

When some of our friends appear to veil their intentions behind the mask of DK support, and in the porcess contribute to the alienation of people who might well be your allies-I would say that is worth worrying about, and discussing.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

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[Zomby Woof]

130. you understand wrong

DK is my only choice, and Dean ranked dead last. I have never ranked anyone in between.

There are plenty of DKers who detest Dean, but I am not a pansy about it.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[IronLionZion]

11. Dean's delegates will help shape the party platform

and his grassroots movement is helping win seats in Congress. I would still vote for the nominee (probably Kerry) in November and Dean has encouraged that of all his supporters. I've been a Deaniac almost from the start.

[nightperson]

20. "The hardest Democrats in the country".

I feel so scary.

[earthsea wizard]

22. Lol, sorry!

I mean...the most dedicated, hard core democrats.

It was a compliment! Mangled, beaten, chewed up and spit out, but a compliment!

[HawkerHurricane]

26. That's funny...

since DU pushed me away from Dean back in December. You can tell a lot about a candidate by his supporters, and Dean's supporters turned me off, hard.

Well, I get to vote on Tuesday. I wonder what my final decision will be. The Anti-Kerry's are working hard, they've almost got me convinced I should vote for Kerry. But the pro-Kerry folks aren't resting on thier laurels, they keep on trying to convince me to vote for someone else...

[earthsea wizard]

29. Strange,isn't it.

I wasn't here to see the behavior of Dean's supporters in December.

I can only go by what I see now. If it was anything like this, I can understand your jumping. But there does seem to be a need to dump on Dean these times, that is for damn sure.

[HawkerHurricane]

39. Not so strange, no.

It seems to be something people do in politics. Claim that their candidate is the 'real Democrat'; that the other is DLC/psuedo conservative...

All candidates dive left during the primaries; Dean just started earlier than anybody else. All candidates also move to the center for the General Election, trying to get the mushy middle to vote for them.

Dean, as governer, ran his state from the center. Kerry, as Senator, voted liberal (mostly). Once Dean started running for President, he talked left. Meanwhile, Kerry (I think) was setting up for a Presidential run, and started voting more centrist... So at the same time Dean was moving to the left, Kerry was moving toward the center... Dean also declared war on the DLC (not in those words); the DLC reacted by backing who they thought would 'teach Dean a lesson' (my words). I leave this with no comment to Edwards supporters, they have not annoyed me much. This might be because of a assumption on my part: that anyone who is rudely anti-Kerry must be a Dean supporter...

I say, vote for what you think is the best candidate during the primary; but PLEASE join me in voting against Bush in November. Please. This is very important; Bush is a menace and must go. I don't care who the Democratic party candidate is in November; any of them would be better than Bush. I look forward to the day when he's gone. And if the Democratic party isn't far enough left for you, or doesn't support everything you like, join me after the election in moving it in a direction you can support.
First we get control of our government away from the madmen; then we work out the kinks.

[CTLawGuy]

60. the Dean supporters were...

never as bad as Kerry and other supporters were to him. When he was the frontrunner, everyone was taking shots at him, left and right. this was before the corporate media ordered its hit on dean by order of the DLC.

[Zomby Woof]

62. LOL

As an objective observer who has never supported Dean or Kerry, I have to laugh at your assertion that the Kerry supporters were ever worse than the Dean ones. Kerry supporters endured all kinds of abuse last fall and even after New Year's about being toast, and that everyone should stop supporting their candidate now, and get behind Dean. Sinc Iowa, a few Kerry supporters may have been bad, but overall? No way. Dean's supporters win for the Sore Loser Crybaby Sour Grapes Award.

The anti-Dean sentiment on these boards, for which I am a proud standard-bearer, is just instant karma. Reap, sow, etc.

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. Oh give me a break

Kerry supporters were NEVER called cult members or compared to Nazis by Dean supporters. That was Kerry supporters attacking not only Dean, but his supporters. That's where all the bad blood comes from. Some Kerry supporters on here made it VERY personal.

[Zomby Woof]

66. but with Dean and his supporters

The shoe fits. The groupthink on the Dean Blog, and what has bled over to DU from it, is beyond frightening, and anathema to free-thinkers everywhere.

[KaraokeKarlton]

68. Thanks for illustrating my point to the person who started this thread

It's attitudes like yours that guarantees that hell will freeze over before I ever vote for John Kerry.

Puissez mon derriere...

[Rose Siding]

74. But ZeeDub

When free-thinkers everywhere combine their efforts to stalk, with cat-like agility, the object of their combined displeasure, have they not engaged in a form of groupthink? Is the result not the banishment of one form of group-think and the embrace of another?

Surely it's healthy that the prey objects and insists that its own autonomy be respected.

[edzontar]

80. Groupthink and persecution complex are the words

I would use.

Scary.

[KaraokeKarlton]

63. Yeah, some Dean supporters were harsh...but here's why

The same people turning you off right now were calling us cult members, telling us that we were too dumb to see who Dean "really" is (when it was them who didn't have the facts straight...go figure) and a couple of times I actually got compared to a Nazi. It wasn't just months upon months of those people attacking our candidate that caused us to become snarky towards them...they were attacking Dean supporters. You could say it got a bit personal. Because of Kerry's supporters here, I wouldn't vote for John Kerry if my life depended on it. He makes my skin crawl at this point.

[NNN0LHI]

67. And does Bush gives you a warm fuzzy feeling all over at this point?

You have now very descriptively told us how you feel about Kerry. Now, how do you feel about another 4 years of pResident Boosh? I never did care who won the nomination by the way.

Don

[KaraokeKarlton]

69. I honestly don't care anymore

I also live in one of the only states in the nation that isn't in dire straights right now. Ironically, that just happens to be the state that Howard Dean governed for over a decade. You see, Dean made sure that my state was ready to handle difficult times, because he has vision and believes in preventing potential problems before they happen. Even if Bush beats Kerry (which in all likelihood will happen anyhow because Kerry is a very weak candidate), Vermont is going to be alright.

Oh, and it's pointless to try to use guilt to convince me to vote for John Kerry. All you will gain by doing that is pushing me even further away than I have already been pushed. It doesn't pay to alienate voters, you know.

[NNN0LHI]

77. So you will be safe in your town in Vermont so screw everyone else?

Thats cool if you feel that way. But your method of showing compassion for others who may not be as fortunate as yourself is breathtaking to say the least.

Don

[KaraokeKarlton]

84. Too bad

Your party has brought this onto themselves. They made the bed by setting out to destroy the best candidate and now they get to lay in it. I, for one, am not going to climb into that bed, thank you very much. If you want to reward the shitty behavior of the party leadership by giving your vote to Kerry, all the more power to you, but I don't believe in rewarding undesirable behavior. I want change, period. I'm not going to get that change by enabling the status quo. The Democratic Party had their chance to earn my vote, but they blew it. My vote isn't "owed" to anyone for any reason. It is something that belongs TO ME. It is my constitutional right as an American citizen to utilize that right as I see fit. And frankly, you have NO right to try to tell me what I can, can't, should or shouldn't do with that vote. This isn't Saddam Hussein's Iraq elections, afterall. If the Democratic Party is so damn convinced that John Kerry is so freaking "electable" than why do so many Democrats get all bent out of whack when anyone says they won't vote for Kerry? Perhaps some should have been a bit more careful about alienating so many voters. :shrug:

[mountainvue]

90. Well as long as everything's okay in your state

the hell with everybody else. Maybe y'all should start your own republic.

[KaraokeKarlton]

91. I'd love to, can we only allow those who voted for Dean in too?

Vermont is a great place to live. Last year we had a 10 million dollar surplus, we have a great health care program, our seniors have had a drug benefit for quite some time now, gays have equal rights and they can even adopt in Vermont thanks to Dean. Even our Republicans are better than John Kerry. Hey, it's not my fault the Democratic Party totally screwed themselves by going after Dean. The rest of the country could have been on as solid footing as Vermont is if they had only had enough courage to do the right thing and vote for the best candidate with the most to offer. :shrug:

[mountainvue]

98. Problem is

Vermont isn't the rest of the country. It's not just about what you want and need. It's about what is good for everyone and what is workable. Just once, I would like to hear a Dean supporter place the blame for his demise where it belongs- with him and his campaign.

[KaraokeKarlton]

109. Oh hogwash...

Vermont is exactly like the the country many on here envision and would like to see exist. The reason my state is faring so well is because the politicians here actually give a shit about their constituents. They listen to us and we're all in it together here. It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum anyone here falls on, either. The sense of right and wrong is the same in all of us. It's not just some fluke that Vermont sends high quality politicians to Washington. Someone has to keep the rest in line. If the country had more politicians like Jeffords, Sanders and Leahy, and especially Howard Dean this country would be one hell of a lot better off.

Dean was doing his part in spades. It was the undermining of him by the party powers that be and the underhanded inter-party sabotage that hurt him.

As far as what is "workable"...Dean had all that right on the money. He was telling everyone the truth, that the tax cuts had to go in order to balance the budget, provide jobs and get universal healthcare and adequate homeland security. Now we have John Kerry making promises that anyone with half a brain knows full well he can't deliver. I'm sick of empty lip service and politicians who just tell people what they think we want to hear with no intentions of lifting their little finger to actually deliver. You know what...in all Dean's years leading Vermont he NEVER made a single promise to the people here that he didn't keep. He delivered EVERYTHING he said he would deliver. Now that is integrity and leadership. Too bad Democrats don't value that kind of politician. But hey, you get what you vote for, and in the case of John Kerry the country will get nothing. :shrug:

[curse10]

152. LMAO

If I ever end up living in Vermont I might kill myself. :puke:

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[whirlygigspin]

150. start your own Republic

Just to note: Vermont was the 1st Republic and 14th star.

[RetroLounge]

72. Reponses like these above yours make us not care.

eom

[Cleita]

28. I didn't read the rest of the responses

because this forum depresses me, however, I haven't had my primary yet and my vote will still be for Dean. I know our candidates got pre-selected for the rest of us who didn't have a chance to vote, but I won't vote for Kerry in the primary. I still want to have a choice and it will be for Dean.

[oxymoron]

33. Gosh

That's a great point. Maybe I'll base my vote on anonymous postings to a public message board too. Who needs those pesky issues anyway? :eyes:

[earthsea wizard]

116. Maybe you should READ before you RESPOND

I already voted. First sentence of the post. Hard to miss.

[Zomby Woof]

37. it is sad AND funny

That you can't make up your own mind about a candidate, and scapegoat DU for your decision. It is a reactive decision, rather than a pro-active one. If you can't push yourself toward a candidate, then perhaps poltics and independent thought is not your forte.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XanaDUer]

86. "The idiotic posturings of these mental midgets have become...

a topic of discussion in the wider progressive internet world.

These are the popel(sic) who are weakiening(sic) the party and serving the interests of Bush"



If this was true (which I doubt), and if I was you, then I would be afraid, very afraid about whom you call mental midgets.

:eyes:

[Scott Lee]

101. Holy Shnikeys! so bad spelling = lack of intellect?

The things you learn on DU.

[edzontar]

103. thanks Scott. They are in fact TYPOS--and the product of rushing

Too fast across the keyboard.

I never did learn to type too well.

[Scott Lee]

128. No worries. The thinking part is there.

Which is more than I can say for your critics.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

142. I sure wish that truck driver went ahead

He was a damn fool not to follow through, but then the oil slick on the road wouldn't have been worth it.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

102. I am not the most typo-free typist..that said...

The Kerry campaign is indeed suffering from a rather sour reputation as to the tactics and attitudes of his supporters.


Just look around here or some of the other progressive webiste.


I did not make that up--even if my words were garbled and emotional.

There are some self-styled provocatuers who bring out the worst in me.

[Rose Siding]

147. Did you mean...

"if I were you"?

http://grammar.englishclub.com/verbs-subjunctive.htm

[edzontar]

158. Dear Teacher: Since I can't read the original message

I will not be able to correct my grammar.

As my friend said, It seems like some people can't handle the "troof."

[fishnfla]

82. Maybe we should listen to the candidates more, and the supporters less

this is another of "candidate X's supporters turn me off to candidate X"

Well then, what of the candidate and the important things like maybe why he's running for president and his position on the issues?

[lyonn]

99. ok Zomby, we make up our mind

with what we hear on tv, forums, articles, debates, etc. DU I thought was a place to voice opinion and get other opinions and make a decision. But, not by a forum alone, now that's ridiculous and you keep making mention of that. I liked Dean because of what I heard him say, and what it appears he did in his own State. I was looking for a Dem. who spoke my language, meaning ideas, and he fit MY bill. Maybe I don't know the rules of the political game and that Dean didn't fit the bill. Still he spoke my language and I am a person that has voted Dem. and Rep. both all my long life. It was the issues. You are so silly when you catagorize all of us Dean supporters. I will vote Dem. no matter but I felt Dean was such a good Democrat, was speaking for ALL the people and so many issues that Bush has battered. Bush is truly destroying what America stands for and I can only vote for someone other than him and his "buddies". Amen. And I'm not religious. DU is a good place to speak your mind. I like it. Isn't that the purpose, not bashing.

[Capn Sunshine]

106. In retrospect

Had they known all the vindictive petty grief and ad hominem attacks they would be in for, maybe the Meetup for Dean group that asked you to leave would reconsider.

I'm sure if you email DFA enough times, they'll probably let you go to one, if you promise to sit at a table for one.

[Zomby Woof]

143. oh yeah

I attended Dean meetups as often as Bush showed up for guard duty.

[NashVegas]

163. It's Sad and Not Funny At All

That 30-40 people were able to turn a whole board into a place of stench where no reasonable, rational conversations were allowed to move forward.

[brendan120678]

38. Deaniac from the start...

I've been a faithful follower of Dean since very early in 2003. I was the first in school to have a Dean button on my bag. In fact, more people stopped to ask me who he was and what he was running for than people who actually knew who he was.

Now that Dean has "suspended" his campaign, I am not sure who I will vote for in the NY primaries this Tuesday. I know that Dean is still on the ballots, but now I am leaning towards Kucinich--especially since I personally know two of the five delegates running for him in my Congressional district (NY22).

[mdmc]

47. Welcome to DU! Glad to have you here.

I'm voting for Kucinich in NYS CD22 also. Who are the delegates for DK in the 22nd?

[slinkerwink]

49. welcome to DU! I'm voting for Dean in MA on March 2nd.

[mdmc]

167. Kucinich delegates in NYS CD 22?

Can you post the ones that you know? I want to know who they are. I could look it up, I guess.

[DrFunkenstein]

50. It Certainly Wasn't From Me

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but if I've ever seen a Kerry supporter that feels to rub people's nose in it, I've done everything I can to discourage it.

While I can't see it being likely, I obviously can't see every post. It's a shame if it really did happen.

As for creating coalitions, that has actually been Kerry's forte throughout his career, including this campaign. If people feel polarized against Kerry, it isn't because he has willfully alienated them. He has openly tried to create unity even with those that disagree with him on one issue or another.

[Cuban_Liberal]

54. You've been quite civil, Doc.

If you'd like the nicknames of some downright NASTY fellow kerry supporters, IM me and I'll be glad to give you a half-dozen...

[Jack Rabbit]

51. Welcome to DU, Ged

If Kerry is the nominee, I will vote for him. Bush is a threat to democracy; he must be defeated. The French Resistance, made up largely of leftists, took direction from de Gaulle, a sober conservative; there is no reason why to preserve American democratic institutions we should not support Kerry against Bush.

This is not an election where we need to or even should look for the perfect candidate. If Kerry will permit dissent without asking librarians from cast to coast what dissidents are reading, then we've won something precious. Otherwise, if he negotiates an anti-democratic trade pact or a misguided war, then we can hit the streets again; at least we couldn't be worse off than we are now.

[Piginzen]

52. I started as a Deniac

And I'll end as a Deniac. Kerry is just another insider. I'm sure he and Bush (both Skull & Bones) have it all figured out anyway.

Go Dean!

[RetroLounge]

73. Welocme to DU Piginzen

From a fellow Deaniac and Cubs Fan!

RL

[MoonRiver]

65. Our democracy gives you the absolute right to voice that opinion

and vote for whomever you wish. 4 more of * and you won't have that option, imho. That's why I support the Dem nominee. It looks like that will be Kerry. I also believe that Kerry will make a fine president, possibly one of the best in history. He has to undo much damage inflicted on US by *. I have full confidence that he can do this, plus bring about many progressive reforms, assuming he at least has a majority in the Senate.

[lurk_no_more]

70. And it only took 41 posts

Hmmmmm!“YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!”


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[earthsea wizard]

155. OK, how many posts am I allowed?

Its amazing, really.

Someone should do a study on the tendency of chat forum "old-foagies" to discount the opinions of "newbies," as if their lesser post counts had ANY impact on their accuracy. I think its an interesting social grouping phenom.

Do you think that people have no ability to judge accurately till they amass a certain number of posts?

Or is it that people who are new have no right to disagree?

I would bet you my next paycheck that if I had said something with which you agree, then you would be congratulating me on how on the ball I am.

Unfortunately, in chat forums--as is true most every where else--the accuracy of any one person is measured in direct ratio to the level that said person agrees with you.

:)

[pezcore64]

88. yeah

Yeah, one of my best buddies is a die hard republican and is salivating at the fact Kerry will be our nominee.
Glad im not the only one who sees it.

[HawkerHurricane]

92. That's funny, too.

Because one of my friends, a lifelong Republican, is happy that the Democrats are nominating Kerry, because he intends to VOTE FOR HIM! He's disgusted by Bush, and is glad the Democrats are nominating a man he feels worthy of his vote.

Repukes have been described as 'salivating' over Kerry, Dean, Clark, Edwards, Lieberman and Gore... I'll tell you what the Repubs want, they want the Democratic Party split into factions over who the best candidate is... They'd be happy with whoever the nominee is IF a large number of people swear they won't vote for him because of whatever. Repubs must be salivating RIGHT NOW over the divisiveness being posted on this board by the Anti Kerry crowd. They don't give a good Gawd Dang about who the nominee is, just so long as a large block of nominal Democrats refuse to vote for him. And they'll fund that block, and provide them with media support, and use that against us... and it will be Bush winning AGAIN, 45% to 43% (with 12% divided between Nader and the Greens).

Any excuse to bash the front runner. Any excuse (for Dean fans) to bash whoever is most likely to beat Dean. And I've been reading it hear on DU since September.

[KaraokeKarlton]

93. Tell that to all the Democrats who paid for that Osama Ad

And quit blaming Dean supporters for the divisions that exist. We weren't the ones sending out memos against candidates and calling their supporters names or making disgusting character assasination ads with Osama bin laden against anyone. The lesson to be learned in all this is that it's not very wise to alienate the largest grassroots organization in the history of Democratic politics. It's not wise to alienate the supporters of any candidate who open their wallets to break fundraising records.

Dean supporters have every right to refuse to vote for Kerry or anyone else they don't like. If you don't like it then write to the DNC and DLC and those who ran and paid for those disgusting ads and thank them for further disillusioning even more voters this time around. But hey, at least they are good at something because they suck at winning elections as was clearly demonstrated in 2002. For the life of me, I don't know why people listen to the boneheads. :shrug:

94. one answer

"For the life of me, I don't know why people listen to the boneheads."

probably because that's the only "electable" choice they are given

:evilgrin:

[HawkerHurricane]

95. That's it.

Go throw your temper tantrum, vote for somebody else, and I hope that Bush doesn't win because of it. Gawds above, you sound like the Green supporters before 2000.

I will vote for Kerry in the Primary, and the Democratic Nominee in the General Election. I will not allow the ranting and ravings of the Nobody but Dean crowd allow me to think that Dean is not worthy of office. If Dean is nominated, I will vote for him in the General Election IN SPITE OF HIS SUPPORTERS.

If we (the Democratic/Liberal/Progressive cause) lose in November, it won't be because we got fewer votes... it will be because we divided those votes between 3-4 candidates out of spite.

[KaraokeKarlton]

97. Not a Green, I'm a bona fide swing voter

I'm about as centrist as one can get. I never liked Kerry as a candidate in the first place because not only is he a weak candidate who will be incredibly easy to lampoon, but he's downright boring. I'm about sick of the attitude I keep hearing that people somehow owe their votes to the Democratic nominee. Sorry, but I don't give a flying fudgesicle what party a candidate belongs to...if they suck, they suck and I don't hand my vote over to sucky candidates just to try to prevent the suckier one from winning. Furthermore, if Bush beats Kerry, which he most likely will since Kerry is a horribly weak candidate, then the blame lies on the shoulders of everyone who voted for him in the primaries just because he was in Vietnam. I've never seen such a dumb reason to vote for anyone in all my days. The GOP has so much to attack Kerry on it's not even funny.

So, if Kerry doesn't beat Bush, just thank everyone who took part in nominating him and quit trying to lay the misplaced guilt trips onto people who choose to utilize their constitutional right to vote the way they see fit. :eyes:

[seaglass]

104. Just know that if it's Kerry vs. Bush, you are on the wrong side.

If you don't want Bush out, that's your choice. I know plenty of Independents who do.

[KaraokeKarlton]

111. Just know that I dislike Kerry JUST as much as I dislike Bush

and I won't be voting for either one of them. This is not just about "wanting Bush out", it's also about NOT wanting Kerry in. In my opinion BOTH of them suck equally as bad, just in somewhat different ways. Sorry, but I'm not voting for a candidate that I strongly dislike just to try to get rid of another one that I dislike equally as bad. Now, no matter how awful Bush is, I'm 100% positive that I'll be rid of him for sure in 2008. If I vote for Kerry (who I don't want any more than I do Bush) then I risk keeping someone I can't stand for 8 years instead of just 4. So, nope, I won't vote for Kerry and risk 8 years of a politician that turns my stomach. I'd rather sit this one out and see what my choices are in 2008.

[seaglass]

114. I'm not trying to change your mind, nor am I interested in

your justifications - I'm just telling you you're on the wrong side. You're not on my side, you're not on my family's side and you're not on the side of the people in this country - or for that fact, the people around the world who fear and detest our current leadership.

But that's ok, let it all be about you.

[KaraokeKarlton]

115. Nonsense

What makes "your side" the "right side"? If John Kerry becomes president his policies will be harmful to my family. He will force my children to do community service in order to graduate from high school. He intends to send another 40,000 troops to Iraq and the only way that's going to happen is with a draft. I have three teenagers, two of which who would be at risk for being drafted. Kerry will not get rid of all the tax cuts that are raping states of their ability to fund education and crucial social service programs. I have a family member who lives in Massachussetts and is homosexual. Kerry doesn't seem to think that family member should have the same rights he does and he wants to prevent progress in the area of that family member securing those civil rights.

So, again, my choice is coming down to how long I want my country to suck...4 years or 8 years. I can't bear the thought of voting for either one of these guys, so my best choice is just staying home.

[seaglass]

126. If you can't see the difference between Kerry and Bush

then there's no getting through to you, it's a colossal waste of time.

[KaraokeKarlton]

137. I never said there was no difference

I said they both suck, just in different ways. I dislike both of them equally and don't want either one of them leading this nation, but for different reasons.

[pezcore64]

121. well

well im glad your friends smarter than mine..but...
my friend is pretty die hard repub, like i say...even works in one of their offices in ohio(cant remember if its a rep or senater,sorry). he just said that was the general feeling in around there..they welcomed kerrys nomination with open arms.
he also said he couldnt wait to see the party split up..i explained it would only be a reshaping, and itll just be put on hold a lil longer now ;)

[HawkerHurricane]

122. Repubs trying to make the best of a bad situation

is what it sounds like.

Back in December, there were claims here that Repubs were looking forward to facing Dean... and Clark... "Repubs are afraid of MY Candidate, and want to face (Dean/Clark)". Funny thing is it was the Dean fans and the Clark fans argueing about it. "No, Pubs want to face your candidate because they fear mine." It was part of the general effort to cut down the percieved front runners. Now, we have an actual front runner, and (not accusing you) the same thing: "Repubs want to face Kerry, they were afraid of (fill in the blank)."

As for splitting the party...
Two old jokes, the first by Will Rogders:
"I don't belong to an organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
and
"You're trying to split the party!"
"Son, you ever try to split sawdust?"

[John_H]

105. Cool. Vote for Dean. Bye.

[earthsea wizard]

107. This is what happens when you respond to a thread TITLE

without reading the actual post.

I ALREADY voted for Dean, but when he dropped, I was seriously considering moving my support to Kerry or Edwards. I was influenced by the "Kerry's Electibility"

Unfortnuately, I don't think Kucinich has a chance. Not in this day and age. His Veganism is enough to lose him serious votes, and I say that as a long time vegetarian. It's completely stupid, but it's true, IMO. People are afraid of people who don't eat meat. We're too "extreme."

But I digress. Again, after a few days here, I'm more behind Dean's message than ever, which is the last thing that I expected!

I'll get behind whichever of the top candidates I think is the most populist. That was Dean. Now it's Edwards, based on his NAFTA stance. If Kerry wins the nomination, which looks to be a done deal, I'll hold my nose, vote for him, and then work for Dean's activist campaign in whatever way I can. The goal being to push the party towards Dean in any way possible.

Kerry will by a tool to get rid of Bush. Everything else about him is expendable.

[janx]

108. I'll be holding my nose as well. As a matter of fact, I might

need some kind of vomit bag to take with me when I vote in the general election.

Let Kerry clean up the mess he helped to create by enabling Bush*. (If he can win, that is.) And in the meantime, I'm with you--working for Dean.

[mountainvue]

146. By all means

don't do us any favors. If you're that troubled vote third party, make your statement and switch back to being a Republican next time. There's always Jebby and they say the third time's the charm.

[earthsea wizard]

156. US?

Do you speak for all Dems, or are you speaking for all Kerry supporters?

I just wonder who it is that is so willing to let voters go?

[Forkboy]

110. DU is pushing me away from Dems period

[salin]

119. and here I thought

du was just letting you hone your skills of pointed sarcasm twinged with periodic acts of performance art via reflecting back the more... er... silly arguments that get going...

[Forkboy]

123. oh yeah...that too

:)

[mitchum]

120. LOL!

I don't agree with you, but that was indeed funny and seemed...well...perfect in this thread:)

[mdmc]

124. hang in there, buddy

would it help if Dean took 25% of the delegates up for grabs on Super Tuesday? You heard it here first!

[Forkboy]

127. Not really

I don't like Dean. Sorry.

Now if DK gets them...... :)

[Monument]

140. You really support Dean because you hate online pro-Kerry posts?

What a way to pick our president! You're drawing a line in the sand based on events which have absolutely NO bearing on the candidates, the issues, the primaries, etc.

For gods sake, who cares what happens on a message board!

[earthsea wizard]

151. Did I say That?

You misread me.

I'm picking sides in a battle for the democratic party. I voted for Dean in my state primary, and will vote Dem in November.

But my short experience here has changed me, much like a sharp slap in the face from a pretty girl would change the intentions of her would be suitor.

It's just an analogy. Don't read too much in to it. :)

[whirlygigspin]

153. Dean Dean Dean Dean Dean

lol

[OnBackground]

161. Who?

So then, who?

[OnBackground]

162. Edwards Shot

Yesterday's Face the Nation featured a flashback to the 1984 Democratic primary offering John Edwards hope for the nomination. Because of expectations, Walter Mondale's victory in just two of nine states on Super Tuesday the press led with Mondale comback stories instead of the overwhelming coverage Gary Hart had expected for winning the remaining contests. Edwards' shot Tuesday lies not in a resounding victory in many states, as that seems unlikely, but in winning just enough to beat expectations and reenergize his campaign. We'll see.

[mdmc]

164. Welcome to DU

Thanks for the info and hope.

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

166. go third...

...and expand the independent voter base for the betterment of america. vote the issues or nothing will change...

[mdmc]

168. well, or follow Clark and Dean

and work for the Democrats

[ldoolin]

169. I find it interesting that...

...highly offensive and smarmy posts by the likes of ZombyWoof are allowed to stand, while reply after reply to ZombyWoof wind up getting deleted.

Very interesting. Casual observers of these forums should not make the mistake of assuming that deleted posts came from right-wing trolls or Republicans. Most posts that get deleted on DU (er..heh..DE - "Democratic Establishment") are from real liberals and progressives who take issue with offensive and hateful posts from DLCers, conservative Democrats, and other cockroach coddlers. The offensive posts are allowed to stand while posts from real liberals get deleted.

The Dean-haters who continue to flood DU with anti-Dean posts even after he has dropped out of the race should be held personally responsible for coddling the cockroach wing of the Democratic party, and for destroying the one best chance we had to take back the party from the corrupt party machine. That includes you Zomby even though as a Kucinich supporter I'd expect you to know better.

[mitchum]

170. Shouldn't whiny accusations of moderator bias be posted in ATA?

just curious

[ldoolin]

172. Whatever

:eyes:

[PassingFair]

171. Silently clapping...

and secretly smiling.

Still behind the last best hope of America, Howard Dean.