The two Johns opposition to gay marriage is hurting Indiana Democrats

[IndianaGreen]

by endorsing the bigoted agenda of the GOP.

Indiana Democrats in our General Asembly have been fighting off GOP attempts to amend our constitution to establish a 2-tiered citizenship, one for heteros, the other for gays.

Kernan urges GOP return to work

Associated Press
February 28, 2004

Gov. Joe Kernan said Friday that House Republicans should put the issue of gay marriage aside so the chamber could act on other issues in the final week of the legislative session.

"The point has been made, and it's time for the House and the minority party in the House to come back and do what the people of Indiana expect them to do," Kernan, a Democrat, said during his weekly availability with reporters.

The partisan dispute over a proposed state constitutional ban on gay marriage severely limited and in some cases prevented action on other matters in the House during the week.

The latest clash occurred Thursday, when Republicans walked out after Democratic House Speaker Patrick Bauer turned back all attempts to vote or extend debate on the proposal.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/124895-4187-092.html

[sangha]

1. Does Dean's opposition to gay marriage hurt Indiana Dems?

Marriage Issue Takes Center Stage at the Statehouse

"Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage."

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

[IndianaGreen]

2. Kerry is endorsing a state constitutional amendment

which Dean never did!

Dean bashing from some Democrats is apparently as fashionable as Clinton-bashing was among the GOP.

It is also a good way to avoid discussing the issues.

Perhaps Dean should take back his ABB endorsement because of all the abuse he gets in DU...

[sangha]

10. Avoiding the question

Dean opposes Gay Marriage, true or false?

Why doesn't Dean's opposition hurt Indiana Dems?

Dean bashing from some Democrats is apparently as fashionable as Clinton-bashing was among the GOP. It is also a good way to avoid discussing the issues.

If you really wanted talk about the issue, you wouldn't let your approval of Dean draw your attention away from the fact that he also opposes gay marriages

[IndianaGreen]

13. Dean is not running, and I am supporting Kucinich

Kucinich supports gay marriage, and he also wants to bring the troops home from Iraq. Kerry opposes gay marriage and troop withdrawal.

[sangha]

22. Still avoiding the question

If you really wanted talk about the issue, you wouldn't let your approval of Dean draw your attention away from the fact that he also opposes gay marriages and you certianly wouldn't defend him when his position on gay marriages is IDENTICAL to JK's and JE's.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Nice title rewrite

[IndianaGreen]

5. You are not a Hoosier, if you were

you would have known about all of this controversy which began last week with a GOP walkout because our Democrats refused to set aside the critical issues facing our state, such as the state budget, to discuss enshrining bigotry in our state's constitution.

The story I posted is only the latest installment in this ongoing saga.

Nice of Edwards and Kerry, particularly Kerry, to endorse amending state constitutions to establish an apartheid system for gays and lesbians.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Do I have to be a Hoosier to read?

It's pretty clear the title and your governor are placing the blame where it belongs...your agenda differs from theirs at the the expense of gay rights since if we had a Democratic president to the LEFT of Bill Clinton this divisive issue would be being FRAMED entirely differently from the TOP....DOWN.

Please keep nailing our foot to the floor.......we can make a movie about it "The Passion of Disgruntled Democrats."

[IndianaGreen]

9. You are reading one article out of the overall context

and since you don't live here, you have no way of knowing how this issue became an issue.

Our Democrats are ill-served by the Beltway Democrats when they go endorsing amending state constitutions.

Kerry should have spoken about equality under the law, and about how a state that denies a marriage license to gays and lesbians can also deny a teaching license, or day care license to people on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Kerry and Edwards's position on gay marriage makes them "miserable failures."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Kerry has invoked the "equal protection" clause

numerous times...the fact that you haven't heard him do it has more to do with the availability of q-tips in hoosierland (possibly) than with Kerry.

[JI7]

8. so gays already have these rights in indiana ?

so gays already have the rights of married couples in indiana ? because kerry only said he would support a state amendment if it also includes civil unions for gays and the legal rights to go along with it. this is something gays in most states do not have.

[IndianaGreen]

12. We don't want our constitution amended to setup gay apartheid

which is what Kerry is proposing: 2-tiered citizenship, one for heteros, the other for gays.

We have been fighting for equal rights for many years, and our fight has been made harder when Beltway insiders like Kerry enable the GOP's bigoted agenda.

We can't even get ENDA passed!

[JI7]

14. well, i had no idea gays were given marriage rights

in indiana. in most states gays aren't given the rights of married couples even if it's not banned in the state constitution or any other ban. they don't have the rights in the first place. california just recently got a law passed giving gays civil unions which give rights of married couples. it was one of the last things governor davis did before he was recalled. a few years ago california actually voted on an anti gay marriage proposition and most california voters, voted FOR it. i was disappointed by the large numbers that voted for the anti gay proposition.

i didn't know indiana gave marriage rights to same sex couples though. i'm kind of surprised since it's a conservative leaning state. it's actually disappointing that even california couldn't pass it while indiana allows for it.

[IndianaGreen]

15. No, we don't even have an Indiana ENDA

but the struggle for equality and dignity for Hossier GLBTs is made harder when the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination is giving aid and comfort to the GOP's attempts to amend state constitutions to turn GLBTs into lesser citizens.

[JI7]

16. Kerry supports legal rights

he said he would only support the massachusettes amendment if it includes legal rights of marriage under civil unions for same sex couples. this is something most states do not give. in california during the anti gay proposition our governor davis and both senators and all other top democratic officials opposed the proposition but it passed anyways in larger numbers. i'm glad we were finally able to get the civil unions passed even if it was with the governor rather than people voting for it. i hope kerry's influence in indiana allow allows civil unions for same sex couples since they have no partnership rights there.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Kerry doesn't support equal rights, he supports "separate but equal"

If Kerry supported equal rights he would have said that a state can not deny people a marriage license on the basis of sexual orientation anymore than it can on the basis of race or national origin.

"Separate but equal" is what we had in this country before the 1954 Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision which outlawed segregation in the public schools.

Unlike Kerry, Kucinich supports equal rights for all!

[JI7]

19. well, it doesn't really matter

because indiana doesn't give rights to gays to get married in the first place. i don't think it matters to you either since you supported dean and he never said "that a state can not deny people a marriage license on the basis of sexual orientation anymore than it can on the basis of race or national origin".

kerry does support giving the actual rights of married couples which most gays do not have.

and you are free to support kucinich if you want. i have no problem with that. i wonder why you don't support him though.

[IndianaGreen]

21. I will support any antiwar, anti-PATRIOT, and pro-gay rights candidate

as I indicated here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=409845&mesg_id=409988

[sangha]

23. “I’m against gay marriage.” - Dean 1/4/2000

Dean opposes gay marriage but is "pro-gay rights", but JK and JE (who also oppose gay marriage) are not.

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

" Marriage Issue Takes Center Stage at the Statehouse


"Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage."

[IndianaGreen]

24. Unlike the puke Kerry, Dean did not call for a constitutional amendment

establishing second-class citizenship for GLBT Americans.

[sangha]

27. Dean didn't call for an amendment allowing gay mariage

Dean has done NOTHING for gay marriage because he opposes it.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Dean has become the DLC's boogeyman

The politics of fear and distortion rule the Democratic Party establishment in the same way it does the GOP.

[sangha]

35. I guess you can defend Dean

because the fact is Dean has done nothing for gay marriages, so instead you make a personal attack. Pretty weak

[rucky]

4. This all started in State politics.

The battleground for this one is the states & municipalities. the Johns want it to stay there. nothing bigger or more sinister than that.

We're winning court decisions & actual marriages left & right, so what's the problem?

[JI7]

6. when the united states supreme court takes it up

the united states supreme court will take up the issue of whether it's constitutional for states to allow or ban same sex marriage and if we can get enough left leaning justices they will say it's constitutional and it will apply to all states. but if bush stays in office more scalia types will be appointed and then even states which do allow same sex marriage will be declared unconstitional by the right wing scalia led supreme court. not only this, but sodomy, abortion rights, separation of church and state will all be declared unconstitional.

[diamondsoul]

33. The problem is two-pronged.

One the damned Republicans in our State legislature can now point to Kerry and say "Look, your own likely Presidential nominee supports this!"

And two they're hijacking my G-damned legislature over it, and that pisses me off.

I'm am glad I wasn't the only person who had this thought because it seemed like this all started right after (or at the same time as) the Mass decision and Kerry's condemnation of it.

[PurityOfEssence]

17. Meanwhile, Rome burns

Everyone deserves respect and redress of grievances, but at times of extreme crisis, partisan self-interest is verging on selfishness.

Here's a nasty fact sure to make many howl: Gays are the only minority group that's made advances during this unholy administration; all the rest of us have seen setback after marginalization after divisiveness. As we stand on the cusp of an election that will either buy us some more time, usher in a new era of hope or clamp shut the lid of monarchic cultural and economic horror, we need to cool off on the strident wedge issues.

Gays are making gains. Women, non-religious folk, the disabled, Blacks, Hispanics and all sorts of other downtrodden subgroups are getting their asses kicked, and are largely keeping the eyes on the prize.

Leave the candidates largely out of it. Let the battles be fought on the lower levels; there's no way anything can be resolved before the election, so it's largely a non-issue. Yes, I said that.

Personally, I'm for Gay Marriage, and yes, the whole thing is an attempt to legislate an endorsement that non-heteros are not true citizens. Yes, it's insidious, just like the fetal assault legislation oozing its way through Congress right now.

Robert Scheer is right: no one should have to wait, and it's smug and unfair for those not living under that burden to counsel those who are to buck up and be good sports about it all. I'll tell ya, though, if I can be a nice guy on the subject of the creeping Theocracy (which is a MUCH greater abuse of humanity than the subjugation of gays is, much more dangerous, and much harder to fight) then others can lay off the candidates and bring their efforts to bear on the local and state level. There's plenty to be done there, and it's a handy way to unseat some nazis along the way.

History teaches us that this, too, shall happen, and it'll happen fairly soon. Then again, history also teaches us that crucial elections can change the course of nations for generations.

Take a hint: you're listening to quite a few gays on this board and in society who also want to deflect this issue at the moment.

Take heart, too: this is going to hurt the right--a great deal in the long run, and significantly in the next few months--because it's an act of hate and exclusion; for all of our collective faults, Americans just don't like that.

[David Zephyr]

20. The Only Person Who Sounds More Uninformed About Queers Than You

is your candidate, John Edwards.

PurityOfEssence, you would do yourself a big favor to stop posting about homosexuals.

Your pretense at magnanimity drips with with condescension and insults.

We'll get along fine without your "help" and patronizing "advice".

[PurityOfEssence]

29. Anyone who doesn't share your priorities is despicable, right?

To huff up and grant oneself the right to demonize allies who don't toe the party line of absolutism is a slap in the face of pluralism. Had you modulated your attacks, you might not have drawn such fire, but you've built yourself such a sanctimonious pedestal of moral superiority that anyone who questions your extremeness is a Philistine. Maybe I'm uninformed about a group, but you've got some serious learning to do about people in general if this his how you see fit to behave. You're not the only one or group hurting, and your ideas are not by definition right by virtue of your victimhood.

As it has been, you've raged with Fortissimo attacks at anyone who won't drop everything and demand adherence to a strict agendum (although a correct, fair and undeniably deserved one) with the mailed fist of bigotry-labeling held at ready. We each have the right to be as id-driven, impulsive and combative as we please, but the action among the group is, at the very least, inconsiderate. There's causality to life, ask Dean.

The very idea that you see fit to misrepresent and demonize anyone who doesn't share your priorities says something about your character, and lest I get grief for passive aggression as well, what it says is that you consider yourself more worthy of redress than the rest of us.

Is this issue more important than unseating George W. Bush? Is a glorious defeat anything more than that, and will the net result be better than a qualified and tactical victory?

Having been as much of an observer and participant in the rights movements and politics for awhile, can't you see that this is an inevitability? This will happen. Regardless of the retrograde motion of the fearful conservatives, Gay Marriage will happen. The hate-campaign of an amendment--if it's not just a bluff--will fail.

This is not to say that it'll just happen by itself; it won't. It will take hard work and probably some interim stages to get there, but it's happening.

Putting your foot down and demanding that anyone who doesn't rush with you to the barricades immediately is some kind of so-and-so is abusive. Am I cramming religious demands down the throats of the candidates? There's no way any of them'll accede to what I want on that, and if you don't think I've suffered job loss, hatred, physical beatings, and other assorted joys for my beliefs, then you're too lost in your own private world to really venture out into society in any sincere way.

You're the one who posted many demand posts flatly stating that anyone who didn't share your views was despicable. Differing with your views doesn't make me, by definition, less of a human being, and your contention that it does reeks of privilege.

I offer a bridge while expressing differences, whereas you demand strict allegiance at the threat of outright dismissal; that may make me condescending, but it makes you tyrannical.

Screaming and demanding that others drop everything to fight one specific battle is fine theatre, but it's nothing more than that.

[David Zephyr]

30. "Gays Are the Only Minority Group That's Made Advances" Under Bush!?

Your unsupportable and offensive comment in Post #17 where you actually had the gall to write that "Gays are the only minority group that's made advances" under the Bush Administration was the subject of my reply to that post.

I'd hope that you would read your very own words again and perhaps contemplate the gross insensitivity behind them.

Do you actually believe such utter nonsense?

Making insulting and degrading comments like that about an entire community of oppressed Americans is hardly building a "bridge" as you claim in Post #20.

Another thing you wrote, in case you overlooked it, was your concern of "the creeping Theocracy (which is a MUCH greater abuse of humanity than the subjugation of gays is". Why on earth would you say such a cruel thing? I thought I knew you.

I would be happy to take you to friends here in Los Angeles who were discharged from serving in the Armed Forces for over twenty years for being "queer", losing everything. Then we might visit the widowed who lost their homes to their partners hetero "families" after death. Perhaps, a visit to a friend whose companion was considered "untouchable" when he was buried. Those fired from their jobs for being only who they are.

Also, this statement by you about me is untrue: "You're the one who posted many demand posts flatly stating that anyone who didn't share your views was despicable." I'm the first one to admit that I ride a very high horse and do so proudly, but I've never "stated" to anyone here at the DU that they were "despicable".

Your post #17 was offensive and insulting. You should be able to recognize that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. With all due respect, what gains?

Rich people are the only minority who have benefitted from this administration. :D

[MurikanDemocrat]

26. Dean is also against gay marriage

Dean stand on gay rights and civil unions BEFORE the Vermont court decision in Dec 2000?:

snip from 12/20/2000


"Early assumptions following the Court’s December 20 decision were that domestic partnership is the only real plan of action. Governor Howard Dean has said on several occasions that he would support domestic partnership legislation, but is uncomfortable with the idea of actual gay marriage. Dean has recently clarified his position, declaring in a radio interview, “I’m against gay marriage.” "


http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/feb2000/news_centerstage.htm

snip

In the interview the Governor stated, "Since nothing is going to happen on this issue in the legislature until the court speaks there's no particular reason for me to take a public position on it." His attempt to link whether he makes his positions public to the actions of other branches of government is illogical and insulting. Failing any sense of responsibility on his part, the insistence of OITM and its readers' voting power should give him the "particular reason" he needs to decide to make his position public. Would environmental groups accept a refusal to take a position on clearcutting, NARAL a demur from supporting or opposing abortion, or even Wall Street a "no opinion yet" on capital gains taxes?

Clearly, Dean is either still waiting for the polling data to tell him his position, or he's seen it, and knows you wouldn't like it. But on an issue of fundamental civil rights, shouldn't "no position" or "secret position" be just as bad as the wrong position? The Governor is either with the GLBT community or he's against it. So far, he sure isn't with it.

More: http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jul98/deanoped.htm



Where did Dean stand on gay marriage AFTER the court decision?:
“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”

There are thousands more who are not uncomfortable and at least some legislative leaders said they would be willing to consider enacting a marriage statute.

More: http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

[maxanne]

36. tell me

what does all this Dean bashing have to do with the topic at hand? In case you hadn't heard - he's out of the race.

Dean is being treated by Democrats the way Republicans treat Clinton.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. What The Hell Are Gay People Doing In Indiana?

Don't they know what the Republicans are like out there?

[diamondsoul]

34. Phhht! Nevermind the Republicans-

other than State legislators we have to worry about the damned Democrats! LOL

Kidding, for the most part but there are a couple that a friend of mine says "Indiana Democrats....everywhere else they're called Republicans!"

[maxanne]

32. I'm sorry

for all the nasty responses you've recieved here, Indiana Green. I remember when we Democrats cared about civil rights issues. It's a shame they've become so "inconvenient." Apparently discrimination is okay - so all you activists just sit down, and shut up till the timing is right.

Nice to see Howard Dean becoming to some factions of the Democratic Party what Bill Clinton is to Republicans.