What's with all the Dean-hatred in LBN today?

[maggrwaggr]

Maybe someone who hates Dean can fill me in here:

Why do you hate Dean? Why would you spew hatred at someone who's trying to help the Democratic party, and therefore your candidate?

I really don't understand why anyone who was actually a Democrat would do this.

Unless you're not a Democrat.

Fill me in. Spew your hatred here. Let me have it.

[wryter2000]

1. Uh-oh

Better put on your rubber overcoat. I bet you're going to get a lot of spewing in a few minutes.

[maggrwaggr]

8. I'm ready. Let's get it out NOW, get it over with

[denverbill]

2. Today? How's it different today?

It's been like this for 6 months.

[eablair3]

5. Dean is not part of the "establishment" and was the biggest threat

Dean got some traction, was billed as "anti-war", was not totally in favor of Israel, was for breaking up the mega-media monopolies .... Dean was ahead in the polls for quite a while. He was the biggest threat to those in power in the Democratic Party. Accordingly, he was the target of an attack by all of these different but like-minded people and organizations. Dean is the threat those in power in the Dem Party fear most.

Now, they were successful in destroying Dean and getting their establishment, pro-war, pro-Israel, candidates in control once again ... or at least those who will "play ball" with them and vote for things like authorizing Bush to make war on Iraq, like Kerry and Edwards did.

If Kucinich had gotten the same type of traction as Dean, ... he'd become even more of a target than Dean. Of course, the establishment and big media marginalizes Kucinich at every turn.

[maggrwaggr]

7. I understand THAT, but why on DU is he the target?

Unless there's a ton of DLC people on here .... :(

[eablair3]

11. I believe there are a lot of DLC types here (nt)

[eablair3]

20. this place is not as "progressive" as you seem to think,or as it used to b

that's my opinion, anyway ...

I remember seeing and hearing about many more progressive type posters here being banned in the past here in a somewhat wholesale manner before they set up these new rules of warnings and so forth.

there are a lot of names of posters I remember here who are gone or are not around here any more.

[Cleita]

22. Double check the profiles section. Many are just not posting but

haven't been tombstoned. If they are banned, then they don't show up on the list.

[sangh0]

34. A Question

If the DNC is controlled by the evil DLC, why is Dean trying to help the party that is controlled (or just far too influenced) by the DLC?

[chocolateeater]

68. Believe it or not,

it's because he's a loyal Democrat and has been for most of his life. Maybe he also believes it's better to try to change the party from the inside and attempt to keep it unified, than to try and batter it into submission from the outside like Ralph Nader. Don't forget Dean is ABB.

[sangha]

93. Why be loyal to a DLC controlled party?

Does he think he can change the DLCers? They're corrupt Bush*-lites who are no different than Repukes. How is he going to reform them? Is he going to offer them more money?

[Eloriel]

95. How did he impact this race so far?

By talking about the issues -- HE framed much of the debate. HE prodded the candidates into criticizing Bush. Kerry even stole most of his lines from Dean and co-opted Dean's message. Dean's had a LOT of impact. And people are still talking about him -- on TV, in the print media, and here. The beat goes on ...

FYI, here's a glimpse of what's coming, to be announced on March 18:

Our new effort will seek nothing less than to change America by:

• Reviving our democracy and bringing new people into politics

• Supporting candidates and office-holders who tell the truth, stand up for what they believe, and oppose the radical agenda of the far right

• Fighting against special interests, and

• Fighting for progressive policies like health care for all, investment in children, equal rights under the law, fiscal responsibility, and a national security policy that makes America stronger by working with allies and advancing progressive American values.

snip

I will do everything I can to ensure that the 2004 Democratic nominee runs as a true progressive -- with an agenda for working Americans and their hopes for a better future. Because that is the way to win in 2004.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/003836.html

[sangha]

99. How? By losing

Dean had so much influence that Dem primary voters (more liberal than the avg Dem) voted for DLCers that voted for IWR, PATRIOT, and NCLB

Reviving our democracy and bringing new people into politics

"Reviving democracy"? Now there's a new one. I've never heard a politician campaign on that one before!

Supporting candidates and office-holders who tell the truth, stand up for what they believe, and oppose the radical agenda of the far right

You mean like the Democrat Dean is going to support after the nomination? If JK or JE is supported by Dean, as he says he will do, does that mean that you've been wrong all this time, and JK and JE are honest and stand up for what they believe, like IWR, PATRIOT, and NCLB?

If Dean opposes those, but supports Dems who support those bills, then how can HE be someone who stands up for what he believes?

Fighting against special interests

Yeah, that's a new one.

Fighting for progressive policies like health care for all, investment in children, equal rights under the law, fiscal responsibility, and a national security policy that makes America stronger by working with allies and advancing progressive American values

Gee, those are so new I've never heard of them. What is this "health care for all" you speak of? Can you explain what that is? I've never ever heard of it. I'll have to thank the Dr for raising the issue for the first time just as soon as I learn what it is.

[chocolateeater]

124. I think he does think he can change the DLCers

by winning the issues debate. Please note that this does not necessarily mean winning elections. The reports on the exit polling I have seen, indicate that the voters polled agreed with Dean on the issues, but voted for Kerry because they thought he was more electible than Dean. I can understand the desperation, because Bush is the worst President in my lifetime, and we need to do everything we can, for the sake of our country, to win this election. To do that we do have to point out how radical and different they are from the mainstream of America. We cannot continue to let the Republicans frame the debate and give up the center to them. Don't forget that this also undercuts Nader's argument that Democrats and Republicans are the same.
As for the money, there is something to be said for the party getting most of its money by, inspiring people to get involved and standing up for us when it counts, rather than getting most of it by sucking up to big corporations and fat cats.

[sangha]

127. I strongly disagree

I think it defies logic to think that a politician can change politics without winning elections. I've never known it to happen, and I wonder if you can point to any prior occassion when it has happened.


do that we do have to point out how radical and different they are from the mainstream of America. We cannot continue to let the Republicans frame the debate and give up the center to them.

That's not reforming the party. It's just a change in style.

As for the money, there is something to be said for the party getting most of its money by, inspiring people to get involved and standing up for us when it counts, rather than getting most of it by sucking up to big corporations and fat cats.

I agree, but that doesn't explain how Dean can fight back against the fat cats. Look, I agree it's a noble goal but I haven't heard anything even remotely close to a viable plan on how to do so. I hear lots of glittering generalities like "take back the country" and "reform the party", "stand up for principles", etc but nothing concrete.

[chocolateeater]

128. Well, I can think of couple of examples

of this happening. Goldwater in 1964 and Reagan in 1976. Both were forerunners of the far right revolution in the Republican Party. :puke:
You're right, about that being just a change in style, but there has been surprising resistance to it. Remember Evan Bayh saying, "Do we want to vent or do we want to govern."? Sometimes venting can pave the way to being able to govern. I can see I also forgot the other half of the equation, and that is only making promises you can keep, and then fighting like hell to keep them. But if you have successfully reframed the debate and pulled it back to the left from the far right, it should be easier to do(not easy, just easier).
As for having a detailed plan for how to fight the fat cats, I'm not sure about that yet. Plan A was for Dean to be elected president and become the leader of the party. Plan B is a grassroots organization that supports progressive candidates and causes, but the exact details on that won't be released until March 18.

[sangha]

135. Actually, I think Goldwater is a good example

for what might happen. The mood is somewhat similar, but reversed with liberals on the outs these days. However, it's important to note IMO that that movement outlasted Goldwater. He ran, he lost, and then after that he was a symbol nore than anything.

[chocolateeater]

137. Yes, that's right.

I believe a movement has been started and that it will take a while to accomplish its goals. But if we stick with it, I think a lot of good will be done in the party and the country. As for Dean, in the short term he will lead this new organization and do whatever it takes to get Bush out of the White House and more Democrats in Congress. I think the long term depends on what how successful we are between now and Election Day.

[Cleita]

13. I think it was the for profit health industry's PR people who

attacked him with the help of the DLC, who give contributions to that organization as well as the two candidates who rose up to be the front runners.

So flame me, but he brought the health care issue to the forefront again when no one else would touch it with a ten foot pool. Watch this issue disappear in the coming campaign.

[eablair3]

21. don't forget

Joe Lieberman also attacked him whenever he got a mic.

[eablair3]

14. I was wondering if some of the campaign org people sabotaged his bid

I am on the outside of the Dean organization completely, but after seeing the campaign officials for Dean and the ones who were fired and/or quit, ... they all seemed to have ties to the establishment Dem party, and then one of em wanted to go work for Kerry. I could be wrong. But, I was just wondering if those in power got Dem establishment campaign workers and organizers into Dean's campaign, or put pressure on those workers to turn on Dean. I don't know, but I was just wondering.

[maggrwaggr]

6. well, I spend very little time in the GD2004 forum

because it just seems like a roomful of people all screaming at each other.

So maybe this is why it's new to me.

Still ..... I don't get it. Unless you're a GOPer, why hate Dean? He can only help. Even if I didn't like him, I'd want his supporters to vote for my guy, rather than staying home (which is what they're likely to do)

[slinkerwink]

3. because Dean's the whipping boy for the Democratic Party like

Clinton is the whipping boy for the Republican Party---makes you wonder, doesn't it about our posters here?

[curlyred]

4. only today?

If if weren't for Dean bashing, there are qutie a few posters who would have nothing to say and really low post counts.

[ShimokitaJer]

9. It depends on your definition of "Democrat"

You see, many people call themselves "Democrats" because they vote for whoever happens to have a "D" behind their name. They also tend to yell and scream at anyone who does not do so, and define "help the Democratic party" as "vote Democrat no matter what the Democratic party does."

Others, however, believe more in small-d democracy than in the big-D Democratic party. They usually vote for Democrats because Democrats usually stand for democratic ideals better than the Republicans do. However, they define "help the Democratic party" as "encourage the Democratic party to be more democratic." In order to accomplish this goal, it is necessary to think about what a candidate stands for rather than blindly voting for any candidate with a D behind his name.

In calling for his supporters to work for democracy rather than simply handing them over to the Democratic party, Dean has committed the worst kind of sin. He simultaneously commits the blasphemy of implying that not all Democrats are paragons of democracy and also suggests that we might use our votes to encourage change in the party rather than accepting that they will never change. This is based on the very foundations of democracy, but ironically threatens the stability of the Democratic party, which has become so much like their opposite party that the only thing that divides them is the words they use to describe the imperialism they embrace.

Clearly Dean is a danger, and since he can't be ignored like they did Kucinich, he needs to be struck down.

[eablair3]

12. agreed

"Clearly Dean is a danger, and since he can't be ignored like they did Kucinich, he needs to be struck down."

yup, I agree with that.

[KoKo]

19. ShimokitaJer, that's probably one of the best statements about what

happened to Dean that I've read on this site. :toast:

[denverbill]

23. I couldn't agree more. Good post

[janx]

28. Very well put! n/t

[ozone_man]

43. I'll take the small-d democracy please.

Great post Shimokita. :yourock:

[tobius]

79. laid out your case very well. bravo! nt

[eablair3]

10. it depends on what you're definition of "Democrat" is

in reading your post, you may have a different definition of Democrat than perhaps others.

To others, ... Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller are democrats.

The democratic party has obvioulsy taken a shift to the right putting it more in the middle, imo, thanks to the DLC, Clinton, etc, and it has become more and more owned by big business, like the Repugs.

Traditional democrats cannot be tolerated by those who have gained power in such a party. That's my theory.

[Mick Knox]

15. Post a thread on ANY subject at DU

and there is hatred from within DU...

with the exception.. we virtually all agree pukes are pukey puke masters.. so that typically goes on with various back slapping replies in concurrence..

Thats my experience anyway.

[buckeye1]

16. Dean is a fraud and a loser.

The ski bum coward needs to exit pronto. No one wants to hear any more of his pathetic B.S. Beat it! Your 15 mins. are up.

[slinkerwink]

17. LMAO!

The SAME post as in GD2004, and in LBN---not much originality there, eh?

[slinkerwink]

18. how is he a coward? he stood up when others wouldn't stand up...

and I guess you prefer not having a Democrat like Dean around to help us beat Bush and fund Democrats' congressional races.

[KoKo]

24. I don't know where some folks come from here.......with comments

that are designed to flame and divide . Just like the Chimp. One does wonder about their tenacity and their ability to manipulate the rules staying always just within the edge. :shrug:

[sangh0]

36. The same could be said

for that post, which goes right to the edge

[littlejoe]

55. And he was one of the first to sit down.

[angryinoville]

31. You don't speak for me...

so don't say no one wants to hear you. Why don't you beat it. You're part of what's wrong with A.D.D. America.

[angryinoville]

32. The above post is in response to Dean being called a loser...

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janx]

35. Buckye, you need to get some new lines.

Those have been copied and pasted in two or three different places around here today already.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

45. Another shining example of....

the mindset. No reasons, no factual data, nothing reasonable or logical. That seems to be the norm.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jansu]

91. Unlike the man who took an oath to fulfill his duty to his country and

only showed up for the first part of his cozy duty!

Many boys got medical deferments for flat feet, bad backs, hemorrhoids, acne etc. In the case of bad backs, there is a very good reason that they are not allowed to serve, it is because you have to be able to carry a wounded soldier and with a bad back, you might not be able to. My husband received a back injury in the Army, and after his medical out after serving an extra year, while the army tried to get him well, he was still able to ski, work in construction etc. But the army did not want him.

We all know you hate Dean, but get your facts right! A bad back can keep you from serving, (and Dean did not ask for it), but it does not keep you from doing things in life!

[Eloriel]

97. John Kerry, is that you?

[RetroLounge]

108. Poop!

eom

[Capn Sunshine]

130. Enjoy that tombstone

It looks good on you.

[ibegurpard]

25. People are pissed off because he won't lay down and die.

eom

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

26. He's pretty dead right now

Politically.

[slinkerwink]

27. no, he's not....

[janx]

30. Hardly--though you may wish it so. n/t

[littlejoe]

56. Dean's political life may not quite be dead, but it is on life-support!

[AntiCoup2K4]

61. Sure he is...

...that's why Waffleboy keeps stealing his message and quoting it word for word.

[Meshuga]

29. Interesting question...

Dean is not the only one hated here. Why the hate towards any of the candidates? I personally don't hate any of them. It's crazy how polarized DU is...

[sangh0]

37. I don't hate Dean, but I hate his candidacy

because I think claims that Dean is trying to save/reform/change the party are untrue. What I saw was Dean campaigning against the party.

[maggrwaggr]

38. If the party's sick, why not try to fix it?

Dean camaigned against the party because the party is royally FUCKED UP.

Why do you think he got such vehement support from so many people?

There are a hell of a lot of people disgusted with the current state of the Democratic party, I'm one of them, and there are millions more like me.

If you want people like me to vote for Kerry in the fall, you'd better welcome Howard Dean. He's the only one I'm gonna listen to.

[janx]

39. I'll tell you what, MW, I can't wait for these summits in a couple

of weeks. Have you heard about them yet?

[maggrwaggr]

74. I have not. What up?

maggr

[janx]

121. Here:

http://www.changeforamerica.com

[sangha]

94. Dean is going to fix the party with name calling?

Calling them Republicans is going to get them to reform?

Instead of these hazy and glittering generalities, why don't you explain exactly how is Dean going to fix the party?

Will it be with votes? If so, how because he couldn't even get a plurality in primaries where the voters tend to be more liberal, in states where the Dem voters said they were 75% anti-war. Instead, they voted for "Bush*-lite" Dems who voted for IWR, PATRIOT, and NCLB. How is Dean going to fix the party?

[Eloriel]

98. Yeah, calling them Republicans definitely got their attention

and they all straightened up and started acting a LITTLE more like Democrats.

Here's an initial glimpse of what Dean intends:

Our new effort will seek nothing less than to change America by:

• Reviving our democracy and bringing new people into politics

• Supporting candidates and office-holders who tell the truth, stand up for what they believe, and oppose the radical agenda of the far right

• Fighting against special interests, and

• Fighting for progressive policies like health care for all, investment in children, equal rights under the law, fiscal responsibility, and a national security policy that makes America stronger by working with allies and advancing progressive American values.

Everyone involved in our campaign should stay involved, stay together, stay with the Democratic Party, and support the Democratic nominee. As I have said before, I strongly urge my supporters not to be tempted by independent or third-party candidates.

Let me tell you how I think the Democratic Party can win in 2004:

This year, our campaign made the case that in order to defeat George W. Bush, the Democratic Party must stand up strong for its principles -- not paper over its differences with the most radical Administration in our lifetime.

In order to win, the Democratic Party must aggressively expose the ways in which George W. Bush’s policies benefit the privileged and the most extreme ideologues.

I will do everything I can to ensure that the 2004 Democratic nominee runs as a true progressive -- with an agenda for working Americans and their hopes for a better future. Because that is the way to win in 2004.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/003836.html

[sangha]

100. I realize that Dean likes the attention

but how does that reform the party?

Please try and do better than cut-and-paste

[Nicholas_J]

40. Have you noticed

Since Dean dropped out, the campaign for the nomination has been marked by an air of civility, and a greater sense of unity against Bush, rather than baseless attacks on the other candidates.

Dean began the negative campaigning with the general statements about "Bush Lite" and representing the "Demcratic WIng of the Democratic Party" attacking and misrespresenting Kerry's record while he was hospitalized for cancer surgery, stating that Graham would be 70 years old when he ran for a second term if he was the nominee and won while Graham was hospitalized for bypass surgery, then goin on to attack and misrepresent Edwards record in San Fransisco, almost immediately stating that he knew it was false as soon as the debates in SAn Francisco were over, sending an apology to Edwards privately, rather than publicly, also attacking Kerry's record. His misrepresentation of his own statements on raising the age of Social Security and having to then reverse himself and apologize for that, going on to making statements about Kerry's voting record on aid to mid-west farmers that were actually the records of another Senator, Bob Kerrey, then his paid staffers trying to infiltrate Kerry's campaign in Iowa.

As soon as Dean left the campaign, Edwards and Kerry maintain civil campaigns towards each other, recogning and publically noting, along with each others differnces, their opponents strengths. The campaign immediately moved from the worse of negative campaigning, to the the best of positive campaigning in a matter of days.

I have an editorial from a Vermont newspaper that points out that Dean had a record for abusive campaigning while he was Governor, and pointed out that such campaigning could (and indeed did) eventually negatively effect Deans own campaign:

Dean bites Democrats


One certainty about the 2004 presidential primary campaign is that Howard Dean will not be named Mr. Congeniality by his fellow Democratic contestants...

Although sometimes loose with the truth, Dean's attack strategy seems to have paid off. He has put his opponents on the defensive and has drawn considerable attention from political commentators and Democratic contributors. Polls show him neck and neck with Kerry in the critical New Hampshire primary and closing in on the favored Gephardt in the Iowa caucuses.

All this no doubt delights the Republicans, who are busily raising huge sums of money for next year and love to see the Democrats engaged in fratricidal combat...

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.

http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

In the end, this style of campaigning was one of the factors that caused Denas campaign to crash and burn.

Thursday nights debates in Los Angeles showed the best side of politics and politicians, and indicated the quality and character of all of the candidates involved, not just the two frontrunners, but all of the remaining candidates. Any one of remaining candidates has the character necessary to bring to the presidency.

Focusing on issues and more important, the common goals of all of the Democratic candidates, as well as bringing to the forefront the months of wasted time due to the negativity that was brought into the campaign.

[molly]

41. I remember every time Dean took a potty break

it was posted in LBN, P&C, GD. Every thread was in your face, arrogant, threatening, bullying Dean supporters calling the rest of us stupid for supporting a loser such as Kerry. The handful of us that fought back using your great research now have a reason to be proud. BTW - time wounds all heels - what goes around......

Thanks, Nick.

[littlejoe]

57. If the "Deaniacs" would just please let go of their "messiah"!

[janx]

42. I'm getting really tired of this. Which would you rather have--

a fire lit under the backsides of Democrats, or the politics-as-usual kind of campaigning that got us 2000 and 2002?

You can't have it both ways, Nicholas. You can't keep complaining about what Dean did at the start (as some do on this board ad infinitum)and praise the candidates for going after Bush* as they are doing now.

Some of your accusations sound like outright rumor to me, but the fact is that Dean is the one who got the Dems off of the ground during this primary season. And he did that by *challenging* the Dem status quo (which also made him a prime target).

So quit the mewling and puking and try something positive for a change.

You do know what Dean meant when he said he was from the democratic wing of the Democratic party, don't you?

[slinkerwink]

44. YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FOREVER A DEAN DEMOCRAT, NOT ONE OF THOSE PUSSY-ASSED DEMOCRATS!

[janx]

50. Dean is so lucky to have you and young people like you, Slink.

:hug:

The tea is still in the harbor!

[littlejoe]

51. What is it you're looking for, now that Dean is out? I really

would like to know. I used to support Dean.

[slinkerwink]

58. I'm looking to force the party leaders to listen to the left.....

[littlejoe]

62. Kerry has been a lifelong liberal. How far to the left do you want

a candidate to lean?

[slinkerwink]

66. he isn't liberal on those three issues, IWR, Patriot Act, and NCLB

[w4rma]

114. Also, fair trade vs. bilateral trade. (n/t)

[AntiCoup2K4]

70. I want him to stand up to that unelected piece of shit in the White House.

Not in campaign rhetoric, as a senator. And Kerry failed to do so, miserably. And that's probably because, as he is tied to the same criminals as Junior, he doesn't want to vote against them.

Bush and Kerry are two sides of the same fascist PNAC coin.

[littlejoe]

75. What part of his answers to your concerns don't you understand?

It's a gross mistake to believe that Kerry is part of the PNAC. That would be as ludicrous as my saying that you are an "enemy combatant" because of your beliefs.

[AntiCoup2K4]

90. If Osama Bin Laden was one of my advisers

Then calling me an "enemy combatant" might be somewhat warranted.

Of course he's not (posted for John Asscrotch's benefit) but Will Marshall of PNAC is one of Kerry's. Not to mention just yesterday he gave his enthusiastic support to Sharon's tribute to the Berlin Wall.

[maggrwaggr]

83. This isn't about Kerry. It's about hating Dean.

Why do you hate Dean? If he's ABB and will back the nominee?

Why can't YOU get over hating Dean?

[maggrwaggr]

76. Not the left. The un-establishment. The non-corporatists.

The non-panderers.

Dean is a leader. He goes out on a limb with his beliefs and challenges people to follow him.

Others (I won't name names) seem to pander. They stick their finger in the wind, try to figure out what people want, then they try to become that.

Anyone who voted for the IWR doesn't deserve to be nominated for anything, unless they're a Republican.

The Democratic party is supposed to be an OPPOSITION party to the republican party, and it has FAILED MISERABLY at that.

That's why we Dean supporters want to throw them ALL OUT and start over.

The government is broken and it's time to fix it.

[littlejoe]

77. I am thankful that people like you represent the smallest fraction

of the democratic party. Enjoy your "messiah" He's toast. I doubt you will ever hear of him again!

[maggrwaggr]

82. So let me get this straight ...

Extrapolating from your post ....

You were for the war.

You like politicians who pander.

You like corporatists.

Gee, with Democrats like you, who needs Republicans?

[littlejoe]

84. You are obviously Hell-bent on distorting Senator Kerry's positions.

Trying to open a closed mind is nearly impossible.

[maggrwaggr]

86. I'm just responding to your response to me, pal

And this isn't about Kerry. It's about Dean. Why can't you get over your hatred of Dean? Isn't it time you moved on and accepted his support?

Don't you want the support of his supporters?

Or would you rather tell them to fuck off and have them stay home?

[burning bush]

105. Little Joe, this Is SUCH bullshit!

Telling people to "let go of their messiah" is trying to open minds, yet you have a problem with Dean calling the Bush kissing DINOs Republican Light?

Why don't you get your philosophy straight?

[littlejoe]

118. Many of you act as if he IS the "messiah." I have never seen

such behavior. PLEASE take your balls and go home. You represent a small fraction of people who would cut your nose off to spite your face.

We are willing to listen to reasoned discourse, but not a bunch of empty sabre rattling from some malcontents who are more interested in ripping things up, than trying to work within the party.

Again I will say that your "messiah is dead, now get over it and move on. All you are doing right now is hurting the party.

I was shocked to find out how "Deaniacs" (sounds a lot like "dittoheads") have willfully wreaked havoc on Kerry offices in some areas. That is disgusting, and has NO business happening within the party.

[w4rma]

122. Quit acting as if Kerry is the messiah, littlejoe.

Your messiah, Kerry, is going to need the support of Dean supporters in order to win the general election, no matter how you cut it.

[littlejoe]

125. I don't get enamored of ANY candidate. Maybe you should

do the same.

I'm well aware of my candidate's flaws, and I don't look at him all google eyed, like many "Deaniacs" look at Howard Dean.

In time, as you get older, you will learn that.

[earthsea wizard]

136. What is your fixation with Dean?

I've only been here a bit, and I admit that I like Dean/Edwards/ABB in that order (I just can't get on the Kucinich train, this country is no where near ready for a Vegan in the Whitehouse - people will vote against him just because he doesn't eat dead cows, and I say that as a vegetarian of 15 years!) but i see you and a handful of others, all Kerry supporters, who go OUT OF YOUR WAY to insult Dean and his supporters with no instigation needed.

It is a huge turn off.

You don't like Dean supporters who get all googley eyed?

I don't like Kerry supporters who act shitty and self important!

And I see more of the latter than the former in this forum.

:|

[Eloriel]

101. Dream on, littlejoe

He's going to be your worst nightmare if that's what you want.

[littlejoe]

126. Sour grapes?

[janx]

85. I and others want some real honesty from Dem leaders.

It's not too much to ask.

Some of us saw the Chimpy Iraq war coming, and we saw the flimsy excuses the administration used to justify that action.

It was obvious, and yet some politicians rolled over and amazed us with their political expediency.

Thousands of people have died because of that...brains blown apart, limbs severed, etc.

It's so easy for people to get into power in D.C. and become some kind of beehive--the media and the government.

I have no use for either.

[maggrwaggr]

87. exactly. How can we expect someone who voted for IWR

to prosecute those who committed this huge crime?

We can't.

That's why we're so pissed off. Kerry doesn't have a leg to stand on in prosecuting Bush for the war.

Thanks!

[Nicholas_J]

103. As usual

Dean didnt know wht he meant when he said it. It was said in the way Dean always has been know to speak. Gives you a little of what you want to hear to make you think that his platform is one that supports thhings that are important to you, but just vague enough to slip out of the position once he has what he wants:

Deans attacks on Edwards were in San Francisco:

From Glen Johnson at the Boston Globe:



In animated conversation on the floor of the US Senate on Wednesday, Kerry placed a hand on Edwards's shoulder and nodded in agreement as the North Carolinian spoke to him with visible passion. Then, pointing at the podium where the Senate's presiding officer sits, Edwards said to Kerry in a voice loud enough for a reporter in the overhead press gallery to hear, ''He got up there and lied.''

Edwards was referring to the speech Dean delivered to California Democrats last weekend, in which he stood at the podium at the party's annual convention in Sacramento and lambasted Edwards and Kerry by name for supporting the war. Dean, who has won a following with his antiwar pronouncements, sought to distinguish himself further by telling the delegates that both of his rivals had refused to stand by their position during their speeches to the crowd. The remark triggered cheers for Dean - even though he would later acknowledge it was wasn't true.

http://www.topdog04.com/000071.html

Kucinich pointted out Deans stance about raising the social security age, and Dean denying it, only to have the media reporting on what he did say several times and Dean then apologizing and stating that he was wrong to take that stance. Or Gephardts pointing out Deans support of Newt Gingrich's suggestion to cut Medicare spending

Graham apology:

The latest apology was made Monday, after the former Vermont governor told a group of New Hampshire business leaders his views about appointing justices to the Supreme Court. ''I'm actually the only major candidate who's appointed a judge,'' Dean said. When a reporter later asked whether he misspoke because another candidate, Senator Bob Graham, is a former two-term governor of Florida, Dean replied: ''Bob Graham is a wonderful, decent human being, but at this time he's in single digits in all the states you can't be in single digits in. I have enormous respect for Bob Graham, but at this point he's not one of the top-tier candidates.''

Dean later placed a call to the Associated Press to offer an apology.

''I regret having made the remark, and I regard Bob Graham a good friend. My remark was not intended to be dismissive of his chances,'' the wire service quoted him as saying.

http://www.pejmanesque.com/archives/003198.html


Another statement on Deans part came from a Boston Globe Article by Glen Johnson again:

Dean is running a sorry campaign, says the Boston Globe:

"Howard Dean's fire-breathing campaign rhetoric has inspired some party activists, but the inaccuracy of some remarks, as well as his characterizations of some rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, has prompted him to issue several apologies this year.

"Earlier this month, a campaign spokeswoman apologized on Dean's behalf after he said he voted against a congressional resolution authorizing war with Iraq, even though he has never been in Congress. In April, Dean knocked on the door of Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri to make amends for a campaign press release that labeled the congressman's health care proposal 'pie-in-the-sky.' In March, Dean sent a note of apology to John Edwards of North Carolina after saying at a convention of California Democrats that the senator did not stand by his vote in favor of the war. Moments earlier, Edwards had been booed by the delegates for reiterating his support for it.

"The latest apology was made Monday, after the former Vermont governor told a group of New Hampshire business leaders his views about appointing justices to the Supreme Court." That produced the regrets to Graham.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9016-2003Jun18?language=printer



Dean has run one of the most abusive campaigns in recent history, and regretted it when the other candidates let him know in no uncertain terms that if he wanted to campaign like that, so could they. Virtually all of the attacks on Dean came as a result of misinformaiton that Dean or his campaign spread about other candidates. But in Deans case, the information that the other candidates were releasing about him were correct, and Dena ended up havinf to explain to the public what he meant when he suypported Gingrich's cuts, or what he meant when he said he would raise the retirement age to 70 first, and then 68 on another occasion.

The attempts by Dean staffers to ifiltrate Kerry's Iow Campaign:

Dean fires 2 campaign aides
By Ed Tibbetts

.
Howard Dean’s presidential campaign in Iowa fired two workers Thursday who were accused earlier in the day of trying to infiltrate rival John Kerry’s campaign.
.
In a letter to the Kerry camp, Jeani Murray, Dean’s Iowa campaign manager, said the two were terminated after an investigation prompted by complaints by John Norris, who is running Kerry’s Iowa effort.
.
Norris complained in a letter to Murray earlier in the day that the two men claimed to work for Dean and approached the Massachusetts senator’s Creston, Iowa, office, earlier in the week asking about the operation. Norris said one of the men, Mitch Lawson, admitted Thursday to being employed by Dean and said they were trying to get their hands on “calling scripts.”
.
Sarah Leonard, a Dean spokesperson, said the two only recently joined the campaign and are from out of state. She did not say what they specifically tried to do, but in her letter, Murray said, “we will not tolerate any misrepresentation of the Dean campaign in any way.”

http://www.qctimes.com/internal.php?story_id=1022713&t=Nation%20%2F%20World&c=26,1022713

Dean Campaign Issues False Information on Kerry Record on Farming
Dean again shows bad judgment by not following his own advice and attacking fellow Democrats

December 30, 2003

For Immediate Release
Des Moines, IA -

Today, the Dean campaign issued a release regarding a letter sent by Dean supporter, Chris Petersen, Vice President of the Iowa Farmer's Union that criticized John Kerry’s record on farm issues. The problem: Once again Howard Dean gets it wrong.

It’s possible that in their rush to smear, they confused votes cast by John Kerry and former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey. And, the misfire failed to include Dean’s own dismal record of choosing corporate farming interests over family farms.
“Once again, Howard Dean has issued a statement that will likely result in a clarifying statement to correct the record. This time, Dean wrongly accused John Kerry of supporting farm legislation he didn’t support and voting against flood relief for farmers that Kerry did support,” said Stephanie Cutter, Kerry campaign spokesperson.

Cutter added, “This is another example of Dean’s reckless statements obscuring reality. John Kerry will not let Howard Dean distort his record on family farms. In fact, Kerry is responsible for making flood relief programs work for farmers. He worked WITH, not against Tom Harkin to oppose the 1996 Farm Bill and fix the problems in 2002. The reality is that it’s Howard Dean that has victimized family farms in Vermont, where he lured corporate farms, refused to enforce regulations and chased nearly 900 family farms out of the state.”

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_1230d.html


Not much rumor here. Actually none.

[janx]

119. Ah, I see: you found some journalists surmise it, so it must be true!

HA!


You have a lot to learn, Littlejoe.

Dean knew exactly what he meant with his "democratic wing" comment. It's something you might want to think a bit more about.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

49. It still amazes me

That people get all their info from the media whether it be on television or the print rags. As for this "private" apology. How would one know about a "private" apology. Isn't private when it's done with the knowledge of no one other than those involved? Are we speaking with Edwards himself or maybe a child of his? Maybe his wife? How does one get private information?

[RetroLounge]

73. No but I've notice how utterly boring it has become

:boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring:

[jansu]

92. Two peas in a pod never fight! They are both part of the problem, which

Dean was talking about and trying to change. And millions of us can see this and want to change it also! If you are not making people uncomfortable with the way things have been and make them think, you really are not advancing toward a better country and world. Just more of the same, different actors, but everything will remain the same.

Dean and his supporters made the other Candidates HAVE to talk about the problems in this country! Unless we become the squeaky wheel of this race, we will not get the votes neccessary to kick Bush and gang out! We must make them answer for the problems this country and the world face! You can not do that by being just the nice, smiling personality! I don't want a toothpaste ad boy, I want a leader like Winston Churchill! Not perfect, but not just another pretty face with not much substance!

So Dean and his supporters were a waste of time? Unbelievable...really makes me want to work hard to help get the Nominee elected and support with my hard earned money, your candidate! Do it on your own. I will work to get House and Senate candidates elected or re-elected.

I am ABB! But, only because I fear where Bush and gang will take this country. If not for that, I would vote third party.

[w4rma]

112. Nic_J. The DUer who has smeared Dean since Day 1 ...

... is still smearing Dean with false information. Let go of your hate Luke. The dark side is bad.

Anyway, Dean was attacked and now that he isn't in the nomination fight, he's not being attacked by the candidates. However, it appears that long time Kerry supporters are still snobbishly attacking him.

[molly]

117. Nic J is a researcher - he researches what he writes

why don't you do the research to prove him wrong - if you can.

[Duder]

120. More propagandist than researcher.

He cherry picks. Waste of time debunking his multiple cut & paste clips. Been there, done that.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

46. How far

did you look? Can you share with us all some facts about his campaign other than what may have been seen on TV?

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. I amazed in that, this man was supposedly marked off as a non entity

after dropping from the race...and yet,people still talk about him. I guess he was a bit more of a threat than previously thought.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

52. Definitely

And the fear is so strong you can practically taste it. I can't speak for anyone ele but personally, when I write someone off I write them off and forget about them. But it appears some seem to be having a difficut time doing that where Dean is concerned. Like I always say, people fear what they don't understand.

[janx]

53. Yeah--he can still fire up a crowd...even on the 'Net!

It must be especially apparent to you as a DU moderator. That would be really funny! I was thinking about that earlier today. B-)

[Dookus]

54. I disagree

Mrs. G.

I don't see a lot of anti-Dean people starting threads. But we do respond when others do, like this one.

Here's why *I* disliked Dean:

I believed he was a phony through and through. He was a DLC centrist with a mediocre-to-bad record on the environment, guns, and corporate cronyism. Yet he ran as, and was defended here, as some sort of far-left progressive populist. I just never understood how his supporters could reconcile their faith in him with his actual record. REAL progressives don't seal their records. REAL progressives have a much better environmental record.

Further, I believed he would lose badly to Bush - his accomplishments in Vermont could not easily be extrapolated to the federal level. Vermont is just too small and homogeneous to be representative of the US as a whole. I also found him angry and mean-spirited, which admittedly is why a lot of people liked him.

While anger is emotionally satisfying, it doesn't really have a great track record of winning elections. I believe Bush would've walked away with the election if Dean were the nominee.

[slinkerwink]

60. we'll see what happens in Nov 2004....

[Dookus]

63. Exactly

how will we see if Dean would've lost badly in November?

Or are you going way off topic?

[slinkerwink]

67. now, we'll see if Kerry will lose badly in Nov as I think he will

The national polls are shifting to Edwards' favor, probably because the American public don't like what they see of Kerry.

[Dookus]

72. Well

this thread isn't about Kerry.

And I find it hard to understand how people can claim that Americans don't like what they see of Kerry when he has consistently won primary after primary, in every region of the country. Further, he beats Bush in the polls - only Edwards has done that, and with a lesser margin than Kerry. Dean never even came close.

I understand that a lot of Dean supporters would love to see Kerry lose. It would be some sort of vindication for them. I think that's sad.

[otohara]

116. Ridiculous

Dean's mantra, take back our country, does not equate to vote for for Bush. Now I could see if Dean were the nominee, (a) certain Kerry supporter might do what you're suggesting.

[littlejoe]

80. So we can't count on your vote in November?

[slinkerwink]

88. of course I'll vote for him---I just don't think he will win

[maxanne]

89. isn't it time

for an ABB thread, littlejoe?

[Nicholas_J]

104. i dont think so

The latest national polls shows something a bit differnet:

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates. Feb. 19-20, 2004. N=391 registered Democrats and independents who lean Democratic nationwide. MoE ± 6.

.

"Which of the following four Democrats would you MOST like to see nominated as the Democratic Party's presidential candidate this year?" Names rotated

% .

John Kerry 54 .

John Edwards 19 .

Al Sharpton 4 .

Dennis Kucinich 2 .

Howard Dean (vol.) 3 .

None (vol.) 2 .

Don't know 16 .

.

"If the Democratic presidential race comes down to a choice between John Kerry and John Edwards, which would you rather see as the party's candidate this fall?" Names rotated

% .

John Kerry 63 .

John Edwards 26 .

Neither (vol.) 2 .

Don't know 9 .


http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

[Duder]

113. I agree Slink...

...and so does Sam Smith:

WHO'S ELECTABLE?

'EVEN KERRY'S supporters are hard pressed to come up with a better reason for his nomination than something they call his 'electability.' There are several things wrong with this:

- Incumbent presidents are defeated by themselves, not by their opponents.

- Kerry and Edward's 'electability' at the moment depends largely on voters not knowing much about them. This is a far greater danger for Kerry since there is far more to know. Edwards is a largely empty vessel he can fill during the campaign any which way he wants.

- We have yet to run into anyone who considers Kerry more likeable than Edwards.

- In 13 recent state polls, Kerry does an average of five points better against Bush than does Edwards. Given the money and media behind the Kerry, along with his front-runner status, five points is not all that impressive.

In short, Kerry is a considerable dangerous bet for the Democrats than Edwards.'

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. I guess I should have clarified Dookus...I am sorry. I hear it yet

on the radio. Not just at DU. At DU everyone takes their lumps I guess. I just cannot get over the media coverage on him yet.

For me, he was quite a good deal less than phony. My husband is a gun owner. Yet he doesn't need an Uzi for deerhunting. We do own several guns...responsibly.I do believe that states should make their own laws.

Pandering is done by both parties. Accusations of corporate cronyism on the part of governors are hard to justify. When governors (both D and R) refuse to listen to corporations...jobs are lost. It's a fine line. And lost jobs don't play well in a presidential bid.

I believe he was our best chance at real change in America. Now I fear we will tow the line. It will be better, but not the best it could have been.

Let me put my reservations on our current major candidates. Neither one of them showed up for the overtime vote. As the wife of an hourly employee I am angry that they couldn't take time out of their schedules to vote on this...and yet they could rest. I'd feel a bit better if they had. And their arguments for labor ring false to me because of this, just as Governor Dean's statements ring false to you.

Their war vote also is/was a sticking point with me. I knew what Bush was going to do if that vote was passed as did most of America. And yet two men on the Senate floor did not?

Dean campaigned in Michigan for a year and a half. I attempted to see all the candidates but sadly, many of them couldn't take the time, or (to be fair) one time Kerry didn't fit into my schedule because I was at a Dean rally.

I found Governor Dean the three times that I met him to be warm, honest and personable. My 13 year old daughter was starry eyed meeting him. Why? Because the "angry" man, the one "full of so much hatred" took the time to shake her hand a speak with her...He didn't rush out the door. All I am is a mother of two, wife of a hard working man...who spent years yelling that no one was listening, no one was yelling for me...no one cared about my fears. And then someone came along, and was systematically torn down. When they couldn't find any awful skeletons they made up a horrifying scream. One that was later admitted too...Dean safely out of the race.

Make no mistake, I am ABB and I will pull that lever for whoever the nominee is...but I'll shed a tear for the life my family could have had...the future I fear my children will never know...if we don't change things soon.

Thanks for listening,

Laura

[Duder]

81. Well said MrsGrumpy.

:toast:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

[Eloriel]

102. Beautifully said, Mrs. Grumpy

I found Governor Dean the three times that I met him to be warm, honest and personable. My 13 year old daughter was starry eyed meeting him. Why? Because the "angry" man, the one "full of so much hatred" took the time to shake her hand a speak with her...He didn't rush out the door. All I am is a mother of two, wife of a hard working man...who spent years yelling that no one was listening, no one was yelling for me...no one cared about my fears. And then someone came along, and was systematically torn down. When they couldn't find any awful skeletons they made up a horrifying scream. One that was later admitted too...Dean safely out of the race.


I can't improve on that.

[maggrwaggr]

78. I can respect that. But a lot of us Dean supporters aren't leftists

I'm pretty moderate and practical. I liked Dean because he didn't pander, and didn't say the usual politician bullshit, and he had balls and stood up to the president and stood up to the weird-as-hell wave of war-fever that swept through the media and the whole country.

I liked him even before he came out against the war.

What I don't get is why some people now would rather bash him and call him names rather than accept his support and the support of his followers.

A lot of his followers are gonna stay home and not vote, unless he convinces them otherwise.

Is that what you Dean-dislikers want?

Hell, if Lieberman came out and said he was gonna form a group that would help my candidate get elected, I'd say "great, Joe, go for it" even though I really disliked Joe very much.

[slinkerwink]

59. in bashing Dean, people only reveal their insecurities about their own

candidates. :shrug:

[Dookus]

65. nonsense

pop psychology doesn't play here.

If so, I could find all your lousy slams against Clark, post them here, and claim they really reflect your own insecurities about Dean.

But I wouldn't do that.

[slinkerwink]

69. I admitted a month ago that I was bashing Clark because I was insecure

about him possibly beating my candidate. My question is, why are people still bashing Dean? It again proves my point that they are insecure about their own candidates.

[Dookus]

71. I did it in this thread

because it was what the original poster asked for. I didn't slam him, either. The question was why don't some people like Dean, and I answered, without being inflammatory or insulting to anyone.

But I neglected to say that the DEGREE to which I disliked Dean was exacerbated by some of his supporters. There was no reason to jump into this thread and turn it around on Kerry, or accuse me of having insecurities about my candidate. It was exactly that kind of constant, knee-jerk reaction from Dean supporters that turned my general dislike into an intense dislike.

[molly]

111. Dean is a done deal

the only reason he's getting any notice is because his supporters still think he's in the race. It's not bashing - it's a wake-up call.

[molly]

109. Not a threat at all

the only people still talking about him are his die-hard followers.

[KeepHopeAlive]

115. Hmmm

You forgot to mention all the die-hard detractors that show up on every thread.

[Zomby Woof]

96. I love Dean!

Dean Smith, one of the best coaches ever.

[XanaDUer]

131. I love noodles!

Eom.

[Duder]

132. "Don't hang noodles from my ears."

Old Russian proverb.

[burning bush]

106. Here's One Take

SOME people on DU hate Dean because of his incredible bluntness regarding the members of the Democratic party that refused to offer any opposition to Bush.

Dean called them out, got in their face, and shamed them (well, some of them)into remembering to what party they belong.

Dean's supporters picked up on his bluntness, and mirrored that bluntness here at DU, taking our turn at calling out the candidates, and the supporters of those candidates.

It shaped the debate, but won us few friends. But then, making friends with your opponents is never an easy thing, especially for people who are busy trying to differentiate themselves from their opponents, not appease them.

Another reason is that Dean is an easy target for simple people.

Dean was at the top, then fell hard. The more simple minded people, who might have merely been against Dean if he had not gone on such an adventure, took this as an opportunity to try to be hurtful, thinking that it is easy to kick a guy when he's down, and great fun to try to ridicule a fallen hero, or at least ridicule his most determined supporters.

It's a story of cowards, attacking the person they think is the weakest, and shouting the loudest against those they fear the most.

Yet another reason is that hate is all that these people have. They crushed Dean's campaign, but Dean isn't going away. Just as he so often did with his campaign, Dean defies the standard protocol, he bucks the accepted traditions, and he defies conventional wisdom.

He is a pitbull with lockjaw, hanging on to the pantleg of the Democratic party, hanging on against all the odds, proving that one can go far on principles alone.

Dean is his own man.

That scares people, challenges them, and prods them to do more than the believe themselves capabe

[JNelson6563]

107. He was a threat to the paradigms they hold dear

Just too scary to contemplate!! Independent thinking, standing up to Rove & Co., announcing the emperor is naked while many other Dems are complimenting his clothes....that sort of thing.

To hear candidates following Dean's lead makes it very clear, he was right, they were wrong and now that the good doctor has made it fashionable, they too have found their voices.

It is clear the followers of the follower-candidates still fear him. I think it is so very telling. It smacks of insecurity and a lack of confidence in their own candidate. Ah fear....the scent is unmistabable. ;-)

No need to worry politics-as-usual fans, you're safe. For now.

Julie

[AngryAmish]

110. Isn't this interesting?

[janx]

123. Yes. It is. n/t

[JHBowden]

129. Who is Howard Dean?

To be serious, people don't like the victimhood, conspiracy theories, GOP-talking points, and other turds some of the more vocal Dean supporters here at DU have been spewing. Dean lost; it is time to move on towards more relevant matters.

Besides being a little centrist, most haven't been expressing problems with Dean. People did get very pissy when Dean was kicking the crap out of their candidates in the primary, but *now* many Dean supporters are pissy at others for supporting a candidate that defeated him.

[mike from ri]

133. i dislike dean because he is self -delusional

dean was a niche candidate. nothing wrong with that. I got involved in politics supporting a niche candidate: Eugene McCarthy. Thus, Dean was never a coalition candidate w broad-based appeal.

But dean refused, and still refuses, to recognize this fact. he went around claiming grandiosely that he was the candidate of the "guys w/ confed flags on their pick-up trucks," claiming he had to stay in the race in response to "the ordinary people," and blaming the dnc/media/dlc for his ouster. was it the dnc/media/dlc who came out on a wintry night in Iowa to vote against dean by 5-to-1? was it the "special interests?" Or was it just ordinary folks who didn't like a guy who did not yet have a single vote saying he couldn't judge Osama bin Laden because to do so would be unpresidential (not exact words but the exact thought).

Hubris, conceit, pride. that is why i do not like dean and why i think his movement was over-hyped.

[Andromeda]

134. Dean has a powerful presence...

and still is a strong and polarizing figure.

Dean is outspoken and is able to say what he wants to say in short sound bites -- no long-winded explanations. This shocks some people because they are not used to politicians being blunt and to the point. He didn't sugar-coat the truth and if there was something he didn't agree with he didn't hesitate to speak up about it.

Early on everybody was taken back with his style. They said he wasn't politically correct, he was angry and he criticized his fellow Democrats too much. They didn't like the way yelled because it wasn't *presidential*. He wasn't liberal enough for some on the left and he was too liberal according to the right-wing.

Dean just couldn't be labeled. People tryed, but they just couldn't put him in a nice, tidy little category and that made some people uncomfortable. Dean was, and still is, an original.

He is an idea, a purpose and a movement within himself. He is Don Quixote and William Wallace. He is the Pied Piper, for many would follow him to the end of the earth. He isn't satisfied with the status quo and never will be complacent about any issue.

He makes waves and shakes up the powers that be because he sees the hypocricy in this administration.

He'll never be elected said the establishment, Washington insiders. He looks disheveled and needs a new suit, said the media. Bush served in the National Guard and Dean went skiing. His brother wasn't really in the CIA so why was he so important. His mother cried and Dean still grieves for that brother -- some people say his grief is not real.

I could go on an on but Dean was simply --- marginalized because he has so much influence on so many people. He had the power and yet, he recognized that the people were the real power.