Dear Governor Granholm, with all due respect. That is enough.

[madfloridian]

I just heard you on CNN, and you were not at all convincing when talking about how Michigan just HAD to move up the primary to be heard. When Wolf Blitzer asked you why February 5th would not have been ok, you really did not have a good response.

Quite frankly, with all due respect, Governor Granholm...I don't want to hear any more about it. Your state and my state did a huge power play. You took away the rights of the people in those states to have their votes count toward the nominee.

In my mind I assign a reason for that...but I do hate to say it out loud. I hate to believe the party power players did it for the benefit of one candidate. So I won't go there.

Your state had a press conference to encourage people to vote for the candidate you endorsed.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm, U.S. Sen. Debbie Stabenow and former Gov. James Blanchard will meet with reporters, to publicize their support for Clinton's presidential bid and to discourage Democrats from voting "uncommitted" -- one of the choices on the Democratic ballot, along with Clinton, Chris Dodd, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich. Blanchard said he is concerned voters may take out their frustration over the marginalized Democratic race here on Clinton, the only serious Democratic contender on the ballot in Michigan, by casting uncommitted votes.

"We're increasingly having people tell us they're mad at the party, mad at Howard Dean, and want to protest the process," Blanchard said, referring to the chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

Stop the blaming of the national party who followed the rules. Stop trying to scapegoat the chairman.

And to Bill Nelson, who appears to be the Head Honcho of Florida Democrats...I also say that is enough. You really had the nerve to say this week that you were proud you sued the DNC.

Nelson said he is still glad he sued the DNC, even if he lost, because he stood up for the right to vote and called attention to a broken system.

It "will give us the momentum as we try to change the primary system from the chaos that has developed now into a more rational system," said Nelson, who is sponsoring a bill to set up a national primary schedule.

For your own selfish reasons, whatever the extent of them..you, Karen Thurman, Debbie Wasserman Schutz, and Alcee Hastings urged the Florida Democratic legislators on in their cooperation with the GOP here.

As a result, I don't get to choose the nominee. There is no good reason for that.

[sandnsea]

1. The Clintons have the entire party in disarray n/t

[Cha]

2. Yes, and it's not even

Super Tuesday.

[madfloridian]

45. I think you are right.

It appears to be pretty wide-spread right now. Not just FL and MI now, but the NV deal is really blowing my mind.

[loudsue]

54. The Clintons have overstayed their pro-DLC welcome in our party.

Maybe they think they had to shift the party to the right to get away from the bush/reagan years, but that is history. That is SO pre-9/11 and so pre-republican takeover of the entire U.S. government: Legislative, administrative, judicial, electoral and media.

It's over. The rightward shift can go away easily, or with rioting in the streets. But it's going away. This is either government of the people, by the people and FOR the people, or it is government of the corporations, by the corporations and FOR the corporations.

Throw down.

[Thrill]

3. Dirty Tricks

Pathetic

[monmouth]

4. As a Floridian, I will do my best to see these asshats are voted

out of office in the future. I am especially disappointed in Alcee Hastings, can't believe he did that...

[ChiciB1]

11. From Florida Too... And I've HAD It!! I Really DON'T Want To Slam

THE CLINTONS, but Granholm really made me MAD too! What is it that people AREN'T seeing?? We say we want our government back and yet we are letting the POWER BROKERS and MSM to run our lives and tell us HOW it's GONNA BE!!

Clinton, the ONLY one who kept her name in Michigan and Granholm dissing the others! Even Obama is getting help from BIG MONEY and my frustration level is at a boiling point!

Living here in the south, there is a problem with RACE, but the CLINTONS didn't have to push the envelope! And now we have some big honcho in CA endorsing Clinton too! I'm not slamming Obama, but I AM afraid that he won't "play" well in the south! And THAT'S a REAL shame! Civil Rights have changed some things in the south, but I STILL see it all around me! And I live in a relatively "white" county! I NEVER thought I would see these two candidates doing this... but even BEFORE the Repukes have gotten THEIR chance to "play the issue" we have our OWN doing it!

I am proud to be a John Edwards supporter. I know he tends to agree with Obama more, but Obama has moved too far to the RIGHT for me to support him. Sorry, but some of the things he's said lately have really turned me off!

[AtomicKitten]

5. Funny how "to be heard" ended up with their delegates not counting at all.

[redqueen]

6. I've seen some DUers say the delegates will be counted...

no matter what Dean says.

:shrug:

[thunder rising]

56. Dean gave this pary back it's life ... he's infallable ... and if removed

it will be the end of the Democratic party as we know it. It will be wed with the Republicans and elections will be co-strategized (a wink, a nod).

[cyclezealot]

7. Thank You Governor Granholm.

This is the kind of thing you should have said.
By David Sirota.

$$

Right now, many are frustrated about Iowa and New Hampshire voters having such oversized influence in America’s presidential elections. In a few months, as the general election campaign unfolds, we will be similarly frustrated about Ohio and Florida. Who arbitrarily gave this handful of states the disproportionate power to determine our national political path?

When it comes to the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary, the answer is the parties. They decide which states select nominees first. In the general election, the culprit is the Electoral College. Most states award their electoral votes on a winner-take-all basis. However small the margin by which a presidential candidate wins your state, that candidate gets all your state’s electoral votes. That means if you don’t live in a “battleground” like Florida or Ohio whose statewide vote is perpetually up for grabs, you are ignored.

The nominating system is easily modified. Parties can add early primary and caucus states if they choose. Changing the general election, on the other hand, looks much harder. The Electoral College and its negative consequences seem locked into the Constitution.

But the operative word is seem
Right now, many are frustrated about Iowa and New Hampshire voters having such oversized influence in America’s presidential elections. In a few months, as the general election campaign unfolds, we will be similarly frustrated about Ohio and Florida. Who arbitrarily gave this handful of states the disproportionate power to determine our national political path?

When it comes to the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary, the answer is the parties. They decide which states select nominees first. In the general election, the culprit is the Electoral College. Most states award their electoral votes on a winner-take-all basis. However small the margin by which a presidential candidate wins your state, that candidate gets all your state’s electoral votes. That means if you don’t live in a “battleground” like Florida or Ohio whose statewide vote is perpetually up for grabs, you are ignored.

The nominating system is easily modified. Parties can add early primary and caucus states if they choose. Changing the general election, on the other hand, looks much harder. The Electoral College and its negative consequences seem locked into the Constitution.

But the operative word is seem

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071228_the_path_
**
$$

New Hampshire and Iowa have an undue influence in January , yet Florida &Ohio, have to live with their
choices. Example Biden, Dodd, Edwards pretty much become has beens after New Hampshire. Why should the big states that are the battle ground states have a say, since it is they that do the electing.

[madfloridian]

8. FL and MI screwed the voters out of their choice.

.

[cyclezealot]

9. If this action forces the Nation to adopt

a more representative nominating system, it is worth it. Not complaining here. Dean does not want to place the issues of the big industrial states up front, then he deserves their wrath come November.

[madfloridian]

10. Dean has supported changing to regional primaries.

There is no excuse for the states to take away our rights to vote.

Dean tried to work with them. He called for months and they blew him off rudely.

Shame on both states. They wanted their way and did not care about the people.

[cyclezealot]

13. He promised no compromises.

Hillary, O'Bama blew their wad of cash. Mich. would have been given short shift anyway. One would have to save up their wad for California. Michigan would have been a footnote. I think what Debbie Dingell did is equivilant to tactics used by Civil Rights activists. This way, should Michigan Democrats not realize this battle is to make their votes more improtant next time around; then they deserve to be forever relegated to scraps. Polls show a majority of Americans feel New Hampshire and Iowa have no right to forever have such relevence above their numbers. Why is this debate important.

[madfloridian]

15. They took the voters' right to choose away to make a point...

that Dean had often agreed with.

[cyclezealot]

42. A view from today's Detroit Free Press.

You might not see it. But the process of what states' get to eliminate whom from the ballots of those later down the road is just unacceptable for some. People react hastily when they think their votes are lost. As some Michigan Democrats now think the case. But they were choices lost in Iowa, New Hampshire anyway. Who says Hillary , Obama is the first choice of Michigan Democrats. Little late now. Edwards will soon be a goner. The system is just not right , nor will in be fixed anytime soon unless someone says NO.
$$$


Who's afraid of Michigan voters?
January 6, 2008

By BRIAN DICKERSON

FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

It's happening again.

For the third time in as many election cycles, two states that bear a closer resemblance to Manitoba than to Michigan are setting the agenda for both major parties' presidential derbies.
The contests for the Democratic and Republican nominations have electrified the country. But voters in Michigan, and especially supporters of Barack Obama and John Edwards, are condemned to watch them the way the Detroit Lions watch the Super Bowl -- with a keen interest, to be sure, but little chance of changing the outcome.

It's tricky to guess exactly how different the presidential race would look today if Michigan had been the first or second hurdle in the 2008 steeplechase.

Neither Obama nor Mike Huckabee was polling well here before the Iowa vote, but both candidates had made strategic decisions to concentrate their resources in earlier primary states. Who knows what might have happened if the major contenders had devoted the time and money they spent in Iowa to wooing Michigan voters?

A different ballgame

In any event, it's certain that both Iowa victors would have faced tougher debuts in the Great Lakes State.

Huckabee and Obama have both profited from the face-to-face contact that is the staple of small-state politics. Huckabee, in particular, leveraged that intimacy to neutralize gaffes that might have doomed his campaign in a mass-media state like Michigan.

Michigan, with a population more than twice the size of Iowa's and New Hampshire's combined, is simply too big and spread out for many voters to get even a few seconds of one-on-one face time with the candidates.

Demographic differences also would have made Michigan a more formidable proving ground for both Iowa victors.

In entrance polls, as many as 8 in 10 of Huckabee's Iowa caucus supporters identified themselves as Christian evangelicals. Michigan Republican chair Saul Anuzis estimates that evangelicals -- whom Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson as recently as Friday described as "the Taliban wing" of the Michigan GOP -- constitute no more than 20% of this state's GOP base.

On the Democratic side, Obama would have had to contend with an organized labor machine as potent as Iowa's evangelical insurgents.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080106/COL04/801060588/1215/NEWS15

[Kucinich4America]

20. Correction

The DLC in FL and MI screwed the voters out of their choice.

[Me.]

12. The Way To Do It Would Have Been

To work to change the DNC charter and bylaws. And maybe, they should have thought about this a couple of years ago. In addition, was the entire plan to grandstand, spit in the face of the DNC, institute a law suit and lose?

I understand some of the acrimony about this, my state might just as well not even bother to have a primary. But there are ways to do things. And trying to fracture the party and dirty up the DNC was not it.

[cyclezealot]

14. They tried that route for over a decade.

A majority of states are small states and they reinforced the role of the New Hampshire and Iowaevents . Sometimes someone has to say enough.

[madfloridian]

16. I disagree with you completely.

.

[cyclezealot]

17. As a native born Michiganian

I will argue before Democrats. Our vote was pretty meaningless anyway. No big deal. Michigan has been ignored for years. Why feel neglected now.

[durtee librul]

22. cyclezealot, you have my sympathies being a native

of this state. Not trying to slam MI too hard, but what a messed up state.....John Engler did this state NO favors. And most are quick to point fingers at Granholm. I wonder if those people will also be pointing at the next dem pres the next term for not cleaning up the mess W left. Yeah, knowing the clowns around here.....and in case you are wondering, I live north of Detroit.

[ChiciB1]

19. Then Why Didn't The States Just Go Along UNTIL AFTER This Election

and try to work it out?? Instead, many people are blaming Howard Dean when he simply is stating WHAT the rules ARE!! If THEY want the rules changed... GET THEM CHANGED BEFORE an election year!

This looks bad no matter HOW you do it, but if it couldn't have been worked out BEFORE this year, they will just have to try to get things ironed out later. But from what I understand, the RULES ARE THE RULES and they WERE agreed upon! So now, I get to vote on Jan. 29th, but how do I know what is going to happen? Given ALL the crap that has gone on here in Florida, it looks like we are getting SCREWED again. I hear there will be delegates, there won't be delegates and not the least of which.... MOST PEOPLE don't know what the HELL is going on!!

Don't BLAME the candidates, THEY are taking a stand for what was agreed upon in the first place. All but Clinton that is.

If I'm confusing you, or if I'm confused myself... DON'T blame ME! And I AM really pissed off at Granholm. I have begun to wonder just WHAT the Democratic Party IS anymore! I'm not sure I am one anymore!

We have TWO candidates, ONLY two candidates... and THAT kind of control of ALL of us is not only demeaning it SUCKS & it's NOT DEMOCRATIC!

[cyclezealot]

21. Been there, done that

It got no where. Some want real reform to assure the nominating process gives all an equal voice. Why should a handful of states decide.

[madfloridian]

24. That is the excuse people keep using when there is nothing left to say.

Sorry, but that is the truth.

[cyclezealot]

26. So you think Carl Levin, a national committewoman

and the governor would be so easily swayed to take such extreme measures , just for their egos. Someone was at the breaking point. I'll stick behind the Democratic leadership of our state.

[madfloridian]

29. I think there were many behind the scenes reasons.

I don't think being "swayed" was one of them. I think it was meant to undermine the leadership of the DNC, and to give an advantage to an insider candidate. I think all the lawsuits from Florida were for the same behind the scenes reasons.

[cyclezealot]

41. This is not a new battle.

Michigan's DNC representation have been fighting the supremecy of New Hampshire and Iowa for at least one election cycle if not two. Why should the big industrial states not have a say about the value of Biden's, Dodd's candidacies before Iowa, New Hampshire eliminate our options. Now, its all a money race, not a primary season. A suggestion, maybe New Hampshire civic booters just demand being number one because its a boost for tourism. If its all about tourism, Michigan and Florida could use some help too, come January.

[thunder rising]

57. This is the bloody truth ... DLC traitors trying to regain power

so they can return to the days when nobody cared about politics and they could hob-nob with the corporations just like the Republicans.

[AZ Criminal JD]

27. That's what Iowa and New Hampshire says every four years

'Just wait until after this election and then we will reform.' It never happens. Florida and Michigan decided enough was enough and it was time to put up or shut up. Their actions will force fossils like Dean to make a reform for the next election cycle. Even though Dean wants to take away the votes of Democrats in FL and MI he will fail and the delegates will be seated.

[thunder rising]

58. Careful on the who you call "a fossil"

The only reason we have a democratic party anymore and not one-unified-party-of-god is because of Howard Dean.

[Me.]

25. They Have Every Right To Be Fed Up With The Status Quo

and say enough. What I don't agree with is the tactics used and the way the whole thing was handled.

[durtee librul]

18. Hubby and I are both voting for

uncommitted tomorrow. All I know is that I like what uncommitted has had to say without playing the race card, crying on cue, stealing another candidate's ideas and words from 4 years ago ad nauseum.

Uncommitted it shall be and I hope he wins and wins big tomorrow.

[Kucinich4America]

23. Your reasons for voting for uncommitted are valid ones

However, you could vote for Dennis Kucinich for all the same reasons. Uncommitted can't keep a valid 4 way primary competition going. Dennis can. :)

[durtee librul]

28. If his name is on the ballot, he's got our 2 votes. n/t

[ShaneGR]

30. It's their state, and they can move it up to whenever they want, the system is a joke

Create a rotating system of early primaries. Perid. I applaud these state for moving up their primary.

[madfloridian]

31. Then breaking rules and passing blame is ok with you.

I want change but not at the expense of those who followed the rules.

FL and MI are no more important than the other states....not at all.

[ShaneGR]

32. F the "Rules", the system is competely broken

Why should 1/8 the city I come from have such a huge influence on who my President is. Screw that. Destroy the system. Force change.

[madfloridian]

34. Wow!

I have nothing to say to that.

[cyclezealot]

43. I understand Shane's contempt

But instead , I would say, to hell with the rules

[madfloridian]

46. You believe in rule-breaking and passing the blame.

I don't believe in that. You change the rules, you don't break the rules and then sue the ones that followed the rules.

If you don't see it as a power play, then I think you don't want to.

[skipos]

33. I am voting UNCOMMITTED. Gore, Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Biden supporters should do the same

and ignore what Granholm says.

[Tulkas]

36. I am also voting Uncommitted tomorrow

I hope we get the 15%

Honestly I hope more vote uncommitted than vote for Hillary, but that may be a bit much.

[skipos]

37. The polls (if you follow those things) indicate about 30% for uncommitted

and I too would like it to beat Hillary, but I HIGHLY doubt it will.

Uncommitted beat Carter in Iowa in 1976, so it can be a popular choice.

[antiimperialist]

35. Obama supporters are rooting for millions not be counted. Wow! n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

40. Uncalled for.

"Maybe you should move from Florida up here to Michigan and get some feel for what you are talking about. Unless the Mad part of Madfloridian means that you are insane, not just angry."

Not what my post was about. Two states hurt the people of their party to get a chance to be earlier.

I respect Governor Granholm in most ways, and I respect Bill Nelson in some ways....but both were wrong to make this play as party power brokers.

I am sorry you had to lower to a level of personal attacks.

[thunder rising]

59. Granholm and Nelson and the DLC are traitors to the Democratic Party (including Clinton)

[AtomicKitten]

39. She should have taken her foreknowledge of the consequences more seriously.

[madfloridian]

47. Yes. There are 48 other states just as important.

MI and FL are not the only ones who count. The DNC's job was to be fair to all of them.

[cascadiance]

44. Maybe, just maybe if these states worked JUST as hard to get rid of the voting machines...

Many of us might feel that a rotation of "who's first" is more in order. Iowa at least with its caucus system, gave the voters an "unencumbered" means of being the first voice for what Americans want. We saw how they defied the "inevitable mantra" that Hillary's going to win it, even though New Hampshire followed with a suspicious election machine ridden vote to try and derail that.

Get rid of voting machines would be one more way of us feeling more comfortable of displacing Iowa from its 'poll position'.

[sb5697]

48. Lemme see....one Clinton signs NAFTA into law.

NAFTA aids in screwing Michigan out of jobs. OK. Governor of Michigan supports the other Clinton but complains about there not being jobs in the state. Makes sense......go figure.

[spag68]

51. IMHO

Nafta had nothing to do with Mi. troubles. Mostly it's the fault of the car company's not making cars that are competitive with the Japanese. Try blaming the fat cats who own those manufacturers who did not upgrade the plants. Same thing happened in Pittsburgh when the Scaife-Mellon money decide they could make more money by shutting down the steel mills instead of making them clean and efficient. Thousands of lost jobs and no pensions see ya later.

[Phred42]

49. Excelent points madfloridian

A couple of rogue states tried a power play - THE DNC makes the rules you don't.

If you don't like the rules change them from within the system - How about starting 2 or 3 years ago.

[madfloridian]

53. Agree....and DNC having to intervene in Nevada.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/dnc_intervenes_in_nevada_atlar.php

"The Democratic National Committee has filed a motion to intervene in the lawsuit brought by teachers union against the Nevada Democratic Party's plan for at-large precincts."

This means that the DNC wants to preserve the principle that state parties can determine their delegate selection rules, and then, having chosen those rules, submit them to the DNC for the approval. A DNC official said the motion was filed because procedurally, it was the only way the party could file a brief in support of the party.

"Obviously, we support the Nevada state party and the previously recognized right of the national parties to set the rules for the nominating contests,"

The DNC fought Florida Democrats in court who charged that the DNC's decision to reject the Florida party's delegate selection date amount to an equal protection violation. The court sided with the DNC. A judge was set to rule on a temporary restraining order yesterday...

BTW: it seems as if the DNC and the Clinton family are on the opposite sides of this debate.

[orleans]

50. why don't we just do a lottery--and pick two states to go first through

random drawing?

why the "monolopy" of iowa and new hampshire--as i've heard radio callers refer to it as

what's the big fucking deal?

do a lottery every four years and let the dnc pick -- through a drawing -- what state goes when. that way it is fair for EVERYONE. and EVERYONE will get to vote.

[vanboggie]

52. That's it

I'm a MI resident, and Stabenow's votes have disappointed me on several occasions. Next time around, I'll vote ABS.
Because of this Primary fiasco to benefit Hillary, I have my regrets about supporting and defending Gov. Granholm in the past as well.

At this stage, I trust few politicians on either side of the aisle (no Rethugs, few Dems). As I've said before - if John Edwards doesn't win the nomination I'm going to pull covers over my head till the Mayan calendar runs out.

[cyclezealot]

55. The solution . A National primary.

The law would state should any candiate qualify for federal matching funds, that candidate is an official candidate. And that all candidates must receive free air time on the networks rented air . Debates be taken back to organizations such as the League of Women's voters. All states vote on the same day. If no one garners a majority there will be run off between the top two per political party. / Why the like of Mad Floridan can't get it thru his/her head. People down the line get fed up with unlike states eliminating your favorite candidate before you get a chance to vote. What is so hard to comprehend. Iowa went Obama, New Hampshire, Hillary. Before Feb 5 an unrepresentative process eliminated four candidates that Californian's never got a chance to vote for. Had super Tuesday states voted, what three states did, might very well be undone./ Why can't some see, those affected states' voters might be pizzed.

[thunder rising]

60. And who pays for a national primary ... and on what machines?

[cyclezealot]

62. It would likely be do-able only with a Constitutinal Amendment.

Still we can dream. Its what it would take in order to call us a democracy.

[happygoluckytoyou]

61. EDWARDS-OBAMA A TICKET THAT CANNOT LOSE

REPUBLICANS UNITE FOR THE ELECTION... AND DIVIDE THE SPOILS AFTERWARDS
DEMOCRATS DIVIDE FOR THE ELECTION... AND HAVE NOTHING TO DIVIDE

WHAT A PACK OF FOOLS WHO WOULD PARTAKE IN THIS SNIPING...

REGISTER NOW.... REGISTER YOUR KIDS.... REGISTER YOUR FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS....
--IF YOU DON'T CARRY LOTS OF ID.... REGISTER TO VOTE BY MAIL...CHEAP AND EASY TO DO

DEMOCRATS REMEMBER TO VOTE ON NOVEMBER 4
REPUBLICANS, DUE TO THE LARGE TURNOUT OF VOTERS EXPECTED, WILL BE VOTING ON NOVEMBER 5

AN EDWARDS/OBAMA TICKET WOULD BE THE GREATEST--BUT I'M VOTING FOR ANYONE ON THE DEM SIDE OF THE AISLE

-----ANY REPUBLICAN WHO SUPPORTED SILENTLY FROM CONGRESS THE BASTARD IN THE WHITEHOUSE SHOULD BE VOTED OUT.... WHEN YOU ARE IN THE GOVERNMENT, SILENCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE... THE DO-NOTHING CONGRESS OF 2000-2006 WAS JUST AS EVIL AS THEIR LEADERS