Any truth to these statements about Kerry?

[FatSlob]

My Mom sent me an email with this text:

*****************************************************
Throughout his career in Congress, Hanoi-John Kerry has voted AGAINST the following military items:

* B-1 bomber
* B-2 stealth bomber
* AH-64 Apache helicopter
* Patriot missile
* F-14A
* F-14D
* F-15
* F-16
* AV-8B Harrier
* Aegis air-defense cruiser
* Trident missile system
* M1 Abrams tank
* Bradley Fighting Vehicle
* Tomahawk cruise missile

In just the last decade Kerry has ceaselessly tried to cut the overall defense budget again and again:

* In 1991 Kerry voted to cut defense spending by 2 percent. Only 21 other senators voted with Kerry.
* In 1991 Kerry voted to cut defense spending (again) by over $3 billion. Only 27 senators joined Kerry.
* In 1992 Kerry voted to cut $6 billion from defense.
* In 1993 Kerry voted against a military pay raise.
* In 1993 Kerry introduced a plan to cut the number Of Navy submarines and their crews; reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force; terminate the Navy’s coastal mine-hunting ship program; force the retirement of 60,000 members of the armed forces in one year; and reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one.
* In 1995 Kerry voted to freeze defense spending for seven years. Only 27 other senators voted with Kerry.
* In 1996 Kerry introduced a bill to cut Defense Department funding by $6.5 billion. Kerry’s bill had no co-sponsors and never came to a floor vote.
* In 1996, Kerry voted to freeze defense spending for the next seven years (again). The resolution was rejected 28-71.
********************************************************

How much is true? How much is false? How much is embellished?

I bet that most of it is embellished, or the whole truth is not being told. There is no way that the above is 100% correct. Teach me people!

[David Dunham]

1. Bush's father and Cheney in early 90s also proposed big defense cuts

That was the "peace dividend" post-Cold War.

[FatSlob]

2. That will be a good reply to use

I like it!

[trotsky]

3. Much of this is addressed at Kerry's website.

http://www.johnkerry.com

As might be expected, there are a lot of details the e-mail doesn't cover.

[Zolok]

4. All I remember is that

the Boston Phoenix used to editorialize about Ted Kennedy and John Kerry's continual and reliable support for the Trident II-B SLBM and the Cruise Missile.
But that is a mere anecdote...hell I know about John Kerry for real is that when the bell rang and the sh*t came down he only needed one bullet.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[FatSlob]

5. I'm checking out the site.

Any idea where on the site the info is?

[sangh0]

20. Hint

Use the search button. Try searching for B-1

[Crachet2004]

6. Over the years, there has probably been over a hundred votes on...

the F-16 alone. I don't even think Kerry was a senator when they actually first decided to build the thing...although he may have been. But every time they build a few more, or get some spare parts, there is a vote in an annual appropriation. So if he voted against, one time, the GOP makes a big deal out of it. They are twisting the record to suit their needs, would be my guess.

And you can take that Hanoi-John crap and shove it.

[FatSlob]

7. Chill out Crachet

Read the entire post. I QUOTED. So please, mind your manners. I quote the entire message directly and you tell me to shove it? Shame on you.

[ijk]

8. No, very little truth

The vast majority of the weapons systems Kerry "voted against" were, in fact, merely individual items in a couple of omnibus defense spending bills he voted against. There were no floor votes on the individual systems. As Fred Kaplan, I think, put it, you could as well say Kerry "voted against" the existence of the armed forces, except that that would expose exactly how ridiculous you're being. It's not particularly unusual to vote against one of these bills, on either side of the aisle, for a wide range of reasons - because you think the total appropriation is too large or too small, for instance.

Kerry did vote specifically against the B-2 (stealth bomber) and Star Wars (back in its Reagan incarnation.) You can disagree with those votes if you want, but they're pretty defensible, and he was far from alone on them. Also he had some "no" votes on MX missile deployment, but those weren't a vote against the whole program.

See Kaplan's article. (No relation.)

[FatSlob]

9. Thanks, I'll be reading it. eom

[newyawker99]

24. Hi ijk!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[FreeSpeechCrusader]

10. Go to factcheck.org

They have info on this.

[AndyP]

11. I was in freeper land the other day

and they had a picture of the document that was from kerry's senate campaign in the mid 80's and it said that he wanted to cut all those things. I'll go brave the stench and look for it again. brb

[AndyP]

13. here it is

http://www.rotstan.com/election04/JK_Defense84.htm
They have been hyping this up pretty big over there. Not sure if it's a hoax or not

[sandnsea]

12. Here's an article

This is the best article I've seen on the topic to date.

"After completing 20 planes for which we have begun procurement, we will shut down further production of the B-2 bomber. We will cancel the small ICBM program. We will cease production of new warheads for our sea-based ballistic missiles. We will stop all new production of the Peacekeeper missile. And we will not purchase any more advanced cruise missiles. … The reductions I have approved will save us an additional $50 billion over the next five years. By 1997 we will have cut defense by 30 percent since I took office.

The speaker was President George H.W. Bush, the current president's father, in his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, 1992."

"It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically.

On a couple of the weapons, the RNC report cites H.R. 5803 and H.R. 2126. Look those up. They turn out to be votes on the House-Senate conference committee reports for the defense appropriations bills in October 1990 (the same year as S. 3189) and September 1995."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/

[AndyP]

23. Good article

Very helpful. That clears up a lot of stuff that the RNC has been tossing out lately.

[bowens43]

14. If true, it's certainly another reason to vote for him!!

The more I hear about Kerry the more I like him. The amount of money this country spends on the military is obscene.

[JoePizz]

15. Things to consider about that list:

The B1 bomber was developed as a supersonic nuclear bomber. This was a stupid idea- that's what ballastic missiles do, and they are far better at it. Instead, the B1 had to be redeployed as a low level bomber and is simply too big to be highly effective at what it now does. All because the B1 was a bad idea that was built anyway.

The last few B2 bombers built ended up costing us taxpayers about 2 billion each because we ended up cutting the contract short. The original price was only half a billion dollars. By comparison, a Nimitz class carrier costs about 6 billion, and an Arliegh-Burke frigate fully loaded and crewed runs about 1 billion. The B2 is a subsonic low manuverability bomber that can only be used over cities without a large scale cell phone grid, because the British discovered that they can track the damn thing over a city by watching interuptions in cell tower transmissions.

The patriot missile does not work. All that crap you heard about them shooting down SCUDs in '91 was mostly BS. Most of the scuds simply fell apart. Even the army says that they were over hyped and not very effective.

The Braldey is a peice of crap- A former colleage of mine was in Force Recon (according to him) they are too lightly armored to safely transport troops, and too lightly armed to effectively defend itself. It is also too slow to outrun or outmanuver heavily armed vehicles (e.g., tanks).

Even if those cuts he proposed are true, considering that our military was sized to fight a ground, air, and sea war with a major power (e.g., the USSR), and there is no USSR around to fight any more, our military has simply become bloated. As a side note, the military budget of the US is about equal with that of every other nation in the world combined right now. As another side note, the pentagon wastes most of the money it is budgeted. I read somewhere that only something like 25% of the money the pentagon gets goes to the troops (pay, housing, food, etc). The rest ends up going into various weapon systems- many of which don't work. Such as the Osprey, The Crusader, and Comanche. Or they go into weapons that work fine, except that they are unabled to deploy. Something like 50% of our B-52's are incapable of flight. They are lacking spare parts. Boeing does not make the parts any more. There will never be spare parts to get those other planes in the air unless they scrap existing planes. However, those planes have a complete set of crew, ground support staff, etc. Some of the other money the pentagon wastes goes into programs like the Navy's new gun program (I think it was supposed to go on the DD-21 (22?) project, but I'm not sure of that now). It is supposed to replace the main naval artilery (currently, 5" guns because some morons think that using a 16" battleship shell looks old fashion, despite the fact that it's cheaper and more effective) and has a range of 115 or so miles... Too bad the shell is so small it can't even destroy a modern tank. By comparison, the old Iowa class battleship guns could penetrat 32 feet of steel reinforced concrete.

Maybe if the military had a smaller budget they wouldn't simply waste the money on stupid crap.

[FatSlob]

16. You, Sir, are a wealth of information.

And, I agree...the old Iowa Battleships were the coolest. I got to walk the decks of the Missouri many years ago in Seattle. What an experience. I'd like to bring them back.

[Crachet2004]

21. Good post...

And if the military had a smaller budget maybe then we could keep up with some of the waste, fraud and abuse, you indicated.

There is no reason to spend, roughly, what the rest of the world combined does, unless you have scenarios in mind wherein you might have to do just that. It's bullshit.

And for all the money we spend, I really believe North Korea alone would give us a real run for our money...much less some of the larger powers like Russia or China.

I think we should pull back from the rest of the world and go to a hedgehog defense over here, until we can get our own house in order. Especially given our strong geographical position, I just don't see much threat of us being invaded, now or in the forseeable future. No need for our current level of "defense".

[AndyP]

22. Actually the B-1

is the BEST at what it does. The low level capabilities give it it's edge. It flys low-level with no problem, the terrain ahead is all computer mapped out and gives the best route to fly yet stay low and out of radar. It's payload is immense as well as nuclear capable.

Sorry love the B-1b's just gotta defend them. I agree 100% though with the budget of the military being huge, and we didn't need it anymore due to the fact that the USSR was no longer a threat

[chiburb]

17. If you sincerely want the truth, here it is:

Response to Attack on Kerry's Defense Record

The Republican National Committee has been spreading an email attacking John Kerry for supposedly trying to kill 20 different weapons programs in the early 1990s. Here are the facts:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127 /

Here is an excerpt from that article:

"It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically.

On a couple of the weapons, the RNC report cites H.R. 5803 and H.R. 2126. Look those up. They turn out to be votes on the House-Senate conference committee reports for the defense appropriations bills in October 1990 (the same year as S. 3189) and September 1995.

In other words, Kerry was one of 16 senators (including five Republicans) to vote against a defense appropriations bill 14 years ago. He was also one of an unspecified number of senators to vote against a conference report on a defense bill nine years ago. The RNC takes these facts and extrapolates from them that he voted against a dozen weapons systems that were in those bills. The Republicans could have claimed, with equal logic, that Kerry voted to abolish the entire U.S. armed forces, but that might have raised suspicions. Claiming that he opposed a list of specific weapons systems has an air of plausibility. On close examination, though, it reeks of rank dishonesty.

Another bit of dishonesty is RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's claim, at a news conference today, that in 1995, Kerry voted to cut $1.5 billion from the intelligence budget. John Pike, who runs the invaluable globalsecurity.org Web site, told me what that cut was about: The Air Force's National Reconnaissance Office had appropriated that much money to operate a spy satellite that, as things turned out, it never launched. So the Senate passed an amendment rescinding the money—not to cancel a program, but to get a refund on a program that the NRO had canceled. Kerry voted for the amendment, as did a majority of his colleagues.

At the same time, in 1991, Kerry opposed an amendment to impose an arbitrary 2 percent cut in the military budget. In 1992, he opposed an amendment to cut Pentagon intelligence programs by $1 billion. In 1994, he voted against a motion to cut $30.5 billion from the defense budget over the next five years and to redistribute the money to programs for education and the disabled. That same year, he opposed an amendment to postpone construction of a new aircraft carrier. In 1996, he opposed a motion to cut six F-18 jet fighters from the budget. In 1999, he voted against a motion to terminate the Trident II missile. (Interestingly, the F-18 and Trident II are among the weapons systems that the RNC claims Kerry opposed.)"


More here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x36925


On edit: I now see you've already been given this article. Sorry for the dupe.

[FatSlob]

19. Thanks for the link to the other DU thread...

I'll read it in the morning. I'm swamped at work right now.

[buckeye1]

18. This is my idea.

When you get this stuff. Send the Bush resume. I am sure it is at Buzzflash. Never let them frame the issues. Bush is a proven loser. That is the message. Nothing else matters. BUSH IS A LOSER!

[DrFunkenstein]

25. Here's Bush's Resume

George W. Bush Resume

Past work experience:

Ran for congress and lost.

Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie.

Bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas, company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax-payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox.

With fathers help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas.

Accomplishments: Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. Set record for most executions by any Governor in American history.

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my fathers appointments to the Supreme Court.

Accomplishments as president:

Attacked and took over two countries.

Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury.

Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history.

Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

First president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history.

Set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.

Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history.

Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period.

Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television.

Signed more laws and executive orders circumventing the Constitution than any president in US history.

Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

Presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

My presidency is the most secretive and un-accountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice has an Chevron oil tanker named after her).

Had more states to simultaneously go bankrupt than any president in the history of the United States.

Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world.

Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission.

First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board.

Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

Withdrew from the World Court of Law.

Refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

First president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 US elections).

All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).

Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

First president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

First US president to establish a secret shadow government.

Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

With a policy of 'dis-engagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years.

Fist US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.

Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive'.

Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects.

In the 18 months following the 911 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States.

Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war.

Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

Records and References:

At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

AWOL from National Guard and Deserted the military during a time of war.

Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view.

Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review.

For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (They can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)

[AngryAmish]

26. All lies.

[John_H]

27. Even worse! He voted to ban illiterate, AWOL cowards from the

Decks of aircraft carriers!!! That's not true is it? Please tell me it's not true!!!!!