Joe Biden's presidential run...and a warning.

[ginchinchili]

When my state finally has its primary I will write in the name of Joseph Biden as a statement of protest and so I can clearly and proudly claim that I voted for the very best candidate during the primary of the 2008 presidential election, though our national primary will be effectively over by then. I am angry and distraught over the ignorance shown by the Democratic Party once again, and their willingness to sacrifice their Party and their nation in order to nominate the candidate they determine to be the most celebrity-like.

Democrats had the ideal candidate in Joe Biden. His intellect was unmatched, and he not only believed in moving the Democratic agenda forward, he had the experience, the network of legislators, and the determination to get it done. He's a man of unparalleled ethical standards. Republicans could not dismantle his presidential bid for having done hard drugs or unscrupulous business arrangements for the sake of furthering his career. He's spent his entire life living the family values that Republicans can only pay lip service to. I honestly believe that many Democrats are turned off by his clean living, lending credence to the Republican's charges that the Democrats lack strong moral standards. He is not a particularly wealthy man, worth about $150,000, and has more in common with the average American than any other candidate. He lost his first wife and a baby daughter when he was 29 to a drunk driver and, as a result, he commuted to Washington everyday so that he could spend his evenings with his sons who were also hurt in that crash. He is the only candidate who had a real plan to get us out of Iraq, one that wouldn't further alienate his Party from the military--a very significant dynamic that the Democrats never seem to consider--and in fact, would have redefined the Democratic Party in the minds of our military personnel, something that will be impossible for Clinton or Obama. Biden's got a personal stake in Iraq's outcome: his son will soon be deployed there. He is an interesting, funny, and compelling man who is creative and quick on his feet. He would have come out of any debate with any Republican candidate looking like a winner just as he did the Democratic debates. Neither Obama nor Clinton have the same impact when they debate, and in a debate on foreign policy with, say, John McCain, they will be dangerously vulnerable. Obama would have to be arguing points that he's only read about. The Republicans could not have diminished Joe Biden's popularity in a general election by attacking his foreign policy or national security credentials because he knows more and has more experience in foreign affairs than any of the Republican candidates. He attracts Independents and moderate Republicans. He is the surest thing to victory that the Democrats had and the Democrats cast him aside for much weaker, riskier, candidates. And there is no upside to having done so.

I'm so profoundly disillusioned by the stupidity of the Democrats that I no longer consider myself a member of the Party. No, I'm not signing up with the Republicans. If that was to be my reaction over the latest Democratic debacle than I wouldn't have been so strongly in favor of Joe Biden. In fact, that's the point: The Democrats had to win this election and we can't afford to take any more chances--we really can't. But the Democrats can't adequately analyze the political climate and so we will lose again.

Since I know we can't afford to lose again, but the Democrats don't, I'm parting ways with the Party. On this fundamental point we are on very different pages. They suffer from the same malignancy suffered by the Republicans: they're unable to care about this country, only their own petty obsessions, and are handicapped by a very dangerous naivete and gullibility. Biden could have been to the Democrats what Reagan is to the Republicans, except with a legitimate legacy, not a fabricated and hyped legacy like Reagan's. He could have really brought a sense of unity to the country, and no one is in a better position to begin repairing the damage our nation's credibility has suffered under Bush. In fact, he already knows most of the world's leaders. There wasn't a better qualified candidate than Sen. Joseph Biden and the Democrats passed him up for either a man with zero international experience and credibility during a time of war and low international reputation, not to mention lots of history and associations that gives the Republicans plenty of ammunition to sink his candidacy during a general election, or a woman who would accept the Party's nomination with higher disapproval ratings than any other candidate in recent history, including George W. Bush, and is perceived as a very divisive and crafty politician. Democrats insist on losing and I refuse to be a part of it. America's demise continues and is, unfortunately, well-deserved.

[givemebackmycountry]

1. I liked Joe - I liked him a lot....

The only thing that I did not like about Joe was his vote on the Bankruptcy Reform Act.
I know he's from a state where credit card corporations are thick as thieves - but still.

Good post - I'll kick it and nom it!

[BobRossi]

4. I agree.

Aside from his vote on the bankruptcy bill he is the only candidate with any semblance of maturity, strength, and experience.

[Ninga]

2. Moral victories are hollow and serve no purpose for those who need a real voice.

This is not about Biden.

It is about those Americans who are still waiting in line to get a hand up and maybe, god forbid, a hand out.

This political war is still raging and you want to sit on the sidelines and ponder. Well brother/sister, dust yourself off and find a horse to ride, because people are depending on you.

[ginchinchili]

23. They'd better learn to quit depending on others and start depending on themselves.

Everyone's got their own vote; they don't need mine. Dependency is part of the problem. We rely too much on those who take advantage of us and so they continue to do so. What I'm saying is that a man or woman has to reach a certain standard before I will support them for the presidency. Neither of the Democratic front runners meet that standard, and I'm not going to vote for someone just because you or some group of people, who are unable or unwilling to grasp the current plight of our nation, choose to support a media darling because they've convinced you that they're hipper than Britney Spiers. Don't blame me if your candidate loses. Blame yourself for choosing someone for the wrong reasons.

[Ninga]

40. Good upstanding people have been reduced to dependency though no fault of their own

Jobs leave and cancer comes.

What are the right reasons in this season?

I believe the reasons I am supporting John Edwards is because he is aware AND willing and fully understands the plight of the nation.

[ginchinchili]

43. This is a discussion about voting and elections.

My point is that those people have one vote just like I do. Outside of the election process, I strongly and actively support helping those who need our help. I don't buy the argument that I have to vote for your candidate because people are suffering.

[rateyes]

3. I really do think that your conclusion is right on the mark...

except that, at this point in time, if the party nominates Edwards, we will win. If we nominate Clinton, we are sure to lose, IMO...and, if we nominate Obama, he has a slight chance...but, it will be too close for comfort if he should pull it out.

Biden was the most experienced in foreign policy. That's for sure.

I want the Democrats to win, as well. That's why it sickens me to see the better candidates biting the dust.

We could end up with a nominee who wins the primaries/caucuses, not by majority vote, but by a plurality of less than 40%...meaning that he/she will be a weak nominee.

Just my two cents.

[BobRossi]

5. Well said. nt

[rateyes]

6. Thank you. nt

[ginchinchili]

21. I do think that Edwards has the best chance of winning of the remaining candidates

but I'm afraid what I stated about our lost sense of priorities will affect his candidacy as well. He's not seen as having the "star power" that apparently Clinton and Obama are seen as having. Perhaps if Oprah had endorsed him...

[skipos]

7. I supported Biden, but I really don't get the protest vote

If it makes you feel better, go for it. People always talk about "sending a message" with their vote for candidates who have 0 chance of winning. What "message" did Nader send in 2000, and what positive effect did it have? What message did Lieberman send by getting his small % of support in the 2004 primaries? Any message is drowned out by the message of the victor.

I think a nomination of Clinton would be disasterous, and I am going to do everything I can to stop it. Right now, that means voting for Obama. Fortunately for me, I think he would be a good candidate and a good president.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lostnotforgotten]

9. I Am A Independent Progressive - Changed In 2004 Because Of The

Electronic Voting Machine Issue.

[givemebackmycountry]

11. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Are you serious?
We need to LOSE in 2008?
Are you out of your freaking mind?
Four more years of another Republican administration after the Monkey leaves (if he leaves) and there won't be a country worth living in come the NEXT election.

I understand abut Harry and Nancy but come on BE REASONABLE!

Any Dem is better than another four years of the BFEE in the oval office.

By the way - welcome to DU.
But, you got A LOT TO LEARN jean.

[Didereaux]

17. absolutely, positively spot on!

[ginchinchili]

30. The idea that Jean is speaking to is that if you beat your head against the wall long enough...

eventually it will hurt enough to make you stop. If the Democrats lose this election it won't be my fault or Jean's, it will be the fault of those of you who continue to choose the types of candidates who cause this kind of reaction. If it was just about my candidate losing then I'd agree with your argument, but it's about him losing without any viable alternatives to take his place. For example, we're at war right now, 2 wars to be precise. Barack Obama has no foreign policy experience. None. It defies all logic to put a dentist in charge of building a skyscraper. So the argument becomes, should we put the farmer in charge of building the skyscraper, offered by the other Party, or the dentist? I think either way we continue to set ourselves up for a train wreck of unfathomable proportions. I refuse to continue beating my head against the wall. These are the kinds of things Democrats must start thinking about before saddling themselves with a loser. You can't just keep making the same mistakes and expect everybody to stay on board. That's not realistic. Eventually, Democrats will either wise up, or cease to exist as a viable Party. And if the latter happens, don't blame me.

[moodforaday]

60. Corection:

Any Dem is better than another four years of the BFEE in the oval office.

No worse, maybe. Better, I wouldn't bet. I'm just taking issue with the sentiment that anyone is better than anyone else just because they carry a particular party card. It's just not true.

[iamjoy]

13. That's Just Crazy

We need to lose in 2008 to learn a lesson or something?

Yes, I've thought that too. Living in Florida I thought it would serve them right to lose our state and the election after screwing us voters in the primary.

Yes, it would serve them right to lose after the way Pelosi and Reid have been such wusses.

Yes, it would serve us right to lose if we run another pro-corporate hack.

BUT, if for no other reason we MUST win the election because we cannot afford any more justices with the mindset of Scalia on the Supreme Court. All of the Republican candidadtes are pretty much pledging that their judicial nominees will be like this.

We can't afford to destroy our country in an attempt to teach the Democratic party a lesson - however badly they need to learn it.

[ginchinchili]

32. Then chose a winner, not someone you know will not withstand the Repubs...

deconstruction tactics. YOU HAVE TO GO INTO THIS WITH YOUR EYES WIDE OPEN, and not allow former presidents and media darlings to influence your decision.

[Two Americas]

86. win lose win lose

Win what? Lose what?

It is not completely without merit to see the entire Clinton administration as the equivalent of serving up a big fat softball right over the middle of the plate for the Republicans to knock out of the park.

Was the Clinton administration "better" than the Bush administration? On the surface, of course it was. But any gains that were made during the Clinton administration were completely wiped out and then some by the next administration. All the time that Clinton was in the White House the Republicans were building and gaining strength and consolidating their stranglehold on the media. Did not the Clinton administration have a moral obligation to prevent the very conditions that arose during his administration and that subsequently destroyed the country?

"Being better than the Republicans" is some kind of booby prize, some sort of fool's gold.

A Democratic administration or a Democratic Congress that rolls over for the Republicans, or that allows the Republicans to increase their strength while they are out of office could well be worse than no Democratic Congress or administration. Merely holding the office gains us nothing if they are not going to use the office to fight for us, or if they leave office with the party impaired and the Republicans stronger than ever.

Let's start using our heads. And every time someone suggests we need a new approach, to then question their loyalty or to fall back on the "we must win!" fear tactics, is to my way of thinking a big part of the problem not part of the solution.

[Stand and Fight]

16. That is by far the most stupid statement I've read this year...

"Maybe the Democratic party needs to lose this election."

:eyes:

You do realize what has been happening over the last seven years of Republican rule, yes?

You do realize that most of the candidates on the Republican side -- save wacky Ron Paul -- are fully content with continuing Bush's insane policies, yes?

You do realize that anyone of the Democratic candidates stand a better chance of getting this country back on track, yes?

You do realize what you just said... Yes?

[robinlynne]

10. If you do that, check the elecitonr esults in your state to see if that vote was counted.

please.

[iamjoy]

12. I've Thought Of Leaving Too

I've thought of leaving because of the whole primary mess (I'm in Florida). Now, whether you blame the state party or the DNC, the end result is that voters in Florida have no say in who our party nominee is. None of the Democratic candidates are campaigning here and we are not invited to the National Convention. Interestingly enough - the candidates, state party and DNC have all have hit us up for money. Apparently, we matter on some things.

How can I be a part of party that cares so little for its voters?

[ginchinchili]

34. We're not abandoning them; they're abandoning us.

[Didereaux]

14. I like Biden for many reasons one being he doesn't give up the GOAL!

The goal is to win in NOVEMBER! He's not going to be on the ticket, but you can mortgage your soul that he will give every last drop of blood to see that the repug does not get in. That is Biden's heritage, and it is worthy. It is mine and so I will do what I can at lthis lowly level to help meet the goal.

[ginchinchili]

38. Nice tact, but personally I think Biden will be more focused on doing the people's work.

That's the way he is. Of course, he'll want a Democrat in the WH and he'll continue to direct the Dems from the inside toward being a better Party, like publicly financed elections. For my part I can't condone supporting an unqualified candidate. But if he or she deserves to win they will do so without the votes of myself and others who feel the same way I do. Every candidate should have to earn your vote. None who are running have earned mine. If they do, I'll vote for them. But at this point it appears that all they have left is rhetoric, and I'm not so easily swayed by talk.

[KittyWampus]

15. Joe Biden ran a lousy campaign. He managed to get attention for his Foreign Policy cred but FAILED

when it came to domestic policy.

Furthermore, the Media gave him some slight attention but not that much. That's the reality. If you're a candidate you have to figure out how to deal with that problem.

So why you blame Democrats or the Democratic party, when it's the freaking VOTERS themselves who decided against Biden is beyond me.

As a former Biden supporter, I reject your pessimism and misplaced anger.

[1corona4u]

24. It's a little hard to run an effective.....

campaign, when the 'top tier' candidates get all the attention, which, I don't think is even in dispute. Additionally, Joe wasn't in the pocket of special interest groups, hence, the lack of finances.

I don't know, but I'll take the honesty, and integrity campaign, over corporate/special interest bought, media hyped, campaigns any day. As to the domestic issues, he covered them plenty. Yes, Iraq was a main theme of his campaign, but I prefered that platform over 'hope' and 'change' any day. Joe Biden knew that nothing here at home changed until Iraq was resolved. Any candidate that says otherwise is lying, or they don't have a clue. We need the money we are spending in Iraq to work for the domestic issues that we are now faced with. He understood that.

If anyone had any questions about his domestic policies, all they had to do was ask. Joe Biden was one of the few candidates that actually welcomed questions from the attendees at his events.

Not to mention that his plans for domestic issues were all over the internet.

Joe Biden on the issues, domestic, and foreign;

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/video/biden_issues/?bcpid=824514863&bclid=860202213&bctid=823548282

[ginchinchili]

41. It's because you are very good at objectively weighing issues...

and reaching conclusions that weren't fed to you by the main stream media. If more voters were like you our country would be the great country it used to be. But it takes work and objectivity. Most of Biden's supporters came around to him only after a considerable amount of time and contemplation. He became the logical choice, making support of the others seem counter intuitive, particularly our two front runners, the media darlings.

[ginchinchili]

39. Can you say money$$$?

Money makes the difference, money and an intelligent, informed electorate.

[renegade000]

18. i agree

I like all our candidates for the Democratic nomination, but I originally backed Joe Biden because I thought he would have been unstoppable. The only issue I'm concerned with is getting a Democrat elected in 08. Everytime I decide who I am going to vote for I try to read as much information as I can on each candidate to really get a feel for each one. It was rather disheartening to hear people ask me who I'm backing and go, "wait...who's that?".

[Steely_Dan]

19. Spot On Post - Rec

You have expressed exactly my anxiety and disgust with the state of political affairs in our country. How this country could allow someone like Joe Biden, the most qualified candidate slip out of the race is beyond me. I completely agree with your post and am disgusted at the narrow minded Americans that do not know a good thing when they see it.

I suppose we get the leadership we deserve.

-P

[KittyWampus]

22. is it the 'narrow minded Americans' or the inability of the candidate to package his message?

[Steely_Dan]

25. I have posted before...

that Joe's campaign was lacking and I'm sure that there is enough blame to go around.

Just try and imagine the passion you feel for your candidate and have that candidate drop out.

I not only blame the short-sighted voter, I also blame Joe's campaign, the media (for picking rock stars over substance), and the caucus system.

You know what I find strange?
Almost EVERYONE on this board always responds to these Biden threads with..."Oh, I like Biden..." Of course, their are exceptions...but the response to Biden is almost always positive. I tend to think of DUers as more educated on the issues than the average voter. I just find it a shame that someone who is so respected, so qualified and so experienced is dropped so early in the race.

-P

[1corona4u]

28. Yeah, everyone liked him SO much....

but, not enough to support, or vote for him. :eyes:

Like I said, Joe Biden didn't lose. This country did.

[Steely_Dan]

29. Excellent Post, Corona n/t

[1corona4u]

35. And not only that Steely, but think about this for a second...

If Obama would have held to his statement that he would NOT be running for president this year, it would have changed the whole dynamic. It would have then been Hillary, #1, Edwards #2, Joe Biden/Richardson #3, and probably Dodd #4. I say Dodd at 4, because he never developed the 'likeability factor'.

So, with the way people feel about Hillary, it's highly probably they would have been looking more at Edwards and Joe. As more people moved away from Hillary and Edwards, they would have gone to Joe. IF it would have happened that way, I think Joe would be running 2nd right now. John would still be about the same, as would Hillary. I think Richardson might still be in the race, possibly tied for 3rd, but I think Dodd would be gone in this scenario too.



Just one more reason several of the candidates didn't make it.

[Steely_Dan]

48. I agree with your assessment...

The whole dynamic would have been different.

-P

[1corona4u]

26. See my post above.

[ginchinchili]

56. Unfortunately, you're right.

We get the leadership we deserve. I'm afraid we've got a lot of bad karma to answer for and it doesn't end with George Bush and his supporters.

[gateley]

77. Not the leadership I deserve!

I deserve Biden -- we all do.

[ginchinchili]

79. If we did we, as a country, would have voted for him. We didn't.

Americans are no longer very good at critical thinking. Not all Americans, but enough to tip the scales their way, and in a democracy that's disastrous.

[ginchinchili]

80. Came across this provocative article about the great literary critic Harold Bloom.

It's quite interesting and worth the read. I have a world of respect for this intellectual's opinion.
http://www.thewip.net/contributors/2008/01/according_to_harold_bloom_what.html

[gateley]

83. Yes, I read that -- and saved it. Brilliant. nt

[TwilightGardener]

20. Your candidate dropped out, so...fuck the party and the country?

The voters rejected him--you really can't argue with that, as frustrating as it may be. I like Joe, and I thought he would have done better in Iowa, but he didn't. If his message didn't resonate, if his appeal isn't enough to have earned him more than low single digits, then that's that. Hell, I'd vote for Edwards or Biden if Obama was not the nominee. They're not my first choice, but they're better than McInsane or Mittens or Fuckabee.

[Steely_Dan]

27. So...Tell Me

I assume you have at least as much passion for your candidate that many of us Biden supporters did. Can you be honest and tell me how you would feel if your candidate had been ignored by the press, was not able to financially match the top tier, had the most experience, is the most qualified (in your opinion) and was forced to drop out?

Can you just clear your mind for one second and try to imagine that?

-P

[TwilightGardener]

31. I'd think he wasn't very successful as a candidate, and accept that

what I want isn't necessarily what other people are looking for, and get over my hurt feelings and disillusionment. I liked Clark in 2004, and he lost, but it didn't stop me from voting for Kerry. Every Democrat I've ever voted for in Presidential contests lost: Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry (I did not vote for Clinton, because both times I was in transit during military moves, although I would have). That's the way it goes, I'm not about to leave the country because the Democrats lost.

[Steely_Dan]

33. Perhaps...

the events are too close to see it for what it is. How long, for example, did it take for you to regain your confidence in the system...in the process? Perhaps I need to get some distance from this...it's just too early.

-P

[1corona4u]

37. Hmm....

Interesting, you said;

"Every Democrat I've ever voted for in Presidential contests lost: Dukakis, Gore, and Kerry"


I wonder if you're going to continue that 'record' this year?

[TwilightGardener]

42. LOL! I have considered not voting, just so I don't jinx it again.

[1corona4u]

44. I've never picked a winner either.

[elleng]

58. But WHY did the Democrats lose,

on all those occasions? The SYSTEM forces such events; the 'system' is run by big business.

Its NO COINCIDENCE that Clark, Biden, Kuc, Dodd, Duk, failed; business-media was NOT going to give them attention deserved and needed to succeed. Notice how little attention Edwards is getting now? Notice recent threat by chamber of commerce/donohue? Notice candidates receiving most $ from big business?

We won't have excellent candidates unless/until we somehow change the system, and I don't see it happening.

Sorry.

[ginchinchili]

61. I heartily concur.

The system is broken and no longer serves the people. We have to devise a way to protect our elections from outside tampering, particularly corporate influence. The media, too, bears some responsibility, perhaps also a casualty of corporate meddling.

[inthebrain]

36. Biden was not forced to drop out

He quit on his own.

His run was rather disengenous and after his abortion and Bankruptcy votes it's no surprise the voters never bit. Even if he got the exposure you desired for him it would've gotten ugly. His domestic agenda is nearly as bad as the Republicans on economics and abortion.

You were better off with him getting less exposure. He has a run of the mouth that is absurd and every few weeks something stupid comes out. His calling Mexico a "corrupt culture" would have been enough to kill him in this race had he gottent the exposure from the press. It's one thing to attack the Mexican government and policies.

Entirely another to attack the culture.

[Steely_Dan]

45. Oh, Welcome Back "inthebrain"

I was wondering where the DU's resident Biden Basher had gone. Good to see that you haven't succumb to your own bitterness and hate.

-P

[1corona4u]

46. I can't seeeee hiiiimm...

LOL...but I can smell him, LOL

[CrispyQ]

75. ...

:rofl:

[Jennifer C]

88. LOL Corona

:spray:

[youthere]

91. LOL...me EEEEEITHER! Hahahahaha!

[inthebrain]

47. I have to appease the asolutists.

"If you're not with me you're against me"

You make George W Bush proud.

Biden was not snubbed by the media. He was not ignored and revieved TONS of face time with the pundits over the last 5 years.

He was a sell out on the Bankruptcy Bill and voters knew it as did he. That's why he said he dropping if he didn't finish in the top three in NH and Iowa.

[PatSeg]

50. You know, now that I'm no longer in "defense-mode"

I find your profound hatred of Joe Biden rather interesting and puzzling. It actually mirrors my feelings towards GWB which is very peculiar.

I don't know. If I had the time and inclination, I'd try to figure it out, but I don't think its worth the effort.

[livvy]

66. I have an assignment for you, should you be willing to accept it.

I'd like you to conduct a little survey. Go stand outside a shopping mall, or outside the local market, and ask people about the candidates. Just something simple would do like, "Do you have a positive or negative opinion of the following candidates?" I think you'll find that people will all recognize the names of the media's chosen candidates, but will say, "Joe, who? Did you say Kulchinick? Dodd or Dobbs? huh?" If you find someone who even knows who Biden is, I'd then like you to ask them what they think of his vote on the Bankruptcy Bill. If they have any thoughts on that, please explain to them what has been explained to you at least a brazillion times, why he voted the way he did.

Actually, you probably don't need to do this at all. I think you already know the results. But by all means, give it a try. It might do you some good. At the very least you might get some oxygen in your brain, and a breath of fresh air never hurt anyone.

[ginchinchili]

74. Did I miss some "in the brain" action?

Damn. Maybe I should take him off "ignore" just so I can find something to laugh about on this blog.

[youthere]

92. I wouldn't do that...we can still laugh at him while he's on "ignore"

[robbedvoter]

49. Sorry, but, did you say...John Mccain? Batshit crazy John McCain? 100 years in Iraq

John McCain? We need to worry about how ANY of our candidates looks compared to....cue in the Bush hug picture....Clue: Most Americans are fed up with this war.

[ginchinchili]

52. Clue: Most Americans voted for him in 2004.

Those that voted anyway. That's a fact you'd better write down and carry with you at all times up until election day. But if you prefer hype and spin over truth and substance, just keep telling yourself that Bush has caused America to stampede toward the left. Make it your losing mantra. And you might want to start practicing your excuses early so that when Batshit crazy John McCain is sworn into office you won't sound so batshit crazy yourself.

[Two Americas]

51. understood

Well reasoned post. I wanted to see Biden in the mix until the convention. Very disappointing.

I think I mentioned to you before that I thought Biden, Edwards, and Kucinich were the only three candidates who fully grasped the depth of the crisis we are in, and they have each taken different approaches to confronting it. Edwards is taking the old-school FDR Democratic party approach, focusing on the domestic crisis first, and in my opinion that will be most effective. Biden made a strong and credible case for starting with the foreign policy mess, and I found no fault in what he had to say. Kucinich has strayed away from a strong pro-labor approach and more and more into the realm of culture war issues, and has not been able to effectively organize his campaign, but I find no fault in what he has to say either. I would have loved to see many Biden and Kucinich delegates at the convention because of the important contributions they can make to the party. Had Biden, Kucinich and Edwards all had many delegates in the convention, and all voices could be heard, and all of the people had an opportunity to vote in a primary that was not a foregone conclusion, and then after that had the convention agreed on Biden as the standard bearer I would have been happy with that and enthusiastically campaigned for him.

Even though I supported Edwards over Biden, for the reason I stated above, that did not mean that I didn't support Biden and I was bitterly disappointed that he did not get a better shot.

I agree with you in everything you are saying about Biden's strength against the Republicans. I believe that we still have a strong opponent to the Republicans in Edwards. But I understand your bitterness and despair over this and share it to a large extent, and I fully support you writing in Biden. That cannot possibly hurt anything.

I also support your right to express your disillusionment with the party even to the extent of saying you are prepared to abandon the party. Loyalty to the people and to the future of the country takes precedence over loyalty to party, or else what is the point of having a party.

We need a candidate who stands strongly and forthrightly for Democratic party ideals and principles, who speaks for a program that we can all enthusiastically support and that has broad public appeal. "We must beat the Republicans so we need unity" is an admission on the part of people promoting that idea that we may not in fact have a candidate who stands strongly and forthrightly for Democratic party ideals and principles, and who speaks for a program that we can all enthusiastically support. Otherwise, there would be no need for the loyalty tests and calls for unity and statements that "anyone would be better than the Republicans."

I might be wrong about Edwards - do any of us flatter ourselves that we have the last word on this crisis and what the best path might be? - and I cannot and will not tell you that you are wrong about Biden. I do hope that you will consider what I have said about Edwards. If not, I respect your decision.

[ginchinchili]

53. If Edwards is still a viable candidate by the time my state's primary takes place...

I'll cast my vote for him, and do likewise in the general election. I think he'd have a good chance in the general, which, unfortunately, leads me to believe the Democrats won't give him the nomination. It's that bad, but I hope I'm wrong.

And thanks for your always thoughtful and intelligent posts. They're always interesting, well-considered, and show a genuine sensitivity toward our country's politics and the people involved, IMHO.

[Steely_Dan]

54. Well Thought Out Post

I too, appreciate your posts. They are always insightful and spot on.

-P

[gateley]

78. I just read an article that mentioned Edwards was the only candidate -- Dem

or Rep -- even MENTIONING Iraq now. The opinion was it's not politically positive for the candidates to bring it up at this time, especially since the economy has taken over the number one spot on the issues list.

For all I know, Edwards might be keeping it in his rhetoric because he DOES feel it's politically helpful, but I don't care what his motive is. If he keeps the issue front and center, I applaud him and am grateful.

[Two Americas]

84. gateley...

This is a good chance to thank you for all of your great contributions over the months. You are an inspiration. Thanks. I admired your posts as a lurker for a long time.

[gateley]

90. Awww, Two Americas --

I don't know what to say. Thank you. (and I keep thinking ME? an inspiration? Huh?)

:hug:

[butterfly77]

55. You said it all...

as we can see these people are not looking at the big picture. I am beginning to think that we will lose.

[ginchinchili]

57. Look what's going on now...

Obama's people are accusing the Clinton's of making racist remarks. This can only serve to hurt them both. If Hillary loses the black vote in a tight primary season and Obama wins the nomination, in part, because of it, Obama is sure to lose the general election because the American people won't want to go through 4 years of hearing leaders from the black community always crying "racism" every time Obama is questioned or criticized.

[gateley]

59. Our country's future is more fragile and threatened than any time

previously. My concern with the remaining candidates is that they don't fully grasp how very precarious our position is. I may be wrong, but I feel that each of their goals is WINNING. I believe Biden's goal was to "literally change the world" before it was too late.

After coming to support Biden following research into each of the candidates, I was convinced he was the best suited and most qualified to lead our country at this critical time.

When I think of the other candidates and consider giving my support to one or the other, concerns and fears come to the surface.

I'm terribly disappointed in many of my fellow Americans that they don't appear to be taking a pragmatic, realistic approach in their choice of candidate. They "like" the candidate, they "trust" the candidate, but we need more than that to help us decide. Especially now.

And I'm terribly concerned that the Dems might lose in the GE -- something I never would have considered a possibility a few months ago. But I felt that way in 2004, too.

[ginchinchili]

63. I'm with you, gateley. Biden didn't only stand the best chance of winning the general election,

but also stood the best chance of implementing real change. He's a realist with an honest grasp of the way the world and our country currently works, with all the problems pertinent to a US president's job. His respect and credibility in the world are already established. The things he could have done for the Democratic Party, our country, and the world! He has the credibility to make significant strides toward curbing greenhouse gases and increasing the utilization of environmentally friendly energy sources. He could have led the way to publicly financed elections, a cause he has always advocated. As you well know, I could go on and on. And of course there's Iraq. No other candidate has the credibility and knowledge to significantly improve the situation in Iraq and bring our troops home. The Democrats could actually have had a President who would have dramatically altered our military's view, and trust, of the Democratic Party, that is if that even matters to the Democrats. I've seen no indication that it does, except from Sen. Biden, and that dynamic is extremely, extremely important in US Party politics. The Democrats don't appear smart enough to recognize that.

These are just a few of the reasons why I'm left with no other choice but to disavow the label of Democrat. It's because they no longer represent me.

[Alexander]

62. Biden turned me off because he supports MBNA and the Drug War.

He also has an embarrassing list of gaffes a mile long and some really bad hair plugs, both of which would have been ammunition for the Republicans in a general election.

[ginchinchili]

65. Yeah, especially those hair plugs.

He should be ashamed of having had those damn aneurysms. Overcoming near death experiences should disqualify anyone from even running for president. That's exactly why our country has implemented the tacit "Only Fortunate Sons and Daughters Need Apply" in choosing presidential contenders. We have to eliminate those who have been challenged.

[Divine Discontent]

64. exactly

the mainstream media is so hot & heavy for a showdown between Obama & Hillary they have essentially ended the nominating process on their grounds that the other candidates just didn't hack it, or didn't have the support or money needed...

LOL what a effin joke. and I commend you for writing in Biden's honorable name.

[demommom]

67. Thank you so much ginchinchili!!

Thank you so much, for saying what I feel,but am not eloquent enough to put in words. We will now continue down that dark and murky road.

Until my involvement this time, I never realized how uninformed the American voter actually is and that they really do not care about the candidate's credentials or how that candidate has already proven that they can lead. Most Americans do not know what leadership is,imo.

It was said to me by a relative who lives Texas, (is originally from Delaware,)"I agree that he is the best candidate, but I'm voting for
.............. I just wish he was from Ohio or somewhere other than Delaware". Well he isn't and how fortunate for us in Delaware that he isn't. I intend to vote for Joe as a show of support for him,like Ginchinchil,and I will keep my bumper stickers on my car and wear my Biden gear to the voting booth. It will all be over by then anyway and I can't bear to vote for either one of the other candidates.

Our election system, beginning with the primary voting is seriously flawed.

We are falling as a nation people and if we do not wake up quickly,
our grandchildren,s children may well live under foreign rule!

Edited for spelling

[ginchinchili]

69. Thanks, but I must disagree on one point; you expressed yourself very eloquently.

I, too, am worried about our nation's superficiality. It shows up in so many things in our culture, but it stares us in the face during national elections. What's become of us? We can't think. I'd say it's not a good sign when a celebrity can get a DWI and have it help their career. We glorify money and all it brings while ignoring true sacrifice, acts of selflessness, and ingenuity (unless it brings you big bucks). I've come to the conclusion that struggle is good for the soul, and that the US has just had it too good for too long. The legacy we're leaving our sons and daughters is disgraceful.

[jlake]

68. I completely understand. I was 100% for Joe, and he would have been the

absolute PERFECT Candidate.....and one of our greatest presidents.
As hard as it was for me, I had to accept that he was gone and move on to Clinton.
I understand your feelings, and support your choice..... Biden is such a class act, and just what this country needs ... don't know why people couldn't see that.

[Steely_Dan]

70. Outstanding Thread...n/t

[ginchinchili]

71. Hi, Steely_Dan. It's always a pleasure.

Boy, it's looking like our warnings are coming to light even sooner than we could have imagined. The Democrats appear to have chained themselves to Obama and Clinton as the two stay focused on torpedoing each other's ships. I guess we'll all go down together. As I stated in another post, we can bet our bottom dollar that Karl Rove has dusted off his dancing shoes and is wearing them once again.

[Steely_Dan]

72. Indeed...

However, I think that we are doing a fine job of eating our own without Mr. Rove. That is the real sad part. I don't know which candidate "shines" more as the "star"...I just hope that when the star buns out and reality hits, they know what they are doing. Or at least, surround themselves with experienced and qualified people. Now, of course, I'm waiting for people to call me racist or sexist even though I marched in the streets for both causes.

Like yourself, I am beginning to think that the Democratic Party no longer represents my values and I am close to letting them go...after all they let go of me a long time ago. Between Nancy and Harry and the whole bunch of "do nothing" Democrats, I have lost my faith.

We had a chance. We had a chance to vote for reason and pragmatics. I am a firm believer that the pendulum must swing. It doesn't just automatically appear to the left. Those that understand this, knew that we needed a realistic approach to our problems. Before we can claim that we have returned our country to true "democratic" values, we have to fix the problems that currently exist and threaten our very existence. Biden represented this "beginning" of the pendulum swinging.

I plan to write an essay on this whole thing in the next couple of days. Your writing has inspired me to get back to the keyboard.

Thanks...

-P

[ginchinchili]

73. Sounds like it's already coming together.

I look forward to reading it. Please let me know or message me a copy so I don't miss it.

I do agree, Biden does represent that shift in that pendulum reversal you speak of. Democrats should take note of the kinds of legislators the American people voted into office during the last election that gave majorities to the Democrats. Take Jim Webb for example, hardly a radical liberal, but a very tough, pragmatic person who is seen as someone with strong ethical values and someone not afraid to take a stand for what he believes in. And someone the military will respect, not an insignificant point. Again, instead of carefully analyzing the details of the results of that election, too many Democrats have approached this current primary with this euphoric notion that the country has taken a dramatic swing to the left due to Bush's poor performance. A lot of conservatives and moderates see Bush as a disappointing missed opportunity, and would like to give that opportunity to another Republican, perhaps John McCain. And in going along with your astute observation about our political pendulum, John McCain might very well be representing the Right's ideal candidate to fit that pendulum's shift, just as Biden does on the left. What a shame it will be if the Republicans figure it out and get it right while the Democrats flounder our way to another defeat.

[David Zephyr]

76. Write in his name with great pride.

If you followed my posts here, Joe was almost my choice.

I will say it here with no hesitation: Joe Biden was the most qualified candidate to be president. Period.

He certainly wasn't fooled by the Kyle/Lieberman nonsense and now we know he was right as rain.

Only this month did I finally make my decision for Senator Obama.

ginchinchili, you won't find me in argument with you when it comes to Joe.

Write his name in with pride. :thumbsup:

[phillyliberal]

81. agreed.

i may do the same pal

[ginchinchili]

82. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[question everything]

85. He should have stayed

same for Dodd and Richardson.

I don't think that Kucinich has more money than Biden did, but he is staying.

He did not have to campaign, but give a chance to voters in other states, at least in the Super Duper Tuesday, to vote.

He was a "late bloomer." He moved from a joke who could not control his mouth to a serious stateman who shined in the debate. Certainly on DU, but perhaps in other places, he started getting notice after the debates.

He should have stayed.

[2rth2pwr]

87. zzzzzzzzz............

[jackson_dem]

89. Biden was screwed by the media

[LittleClarkie]

93. I did that in 2004 when our primary came around

Clark was still on the ballot, but had dropped out. So I voted for him anyway as a symbolic vote. He'd been my dad's choice as well, and my dad had just died. I felt I was voting for him too.