If Hillary deserves criticism for staying on the MI ballot, should DK get a pass for campaigning?

[TwilightZone]

Many are criticizing Hillary for remaining on the MI ballot. Why isn't there an uproar about a Democratic candidate actually campaigning there?

http://www.wkyc.com/news/rss_article.aspx?ref=RSS&storyid=81160



For the record, I think that the whole MI/FL thing is a travesty and all it's really accomplishing is the effective disenfranchisement of voters in those states.

I also like Dennis Kucinich and think that he probably needs all the help and media attention that he can get.

What I don't understand, however, is the justification for what seems to be a rather obvious double standard. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious - if so, please feel free to enlighten me.

Edit: typos and clarification

[Freddie Stubbs]

1. Perhaps many DUers don't really consider him to be a candidate

[TwilightZone]

4. Could be....

Or they may not consider him a legitimate threat to their respective candidates.

Thanks for indirectly inspiring this thread, by the way. I had noticed the other DU item about him being "treated like a rock star", but the connection didn't really click until your response led me to think about it.

[Occam Bandage]

Seconded. I don't really care what internet celebrities running vanity campaigns do.

[NoPasaran]

2. Some candidates are holy, don't you know?

The only "true" Democrats.
:sarcasm:

[TwilightZone]

9. "True" Democrats...

There may not be a phrase that annoys me more than that one. I interpret it as "people who agree with me on everything."

I once joked that someone should start "Democrats who agree with me on everything.com". Number of members: 1

[skipos]

3. I am voting UNCOMMITED. Edwards, Obama, Richardson, Biden supporters should do the same. nt

[MaineDem]

5. I think, even if Michigan gets its delegates back, DK will lose his because of this

The Rules are explicit. Candidates are not to campaign in states that violate the timeline.

[PassingFair]

6. For what it's worth....

All of his appearances are free.

And he DID try to get his name off of the ballot.

Unlike the DLC candidates.

[MaineDem]

7. Doesn't matter

DNC Rules prohibit campaigning.

"Campaigning" for purposes of this includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying campaign materials to be used in such a state.

[PassingFair]

8. DNC rules prohibited PARTICIPATING.

But Hillary is still on the ballot.

:freak:

[MaineDem]

11. No, actually, I quoted the Rule

Here's the whole thing.

C. (1)(b) A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities not specifically mentioned here are covered by this section."

The Rules are listed here: http://www.democrats.org/a/convention_2008/delegate/

Edited for spelling.

[dmallind]

12. facts don't matter when it's a Clinton or Dennis. Good info though. NT

l

[NoPasaran]

29. SInce you bring that up

How are supposed to believe that DK would be able to immediately get our troops out of Iraq, cancel the international trade agreements he hates and establish his Peace Department when he can't even get a freaking FORM FILLED OUT CORRECTLY?

Just curious.

[PassingFair]

33. Perhaps you mistake me for a DK supporter.

But since YOU bring it up....

How am I supposed to believe that HC would be able to get our troops out
of Iraq when she supports their being there, cancel trade agreements she LOVES
and establish a peace department she has no intention of starting?

Just curious.

Oh, and not pull out of a primary she pledged not to participate
in when other candidates pull out.

Disgusting.

[dmallind]

10. Because she's a foul loathsome Clinton and he's perfect, obviously. Standard DU double standard NT

jlj

[TwilightZone]

13. That certainly seems to be the case.

I notice that no one is jumping in here to explain why she's wrong and he's right.

Like I said, I like Dennis. I understand why he's doing this. But, if DU is going to argue incessantly about how Hillary is breaking the rules (which, as far as I can tell, she isn't), then we should certainly apply the same standards to the rest of the candidates.

[PassingFair]

14. Candidate. Singular.

Kucinich TRIED to have his name removed from the ballot.

He is obviously not a front runner in this election.

He doesn't plan on having his delegates seated, obviously.

According to the rules, Dennis will have to forfeit his delegates.

According to any imaginable ethical standard, Clinton should
have honored the pledge she SIGNED and taken herself out of the primary
as did the other candidates.

[TwilightZone]

15. Then, what's the point in campaigning there?

Sorry, but that simply doesn't make any sense. If he tried so hard to get himself taken off of the ballot, why is he campaigning there? One is a violation of the party rules; one isn't.

So, it looks like there are two options: he's an opportunist, or he's intentionally defying the party rules.

Either way, it's a double standard. I have seen endless conversations on DU about how Hillary is evil because she had the nerve to stay on the ballot. Dennis is actually *campaigning* there, which is a very clear violation of the rules.

[PassingFair]

17. Maybe he has something to say and this is a platform to say it from.

I'll let you know, I'm going to one of his free speeches on Monday.

And I'm voting "uncommitted".

[TwilightZone]

20. That is very possible, but it doesn't explain the double standard.

Why is Dennis held to one standard, and the rest of the candidates held to another?

[PassingFair]

47. Because he is there to force certain issues to be discussed.

Not to be elected.

Silly.

[dmallind]

16. Kucinich tried? Within the rules?

I mean his history on that is not all that good. How and when did he try? If he wanted off why is he actually and definitively breaking the rules by campaigning when she isn't at all? He's held to a different standard because he's not popular? What the hell kind of bass ackwards reasoning is that?

[PassingFair]

19. He sent the paperwork to our sec. of state signed by a staffer and

notarized.

Sec. of state sent it back and said it had to be signed by HIM.

He sent another form signed by him,
sec of state rejected that, said the form
had to be signed by him AND notarized.

I don't work for the guy.

Wasn't my fuck up.

Our sec. of state is a 'puke, by the way.

Kucinich camp looked into suing to get off the ballot,
but time had run out.

[dmallind]

23. Man he just has a terrible time understanding procedure

Poor guy - it seems like DMV-level bureaucracy is beyond his ability to understand or comply with.

He'd make a great president though.

So - why's he actually breaking the rules now? Even I don;t think he's stupid and that DNC rule is written pretty damn simply so I don;t think he can get away with the ignorance/gray area/poor me can't manage to jump through the hoops excuse this time.

[PassingFair]

25. I don't know, why is Hillary still on the ballot despite her pledge not

to participate in early primaries in violation of DNC rules?

[dmallind]

27. Participation?

My name's on a whole bunch of things I'm not participating in. So is yours no doubt.

[dmallind]

37. I don't know either - but it's just a big deal because it's Clinton

I don't care if she's on the ballot at all. It's politically smart to do it because only a trivial number of insider wonks care and in return she gets good press of a free lopsided victory. It will also probably sell will in MI if she is in the GE and MI is not all that safe a Dem state and has a decent ECV count. But the only reason the vast majority of the upset portion of that trivial number of insider wonks are getting in a tizzy is it's because it's Clinton. Why else the silence on Dennis, Dodd, FL, etc?

[PassingFair]

41. Maybe because the voters and the Michigan Party members

have been ANGRY about this for a long time.

This didn't happen yesterday, you know.

We didn't get to VOTE on this.

It was LEGISLATED.

And the DLC took advantage.

[dmallind]

48. That's why what?

Why people are only mad when it's Clinton? Why it's somehow not an astute move? I'm not following you sorry.

[PassingFair]

49. I guess one person's "astute move" is another person's cynical ploy.

Honesty, character, ethics, who cares about those things any more?

Vote for Hillary and the DLC.

You were made for each other.

There's obviously nothing else I can say.

[dmallind]

51. No I just really don't understand you.

I understand you don't like the move obviously - although it seems only for Hillary.

I just still don't understand which of my questions it was an answer to - I don't understand what this explains about why the double standard has been applied and why DK gets a free pass.

I certainly don't understand why it's a politically dumb move. I'm fully aware that some people are more on the idealist side to my pragmatist bias - and I at least fully acknowledge that both viewpoints are necessary and valuable. I even somewhat - as much as my own bias permits, understand why idealists have a bit of an issue with this, but I don;t understand why they have an issue only with Hillary and I don't understand how this is a bad move politically. How will it hurt her campaign or GE chances (which, if she is the nominee, are the party's chances obviously enough)?

[PassingFair]

52. Pragmatic Bias = Don't know the difference between right and wrong.

You are my first ignore!

DK doesn't get a "free pass".

DK isn't a serious contender for the presidency.

Dirty tricks are for Republicans.

Your "pragmatism" reminds me of some
of my republican acquaintances.

[dmallind]

53. Well for those who kindly left me off ignore

this means you must assume not a peep of dismay compared with howls of protest for someone breaking the rules far less egregiously is NOT a free pass, and that right and wrong depends on how popular a candidate is (and I'm the ethical cripple?).

If you are so far gone to consider dirty tricks to be staying on a meaningless ballot in a democratic society, when doing so will hurt no-one and help the election of a Democrat, then yep ignoring me is probably a good move. I get a lot more pragmatic than that so you saved yourself some heartburn.

[rinsd]

Dodd was the 1st to sign the pledge and he did not remove his name from the ballot.

He stated specifically that he saw no point in it.

[dmallind]

36. But he's not Clinton. NT

;

[William769]

18. K&R! for the hypocrisy on this board!

[Little Star]

38. Stop it with the reality stuff W769! They have their fingers..

in their ears going lalalalalala

[CyberPieHole]

21. Yes, he should because many DU'ers are hypocrites and hate Hillary Clinton...

...these cretins don't care about what is correct...their sole purpose is to tear down the first woman who has a great shot at being our first female President.


:kick: and recommend for Hillary Clinton our 44th President.

[PassingFair]

24. Yes. Because we are all self-hating woman haters!

:sarcasm:

:puke:

[PassingFair]

22. Every candidate except Gravel signed a pledge to not PARTICIPATE

in early primaries that were in violation of DNC party rules.

Not just to not CAMPAIGN in them.

Biden, Richardson, Edwards and Obama HONORED their pledges by withdrawing
from Michigan and Florida's primaries. Kucinich TRIED to withdraw from
Michigan, but wasn't allowed to due to technicalities.

Here is the PLEDGE the candidates signed:

Text of Pledge Letter

WHEREAS, over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to ensure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

THEREFORE, I , Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by the rules and regulations of the DNC. It does not include activities specifically related to raising campaign resources such as fundraising events or the hiring of fundraising staff.




Guess it depends on what the DLC definition of "is" is, as to what "participate" means.

The other candidates seemed to understand.

[dmallind]

26. usually it's wingnuts who try the "is" bullshit but I'll give you the same response.

Lost in all the handwringing is that it was Clinton's definition of "is" that was, and is, correct. If you were asked "is Mexico part of the Spanish empire?" would you say "yes" to it? Only people of that idiocy bring up the "is" crap.

Like I said - it's USUALLY wingnuts. Them I can understand.......

[PassingFair]

30. Bull.

The whole COUNTRY cringed.

Prevarication!

They pledged not to participate.

If you and I were running for something and we pledged not
to participate and I withdrew, I'd expect you to do the same,
not leave your name up there to mop up.

Sickening.

But not unexpected given the thought process.

[dmallind]

35. The whole country cringed when?

The "Is" thing? Sure but they all did the lemming sheep thing when Hillary got choked up and when Kerry botched a joke - that just means the whole country are a bunch of easily manipulated sheep, not that Bill Clinton doesn't understand the present tense.

The participation? there's probably not more than 1% of the country who know what's ghoing on in MI in any detail, and only 5% of them who give a rat's whether she's on the ballot or not.

[PassingFair]

39. I'm sure that's exactly what the Clinton camp is counting on.

:puke:

[dmallind]

46. So again - the cringe thing was just public idiocy then...

Why pass it on?

To be so irrationally biased against anyone with name Clinton to have to resort to years old false Limbaugh spin isn't all that defensible. It wasn't then either, and I for one at least can tell the difference.

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. It depends on "campaigning" is defined by the rules and regulations of the DNC

Do the rules define campaigning as not requesting to have you name removed from the ballot?

[rinsd]

32. Chris Dodd was the 1st to sign the pledge and he left his name on the ballot.

http://chrisdodd.com/node/2264

"Dodd communications director Hari Sevugan has also explained their reasoning. "We are committed to the importance of the Iowa and New Hampshire going first, and we signed the four-state pledge to hopefully prevail upon the DNC and the state parties to add clarity to that situation," he said. "However, it does not benefit any of us if we are the nominee to pull our name of the ballot and slight Michigan voters."

By your deluded logic all of the candidates are participating in FL (and yes I am aware of what was required to remove one's self from the FL ballot).

None of the candidates is campaigning except for Obama surrogates who are attempting to rectify their bondheaded PR stunt from earlier in the year withdrawing in the 1st place.

[PassingFair]

34. Florida wouldn't ALLOW candidates to remove their names from the ballot. n/t

[rinsd]

40. No, they could. They just had to declare they were no longer running at all.

But your logic says existence on ballot= participation.

You'll also notice that the pledge allows for fundraising activity and the hiring of state fundraising apparatus.

If the IA, NH, NV or SC Dem parties have issue with Hillary still being on the ballot they can speak up. Its their pledge after all.

Also according to your logic, campaigning in the state does not matter even though the pledge is SPECIFICALLY against that.

So basically you're full of it.

[PassingFair]

43. Right.

I left my name on while the other contenders withdrew,
but I'm not participating.

Black is White.

Day is Night.

Who is full of it?

Clinton is.

And so are Y-O-U.

[rinsd]

44. LOL. Clinton name on ballot = crime, Kucinich actually campainging = no big deal.

How utterly transparent....

[PassingFair]

45. They are both wrong.

At least DK tried to get off the ballot.
He knows he has not chance at the nomination.
So do you.

Cynical, ethically challenged Clinton is
gaming the system.

Typical.

[MadBadger]

28. Both are wrong

There is no double standard with me. I'm really not a fan of DK anyway.

[bullwinkle428]

42. I wish he made an effort to campaign like this in Iowa

rather than being the invisible man...I still feel like he didn't take the voters of Iowa seriously given their status as "first in the nation".

[Kucinich4America]

50. DLC hypocrisy as usual

If Hillary wins Michigan, they want the delegates seated. If Dennis wins, they want him ignored.

[dmallind]

54. tell you what

if Hillary wants the delegates seated and none of teh other caididates do, I'll switch my opinion.

Until then, it's only a big deal because it's Clinton doing it, and nobody gives a peep about Dennis other than the few with enough self-repect to realize the hypocrisy AFTER it was pointed out. Absolutely no-one raised this as a Kucinich issue and he's the one actually breaking the rules. Neither did I of course, but that's because it's NOT an issue for either of them to me - because I don't care about who's on the ballot in a meaningless primary and I know Dennis has problems with rules and paperwork already. Consistency is key - all else is intellectual dishonesty and emotional bias.