Day one: Waiting for someone to cite what rule Hillary broke from the DNC concerning Michigan.

[William769]

[Atman]

1. She uses Windows Vista

Sorry, William. I saw your name and couldn't resist.

.

[William769]

2. And I'm still loving it!

:rofl:

[skipos]

3. None that I know of. But I wouldn't vote for her if she was the only one on the ballot.

I will vote UNCOMMITTED.

[William769]

8. I have no problem with what you do.

I have a major problem with people saying Hillary broke DNC rules concerning Michigan.

So I decided to hit the problem head on. And if no one answerers the question, then I am assuming we won't hear about it anymore and move on.

[Cameron27]

4. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me

why only Clinton's being attacked, when Obama has his name on the ballot in Florida.

[HeraldSquare212]

11. I think they're all on the ballot in Fla, no? nt

[Cameron27]

17. That's my point.

It's a bit hypocritical for people to attack Clinton and not Obama and Edwards, when they're doing the same thing.

[HeraldSquare212]

25. Nope - because she stayed in in Michigan when no one else exc. Kucinich did

and my understanding, at least from comments here, is that his staff couldn't or didn't do the necessary paperwork in time. I have to imagine getting off a ballot was low priority for a resource-strapped campaign.

[HeraldSquare212]

28. See? They actually withdrew.

from Michigan SOS website:

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127--177580--,00.html


Four Democratic presidential candidates - U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, U.S. Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del.) and former U.S. Sen. John Edwards - filed affidavits with the Michigan Department of State requesting that their names be removed from Michigan's Jan. 15 Democratic Party Primary ballot.

[TwilightZone]

29. How does that explain Florida?

There seems to be a double standard at play here. If the situations in Michigan and Florida are similar, then the Big Three have all broken whatever rule applies, right?

[HeraldSquare212]

40. I think the difference was, people expected some kind of resolution in Florida

so that delegates would count. But your question was about Michigan, and in Michigan she has chosen a different position than the rest of the candidates.

[ieoeja]

68. It was too late to apply for removal from the ballot. n/t

[HeraldSquare212]

5. I think it's Michigan that broke the rule

The DNC wanted SC and NV to go next to add some balance regionally to the early contests; they added SC because black leaders complained the contest was usually over by the time it got to states with large black populations. So, she's sort of dissing them by staying in, IMHO. And of course NV was added to include hispanics and get the west into the mix.

I think the candidates withdrew voluntarily in deference to the DNC and because the delegates wouldn't or probably wouldn't count.

[Cameron27]

10. But Obama, and I think Edwards also,

didn't withdraw their names on the ballots in Florida, which also broke DNC rules.

[William769]

14. You are correct

Talkabout pandering! Saying one thing and doing another.

[ieoeja]

69. Because Florida would not let them withdraw (deadline passed). n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

6. Don't worry, it's just another excuse to attack Hillary. nt

[papau]

7. she broke no rule - as with Florida, she and the others are not campaigning in either state - she

was already on ballot when date change occurred - and the date change was final only a few weeks ago - well after the deadline to remove your name had passed. Obama looked at the polls that showed him losing badly and tried to make lemonade out of that lemon by not being on the ballot.

[HeraldSquare212]

36. Nope, the others were able to withdraw in time nt

[ieoeja]

70. Which they did the last day not wanting to give Hillary a chance to follow their lead. n/t

[papau]

75. the others withdrew before the court had ruled

[wyldwolf]

9. well, the 'problem' most cite is she chose the people of MI over Howard Dean.

[goldcanyonaz]

16. At least someone put the people of Michigan first. nt

[TwilightZone]

20. Funny...don't people usually complain about putting "party" ahead of the voters?

[madfloridian]

23. That's a silly statement.

I think most realize that she will get the huge number of delegates from FL and MI. MI because she is the only one on the ballot. FL because no one else had a chance here. It may have changed a little here, but not much.

She won't get them right away, but they will be hers is the perception.

I am furious with both states because they chose a scapegoat to blame whether than admitting they openly broke the rules.

You are still turning everything into something it is not. That is the OLD Democratic party style...and it may be around for a while in spite of activist efforts. But there is a NEW one lurking.

[wyldwolf]

43. yet you just confirmed it

You just confirmed you're furious MI broke party (Howard Dean) rules.

[KittyWampus]

49. They aren't Dean's rules. If you're honest you'll admit that. They're DNC rules which existed before

Dean arrived.

Why are you lying by saying they're 'Dean's' rules?

This is a Democratic Party primary. The Democratic Party has a structure with rules.

Two states chose to knowingly break those rules.

[wyldwolf]

54. if you were honest you'd admit the only reason you give flip is because Dean is the DNC chair

[madfloridian]

56. Now that is a childish statement meant to anger over something from 2004

It is just silly.

[wyldwolf]

57. it's funny how you so often have to answer the same post twice

[LiberalFighter]

66. She will get them if the voters vote for Clinton

I don't know the process but there are also uncommitted delegates and it could end up mostly for that group instead of Clinton.

Then there is the situation of whether the delegates will be seated and if they are not they won't get to vote anyway.

[riqster]

12. I've been wondering that myself

...thanks for the topic.

[cali]

13. I never claimed she broke a rule

I claimed that it was wrong of her to leave her name on the ballot in light of the DNC decision to strip the delegates. She's likely planning to pressure the DNC to reinstate the delegates as she'll undoubtedly win them. That stinks.

[William769]

18. This is in no way directed at you or your thread cali.

But it is directed at some people in that thread.

I know excately what you were saying, we just have a difference of opinion on what is happeneing.

[Lucinda]

76. They'd be fools not to, unless they want Michigan to go Rep in the general.

[RoadRage]

15. Hillary initially said she was planning on following the DNC rules..

"But all Democratic candidates last week agreed to follow the DNC rules. Contending that early primary states "play a unique and special role in the nominating process," the Clinton campaign statement said "the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role." What the statement did not say is how much she actually welcomed Michigan and Florida breaking the rules."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20070906/ai_n19519096

Then she went ahead and stayed on the ballot anyway. Say one thing.. do another? That's why i'm voting for Obama.

[William769]

22. Then please explain Florida to us.

And why all the candiates are on the ballot there.

Speaking of one thing and doing another.

[madfloridian]

34. In FL they can't get off the ballot unless they drop out of the race.

FL and MI have screwed up the primary, perhaps on purpose, by breaking the rules and moving up. Maybe they wanted the chaos, maybe they had another reason. Since most of the ones involved in moving up the primary in both states are chairs of a certain campaign...one can just go hmmm...mmmmm

[William769]

37. Then if they are so dead sent and doing whats right, why not go to court for a remedy?

[MaineDem]

41. Courts have rules that it's a party process and they won't intervene. n/t

[madfloridian]

59. Oh, come on. You know all about the lawsuits.

Let's not play games here. It is why I so despise the ones in Florida who broke the rules and then sued.

[RoadRage]

42. The OP was about Michigan.. not Florida NT

[William769]

47. So you want me to start another one for Florida?

[RoadRage]

51. Yea.. if you have a question about FL...

The OP asks what rule Hillary broke about MICHIGAN. So I replied.. regarding MICHIGAN.

As far as I can tell, no rules were broken by any of the candidates regarding Florida. They're not campagining there - and all of them still have their names on the ballots.. BECAUSE PER FLORIDA'S RULES YOU HAVE TO STAY ON THE BALLOT IF YOU'RE STILL IN THE RACE.

Different States.. Different Rules.

[Cameron27]

24. And so did Obama and Edwards

in Florida.

[RoadRage]

44. All of them are on the ballot in FL -

FL won't allow you to pull your name off of the ballot unless you drop out of the entire race. MI does not have the same rule.

[moriah]

38. I never saw....

... where leaving your name on the ballot was a violation. If so, then Obama and Edwards also violated by leaving their names on the ballots in FL. Of course, they had reason -- if they withdrew from FL completely, as I understand it their names won't be on the general election's ballot either.

What could incur sanctions is campaigning in those states.

"There is a new rule that imposes new sanctions on presidential candidates. If a state, any state, violates the rule on timing/the window, presidential candidates will face sanctions if they campaign in that state. Examples of campaigning include: making personal appearances in the state, hiring campaign workers, and buying advertising and so on."

I'd like to see just what those sanctions are.

[TwilightZone]

19. She's not campaigning there, so I think it's a non-issue.

[goldcanyonaz]

21. It's unfortunate that no one is, it's like Michigan doesn't even matter.

[TwilightZone]

26. Agreed.

We constantly talk about ensuring that people don't get enfranchised, then the system ends up doing exactly that.

[William769]

27. And yet all the people that have been screaming about NH.

Correct me if I am wrong have been silent on Michigan and Florida.

[TwilightZone]

31. Florida, maybe, but probably not Michigan.

The people screaming about NH would have a similar motivation to have a problem with the situation in Michigan. Florida, they would probably ignore because that doesn't fit the agenda.

[Lucinda]

77. Kucinich is. And going against his pledge.

[MaineDem]

30. 2008 Delegate Selection Rule 20.C.1.b

C. (1)(b) A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities not specifically mentioned here are covered by this section."

Most of the candidates withdrew from the ballot. Staying on does not explicitly violate this rule. Only if they campaign does this rule come into play, IMHO.

[TwilightZone]

32. From what I understand, Hillary isn't campaigning in Michigan.

So, that wouldn't seem to apply.

[William769]

33. My understanding also.

But I still trying to figure out Florida. No one seems to be talking about that.

[MaineDem]

35. That would be Rule 20.C.1.a

Let me see if I can't find a copy rather than typing it all out.

Found it.

Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party
provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes
the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior
to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the
event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after
such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to
the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by
fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty
(50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National
Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from
that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In
determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s
delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the
nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the
next nearest whole number.

I don't know why they were stripped of all delegates. I'm sure there was a ruling.

All the Rules are here: http://www.democrats.org/a/convention_2008/delegate/

[HeraldSquare212]

39. The candidates could have withdrawn from Florida

The state on 9/23 ignored the DNC's threat and 30-day deadline to change the date. The deadline to withdraw was 10/31. I know there was some talk at the time that a deal would still be made, so that's all I can think of, given that most of the candidates did withdraw from Michigan by the deadline, which was also 10/31, I think.

[madfloridian]

61. BS, Willy 769...you know all about what went down in Florida

and all about all the lawsuits, and the ones who did it for motives that were not as pure as wanted primary change.

That was BS too.

Stop the naive act.

[William769]

67. And yet the candiates had a chance to bow out before the deadline and didn't

Now who's BSING who.

[madfloridian]

72. Are you talking about FL or MI...and why are you changing the topic again.

?

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Only one candidate is campaigning is Michigan

Can anyone guess who?

[TwilightZone]

48. A Democrat?

I knew that McCain and Romney were duking it out in MI, but I didn't think anyone on the Dem side was campaigning there.

Edit: aha. http://www.wkyc.com/news/rss_article.aspx?ref=RSS&storyid=81160

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Only one DEMOCRAT

[TwilightZone]

63. Yikes.

I honestly hadn't made the connection until your first response. Interesting.

[elixir]

52. Mitt Romney - he really needs this to remain credible.

[TwilightZone]

64. McCain and Romney are duking it out over Michigan. There's a Dem campaigning there as well.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/rss_article.aspx?ref=RSS&storyid=81160

[elixir]

46. She didn't break any rules, she just signed up for something nobody thought was going to happen

[TwilightZone]

50. An interesting sidenote

Credit to Freddie Stubbs (above) for indirectly pointing it out.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/rss_article.aspx?ref=RSS&storyid=81160

[William769]

58. And I got lambasted in another thread because I said he kew what doing concerning michigan,

Thanks for the link.

[TwilightZone]

65. I started a thread.

I'm curious to see what the justification is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4033688&mesg_id=4033688

[elixir]

53. It's a campaign. If the other's withdrew, that's fine but don't censure HRC for her actions

She didn't do anything wrong, in fact she did something smart. She, and all the other candidates I assume, are in this to win the election. No rules were broken.

[MaineDem]

55. Unless she campaigns in Michigan.

But Michigan has already been stripped of delegates, theoretically.

[vee]

60. Rule of sound judgment.

[dmallind]

71. yes it's horrible judgement to get a free win even if meaningless

I mean the press of her getting 75% or so of the viote in MI will hurt her terribly right? No matter how much Tweety et al remind people it doesn't matter in delegates, there will be absolutely no coverage of lopsided vote totals that will generate positive PR amongst the masses? Obviously the entire electorate is made up of massively interested well informed partisan Hillary haters who will see this not as a free easy win but a deplorable NONbreaking of ruiles. Yeah, OK....

[CyberPieHole]

73. Clinton didn't break any rules...Obama and Edwards were suckers to drop out...

Clinton cares about the voters, unlike those other candidates. I hope she wins there and that she gets the delegates. What makes people think that if a party dis~enfranchises an entire state that they will come back and vote for them in the GE? It's a stupid assumption and mistake by the DNC.

[CyberPieHole]

74. Kick & recommend n/t