I really like Obama, but must admit, I'm concerned about his church

[faithfulcitizen]

I hope I don't get flamed for this. I'm serious, he's (now) my pick. But, my mom (who's for Hillary) sent me this article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59600 I defended him. So, out of curiosity, I went to this church's website: http://tucc.org/home.htm and I'm starting to get worried because if you read the bulletin, it's so political. Some snippets:

"Bringing the war to an end and restoring health and wholeness to Iraq remains our urgent goal. To that end, many UCC members have visited their Congress persons or senators in district offices during the recess, delivering the Pastoral Letter on Iraq.

"ACTION ITEMS
6. Do not shop at Wal-Mart or Sam’s Club."

"CHURCH-IN-SOCIETY ministry presents candidates’ forum 2008- Make the right vote! It could be the most important vote that you make this year!"

"ADOLESCENT SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES- workshops on gender identity issues, as they relate to youth and schools, Topics: statistics, mental health issues and legal responsibilities, Friday, January 25, 8:30 a.m. – 4:00 p.m."

I realize perhaps there are are cultural differences between this church and mine, but I do not like churches that tell me how to vote, who to vote for, where I cannot shop, and how God is going to fix someone's sexual orientation in a workshop. I believe Obama when he says he doesn't agree with everything his pastor says. But, some will make a lot of hay of this stuff. Someone said Oprah also attends this church. Anyone know if it's true? Just curious. I'm really hoping Obama is electable in the GE, please someone assure me that he is?

[Colobo]

1. Oh, Lord...

Why?

[BeyondGeography]

2. The Sam's Club thing could torpedo his whole candidacy

O. needs a reality check on this.

[faithfulcitizen]

56. I know it's not important. But seriously, I've never seen something like that in a church bulletin.

it's just strange to me. I think, what if I went to a church that says "ACTION ITEM: Boycott Starbucks"

[Capn Sunshine]

82. Then you haven't been paying attention.

The RW Megachurches ( "Justice Sunday" ---remember that specious bit of theater?)
have long featured bulletins and actually have Republican campaign literature in their lobbies.

A Pasadena church was taken to court by the IRS for positing an antiwar message for its congregation.

Churches have long been involved in politics to further causes witha religious basis.

The Original post seems more akin to concern trolling

[faithfulcitizen]

Dupe.

[faithfulcitizen]

92. OMG, this is the POINT. So, it's okay when it's us?

You're probably right though...I posted 860 some posts over the last 4 years, just to post a surprise sneak attack on Obama.

[EstimatedProphet]

153. No, it's not OK when it's us. It's not us.

A church having political tips and discussion is nothing new. what is bad about the megachurches is that they make membership (and therefore "salvation" for the gullible) contingent on completly submitting to the pastor. In UCC there's political discussion. In megachurches there's oebyance, and any straying results in excommunication and shunning by the community.

[LostinVA]

123. Seeing that item makes me LOVE his church

[grasswire]

3. good thing no Unitarians are running....(eom)

[Nailzberg]

54. Gravel hasn't dropped out yet.

He's a yoo-yoo!

[grasswire]

58. oh right, I forgot that!

But if the politics at UCC are suspect, then the UUs will be way over the top.

[Nailzberg]

69. Oh yeah! Big time over the top. n/t

[krabigirl]

138. I didn't know Gravel was a Unitarian. Very cool.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Concern noted.

[Cha]

5. Sounds good to me..are

you sure you're not for whom your avatar endorsed?

[faithfulcitizen]

9. yes, very disappointed in him actually. Funny, I was really hoping for Gore.

[murielm99]

6. Worldnetdaily???

:rofl:

[madfloridian]

7. World Net Daily is a very right wing site....

I have a lot of friends who attend that church, and it's great.

[Cha]

20. You have friends who

attend the church that Obama goes to? It sounds very active from what I read in the OP..

[faithfulcitizen]

23. That's very good to know on both accounts.

[Barack_America]

8. Is this really so different than the requests that other churches are making

...on their members? I'm not so sure. But I do respect your concern.

[faithfulcitizen]

17. Exactly my point. I left my church because they started putting James Dobson's movie picks

in the bulletin.

[mac2]

49. Sorry you had to do that

In times of religious tyranny for a political agenda and Evangelical movements more people leave their churches than they gain.

People who live in America want to choose their own leaders and not be forced to conform to narrow social agenda and actions.

[madfloridian]

10. Tell Momma Howard Dean is a member of that as well.

See if that upsets her also.

[Fenris]

11. Where do you get that nonsense about "fix[ing] someone's sexual orientation in a workshop"?

It never once mentions "fixing" sexual orientation. It's a workshop on youth gender identity issues.

[mac2]

53. As far as I know you can't change genes or

sexual orientation. They are born with it.

[faithfulcitizen]

62. You're right, it doesn't say "fixing". It says...

"ADOLESCENT SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY ISSUES- workshops on gender identity issues, as they relate to youth and schools, Topics: statistics, mental health issues and legal responsibilities."

I suppose I read into it when I saw "sexual orientation" and "mental health issues" in the same seminar. I could be wrong. :shrug:

[mac2]

73. Obama is against Gay marriage because of his faith?

What answer do they have but to deney their sexual orientation and become one of their flock?

[musicblind]

113. ucc and gays

You probably are wrong, because the United Church of Christ has been very pro-gay, and endorses gay marriage. I wouldn't think they would have workshops changing sexual orientation. Pretty sure they wouldn't. I'm gay, and used to attend United Church of Christ.
But it's okay, I would have assumed that too if I didn't know more about UCC.

[faithfulcitizen]

136. Thank you. Again, this is good to know.

And not directed at you. But, I thought a political forum was for this very purpose, rather than calling people names because they are just too lazy or childish to respond with explanations or thoughtful opinions.

[1corona4u]

12. Yes, it is also O's church.

[JDPriestly]

13. Those aren't the scary parts. And that is why there are no

Unitarians running. (I'm a Unitarian.) You make choices in life.

[TheDonkey]

22. Gravel was

Will America ever be ready for a UU President! ;)

[JDPriestly]

59. Good for Gravel.

[JDPriestly]

155. John Adams was a Unitarian. Jefferson's beliefs were Unitarian but he was not a member.

Adams was raised a Congregationalist, becoming a Unitarian at a time when most of the Congregational churches around Boston were turning to Unitarianism. Everett (1966) argues that Adams was not a deist, but he used deistic terms in his speeches and writing. He believed in the essential goodness of the creation, but did not believe in the divinity of Christ or that God intervened in the affairs of individuals. Although not anti-clerical, he advocated the separation of church and state. He also believed that regular church service was beneficial to man's moral sense. Everett concludes that "Adams strove for a religion based on a common sense sort of reasonableness" and maintained that religion must change and evolve toward perfection.<49>

. . . .

In 1796, Adams denounced the deism of political opponent Thomas Paine, saying, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will."<51>

The Unitarian Universalist Historical Society sheds some light on Adams’s religious beliefs.<52> They point out that Adams was clearly no atheist by quoting from his letter to Benjamin Rush, an early promoter of Universalist thought, “I have attended public worship in all countries and with all sects and believe them all much better than no religion, though I have not thought myself obliged to believe all I heard.” The Society also relates how Rush reconciled Adams to his former friend Thomas Jefferson in 1812, after many bitter political battles. This resulted in correspondence between Adams and Jefferson about many topics, including philosophy and religion. In one of these communications, Adams told Jefferson, "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion." In another letter, Adams reveals his sincere devotion to God, “My Adoration of the Author of the Universe is too profound and too sincere. The Love of God and his Creation; delight, Joy, Tryumph, Exaltation in my own existence, tho' but an Atom, a molecule Organique, in the Universe, are my religion.” He continues by revealing his Universalist sympathies, rejection of orthodox Christian dogma, and his personal belief that he was a true Christian for not accepting such dogma, “Howl, Snarl, bite, Ye Calvinistick! Ye Athanasian Divines, if You will. Ye will say, I am no Christian: I say Ye are no Christians: and there the Account is ballanced. Yet I believe all the honest men among you, are Christians in my Sense of the Word." The Society also demonstrates that Adams rejected orthodox Christian doctrines of the trinity, predestination, yet equated human understanding and the human conscience to “celestial communication” or personal revelation from God. It is also shown that Adams held a strong conviction in life after death or otherwise, as he explained, “you might be ashamed of your Maker.”<52>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams


Like many others of his time (he died just one year after the founding of institutional Unitarianism in America), Jefferson was a Unitarian in theology, though not in church membership. He never joined a Unitarian congregation: there were none near his home in Virginia during his lifetime. He regularly attended Joseph Priestley's Pennsylvania church when he was nearby, and said that Priestley's theology was his own, and there is no doubt Priestley should be identified as Unitarian. Jefferson remained a member of the Episcopal congregation near his home, but removed himself from those available to become godparents, because he was not sufficiently in agreement with the trinitarian theology. His work, The Jefferson Bible, was Unitarian in theology. For a slightly different analysis (one that slights the fact that the Unitarians were not formally organized into a sect until 1825), see the relevant "Matters of Fact" factsheet at the Monticello website.
http://www.famousuus.com/bios/thomas_jefferson.htm

[faithfulcitizen]

30. I'm sorry to be so naive, could you please explain?

This is the 3 or 4th mention of Unitarians. Is that the denomination of this church?

[RebelOne]

145. Here's an explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

[JDPriestly]

154. Sorry, it's an in-joke. I'm the Unitarian

Obama is United Church of Christ. Both are normally liberal religions. Obama's church professes to have something to do with Africa. I am not familiar with that. Obama's church refers to W.E.B. DuBois on its website (or at least did a few days ago). I posted an inquiry about this. The Obama voters could not explain what this is about. A minister from the Norwegian Lutheran Church explained to me that some churches maintain some kind of relationship with the country of their origin. That is, of course, something I am not familiar with. I did not realize that. I have been assured that Obama's church does not discriminate against white people based on race. Perhaps I am over sensitive, but I think this post might have been a flame against me. I can deal with it with a sense of humor. The points quoted above sound more like they were taken from a Unitarian church website than Obama's Trinity UCC website. Check the Trinity site for yourself. I still think Obama is going to have to discuss some of the language on that site with the public sooner or later. It is unfamiliar and seems very strange to me and will to many, many Americans. I can take a ribbing. It's OK.

[usregimechange]

14. Nothing on Worldnetdaily is true, it is a waste of time to even check

[faithfulcitizen]

42. Thanks, I truly wasn't aware, and I'm sure my mother wasn't either.

[Why Syzygy]

Obama has already said he goes to the church.

It's not always a waste of time to find out how the other side is distorting *truth*. See my post below about the church. You can't assume everything they write is 100% false.

I just think hits on a reference are to general to be taken seriously. I'm more an investigative mind. That's why I like to know what they are about.

[ingac70]

15. Why give a shit...

Growing up here in Tennessee, I had to listen to how great Reagan was every Sunday. A lot of churches do that...

I doubt they excommunicate people for going to Wal-mart. Just a suggestion based on the company history of economic injustice.

Don't like his church? Then don't go there.

[madfloridian]

16. And hubby and I are about to start going to a Unitarian church

Are you gonna judge us also?

[usregimechange]

Good for you. UU would be my home if there was one within 75 miles

[krabigirl]

139. DH and I may go to one as well. We are atheists, but with our daughter ro

We want to expose her to all faiths, and explain what we think as well. UU allows non-believers in their church (at least our local chapter does), so it seems neat.

I don't have a problem with Obama's church, as long as he realizes that not everyone in this country is Christian.

[Tess99]

18. I wish they attack this historic black church

You'll see black folk out at the polls like you've never seen before. We wouldn't have survived if it weren't for our churches. An attack on Obama's church is an attack on our very survivial and spirit. I hope they go there.

[1corona4u]

36. If you had every black voter on the planet...

show up, and the whites were pissed off, you'd still not have enough votes to win. I suggest you think about that.

[faithfulcitizen]

46. I'd venture to say he'll take Illinois in any case.

[1corona4u]

65. No doubt about that.

[mac2]

70. I'm not sure about that...

he's been a disappointment to us in Illinois when he voted for Patriot Act II and some of Bush's Nazi agency heads.

[Adelante]

119. Obama and Patriot Act 2

Obama filibustered against Patriot Act 2 in Bush's 2005 version. He co-sponsored legislation to amend Patriot 1 against privacy intrusions, placed limits on surveillance and wiretapping and search warrants. Those changes were made to Patriot 2 in the final 2006 bill, HR3199. The final bill rescued libraries from the tyranny of national security letters, strengthened judicial review of national security letters, gag orders and FBI subpoenas, and strictly limited sneak-and-peak searches.

He still wasn't happy with it, and he said so, but he thought there was progress made on protecting civil liberties, while not cutting the legs entirely out from under law enforcement, and with 90% of the Senate in favor he voted for it, since it wasn't going to get any better that year.

I don't see why it would be such a disappointment, unless you are looking for absolute perfection on this. He fought a good fight and didn't get everything he wanted, but that's how legislating works. He still did good work on Patriot 2.

[mac2]

140. You can't compromise on democratic rights and freedoms

Patriot Act II should not have passed in Congress since it violates the Constitution which they (and Obama) swore to uphold above all else.

That's how our Police State Congress works you mean?

[Adelante]

147. So they should have left Patriot 1 in place?

[mac2]

170. Neither were acceptable in a democracy

The civil rights organizations and most Americans opposed it but they did it anyway. Who do they represent?

[mac2]

71. We need each other to vote for a candidate who represents

all of us not just one group. We can't win otherwise since one group has no voice.

[mac2]

63. Clergy in the Black churches are being bribed with

Faith Based Funds. They aren't the same Black churches of the past. Their clergy rich and many kissing the hands of the Neo Cons.

At one CSPAN Black conference, a well dressed and intelligent sounding woman got up and was angry at the Black fat clergy for living high on the hog. The Black moderator told her that was a subject for another day. I didn't think so and I bet neither did she.

Blacks would be better off meeting in public places to decide and fight for their survival and freedoms.

For example: Why weren't the Black members of Congress and clergy there for their people on that horrible Katrina genocide weekend? They were on break and even a national disaster won't bring them into session to make sure that city and Gulf area got shelter, water, and food? The whole world witnessed it and was shocked. No clergy screaming on TV for action either. It was so sad. Many Blacks felt betrayed. I felt they had a right since it was true.

"When an elected official of the people voice their religious views/stories/etc. in public, they exclude those who do not share the same
beliefs. They also violate their oath of office to represent all citizens." Me.

[RevCheesehead]

19. ROFLMAO!!

The UCC (United Church of Christ) is perhaps the most liberal of protestant denominations. :rofl:

Relax. Not every christian is a fundamentalist.

[madrchsod]

104. oh no---- the rev is in gd:p

i guess i`d better clean up my language...packers by 14?

[Lasher]

21. I have seen this in the form of a broadcast email.

Here is a writeup Snopes did on it:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp

And in the right wing email before that one he was supposed to be a closet Muslim. :eyes:

[faithfulcitizen]

28. I don't believe he's a muslim or that he believes everything his pastor believes, as he says.

[Lasher]

66. Obama has never been a Muslim

Go here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

[faithfulcitizen]

74. I KNOW. when did I say he was?

[Lasher]

93. You said, "I don't believe he's a muslim..."

You seemed unsure.

[faithfulcitizen]

99. No, I'm sure. And I never said he was. And no I'm not a freeper.

[Lasher]

101. Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, who called you a freeper?

Are we just a tad touchy?

[JDPriestly]

24. As you know, here is the "About Us" page from Obama's church

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

1. A congregation committed to ADORATION.
2. A congregation preaching SALVATION.
3. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
5. A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
6. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

As long as they don't discriminate, and I have been assured that they don't I am fine with his church. But, Obama needs to talk about why his church puts so much emphasis on Africa when most of the members, their parents and grandparents were probably born in America.

[Tess99]

38. Why is it wrong for African American churches

to emphasize African culture, but it's fine for Greek Orthodox churches to emphasize their culture. Why is it ok for Episcopalian chuches to hold on to its anglo roots, but wrong for Afican American churches?

Why is it that white ethnic groups are allowed to openly celebrate and hold on to traditions of the motherlands, but wrong for African Americans.

[Egnever]

47. meh beat me to it.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[M0rpheus]

76. I just said something similar in another thread... n/t

[mac2]

91. Who said it was?

Celebrate.

[JDPriestly]

158. It is not wrong. Obama needs to discuss it.

Otherwise it will distract from his campaign.

There are all these crazy e-mails about his name and his supposed Muslim background. Obviously, it takes about 2 seconds of research to realize that Obama was named after his father. (Or at least that is what my all to quick research shows.) If anyone mentions Obama's name to me, I will know how to answer. I would not know what to say about the Africa language on the Trinity UCC website. I am unfamiliar with the concept.

[provis99]

41. what's wrong with emphasizing Africa?

most of the members are black; how is this any different than Germans at a Lutheran church having services in Church German, or Irish celebrating St. Patrick's by gathering in their Catholic Church, or Russian-Americans celebrating Christmas in January at their Orthodox Church?

On edit: just noticed Tess99 posted nearly the same comment I was just posting. Have no idea who you are Tess99, despite the similarities of "99" and similar topic. Eerie sometimes on DU, isn't it?

[1corona4u]

57. Most of the members of Africa are black?

I didn't know Africa was a club? I thought it was a country.... You're mixing apples and oranges.

Again, if blacks want equal treatment, they need to do the same. Excluding white members from an all black church is racist. Period. I have clients in Cape Town, South Africa, and guess what? They're all white. Not all Africans are black.

I'd be willing to bet you, that on any given day, at any church across this country, a black person could walk right into ANY white church and be welcomed with open arms. Like I said though, you're mixing apples and oranges.

[M0rpheus]

78. Having attended services there, you are VERY WRONG.

Everyone is welcome, but it is a BLACK CHURCH in a BLACK NEIGBORHOOD.
If you walked in, you'd would be welcomed as well.

Read the site again.
Where does it say you are not welcome?

When does this stuff stop?

[1corona4u]

94. You tell me...

I went through their entire site on youtube, and I didn't see one white person, in any video;

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=TRINITYCHGO&page=1

[M0rpheus]

106. Oh lord! There was not one white person there?!?!

And?
I never said they were always there, as I am not. It's not my church. But I have attended many services there.
I can assure you you would be welcomed.

It's a church in the hood. A rather nice one, that makes no bones about what it is.
They are not separatists.

But my question is, what difference does it make?
It's a church with a mostly black congregation. There are many in this world. I can count at least 10 that I know of within a few miles of me. You'd never know the difference. And you were probably not even aware of it until Obama's church was called into question.
There is nothing wrong with being unapologetically black, and working to take care of your own through worship and otherwise, since history tells us that few others will do what we can do for ourselves.

It would seem that you are upset because "we can't do it". From this side of the fence, we've earned the right to choose our own company.

Y'know, this is the stuff that annoys me. I am black and I haven't even made up my mind who I'm voting for as of yet. But all this stuff just gets under my skin. The man is a Christian, and has the right to choose how he worships and who he worships with. You have that same right. I would have never even thought of this as an issue.

[Lasher]

90. And here I thought Africa was a continent.

I musta missed the part where all them countries merged into one.

[cali]

120. Ignorant.

African is most certainly NOT a country. It's a CONTINENT with many countries. Duh.

Your racism shines through in every ugly, stupid word you write.

[Adelante]

122. This is a lie

"Excluding white members from an all black church is racist."

White members are not excluded from that church no matter how many times you say it.

[kwassa]

127. This white person has attended all-black churches.

I, as a white person, HAVE attended several worship services in all-black churches, like First AME in Los Angeles. I have always been treated well.

Your argument is racist because it is prejudiced, which literally means to pre-judge. You in fact have no idea what the policies of this church are in regards to welcoming people of other races, but you make an essentially racist assumption based on photographs!

Yet at the same time you say "I'd be willing to bet you, that on any given day, at any church across this country, a black person could walk right into ANY white church and be welcomed with open arms"

and what do you base this bet on? Any facts, whatsoever?

[ieoeja]

163. Me too. South side of Chicago as a matter of fact.

Two small AME churches and one other really big Baptist church not far from Trinity.

And I agree. This was one of the most blatantly racist posts I have ever read at DU. What would possibly make someone assume white people are not welcome at churches in the black community?

[JDPriestly]

156. Language is one thing. Celbrating Christmas in January

has nothing to do with Russia. I did not realize that churches held on to their ties to the country of the ancestors of the members so long (presumably many generations for most members) after the founding of the church. This is something new to me. Do members of Lutheran Churches have to understand German? Do people have to be of German/African-American/Polish, whatever descent to join a church like that?

And don't tell me about Judaism. You can convert to Judaism. Many have. And Jewish people vary with regard to the extent of their beliefs about Israel.

[Egnever]

45. why do they need to talk about it?

"Obama needs to talk about why his church puts so much emphasis on Africa"

Why? If they were founded by african americans why wouldnt they? should they be focussed on palastinians instead? They are plenty focused on here in america.

I dont understand your comment.

[Tess99]

60. Wait until they see the pictures of Jesus in his black chuch

with his skin of burned brass and hair like wool. How dare they decided out of NOWHERE to not make Jesus blonde and blue eyed!!!! LOL

[M0rpheus]

110. Heaven forbid!!!

Someone's head might explode!
:rofl:

[usregimechange]

25. They will attack on all sorts of BS issues no matter who the candidate is

[faithfulcitizen]

50. I know, and I keep telling myself that. What I worry about is the narrative as a whole.

[FrenchieCat]

67. But if you didn't worry about Wes Clark who was converted Catholic,

but before that a Baptist, and currently goes to a Presbyterian Church, as though he couldn't decide, why worry about faith all of the sudden as an Election Issue? :shrug:

They'll go after anybody, remember?

[mac2]

96. The difference and concern is if...

a candidate publicly supports only his\her true religion and not others. They fail to represent all Americans.

Faith Based Funding is illegal and unconstitutional. Obama and Hillary support it. It is a "big black hole of religious cronyism" of billions gone forever for whatever. No one is accountable and just a few select religious groups are allowed to get public funding. It could even flow to international sources for uses we don't approve.

In a democracy citizens have a right to know where their money goes and for what use. Most people disapprove of religious funding because they don't trust clergy with it. History proves them right.

[Emillereid]

26. I have more problems with Hillary' prayer groups that are heavily

republican. http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/print_article.pl?url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

Here's a snippit: These days, Clinton has graduated from the political wives' group into what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. Though weighted Republican, the breakfast—regularly attended by about 40 members—is a bipartisan opportunity for politicians to burnish their reputations, giving Clinton the chance to profess her faith with men such as Brownback as well as the twin terrors of Oklahoma, James Inhofe and Tom Coburn, and, until recently, former Senator George Allen (R-Va.). Democrats in the group include Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far; Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular.

Unlikely partnerships have become a Clinton trademark. Some are symbolic, such as her support for a ban on flag burning with Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) and funding for research on the dangers of video games with Brownback and Santorum. But Clinton has also joined the gop on legislation that redefines social justice issues in terms of conservative morality, such as an anti-human-trafficking law that withheld funding from groups working on the sex trade if they didn't condemn prostitution in the proper terms. With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won't fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won't guard abortion clinics.

Clinton has championed federal funding of faith-based social services, which she embraced years before George W. Bush did; Marci Hamilton, author of God vs. the Gavel, says that the Clintons' approach to faith-based initiatives "set the stage for Bush." Clinton has also long supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a measure that has become a purity test for any candidate wishing to avoid war with the Christian right.

[mac2]

77. What Constitution may I ask them?

[Radical Activist]

27. Yes, Obama goes to a liberal church.

Its part of who he is and its one of the things I like about him.

[faithfulcitizen]

33. The liberal isn't the part that worries me.

[Egnever]

51. what part is?

[faithfulcitizen]

79. The part where a church or a pastor tells you how to vote politically (even if you agree)

or tell you where to shop or not shop, or hold seminars that help youth struggling with their "sexual orientation" and "mental health issues". Again, I don't think Obama necessarily agrees with everything his pastor says. But, the repubs will use this, and for many it may sell unfortunately.

[ingac70]

83. That would be...

the pot calling the kettle black if Repubs did such a thing. They've been using conservative churches since Reagan.

[mac2]

137. Not a good idea for either party

since it violates Separation of Church and State in the Constitution. Reagan didn't like the Constitution either.

[LanternWaste]

160. Darn. My pastor suggested...

Darn. My pastor suggested ("told" in your parlance) I see Sicko some months back. Good gracious-- I had no idea how out of line he was...

My SA minister suggested we don't shop at Wal-Mart do to it's social and worker abuses. How dare he!!!

[Egnever]

29. Seems cool to me

whats wrong with that stuff?

they are also raising $100,000 for victims of violence in Iraq. shrug I don't know I think most people take away what they want from church.

[Didereaux]

31. This is what bothers me about Obama and church...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/didereaux/

[mac2]

107. What was he thinking?

[madfloridian]

32. Why so judging of others' religion? Only God has that right.

Not you, not your mother.

You should not judge me, Obama, or Howard Dean or others who attend that very compassionate and caring church.

My Southern Baptists could not wait to bomb Iraq.

Do not judge others.

[faithfulcitizen]

37. what?

I'm talking about getting elected. The church looks like it may do some very good things. But, I don't like politics in my church, or politicians taking us all to church- regardless of party. Get it? It's not personal. I'm sure you're a very nice person, so please don't judge me for wanting to have an open discussion about the person I'm planning to vote for the next President of the United States (not my next preacher.

[madfloridian]

55. No, I am not very nice when people start questioning the religion of others.

I was raised Southern Baptist, my parents were pillars of the church. I left when they called me unpatriotic for not supporting the Iraq Wae.

I watched Baptists pushing this war, hating the gay community, working with Catholics to stop gay rights and to stop women from having contraception.

I am not very nice when people use religion to judge.

[FrenchieCat]

75. Most churches are political, whether they say so, or not....

Remember the Catholics saying that Kerry shouldn't be supported?

In Black communities, Black churches are the epicenter. It has always been that way.

I am the wife of a Minister at a Black Church. It is Barbara Lee's church. We register Voters, we feed the hungry, give out scholarships, and our pastor preaches and mentions the Iraq war in his sermons, and has mentioned Bush (he does this when he exigets the text). Politicians come to our church to speak to us often. Bono was there earlier this year for an AIDs forum.

The difference with Social Justice Churches and Megachurches is that with churches like Obama's and mine, when we give tithes, you can be sure it's going to help the community, not to make a sparkling cutting edge brochure advertising next weeks sermon and buying the pastor a new Rolls Royce.

Do you want Obama to attend a White Church? Will that make you feel better? :shrug:

[mac2]

81. You have followed the flock to destroy our democracy

and ignore our Constitution for whatever reason. Your church tax exempt status could be removed for preaching a political agenda or supporting a candidate...no matter how small or helpful you may think you are.

Helping the poor and your community and worshiping God is one thing...destroying democracy for your own religious agenda is another.

Politicans are disobeying our Constitution for votes by going to churches and speaking. You are all bad citizens. God has no candidate running for political office (contrary to what they think).

It is not democratic or good for us in the end.

[faithfulcitizen]

89. I liked what you had to say, until you dropped racist remarks. My church feeds the hungry too.

Oh yeah, and missions in Africa. :eyes:

[mac2]

126. Racist?

Sorry if you got that from my statement. I don't see it or didn't mean it.

Feeding the hungry is not racist that I know of. It is what churches have doing for many years. Their missionary work also. THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE TAX EXEMPT STATUS IN THE FIRST PLACE. It is not Constitutional and is a privilege which has been abused.

Churches and such can't handle all the complex problems of the needy (blind, mentally ill, disabled, homeless, old, sick, etc.). We learned that in the past. That's why government programs work best. They also are monitored with over sight, etc. Their staff college educated, accredited to do their job, etc. The incompetent workers removed for the good of all by the state, etc.

Problem is many Faith Based Funded churches are using public tax dollars (multi-billions since Bush) to build new building, schools, missionary work for their own agenda and power in the world,etc. They have grown so fat and powerful the politicians flock to their doors for votes. They try to influence government for their own self interest (not mine).

I don't approve of some of the religious groups and feel my money for the needy should be government, not private funded or religious groups, which can monitored and used where needed. It is for the needy not religious cronyism for votes.

Many church groups are complaining they can't handle or aren't prepared to handle all the homeless and needy in our society today. They are over whelmed. There are more on the streets without care then ever. Faith Based Charity is a big lie and a failure.

Many religious groups have complained about government interference because of these FBF programs. Religious freedom is compromised.

[faithfulcitizen]

128. My reply was not to you.

[mac2]

133. OK

[krabigirl]

141. Just as long as a leader realize that not everyone is Christian.

I dislike that about all the candidates, BTW. In many European countries, leaders don't discuss religion. I only wish it could be that way here someday.

[CyberPieHole]

159. Yeah...only bible thumpers are allowed to judge...

McClurkin and Obama are perfect examples of hateful bigotry against LGBTQ people. Obama and his bevy of bigots don't want to be "judged" but they have no problem ostracizing others. Religious hypocrites. Who knew?:eyes:

[CoffeeCat]

34. I can reassure you that Obama is electable....

Ok, if you want to talk mechanics, look at Obama's support. Disenfranchises Republicans like him. Independents like him. Many Democrats like him. There you have it...the election in the bag. There's no way that Hillary could count on the Independents or any Republicans.

I'm in Iowa and I saw up-close-and-personal Obama's ability to appeal across party lines. The woman who invited
me to an Obama house party (before I threw my support to Obama) voted for Bush twice and is has left the
Republican party. My husband is a centrist and he supported Obama. I know many Independents who love Obama. I
was a precinct captain for Obama in our caucuses. I would say that 30 percent of the caucus participants, who
supported Obama, were Republicans who re-registered as Dems that night or Independents who registered as Dems
so they could caucus for Obama.

Furthermore, Obama fueled unprecedented participation in the Iowa caucuses. Dem participation increased
100 percent, from the previous 04 caucus. That's extraordinary! Republican participation in the caucuses
did not increase from 04. Obama can catalyze unprecedented turnout.

Obama has stellar experience and great ideas. He is a Constitutional Scholar. He taught Constitutional Law
in Chicago for nearly a decade. One of his goals is to restore Habeas Corpus. He also will close guantanamo.
Obama is concerned about what has happened to our Constitution and our civil rights--and he will roll back
the Bush damage, not enjoy the Unitary Executive playground bush built for his own personal pleasure.

I like that Obama's healthcare plan deals with costs. His plan cuts costs. He doesn't just mandate
that people buy health insurance. He makes it affordable for those who are lower income. I don't understand
plans that only mandate. I mean, candidates can mandate that Americans drive Cadillacs, that doesn't mean
that they'll have the means to purchase one.

And yes, I like that he's an inspirational and intelligent man. It's about time we had a dignified,
likable and diplomatic.

[madfloridian]

35. My country is now judging others by their religion. How very sad.

The right wing has succeeded admirably haven't they?

They preach hate and bigotry in right wing churches. Hatred for gays, hate for Islam, no rights for women.

How dare you judge him by his religion?????????

[mac2]

39. It is illegal for any tax exempt religious organization

to tell you who to vote for. They lose their tax exemption via the IRS laws.

-Send a copy of the web site to the IRS and demand they not tell anyone who to vote for if they are to be a tax exempt religious organization in America.

-Contact the Americans for Separation of Church and State organization asking this group stop their political manipulation since it is also unconstitutional. Religious organizations who want to control our government agenda can be pretty dangerous to our religious (or our right for no religion) freedoms.

It is also undemocratic and these clergy are not being good citizens. They live in a country which has allowed them to practice their religion freely without tyranny. Many have prospered under this democratic principle.

[tishaLA]

40. Many Catholics differ strongly with their church

about things as basic as reproductive rights, the war, and papal infallibility. I have been known to differ with my synagogue on many occasions. I presume that Sen Obama does not embrace everything his church says. And even if he did, I'm not sure I see anything particularly scandalous. Talking to teens about sexual identity and gender identification?! The horrors!

[mac2]

44. Believing something is one thing..

forcing your religious beliefs and political agenda is just wrong...and illegal in our country.

[faithfulcitizen]

72. I totally agree with your point, but I read sexual orientation seminar differently I guess.

I personally have never seen a (Christian) church get into the topic of "sexual orientation" and "mental health issues" and say "God loves you just as you are, don't change." Maybe this church does.

[ingac70]

80. Unitarian churches do. n/t.

[1corona4u]

43. Faithful,

I think the problem with it is, that it's an all black church. It specifically says that. They make no bones about it. We've had this discussion a million times. I don't care what church someone goes to. But the problem with it is, the double standard bullshit. If us whites had an 'all white church', and a black person wanted to attend, and we said; sorry, only whites allowed; we would be racist, and Jackson and Sharpton would be there before the door closed. That's the problem.

[M0rpheus]

95. Literally, right before I came to this thread I wrote this in another...

There's nothing new about attempting to uplift your own community.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, especially if that is the first thing people see and condemn you for.

He is a Christian BLACK MAN, who attends a BLACK CHURCH. A church which happens to have a commitment to it's congregation.
Right there on the corner of 95th and eggleston on the edge of the hood and a middle class neighborhood, someone is trying to make something better. No where does it say you aren't welcome. As a matter of fact, you might find it much better than your assumptions.

Would you complain about a Jew who attended Synagog? Or a Greek Orthodox who attended services in a Greek Orthodox church?
A Muslim who goes to Mosque?
There's no bigotry here. Just a bunch of people trying to be connected to God, and not ashamed of it.

We can be our own people. We are entitled to our own experiences with God, and otherwise. Nothing at all to be ashamed of.

This whole "white church" thing is just infuriating. The "double standard bullshit" is just that... bullshit.
Nothing on the Churches site says you can't go. It says:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent."

You can go there, (really, you can!) many have.
But, like going to Jewish services, you have to realize that they do not have to cater to you. Somehow, I don't think you'd have the same problem if he was Jewish.

Your being there would change nothing about the service.
You'd still be welcomed, and the world would go on.

Maybe you should come to the hood and, check it out.

[1corona4u]

97. Again,

go through their videos and tell me how many whites you see;

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=TRINITYCHGO&page=1

By the way, I'm not religious at all.

[M0rpheus]

108. I replied to your previous post.

But again... And?

In addtion:
Where's the outrage coming from?
He's not even my candidate (yet?) and, of all the things you can attack him for, you choose this?

[1corona4u]

109. It's one of many issues I have with him...

and it would take me a while to spell it all out. I'm really tired, but perhaps I'll post back to you tomorrow.

[M0rpheus]

112. I'll await your reply...

I'll offer this before I turn in myself.
You may have tons of issues with Obama as a political entity. That's fine.
Those issues may be perfectly valid and I might even agree with you.
(Again, I haven't made up my mind who I'll be voting for yet.)
The issue of where he goes to church... Not first and foremost in my mind.
But you, you talk as if he was going to the church of Obsidian Lucifer the White Baby-Eater. It's not that damned serious, Jeez!

I don't know how it is where you come from, but black churches are EVERYWHERE.
They don't discriminate and you would be welcomed if you chose to come.

There is no double standard in his choice of church. It is HIS CHOICE.

Now on to my issues with some of the other things you've said in this thread:

Again, if blacks want equal treatment, they need to do the same. Excluding white members from an all black church is racist Period.

I'll make the point again, no one is excluded. You said in another post to call them, allow me to give you the number (because, you haven't called them yet, have you?) [phone]. Now, if you're honest, you'll make that call and hear what they have to say. Ask a couple of questions. You might even get answers.

And about the equal treatment... You make it sound as if we are begging for your damned table scraps. If the condition for equal treatment is reciprocation then we win hands down. We've been screwed 6 ways to Sunday, and you still want us to let you in, to every... single... thing we want to call ours. And yet, we still do...
There is no bigotry in having a preference. It's how you express your preference. If you go to the church and they say, "sorry white lady, blacks only in here", then you can scream from the rooftops. Until then, you can echo the idiot talking points all day long, blissfully ignorant of the facts.

I have clients in Cape Town, South Africa, and guess what? They're all white. Not all Africans are black.

You should get the facts straight. History repeats itself again, and again....

Yup, not all current Africans are black.
http://www.safrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/demographics/population.htm

White, 'Coloured', Asian South Africans
South Africa's white population descends largely from the colonial immigrants of the late 17th, 18th and 19th centuries - Dutch, German, French Huguenot and British. Linguistically it is divided into Afrikaans- and English-speaking groups, although many small communities that have immigrated over the last century retain the use of other languages.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that those white people are native to the country.
More of the same. They came, they saw, they conquered. Rinse, repeat.

They are there or their ancestors got there, BY CHOICE. We had none. I am here because someone needed some work done 300 years ago that they didn't want to do themselves.

I suppose I can't fault you for not knowing anything about it. It really has no bearing on your being and who you are. It's all business for you.

An additional link for your continuing education on South Africa: http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/history/history.htm


This thread has made me tired. I'll be waiting for your reply, later on today.

Damn those windmills!!!
:banghead:
Why doesn't this place have a Don Quixote emote?!?!?!

[cali]

124. Take a video camera into 95% of the churches in Vermont

The congregations are ALL white. Shocking isn't it?

[tammywammy]

164. I'd be more convinced if you had a video of them turning white people away

[ursi]

52. oh good grief!

[Why Syzygy]

61. Let me help you out ..

I got an email from a friend who is libertarian raising questions about Obama's allegiance. I wanted to ask DUer's, but didn't want to be accused of something. I knew WorldNetDaily would get the ax. It's RW, but sometimes we do need to know what the wing nuts are writing about. As long as someone isn't pushing the same agenda, give up the paranoia.

I don't see any cause for alarm. The social programs you mention are going to be common in many modern churches as they have become more more than a "house of worship".

Their Mission Statement doesn't emphasize *loyalty* for Africa above all else or even the United States, as implied by the email I received. It DOES indicate a special calling to reach out to the people of Africa, not the political climate, and heal them to the best of their ability. This sentiment is shared with the entire world but focused on their *homeland*.

http://tucc.org/mission.htm
Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

Interesting that Oprah is a member too. She has a foundation for the benefit of the African people and recently,
http://www.oprah.com/presents/2003/christmaskindness/pres_2003_ck_main.jhtml">"Christmas Kindness" . I dare anyone to watch the entire show and not shed tears. AIDS is devastating children's lives in Africa and it isn't getting better. They feel this is their calling on the planet and I don't have a problem with it at all.

With all the legitimate concerns we have about losing our country, some people just get uber paranoid.

[codeindigo]

135. email from where?

?

[Why Syzygy]

167. A friend ..

who is Libertarian ... reading comprehension .. go further in life.

[codeindigo]

169. what the hell does that mean?

do they know where it really came from?

[Why Syzygy]

171. I didn't ask him.

I'm on his mailing list and get lots of things I don't necessarily agree with. I don't really want to have discussions with him. It isn't a typical "fwd", although I can tell he didn't write it himself.

Since you're so interested, I'll post it here with the understanding I think it it bogus, as I have stated throughout this thread.

OBAMA'S CHURCH
Subject: TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST

During this campaign for the Presidency, It's interesting that so much has been made of Mitt Romney's Mormon religion, while we hear so little of Barack Obama's, outside of the denials of his being Muslim. However, if you look more closely at Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's church, it sounds more like a racist cult than anything else, with a commitment, not to America, but to Africa. Scary, when you consider this man could be the President of this United States.

Obama mentioned his church during his appearance with Oprah. It's the Trinity Church of Christ. I found this interesting.

Obama's church: Please read and go to this church's web site and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their web site, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned.

Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K!!!

Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing.

This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa!

I cannot believe this has not been all over the TV and newspapers. This is why it is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary.

Click on the link below:
This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to: www.tucc.org/about.htm

edit: Someone posted the snopes article about this. Maybe they know where it came from?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/church.asp

A second read of that article seems to trace the concept to Sean Hannity.

[terisan]

64. I liked the Rev Farrakhan interview. Farrakhan is a very much misundertood leader. nt

[mac2]

84. Farrakhan was the only leader to tell the truth about 911

I respect him for that alone.

Personally I don't care what anyone's personal beliefs are as long as they don't force them on me or my country's freedoms. It shouldn't be part of the discussion in politics. If we did we wouldn't get any government business done. It would go on and on....

[Justitia]

68. Sounds like the Catholic Church I attended at Christmas - they even have a Social Justice Ministry.

They are probably closet Liberation Theologists - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[mac2]

85. And get Faith Based Funds?

[Why Syzygy]

86. Pat Robertson gets tons of faith based money.

I would rather this church have it but nothing indicates they do.

[Justitia]

88. Who? I'm sure not the Catholic Church, probably not the other, either. -eom

[mac2]

100. The Catholic chruch and Pat Robertson get a lot of

Faith Based funding. Check with Americans for Separation of Church and State. They have the data.

[Occam Bandage]

87. Thank you for your concern.

[faithfulcitizen]

98. you're welcome. I care about my country.

[moriah]

102. "All black churches" are generally that way because ...

.... white people generally go to other churches, not because historically Black churches exclude whites. At least, here in the South that's the way it is.

[faithfulcitizen]

103. Okay, obviously, this wasn't the night to have this discussion. Emotions are high.

To all who responded with sincerity, thank you. I just wanted to have an open discussion about a topic I care about. I truly admire Obama and hope he wins the nomination, but am concerned about the GE. I hope all of you who believe he won't have any trouble winning are right. Your confidence inspires. Good night.

[chascarrillo]

114. Thank you for your concern

[madrchsod]

105. oh nooooooooo!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl: world nut daily!

[regnaD kciN]

111. OHMIGOD!!! HE ATTENDS A LIBERAL CHURCH!!!!!

Everyone vote for Hillary to protect our country from such a threat!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[musicblind]

115. To the person who thinks "All Black Churches" are racist?

Look, I'm white, and go to a church that just HAPPENS to have a load of white people in it. That does not mean our church is racist and wouldn't be thrilled if a black person wanted to join. Black churches are the same way. I have a professor who is very heavily involved in civil rights issues and cares deeply about the plight of black people across our nation. She is white, but she attends an all black church. They welcome her, they are nice to her, she tells me all of the time how much she loves their music. I had became an independent undergraduate research assitant with her, and she made a film about interracial marriage and used music from the church. The choir was more THRILLED to make the music for that film, and was nice to everyone involved be they black or white. Dr. Edwards is one of the nicest people I know, but she would have certainly let me know if they had not been welcoming to her.

Another example, when I was in high school I was friends with this boy named John. I thought John was so wonderful and we pretty much dated. John was very interested in civil rights (he was gay and closeted at the time which may have contributed to how much he identified with black causes). Therefore, John joined the all black club at the high school called New Horizons. They had NO PROBLEM AT ALL with him joining. Yes, the year book photo looks funny. He's this one white dot in a sea of black faces. But he's smiling, and everyone else is smiling and they were just happy to have one more person at the meetings who wanted to help make their ideas for the community a reality. Yes the club had only black people in it before John joined. It doesn't mean whites were not allowed! A lot of whites may have felt uncomfortable joining and not tried because they were AFRAID they wouldn't be allowed, but that is the fault of the people who let their discomfort keep them from participating.

I am sure that Obama's church would be just fine allowing white people to come and celebrate African culture with them. They would probably be excited to see someone like that show such an interest in a culture that was different than the one that person grew up in. They would love to share their experiences, tell their stories, and spread their beliefs to an outsider. I know I would.

I'm not going to pretend that there are not racist black people. There are. When I was at the North Carolina School of the Arts my best friend at the time was black. One year, over the summer, my family and I went on a cruise and wanted to take that friend with us. He was excited and wanted to go, I was excited about it to, however is parents weren't. They did not want him hanging out with a white kid and going with a white family on a cruise. Eventually he was allowed to go, but it was disenchanting. So yes, SOME black people are racist just like some white people, but to say it is racist to have a church that consists mostly of blacks and celebrates African culture is not 100% accurate at all.

:)

[BootinUp]

116. I also do not approve of overt political cheerleading by Churches

Can't we make descisions for our society without listening to a minister or a pastor taking political positions? There is plenty of life lessons in the bible for him to focus on.

[faithfulcitizen]

129. Thank you, This is my point. Many here need to stop cheerleading for 10 seconds and think.

It really has gotten so crazy here.

[kwassa]

134. Think about what?

What point have you made here?

The point I see is that people should research their information, which you failed to do.

[krabigirl]

142. I agree with that.

[redqueen]

143. They're suggestions, not rules. They're not going to go through your bank history

and find out if you're going along with the suggestions.

IMO it's long past time that non-right-wing churches started doing this type of thing to counterbalance the dobson / fallwell effect.

[BootinUp]

144. Where did I mention rules? I just think its a slippery slope

but I recognize there are going to be differences of opinion.

[redqueen]

146. Well, when you said...

"Can't we make descisions for our society without listening to a minister or a pastor taking political positions?"

I thought you were figuring that people were just following along like automatons.

Of course everyone is free to make decisions on their own if they care to... and any organization is free to make suggestions that they think go along with their goals. :)

[indimuse]

117. rezko as well..

:eyes: or did...

[goodhue]

118. You're concerned about a United Church of Christ?!

That is just silly

[LostinVA]

121. WORLDNET -- OMG, you are so fucking OBVIOUS

Leave.

[faithfulcitizen]

131. You leave. I tell you what, by Feb. 5th you all are going to have heart trouble. sheesh.

[geek tragedy]

125. Go back to Free Republic, you Pug punk. b/t

[faithfulcitizen]

130. oh, that's sweet.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

149. No, that's the bitter truth. (I can believe I'm siding with geek tragedy on something!) -nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

132. YAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHH!

Calm now.

[LanternWaste]

148. By-law or mere description...

An "All Black Church". Is that a description of the congregation or a firm by-law of that church.

When I lived in Mexico, I regularly attended all-Hispanic churches. In stating that, am I being racist, or am I simply describing the dominant ethnicity of the congregation?

I used to watch The Cosby Show. In describing it as an all black family comedy, am I reiterating a racist contractual clause, or am I simply describing the predominant ethnic makeup of the cast?


Insults are one the most easiest things to find-- if you look hard enough, you can find them in places where they don't even exist.

[here_is_to_hope]

150. His 'cult' or his church? n/t

[smoogatz]

151. I'm very concerned about Obama's

lack of flag lapel pins
failure to put his hand over his heart
lack of First Lady experience
scary middle name
Islamicness
blackness (!)

because, you know, these things will prevent racist morons from voting for him. And we need that racist moron vote, otherwise it's eight freakin' years of President Huckleberry! This church business is the final nail in the coffin, as far as I'm concerned. You're telling me he's a damn Muslim AND a member of a damn liberal church? WTFF? I'm going to vote for, uh, lessee—Edwards! On accounta he's a white boy.

Jeebus Crispies. Please make it stop.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

152. I could be wrong, but I believe the UCC had an "ad" on tv a couple of years ago

welcoming everyone into the church, and it was fully implied that gays were welcome. One of the couples depicted was a same sex couple. As a matter of fact, it may have been around the last election, when things were particularly nasty.

Does anyone remember that or am I thinking of the wrong church?

[LanternWaste]

157. Oddly enough, I remember that too.

Oddly enough, I remember that too. If I recall correctly, it was a UCC church advertisement and was pulled after only a few showings due to its "controversial" sub-text.

[bullwinkle428]

162. It was DEFINITELY the UCC! Which brings me to

my biggest "concern" regarding Obama and his church; why does he cite his religion when stating his personal belief of marriage being between a man and woman only, while his church explicity states otherwise?

[bullwinkle428]

165. I found the ad on the official church website -

http://www.ucc.org/god-is-still-speaking/

[CyberPieHole]

161. I knew you'd get flamed...

this issue is not really open to discussion. Just bringing it up opens you to all sorts of hateful replies.

:kick: and recommend for the religious hypocrisy of Donnie McClurkin and to all those who tell you "don't judge us, only God can judge" and then turn around and judge you anyway.

[yardwork]

166. Gosh, this post makes me like Obama more.

I think that his church is doing what all churches do - encouraging their congregation to put their religious beliefs into day-to-day action.

Unlike the conservative mega-churches, though, Obama's church isn't attempting to change the U.S. Constitution to match their beliefs.

[femrap]

168. Obama's supporters are

starting to appear as if they are drinking the kool-aid.