Want to win in November best to nominate Kucinich

[WI_DEM]

Electability is everything were told and while DK is overshadowed by Kerry and Edwards I'm convinced if Democrats want to truly win in November they would be better off nominating Dennis Kucinich.

Why?
1) Those 2.8 million Nader votes won't go in droves to Edwards and especially Kerry, but a huge number of them will support DK.

2) Trade is fast becoming a key issue for Democrats--Kerry not Edwards really have credibility on this issue, but DK does. This issue will be crucial in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia.

3) You can talk about electability all you want--but the nation at large knows very little about DK--the media (as usual) is trying to decide who the candidates are and have given Kucinich very little coverage. Once DK is the nominee the American people will be introduced to a candidate who stands up for them and not the powerful special interests.

4) Kucinich has proven he can win in a district with lots of blue collar "Reagan democrats" which are a crucial voting bloc in every election.

5) Some may feel that the war doesn't matter, but it will. I know many anti-war Dems who will either sit out the election if it is Bush vs. a pro-war Democrat--either that or vote third party. DK will keep them in the fold.

Keep hope alive. Vote for Dennis Kucinich.

[redqueen]

1. I agree completely, of course

Winning back the "Reagan Democrats" is key.

[sangha]

2. Stop telling me to "Get in Line!"

:-)

[TruthWins]

35. Get In Line

[Dookus]

3. Yes...

his 3% in the national polls is about to explode!

on edit: Look... I'm actually quite fond of DK. I wouldn't vote for him because of some fundamental disagreements, but I think he's well-meaning and inspirational. But there's no way he could beat Bush in a single state, much less nationwide.

[Taeger]

8. fundamental disagreements

My only disagreemants with Dennis

1) Gay Marriage - Dennis supports it. This makes him unelectable in a national race. I RESPECT his integrity on this issue (even though I disagree). But this stance will force out swing voters.

BTW, for those of you counting where we will lose votes to, I have a simple math lesson. Nader cannot win. One vote cast for Nader is like a Democrat who simply didn't make it to the poll. You lose ONE vote. That person WOULD NOT have voted Republican.

Bush obviously CAN win. A vote for Bush is one that is NOT cast for you and cast FOR your opponent. You are down TWO votes because you GAINED one and Bush LOST one.


2) New Age psuedo-religious nonsense. Yeah, all those "desert sessions" with Shirly McCleane would get him in a LOT of trouble. Those new-age folks out in California do a lot of WEIRD SHIT like astrology and rubbing crystals on their body.

The correct solution to religious rebellion ISN'T making up even MORE phony-baloney that flies in the face of science. At least traditional religions can largely coexist peacefully. All that "new-age" stuff is like Christian Science without Christ*.


* I'm an follower of the Penn & Teller world view .... "BULLSHIT!!!!" ;-)

[Mairead]

23. I think that if you look at the "new age pseudo-religious nonsense" you'll

find quite a lot of sub-atomic physics in it. Different words, same underlying concepts.

[stevebreeze]

26. of course the media gave DK a lot of credit for his 30% in HI

NOT!this is not about how popular DK ideas are it is he scares the shit of out the corporate media. That's just fine with me.
:kick;

[MaggieSwanson]

48. Kickity kick n/t

[exotrip]

4. sorry but

People don't want a socialist and a protectionist to be our president. We want our economy to grow, not self-destruct.

[WI_DEM]

6. I guess the working class people who voted for Reagan

who live in his district would disagree with your assessment of DK. He is a true Democrat who stood up to Bush when some of the others were afraid of Bush's assumed popularity.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

7. That's cute

Let's let the economy grow while shipping all of our jobs overseas. Sounds like a plan.

[corporatewhore]

13. So DKs a commie now?wrong the left and the right dont like naftatexas gop

even has an anti nafta/wto plank in their platform neither do they like the patriot act

[cyclezealot]

43. Equally sorry.

We have so called 'free trade.' Is that not why Edwards,Kerry try to ape Kucinich. Sorry, their answers are either lies or ignorance. WTO can't be reformed.
Kerry, Edwards yap about jobs going overseas. Slave labor will always compete against a measly tax breaks Kerry thinks is the answer.
The reason the Democrats think they have a chance to win.
The economy is in the self-destruct mode. Three million jobs lost.
Ever been to Akron, Oh, Muskegon, Mi, Flint, Mi., Textile Country.
You think a country can live without an industrial base, you are living in a dream world.
Now, we do not even make enough computer chips to support our defense industry. They come from Red China.!

[Taeger]

5. Sorry but ...

I support Dennis Kucinich. I think he is the soul of the Democratic party. But THIS year is NOT his year.

I am sending Dennis money so he keeps pounding away on the Free Trade issue. He's one of a few politicians in Washington who has the guts to oppose the free traders 100%. Even Edwards is waffling out on NAFTA now and getting into the "revise NAFTA" quagmire.

I had planned to go assist the Edwards folks in Illinois. After I heard him waffle on NAFTA, I've decided not to. Kerry was right, their policies on NAFTA aren't all that different.

Beyond that, the President cannot withdraw from treaties WITHOUT congressional support. Yeah, I know Bush walked out of the ABM treaty unilaterally. But Congress COULD have stopped him if they wanted to. They DIDN'T want to.

The president CAN enforce those "side deals" and interpret the NAFTA rules in the way most beneficial to American workers. Congress is in the hands of the free-traders. Until we get anti-NAFTA/WTO majorities in BOTH houses, we won't be able to withdraw even WITH presidential support.

Kerry has the military experience that will make him the obviously better candidate. At this point, the Kerry/Edwards ticket is probably the PLAUSIBLE option.


BTW, I would love to see Dennis as President. He is Harry Truman reborn (my FAVORITE president). It's just NOT his year. Plus, he needs to find a good women to settle down with. A bachelor is virtually unelectable in a presidential race. I hope to see him do more good work in Congress in coming years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Harry Truman Was A Hawk... He Dropped The Big One On Japan...

Dennis Kucinich is a pacifist...

[Taeger]

11. Harry Truman did what was necessary!!!!!

My only beef was they should have picked a low population / high impact site for the first "demonstration". The fact is that fire-bombing Tokyo killed JUST as many if not more. The bigest difference is they used ONE bomb instead of thousands.

BTW, after the two bombs were dropped, Truman gave explicit orders to NOT drop any more A-bombs unless they had presidential approval.

It's a great tragedy that such wars are started. But once THEY ARE started, you need to fight them with passion and resolve for the sake of preserving your way of life.

[diamondsoul]

17. "But Congress COULD have stopped him..."

That doesn't matter anymore since Kucinich filed a lawsuit and established legal precident for unilateral withdrawal without Congressional approval. According to that ruling Congress can't stop him.

Thank you for helping.

[revcarol]

20. Those side agreements CAN'T BE ENFORCED, no matter who is President.

Made deliberately weak, so it would pass Republican muster.

FOR EXAMPLE:Over by El Paso, children on the Mexican side were dying from the pollution of maquiladoras, while on the American side, we wanted the pollution of the maquiladoras stopped because the Rio Grande was a source of drinking water for the U. S. on down the river.

The "environment" commission with reps from both countries met, got the scientific information of exactly which maquiladoras were releasing exactly which toxic waste, adjourned to meet again in one month.

Mexico couldn't do anything because they were under NAFTA and no enforcement teeth, and the U.S. couldn't do anything because they were in Mexico.

Nice try, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I'll Make You A Deal ....If He Wins The Ohio Primary I'll Support Him For

Pres....


Don't you think carrying your own state in a primary of your own party is a key test of electability?

[Mairead]

24. "a key test of electability"

First you have to level the field in terms of press coverage. Otherwise it's like demanding that someone win a race while shackled.

Given the relentless 'vanishing' by Media Inc (I mean, c'mon -- they report first and third and ignore his second? How much more blatant does it have to get?), I think even a solid third would be fine.

[genius]

12. Agreed. I'm voting for DK

He'll landslide over Bush in November.

[goodhue]

14. agree wholeheartedly

I've repeated point number one over and over here and elsewhere since last July. But few will listen. Now many protest the Nader candidacy while continuing to ignore the best way to counter Nader.

[snoochie]

15. I think so too

I think Kucinich is right, that the war will become more of an issue as time goes on.

[no name no slogan]

16. Not only the war, but the upcoming draft

I don't even see Kerry or Edwards addressing this issue. It's completely off their radar.

There's already a bill in the House to reintruduce the draft early next year. Since Shrub (and Kerry and Edwards) want a long-term US troop committment in Iraq, there's no way in hell we'll be able to fulfill it with an all-volunteer force.

Re-enlistment rates are plummeting, as are recruitment rates. The only way to maintain or military presence (PLUS another 40,000 like Kerry wants) is a DRAFT.

If you don't want a draft next year, support Kucinich.

[redqueen]

42. Hillary Clinton has started hinting about a draft, as well

We'll be in more wars for empire unless we elect KUCINICH.

[hippywife]

19. Especially since Greenspan dropped his little bomb yesterday.

People are finally seeing what Kucinich has been saying all along...it is the economy but the plummeting economy is being weighed down even further by the cost of the war and occupation.

[revcarol]

18. You're right about the Greens/independents.

Here so many Greens/independents were re-registering as Democrats that county clerks were overwhelmed some days.WHY did they re-register: TO VOTE FOR DENNIS IN THE PRIMARY.

Hey, they don't even have to go through the trouble of re-registering for the GE.

DK is the only one who says repeal it and 2) they have kids they want to send to college someday. DK has the most workable plan. But that's for the GE.]

[littlejoe]

21. Not hardly!

[revcarol]

22. Thanks for keeping the thread bumped.

We appreciate it.:dem:

[scarletwoman]

25. I'll do my part!

:kick:

[Point_n_click]

27. We might as well vote for Bush ...

Follow this thought ...

Quote -
5) Some may feel that the war doesn't matter, but it will. I know many anti-war Dems who will either sit out the election if it is Bush vs. a pro-war Democrat--either that or vote third party. DK will keep them in the fold.
End Quote -

It's this attitude and action of sitting out elections because we didn't get "our" candidate that has gotten us into the mess this nation is in right now.

Stop being part of the problem and start helping the rest of us try and solve the problem. I don't like certain candidates we have running, but I'll be damned if I'll sit it out and just hand it to Bush again.

[revcarol]

28. Gotta face it. For some it's a litmus test.

They don't take pre-emptive invasions that kill thousands of Iraqis and our troops lightly.And they do not like the whole budget decimated because we gotta keep on doing war.

But the poster DID NOT say s/he was one of them.

[Point_n_click]

29. True.

The poster did not claim to be one of those who would sit out, but I feel certain that may have been the message based on the subject line of the thread.

Frankly I've lost my patience with those types of people and have reached the point where I copnsider them to be far worse for the country than those they help by not acting.

I'm really quite pissed about that kind of attitude comeing from those that should know better.

I'm now too angry to read anything else. I'm going to bed and might just stop coming to DU period since I'm seeing more of this every day.

I'll still vote anyone other than Bush, but I'm just about out of hope thanks to threads like this one.

When are these people going to wake up and realize that it's just as important to vote the lesser evil as it is to strive to bring the greater good to the fore?

The more often you sit back and let the greater evil gain ground the more difficult and less likely a greater good candidate will even get the slightest chance.

[revcarol]

30. Why should we just give up

when a fine candidate is still in the race, a candidate who attracts new voters, Greens, independents and Republicans to him?

WE ARE ACTING, and THE FAT LADY HASN'T SUNG YET. (2,161 VOTES NEEDED FOR NOMINATION.)

[liberty rising]

31. Exactly. Kucinich can beat Bush.

He's miles ahead on the pack on just about everything. Kucinich is the only candidate with the integrity, intelligence and experience to turn this ship around.

KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT.

[bowens43]

34. Only the 'far left' would vote Kucinich.

Moderate Dems and independents would flock to bush in droves if DK was the nominee.

[rucky]

37. That's fear talking

what in his platform is radical? And don't tell me Dept of Peace, because Wes Clark entertained the same idea.

[tinanator]

51. not a chance

I think what you are referencing are those voters who subscribe to redmania conventions, and that does not include a very large percent of Republican/Bush voters. These people, who were not properly indoctrinated to hate people and to despise thought and reason if it threatened the prevailing ideological illusion, are more than willing to vote Kucinich. In a heartbeat. I cant believe you havent met any Kucinich backing former Republicans yourself already?

[dpbrown]

32. I agree, read my analysis of Kucinich electability here

http://www.imwithdennis.com/article312.html

It's also linked from the Kucinich national website.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[bowens43]

33. I disagree.

1) Those 2.8 million Nader votes won't go in droves to Edwards and especially Kerry, but a huge number of them will support DK.


Who says that Nader will have 2.8 million voters this time around. I kind of doubt it.

2) Trade is fast becoming a key issue for Democrats--Kerry not Edwards really have credibility on this issue, but DK does. This issue will be crucial in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia.

How does he have credibility? He can't snap his fingers and make nafta go away.

3) You can talk about electability all you want--but the nation at large knows very little about DK--the media (as usual) is trying to decide who the candidates are and have given Kucinich very little coverage. Once DK is the nominee the American people will be introduced to a candidate who stands up for them and not the powerful special interests.

Dennis wouldn't beat bush. If you put the two of them together on a stage, bush will look presidential. Unfortunately , a LARGE percentage of the electorate place a higher value on perception then substance. Before TV , Kucinich may have had a chance.

4) Kucinich has proven he can win in a district with lots of blue collar "Reagan democrats" which are a crucial voting bloc in every election.

Kucinich has proven that he can win in one small area of his home state.

5) Some may feel that the war doesn't matter, but it will. I know many anti-war Dems who will either sit out the election if it is Bush vs. a pro-war Democrat--either that or vote third party. DK will keep them in the fold.

The voters have shown us that opposition to the war is not a requirement for votes. The anti-war candidates have consistently LOST in the primaries (except for Clark in Oklahoma). The number of independent voters lost if DK is the nominee will far exceed the number of dems who will sit home if Kerry or edwards is the nominee.

[WI_DEM]

39. those 2.8 million Nader voters in 2000

will be more apt to support DK than Kerry or Edwards. One small part of his state--maybe but it is a diverse part and proves that Dennis can connect with a key voting bloc--Reagan dems and ethnic catholics.

Nice to know you think Bush looks presidential, I think he looks like a chimp with a smirk. I think Dennis has passion and meaning--much more presidential than the chimp.

He has credibility on the issue of NAFTA which Edwards and Kerry are now saying they would tinker with and improve--DK has always opposed it.

In a general election the anti-war vote will be critical--if it doesn't turn out in sufficient enough numbers for Kerry--he is toast.

[Tinoire]

36. The establishment wants to protect corporations more than the people

You're absolutely right. Even the freepers are liking Kucinich over NAFTA & healthcare but noooo, the panderers have decided to make him unelectable because corporate theft would be slowed & the corporate media can't support that.

I'm voting for Kucinich & no one else. The establishment and its empty slogan lip-service can KMA.

From the freepers:

Kucinich wants "OUT of the WTO now!" - sounds like he could win some freeper votes on that one! :)

108 posted on 02/26/2004 7:08:19 PM PST by summer
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies | Report Abuse >

===

To: Cboldt
Kucinich: "What this is all about is corporations seeking cheap labor." Re Mexican immigration.

118 posted on 02/26/2004 7:13:37 PM PST by summer
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies | Report Abuse >

===

To: All
Just from reading freeper comments on this forum over the past few months, it is really not too tough to come up with a platform that is profoundly different than GW, and would appeal greatly to people on this forum. But, the Dems really haven't done that yet. Kucinich, oddly enough, is hitting those freeper positions once in awhile - more often than GW seems to be sometimes.

120 posted on 02/26/2004 7:15:20 PM PST by summer
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies | Report Abuse >

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1086322/posts

And those aren't even the swing-voters. Now tell me who's electable again. None, not ONE, of the comments about the other candidates was positive.

[MaggieSwanson]

38. More on NAFTA

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
February 26, 2004

Congressman Dennis Kucinich tonight challenged Senators John Edwards and John Kerry to save American jobs by joining him in his pledge to cancel the North American Free Trade Agreement. Both refused.

>>snip<<

Neither Kerry nor Edwards would commit to canceling NAFTA. Kerry voted for NAFTA and has consistently voted for other comparable trade agreements. Kerry and Edwards both voted for the China trade agreement.Kucinich has been consistent in his opposition to so-called free trade.

>>snip<<

Edwards and Kerry both discussed plans to "fix" the trade agreements. The fact is they cannot be altered. Any proposed change can be overruled by the WTO. Free trade agreements have resulted in the loss of millions of American manufacturing jobs. Internationally, they have failed to uphold workers rights and environmental standards.

A Kucinich administration would return to bilateral trade conditioned on workers rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles.



For info on jobs: Putting America Back to Work IN America: http://www.kucinich.us/issues/jobs.php

Dennis on Ohio jobs: http://www.kucinich.us/jobstalk.php

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. If the media can destroy Kucinich in the primary

What makes you think that the general election will be any different?

[redqueen]

44. *sigh* It's so obvious!

Allow me to explain:

In the primaries, they can ignore Kucinich and spend all their time on tweedle dee and tweedle dum.

In the GE, though... well, hopefully you get the point. :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Just like it happened when he ran for reelection for Mayor, right?

[redqueen]

46. No, not just like then

At that point, the voters didn't know his principled and courageous and not to mention SELFLESS act to save their municipal power plant would save them $200 Million.

Now, they know that.

So I'd say that's a huge honkin difference, right there, just for starters.

:hi:

[tinanator]

54. And the media will treat other candidates fairly?

Banking on the media is ludicrous to the extreme.

[cyclezealot]

41. The Media did not destroy Kucinich

They just did all they could to ignore him. They try to tarnish him but if he were to stand up against Dubya,I insist it would Not Take.
Kucinich represents the mainstream thought on trade and Americans are sick of their medical system. I say a debate against Dubya and Dubya would be demolished. The reason DK has an uphill road. So few primary voters pay that much attention to debates. That is DK's only outlet. I am doing precinct work for DK. I know that for a fact.
It was Kerry, Edwards who had crediablity problems.. King's comments about being suckered.. Trade. Kerry had quite a jab and wanted to ignore and go onto others issues.
How anyone says Kerry looked presidentail is beyond me. Are you pro Kerry people listening.? A debate coach would flag these two in an instant for loosing points.
Maybe you think they look the image, but they do not talk the talk.
Image is nothing. Rove will have Dubya well tuned to his talking points about Kerry's inconsistencies.
The woman reporter for the Times was sharp.Wait until the general election when the likes of her goes after Kerry on Sunday AM TV shows. Rove will have an easy time of it.
Communications is Kucinich's background. He did excellant. Imagine if the media had to give him more time. Kucinich scored big time on the little time he had.

[dpbrown]

47. The Media can't destroy Kucinich while ignoring him

But I wonder where the plant of memes comes from sometimes.

The other day, I had a Kerry supporter tell me that she couldn't support Dennis because his successful saving of Muny Light exhibited fiscal irresponsibility because Cleveland schools were overburdened in the years following the nonsale of Muny Light.

When I pointed out that Kucinich was the youngest Mayor of a major US city at the time at age 31, and that he was commended by the City of Cleveland for saving Muny Light, and that Bush was still a coke-snorting practicing alcoholic with a criminal record at age 31 and went on to become President, she said, "Oh."

Where does this crap come from?

I wonder sometimes.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[ButterflyBlood]

49. Kucinich is nothing more than fodder for late night comics

Department of Peace? give me a break. he'll be ripped to shreds and regarded as a joke. Plus while opposing the invasion of Iraq is the right stance, there is no way a pacifist who wants to seriously cut the defense budget will win in post-9/11 America. Nor will the head of the Progressive Caucus, which is often considered the socialists in Congress. And I have no problem with that, I LOVE socialism, but it will not be electable. And then there's his executive experience. He bankrupted Cleveland. Not exactly the best record.

The only scenario in which Kucininch wins is if he invents a mindcontrol potion and dumps it into all major drinking water sources. Everyone will become a zombie and vote for him and he carries all 50 states. Otherwise he makes McGovern look like LBJ.

[scarletwoman]

53. At least be accurate in your critique

He did not "bankrupt" Cleveland. The city went into default and operated on a cash basis for 2 years.

20 years later he was honored by the City of Cleveland for having the foresight not to sell off Muny Light -- which has brought millions of dollars into city coffers.

I don't mind if people disagree about Kucinich, but I do mind if they cite untruths in the process.

sw

(edited for typo)

[jsw_81]

50. You have got to be kidding

Kucinich would get trounced and would almost certainly lose 49 states. Face reality: fringe leftists like Kucinich don't win national elections. Period.

[tinanator]

52. Kerry cant beat a rug against Bush

Like the Democratic Party hasnt had ample opportunity to learn this lesson. Kathleen Brown was an excellent example of trying to beat a Republican with a faux Republican. (The only reason Gray Davis kept winning was they rigged the opposition with morons worse than Bush for candidates.) Nothing but a proven losing proposition.