Tim Russert said this morning that Clinton vs. Obama will be like Ali vs. Frazier

[Colobo]

So, my question is: Who's Ali, the fighter with the intelligence, speed, ring generalship, chin, endurance and psychological toughness? Who's Frazier, the plodding fighter with a devastating left hook and excellent body work, huge heart and determination, superb chin and supreme patience?

What would YOU say?

[Colobo]

1. Comment!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Clinton Is Frazier

But Ali said fighting Joe Frazier was the closest thing to death and he hit him with punches that would bring down buildings when they fought in Manilla but couldn't drop him...

But I think Obama is more like Floyd Patterson or Jimmy Young...

[Colobo]

5. I'd say the Obama/Patterson comparison is on point, and Clinton also reminds me

of Holyfield.

[BeyondGeography]

89. Ali was always the better talent and, guess what

so is Obama.

Clinton might be Joe Frazier one day. I'd rate her at Jerry Quarry status right now without Bill; Frazier with Bill.

[MADem]

3. I say Timmy Two Shoes is a fucking asshole who likes to stir shit up!! NT

[Colobo]

4. It's a nice analogy if you like boxing, like I do.

[MADem]

64. Boxing is sport. Presidential elections have far more serious consequences.

Ask the families of the dead coming back from the ME.

To compare the contest to a little fist fight between two bozos in brightly colored underwear is disrespectful to the candidates and the position. And, as I said in post 60, the frigging Head of the DC Bureau of NBC News should know better.

He's a clown.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Much Of Your Commentary Is True But Muhammad Ali And Joe Frazier Were Far From Bozos In Underwear

They displayed skill, determination, and valor....

[H2O Man]

71. Ali was one

of the most important participants in the anti-war movement in the 1960s and early '70s. Boxing, far more than any other sport, is a reflection of society.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. Did You See American Gangster?

The fight is used as a backdrop... Russell Crowe's character asks a guy if he's going...The guy says he's not interested in boxing... Russell Crowe's characters says "This isn't boxing. This is politics."

I hate to generalize...The early 70's were a very polarized time ... If you were for the establishment and liked Nixon you liked Frazier...If you hated Nixon and the establishment you liked Ali...

Now Ali is a universally beloved figure...He wasn't then....But then Dr. King has gone through the same metamorphosis in the public mind...

[MADem]

92. But their job was to beat the fucking shit out of other humans.

It's the "sport" analogy that I find troubling--that's always Timmy the Potato Head's idiotic approach to politics. He "plays" gotcha and uses a platform that was originally designed so that candidates could actually MEET the damned PRESS (there used to be a panel of news reporters from papers and radio and tv who asked questions of a guest) into this "Aren't I The Cool DC Insider, and OH!!! I Have Another Idiotic Book About My Father--And To Hell With My Mother-- For Sale!!" load of absolute, schlocky horseshit.

I think Timmy should go home to Buffalo and work on a garbage truck. It would toughen his flabby ass up and maybe give him a little perspective. Give the damn show to Dave Gregory, and let guests actually MEET the PRESS once more.

[Joe the Revelator]

25. How is that stirring shit up? Unless you were hoping for a corination

nt

[MADem]

60. Reducing the POLICY differences of the two major candidates to a pugilistic

contest is childish and disrespectful to the candidates AND the process. This assclown Russert is the head of the fucking WASHINGTON BUREAU of NBC news, not some fucking newsreader talent. He's supposed to consider and impart the policy differences, compare and contrast the platforms, and do in-depth analysis of the candidates' strengths and weaknesses. He is also host of one of the oldest news programs on NBC, MEET THE PRESS, and since he's had it, he's fucking RUINED it. I'm sick of his shit.

We're electing a president, not watching pro wrestling. That kind of stupid, snarky comment is Fox Newsish, unserious, and brings out the WORST in people.

And I wasn't expecting a "coronation" of either King Barack or Queen Hillary. So stop ASSuming, OK? I just want the subject matter to be treated with a slight degree of gravitas, instead of like an episode of Jerry Fucking Springer.

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Hillary Is Larry Homes-A Technically Perfect But Somewhat Mechanical Boxer

~

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

43. Very good analogy

(But be careful... next thing you know we'll be hearing she said MLK couldn't carry her jock.)

[H2O Man]

72. Larry Holmes

was not a mechanical fighter. The exact opposite: Larry was intelligent, and able to adjust in the ring.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I Meant Is As He Was A Technician

To me he was an engineer in the ring... An Ali or Sugar Ray were artists...

It wasn't meant to be pejorative... You don't win as many fights and be successful as he was without being good...

[H2O Man]

81. He gets inducted

into the Boxing Hall of Fame in June. Any DUers who are interested in going should meet up with me there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. Holmes Was Great

I know some purists didn't like it but I enjoyed the showey fighters... When Ali or Leonard would make faces at their opponents or do wind up punches, stuff like that I found it entertaining...

It was the faces and wind up punches that made Duran quit his second fight against Leonard...He was being beat to the punch and humiliated as well...But Duran invited it in the pre fight build up when he questioned Sugar Ray's courage and called him a "puta"...

[H2O Man]

86. Duran scared most people.

Before the first Leonard fight, Roberto also said some ugly things to Ray's wife. She was a nice lady, and didn't deserve his shit. It got in Ray's head, and instead of trying to box the guy, he tried to go toe-to-toe.

Once Ray turned pro, I didn't care for him. But even though he made a bad mistake in the first fight, I think it proved the guy was unreal tough. I had great respect for him.

[Sparkly]

7. I'd just say I hate physical fighting metaphors for political campaigns. nt

[Colobo]

9. Boxing is art.

[IndianaJones]

10. Huge second. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. The Sweet Science

My dad was an amateur boxer...My uncle was a National Guard Champ and professional...

[Colobo]

18. That's awesome, DSB.

I never boxed, but I'm a huge fan and fight collector. Glad to know we got some boxing fans around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. My Uncle Also Had A Glass Eye Courtesy Of Boxing

When I was a kid we used to go to the Garden to see Golden Gloves fighters...

[H2O Man]

68. "Cradle of Champions"

80 years of the NY Daily News Golden Gloves, by Bill Farrrll, is an outstanding book.

I watched the northeastern division of the Silver Gloves finals last weekend. There's a kid there that I am sure will win the Olympics the next time around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. John Edwards Would Be Jerry Quarry

~

[Colobo]

39. That's sad... poor Jerry...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. His Second Fight With Ali

Ali was just pounding him with one hand and waving to the ref with the other to come in and stop the fight...

Jerry Quarry was just good enough...Good enough to beat most ranked contenders to get a fight with an Ali or Frazier and get hurt really bad...

[rusty_parts2001]

63. I was thinking more like Tex Cobb

[H2O Man]

69. Quarry vs Mac Foster

was on ESPN-Classic last night (12 pm est). He was a heck of a fighter.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

42. And Mike Gravel is Butterbean

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Wouldn't That Be Richardson?

LOL

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

52. Richardson is Roberto Duran in his very last fight.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Roberto Duran Is One Hombre

I remember when he called Sugar Ray Leoanrd a puta...

He was crazy...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. JRE Would Be James Braddock

~

[Renew Deal]

13. It makes me want to kick someone's ass.

:evilgrin:

[Sparkly]

14. Or strangle someone in their crib?

:puke:

[Renew Deal]

17. Ummm. no

:wtf: :D

[Sparkly]

37. A Tweety remark.

I thought you were familiar with it. (Clinton wants to strangle Obama's candidacy in its crib.)

[Renew Deal]

45. Did he really say that?

That's insane!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. He Said It

He harbors all these uber macho fantasies and has this fascination for "strong" men... It's quite disturbing given what his role is...

[Renew Deal]

54. My wife said to me yesterday: "That guy hates women."

She didn't know who he was or anything. That was sometime during election returns.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. He's Caught In A Generational Warp...

~

[Sparkly]

49. Yup

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712220005?f=s_search

Summary: Chris Matthews introduced the "Hot Topic" for the December 20 edition of Hardball: "Is the Hillary Clinton campaign trying to obliterate Obama's candidacy? Not just beat it, but strangle it in the crib before there's any chance he catches on?" Matthews used imagery of Clinton murdering an infant Obama several times during the show, including saying that "the goal is to smother the young senator in his crib."

Shortly thereafter, he continued the violent imagery and asked what she'd do with the body.

Summary: On Hardball, Chris Matthews again used violent imagery to portray Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, asking, "(W)hat does she do with the body? How does she get rid of a Barack Obama if she ever gets to beat him?" Matthews has previously asked, "Is the Hillary Clinton campaign trying to obliterate Obama's candidacy? Not just beat it, but strangle it in the crib before there's any chance he catches on?" Other media figures have also portrayed Clinton and her aides as violent or ruthless, including Maureen Dowd who once wrote that Clinton, like Tony Soprano, "is so power-hungry that she can justify any thuggish means to get the prize."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200801050005?f=s_search

[liberalmuse]

8. Kill me. Please.

I mean, we've got about 11 more months of hearing these kind of pathetic, largely inadequate analogies from the MSM. URGH!!!

[AtomicKitten]

11. I can see that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. The Photo Of Cassius Clay (Ali) Standing Over Liston Is One Of The Most Iconic Photos In Sports

~

[Colobo]

19. Phantom punch.

I just think Liston was scared to death of Ali and didn't want anymore of it.

[IndianaJones]

23. Liston was a monster. He wasn't scared of anyone. There was either a punch...

or a big payoff.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

31. No, Ali was really that fast back then. In slow motion you can see the punch.

It was that perfect jaw shot where the guy's head doesn't move much because the neck can't twist at that angle. So all the force goes right into the brain.

So in real time it looks like a tap. But in slo-mo you can see the force of it.

Ali really was that fast, before the draft suspension.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. They Say He Was The Fastest Boxer Ever...Just Not The Fastest Heavyweight

The Muhammad Ali of 60’s was the fastest heavyweight ever. In the May 5, 1969 Sports Illustrated, Ali’s jab was measured with an omegascope. Ali’s jab, it was found, could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. It actually covered the distance in 4/100 of a second, which is the blink of an eye. Jimmy Jacobs, who owned the world’s largest collection of fight films, said that on film tests with a synchronizer Ali’s jab was faster than that of Sugar Ray Robinson. Jacobs contended that Ali was not only the fastest heavyweight, but also the fastest fighter he ever saw on film.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/ali.html

[H2O Man]

74. Exactly.

More, you can see that the punch lifts Listons front foot upon impact. Angelo Dundee has pointed that out on ESPN-Classic when people have questioned if the punch really nailed him.

The only serious question is if he could have gotten to his feet quicker. The ref, former champion Jersey Joe Walcott (Arnold Raymond Cream) had momentarily lost control of the action. Ali was running around the ring, and Walcott was attempting to get him to the neutral corner. Liston didn't want to get up with Ali over him, which was a good idea.

When Liston got up, he and Ali began fighting again. While they were fighting, Nat Fleischer, the editor of The Ring boxing magazine, told Walcott that Liston had been down for more than ten seconds. Walcott then stopped the fight.

[AtomicKitten]

22. I'm hoping it turns out to be prophetic.

[Colobo]

24. Liston was seen then as one of the meanest, baddest men alive.

He was feared and thought of as invincible...

[AtomicKitten]

30. * pow *

;)

[SoxFan]

15. Mike Huckabee is Buster Douglas

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Mike Huckabee Is Ron Stander

A hayseed and a tomato can...

[SoxFan]

58. Ron Paul's supporters...

are the crowd at the Marvin Hagler/Alan Minter fight in 1980

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Don't Remember

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvNIuqCWRM

[Colobo]

21. The one that beat Tyson or the bloated one that got stopped in 3 by

Holyfield? Maybe both- a one night champion?

[SoxFan]

50. Exactly

One TKO does not a legend make.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

56. I hate to say it, but Huckabee is a lot like Foreman 2

Foreman lost an incredible amount of weight on TV during his comeback climb, is had become likable and glib, and a preacher.

And if Huckabee wins it will be as shocking as when Foreman won the title the second time around with that last second knock-out.

[IndianaJones]

27. You need to come into the sports forum and discuss boxing with us sometime.

I see that you are a fan.

[Colobo]

28. Got to. Roy stops Tito in 7.

What a sad fight.

[IndianaJones]

35. Jones is probably my favorite fighter ever. I hate to see him still fighting.

I see it going to the cards. I hope Jones can get a decision.

[H2O Man]

75. Jones says

he'll end it in four. He should be able to, as long as he carries Tito for a round.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

29. Clinton is clearly Frazier in that match up

And it is Ali-Frazier I.

Ali had the talent, but he came back to fast from his draft suspension for that fight. He needed more tune-ups.

So in the end, the graceful artist got beat down by the much smaller man from an accumulation of crushing shots, simply because he wasn't quite ready.

It's really not a terrible analogy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. That Fight Broke My Ten Year Old Heart

Ali was my idol...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

38. You know, I love Ali, but he was a pretty bad guy.

His racial ugliness toward opponents is hard to forgive.

And he was the most prolific cheater I've ever seen... in today's fight game his open handed "jab" wouldn't be tolerated, and that clearly illegal tactic was the basis of his style.

But Ted Williams was a real SOB too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. He Was Ugly To Frazier Because He Saw Frazier As The Embodiment Of The White Establishment

Which is sad...

But if you read accounts from most of his other opponents they thought he was a pretty good guy...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

51. Mocking Frazier for having dark skin and calling him Gorilla was pretty bad.

Yeah, it's gamesmanship, but way over any line.

Ali had a habit of attributing his beauty to his relatively light skin, and the stuff about Frazier being too ugly was overt as being that he was too dark to be beautiful.

I'm not saying Ali was terrible... but that dynamic with Frazier has always bothered me a lot.

[IndianaJones]

53. Ali has apologized and Frazier accepted. nt.

[H2O Man]

77. What?

Ali's jab was not "open handed."

If one wants to identify the things he did that bent/broke the rules, they could include: (a) rubbing the heel of his glove in Ernie Terrell's eyes; (b) rubbing Ernie's face on the rope; (c) the "chop" to the opponents' collar bone that Melinda taught him (she had a black belt); and (d) his tying up and pushing and leaning on opponents.

But the jab has always been rated as one of the very best in the heavyweight division, along with Louis, Liston, and Holmes. If he threw it with an open hand, he would have broken the bones in it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. (d) his tying up and pushing and leaning on opponents.

That was a masterful tactic...It prevented his opponents from hurting him by in fighting and since he was generally taller he was successful at it... He didn't have much in the tank in Spinks Two but that tactic secured the win...Every time Spinks tried to get in close Ali tied him up...It also gave him a lot of respites...

I wish he would retired right then...

[H2O Man]

82. He should have

retired after the 3rd Frazier fight. And sure as heck after Shavers -- that guy was a monster, and he really hurt the Champ.

Don King knew that Ali was having problems, medical tests were cause for concern. But he pushed him into the last two fights ... Holmes and Berbick.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Pat Putnam Of SI Said Round Fifteen Was One Of The Greatest Of His Career, Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGm1AOPqumg

[H2O Man]

85. I saw Ernie's

last fight with hair. The Broome County Arena in Binghamton was being used as a "feeder" for MSG, and they had good fights there. It was in April of '75, and he was fighting Rochell Norris, a young contender who was 11-1. Ernie had been struggling in some of his last few fights. The idea was that the guy who won would be one fight away from a title fight.

Norris was a good boxer, with a fair punch. He planned to go a few rounds, to tire Ernie out. But even after 8 rounds, Shavers wasn't tired. He started throwing bombs -- just unreal. He missed with a few, and you could hear the wind from outside the ring. I'm serious. Then he'd get this little grin, and he winked at Norris. He ended it in the 10th with perhaps the hardest punch I've ever seen.

If memory serves me correctly, after the Shavers fight, Ali used the wonderful line, "He hit me so hard, my ancestors felt it back in Africa."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. You Should Read The Book "Facing Ali" If You Get The Chance

My mom has had the honor of pleasure of meeting Ali...She met him in 87...She said he was one of the two most handsome men she met...The other one was Harry Belafonte who she met at the Copa back in the 50's...

[H2O Man]

88. I have it,

and have given out copies. Great book.

My brother used to hang out in his training camps. I'll try to find some of the old photos.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

93. I don't mean his real jab. I mean the open handed pawing he used to catch punches and block vision

I called it a "jab" jokingly because the only way it's legal to stick your hand in someone's face is if it's a punch.

Ali's real jab was excellent.

[H2O Man]

76. Ali was 215 lbs,

Frazier was 205.5 lbs (official weights of each fighter for the first match).

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

94. Frazier had very heavy bones!

[Warren Stupidity]

34. Tim Russert is a paid political operative.

Consequently, as I know where he stands and what his agenda is, I dismiss everything he says as deliberately manipulative and disingenuos. Mr. Potato Head is a big fat liar.

[Catherine Vincent]

36. Tim Russert sucks! nt

[no name no slogan]

41. More like Mondale vs. Hart

nt

[Aviation Pro]

62. What, no comparisons to Micky Ward?

"The Warrior's Code"

You're the fighter you've got the fire
The spirit of a warrior, the champion's heart
You fight for your life because the fighter never quits
You make the most of the hand you're dealt
Because the quitter never wins
No!

You were born to box in a city that's seen their share
Mello, Ryan, Carney, among them your photo proudly hangs there
Above the bar in the Gaelic Club
They tell the story of a throwback
With the heart of a lion
They salute your glory

It's another murderous right
Another left hook from hell
A bloody war on the boardwalk
And the kid from Lowell rises to the bell


Micky
It's a warrior's code
Micky
He's got the warrior's soul

[H2O Man]

91. Tough man.

Lots of fun to watch fight. But he wouldn't be a good politician, because he didn't focus much on defense.

[GalleryGod]

65. Ha! E-Z....

PECKIN' and A-POKIN'...POURIN' WATER ON HILL'S SMOKIN' !!!!

[sunonmars]

66. I'd be careful

After what we saw in NH, Clinton is the kind of fighter, who takes punch after punch, gets knocked bown and then gets up and kicks the living daylights out of you when you least expect it.

They way she kicked the Obama momentum off the tracks on Tuesday night ought to show that.

[ellisonz]

73. 2-3 points is hardly "living daylights."

[H2O Man]

67. Joe Frazier

was not a "plodding" fighter. He had wonderful movement, including very good foot work. He could cut the ring off against the two heavyweights with the best footwork in their era -- Ellis and Ali. Frazier stalked his opposition like a predatory animal.

I can see Russert's point, and I think this is an interesting post/thread. Barack is Ali, and Hillary is Smokin' Joe. It's important to keep in mind that Ali and Frazier not only brought out the best in each other, but they took from each other. Neither was the same after their fights.

(I was at ringside for the 2nd one!)

[baldguy]

90. Thats Ali McGraw & Frazier Crain