My Terms for a Kerry Vote in the GE

[Scott Lee]

Anti-Dean Members of Democratic Underground: Below are the terms for my support of John Kerry in the General Election. If you agree to all of them, I will vote for John Kerry in November. Read and sign the following:


I am a pissy, air-punching little kneejerk democratic conservative.

I have been a willing stooge for the Democratic Party establishment and their goal to keep the party marginally oppositional, if not a blatant amen chorus to the Republican agenda.

The notion that the Democratic Party would undergo core change in order to throw the Republican conservative religious freaks out of power scared the life out of me, and I opposed it with every fibre of my being.

I believed that pink tutu quislings like Dick Gephardt, Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, John Edwards, Zell Miller and Tom Daschle were fine examples of good Democrats.

I was ready, able and anxious to elect a Bush enabler as long as it meant the White House became Democratic next year.

I was willing to completely overlook the rethuglican compliant votes of other democrats, like votes for the Iraq war and the Patriot Act, and trumpet said democrats as the answer to Bush.

I was a blind, neophytic disruptor who had a hand in destroying the campaign of the only true Democratic hope for change, Howard Dean.

I am truly sorry for all that I have confessed to above, and from here on out pledge myself to:


* Work locally and or nationally to overhaul the fossilized DNC/DLC establishment and instill it with fresh perspectives and a motivation for becoming a true opposition to republican fascism, rather than a rubber stamp for it.

* Retain a highly critical and vigilant watch on John Kerry should he become president, holding his feet to the fire of his own stated positions and see that he does not become Bush lite.

* Demand all Democrats in Congress stand up for Democratic principles in all legislative actions, and demand the immediate ouster of any Democrat who sells them out for personal political safety or gain.

* Publically and repeatedly denounce all DINOs and party traitors who preferred to hold on to their cozy leadership positions rather than stand up to fascists, tyrants and warmongers in the GOP party.

* Ask forgiveness from all members at Democratic Underground whom I or my cohorts have maligned, insulted, harrassed or threatened during my period of ignorance.

* Get down on my knees and beg forgiveness from Howard Dean for aligning myself with the rightwing press, the Republicans, the homophobes, the warmongers, the misogynists and reactionaries who hated him as much as I did.


In return for complete future compliance to the above pledges and principles, Scott Lee will vote for John Kerry in the General Election.

[JVS]

1. Great post

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indigo32]

2. Scott

rudeness does not excuse rudeness. Just give it a rest... and vote how you need to vote.

[Cha]

24. Just because Scott is telling the blatant truth...

you think ..it is "rude"?.
Time to stand up for what you believe!

Go Scott!

[indigo32]

39. So Scott has a lock on the truth?

and not only that it's impossible for him to proclaim it with any semblance of diplomacy?
WOW I didn't know that.
I mean crap.... I am sympathetic to most of what he says up there... but I know I'm not doing my cause any good by screaming it.

[Cha]

53. That's no reason why Scott can't.

And, yes, the truth hurts.

[indigo32]

56. You're right , Scott can do what he likes

but I can call Rudeness, Rudeness, if I want to too. The truth hurts indeed. I've put up with alot of shit as a Dean supporter... but that doesn't mean I have to approve of efforts to continue the free-for-all that this forum is, from either side.

[Cha]

65. Duly noted.

I approve!

[janx]

58. Somebody has to say it,

no?

Or are you content to be passive and watch the democratic process erode even further?

[indigo32]

64. watch the democratic process erode even further....

what does trashing John Kerry for the sole purpose of pissing off a good number of people on this message board have to do with saving the democratic process?

[Cha]

66. kerry trashed himself..

Unfortunately!

[indigo32]

71. I know I know

but Bush trashed himself worse.

[janx]

67. The more people understand what is happening,

the better--even if it's unpleasant at first.

Our federal government and some of those in positions of power in the Dem party are very corrupt.

[littlejoe]

78. Explain how John Kerry is "corrupt".

[littlejoe]

68. Great tactic, but it won't work.

This is a tactic that I see the G.O.D. use all of the time--ascribe your own childish tactics to your enemy, and do it first. Only we are not the enemy.

Howard Dean is gone. Get over it. Why would you care so much for a man that pissed away his campaign so frivilously? Hell, he barely made it out of the starting gate.

I have to wonder out loud about the age, wisdom and maturity of anyone who gets hopelessly wrapped up in a shooting star candidate.

[indigo32]

75. speaking of rudeness

eom

[littlejoe]

130. The truth hurts.

[littlejoe]

131. And don't be angry at me. Be angry at the candidate who

let a lot of people down. And yes, that's Dean.

[indigo32]

136. Dean has nothing to do with YOUR rudeness

eom

[littlejoe]

162. If you want to equate the truth with rudeness, that is your

perrogative!

[indigo32]

194. When you come up with some truth

about Dean supporters lemme know...
in the mean time read this post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x402671#402910

[littlejoe]

202. My truth related to Dean. I don't know what YOU were talking about.

[littlejoe]

73. The only thing that is blatent, is the childish behavior of some

supporters of "lost cause" candidates who don't have the decency to bow out of the race.

[JHBowden]

3. Dean supporters have no business calling others DINOs.

Kerry, if nominated, would be the most liberal candidate to run for the Presidency since McGovern, if not ever.

[Capn Sunshine]

13. More liberal than Dukakis?

whew, THAT'S a relief

[JHBowden]

17. I'm surprised you guys believe George Bush is that liberal.

The anti-ABBers act like Bush wants to renegotiate NAFTA, is for higher CAFE standards, is pro-choice, against an amendment banning gay marriage, and so forth.

:dunce:

[AntiCoup2K4]

45. Bullshit!

Liberals do not vote for wars, they do not vote for fascist constitution shredding, they do not vote for the destruction of public education and they most definitely do not compliment a fascist butcher for building the sequel to the goddamned Berlin Wall.

[JHBowden]

88. I guess Paul Wellstone isn't a liberal.

He voted for the Patriot Act, and that disqualifies him in your opinion.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

Aw gee, Pete - I thought you were a unificator!

Not a dividicator!

[sistersofmercy]

206. ...

Good one! :toast:

[janx]

5. That certainly sounds fair. n/t

;-)

[mindem]

6. Why don't you just vote for Nader N/T

[janx]

20. What does Nader have to do with this?

[mindem]

23. I'm just saying

that if he is so damned unhappy with the democratic party go ahead and vote for someone else.

[janx]

25. I somehow don't think he's going to do that. n/t

[sadiesworld]

7. Take it up with the RW media.

[buckeye1]

8. I'm sure Kerry cares.

A whole lot.

[Anwen]

9. Scott Lee

:) :thumbsup:

[PROGRESSIVE1]

10. I will not forgive Zell "Dick Russell's Love Child" Miller!

He is a turncoat Dixiecrat!

Zell Miller supports the BFEE! Remember That!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:kick:

[AntiCoup2K4]

48. So does John Kerry

PNAC = BCE/BFEE and PPI = PNAC

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozola]

12. Well...

that certainly could be interpreted as a "pissy" reply.

[BruinAlum]

16. Then maybe I didn't make it strong enough

[Bozola]

21. If you would like to make a "pissy" tone stronger, I suggest asparagus.

It always works for me.

[Capn Sunshine]

18. I really enjoy the new tone here at DU

since the Kerry folk have truly ARRIVED. :hi:

[Anwen]

27. It's lovely, isn't it?

:)

[KC21304]

28. You've noticed ! And the thread started here is a good example. n/t

[littlejoe]

74. Amen to that!

[emulatorloo]

14. Well, I still think the sig graphic is pretty cool n/t

[jpgray]

15. Supporters of Dennis Kucinich should spit at this tripe.

'the only true Democratic hope for change, Howard Dean.'

Marginalizing Dennis is shameful. Supporters of Kucinich could level every argument in your entire thread back at you for not supporting Dennis. Yet you will be blind to this hypocrisy, I'm sure.

[EXE619K]

22. This is slanderous!

An outrage!

Tripe, when prepared properly, is tasty(especially in curry).

I'm deeply offended by your slanderous comments about tripe!

[jpgray]

59. My apologies.

Truth be told, I've never eaten tripe. One could argue my premise is based on conjecture and therefore my argument is not sound. Slanderous indeed. :D

[no name no slogan]

44. We do.

It's a little too drama queen for my tastes. And Dean was a little too DINO for my tastes as well. But, it's only rock-n-roll ya know.

[RichM]

140. Excellent point, jp. Thank you for saying it.

I was just thinking the same, in perusing the thread.

[DancingBear]

19. As my mom is fond of saying

Kids these days... :shrug:

[janx]

54. What kids?

?

[Mile Hi]

26. Maybe another 4 years of Bush would be good

Then maybe, just maybe enough people will turn off Survivor and stop wondering whether they should have skim milk or 2% in their Starbuck coffee and start giving a damn about what is going on.

The GOP and media got the person they wanted to run against Bush. It's going to be Kerry. I listen to what Gilespie and the others are saying and I just shake my head. The general public will listen to how Kerry flip flops and Bush is going to clean up the floor with Kerry.

Here is some of the stuff they have on Kerry

Against the wall dividing Israel and West Bank.
Now for the wall.

Against Constituational amendment banning Gay Marriage
Now against Gay Marriage

Against businesses moving off shore
Now is accepting donation from companies moving off shore

Was for media consolidation (voted for the bill)
Now against it.

Against Gulf war 1
Now for Gulf war 2
But wait now against Gulf war

The list keeps going on and on.

The DNC is waiting until 2008, they are circling the wagons. They are giving up on this one to go against a non-incumbent.

The DNC is only concerned about keeping their power not fixing this country.

[rockymountaindem]

32. Keeping their power?

What power? Last time I checked the Repubs. hold the White House, both houses of Congress and the SCOTUS. What exactly is the DNC trying to hold on to?

I don't see any logic in those arguments that say the DNC is just trying to hold on to power. They don't have any right now.

[janx]

38. That's not the kind of power MileHi was referring to,

if I am reading that post correctly.

[Mile Hi]

76. You read it correctly

Not the power of having control of congress, just their little piece of the pie power over us, the commomn folk.

[Eloriel]

61. Now, c'mon, MIke -- you know that's just Kerry practicing his

"nuance."

:evilgrin:

And unfortunately, they're RIGHT. (Do you KNOW how fucking awful it is to have to say -- for the first time since Bush was "selected" -- that they're RIGHT? Sheesh!)

[mzmolly]

79. Heinz has over 50 factories overseas... and only 20 in the US

I heard a neocon pimping that info recently too. Though Heinz WAS owned by a Rethuglican Senator so??

[KC21304]

170. I think there is a difference between a company that has been

international for many years and a company that moves it's headquarters off shore for tax purposes. Besides Heinz is owned by Campbell Soup which is owned by I don't know who. I don't think Theresa has a say in anything to do with that company if she ever did and certainly John Kerry never did.

But Kerry on with the Heinz site analysis.

[mzmolly]

226. My point was that the neo-cons are touting this mmmmk?

prepare to have to defend this argument agaaaaaaain.

[leyton]

29. I guess your vote is one we can do without.

Sorry, but I'm not going to prostrate myself before you just for your vote. I support those tutu quislings and am not ashamed of it. John Kerry will just have to make do, I guess.

[w13rd0]

30. Kerry is so damned electable...

...he doesn't need our votes.

[Atlant]

34. We'll know soon, ehh? (NT)

[janx]

43. Yes indeed we will. n/t

[JVS]

35. Wow. I'm impressed.

Are democrats like that soap opera woman on Simpsons?
(approximate exchange)
Woman: you treat me like dirt.
Man: that's because it's the way you like it, baby.
Passionate kissing follows

[Anwen]

46. LOL!!!

:D

[Cha]

70. That's right. he doesn't

need me.

[littlejoe]

195. And your guy is electable?

[w13rd0]

237. Transferrence problems...

...bother you much?

Bush: "Vote for me, I'm not Hitler"

Kerry: "Vote for me, I'm not Bush"

YEAH! Democracy wins!

I say: "If Kerry is so damned electable, he doesn't need my support."

To which you say: "And your guy is electable?"

But in thread after thread, you've told me that if I don't support Kerry, then I support Bush. But then you go on to say things like "when Bush wins", "blamed for our loss in November". I know you apparently think Bush is my candidate by your astonishing logic, but given that you are already seeking to find people to blame for him getting a second term, how do we know he isn't your candidate?

[bigtree]

31. I have never seen anything from John Kerry so strident and insulting

I fail to see why anyone with a modicum of comity would associate themselves with your remarks.

[Scott Lee]

33. What, no takers?

I am very disappointed. I mean, here I am extending an olive branch and this is the reponse I get.

Dear me, I guess Kerry doesn't need the support of us po' folk for change.

[JVS]

36. I guess those rude people just want 4 more years of Bush

[sangha]

90. Vote for Dean! Dean is going to win!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49573

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49582

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=49199&mesg_id=49936&page=

(To answer TLM's question, "Is Dean?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49595

[JVS]

99. At least he didn't need his tongue surgically removed from Bush's anus...

like Kerry did.

[sangha]

103. That's why Dean will win!

If he hasn't won already

[JVS]

104. No, that's why Kerry wil lose!

Because he licks bush's ass too much.

[sangha]

108. Of course Kerry will lose. Dean is going to win!

I know because I was told by people on the Internet!

[JVS]

115. I beg to differ. I doubt Dean can get our nomination at this point.

And People on the Internet are now often claiming that Kerry can win.

[sangha]

118. Kerry CAN win, but Dean WILL win

It's true

[littlejoe]

134. Support the G.O.D. if you wish.

[edzontar]

146. I guess there may be a limit after all to their ABB grovelling

They a e willing to support or excuse cotowing to BUSH* on almost every issue of import, but not to confess to a little pissiness to get your vote.

Such sinful pride!!!!

[paulk]

221. olive branch?

You're extending your middle finger, like you always do.

[windansea]

37. locking

vanity posts belong in the lounge

[JVS]

40. You have no authority to lock.

[windansea]

49. doh!!!!

really?? :eyes:

[JVS]

50. really

[edzontar]

148. The ultimate DU wet-dream I guess--to be an instant Moderator

nt.

[WI_DEM]

41. seems pretty reasonable to me

thanks for posting.

[MrPeepers]

42. Anti-Kerry Members of Democratic Underground...

These are the terms you are agreeing to in pursuing this kind of thing.

I am a pissy, elitest, self-righteous, rude kneejerk blind reactionary.

I have been a willing stooge to the disruption and dismemberment of the Democratic Party and the creation of vast amounts of ill will between internal camps, providing great weaknesses for the Republicans to exploit.

I will blame any and all problems on the other candidates who defeated mine, because I simply cannot deal with the fact that my candidate was defeated.

I believe that Howard Dean is the messiah, and none but he can improve or save the United States.

I believe that anyone who disagrees with me is a right-wing ultra-religious racist homophobic ignorant asshole who deserves to be treated with the utmost contempt without any effort to understand differences of opinion.

I am ready, able, and willing to call anyone I want a Bush Enabler with no real proof to support that assertion beyond my own foul temperment.

Admit to these crimes, and I shall regain maybe just a little respect for you.

Peepers

[Cha]

47. The "Proof" is ..

the "YES" votes on IWR, The Patriot Act, NCLB, and The tax cuts!

[BruinAlum]

51. I'll sign on to that

:thumbsup:

[w13rd0]

52. disruption and dismemberment?

don't go buying any glass houses

and the dismemberment began some time ago, as pink tutu jackasses sold off the soul of the democratic party bit by bit for fatty pork corporate contributions

and jeepers, even the sig lines are a pale imitations that ring hollow

[mzmolly]

81. Ok LOL...

What's good for the goose as they say. LOL You guys are cracking me up today.

It's good I'm to apathetic to much give a damn anyhow... :) weeeeee. Off to enjoy the 40 degree heat wave in MN. :hi:

[Mile Hi]

85. You'll be cryin the same tune

After the GE in November.

[The Magistrate]

159. An Excellent Summary, Mr. Peepers

"Let ten thousand flowers bloom! Let one hundred schools of thought contend!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[littlejoe]

196. Succinctly put!

[quaker bill]

215. While I have no particular need for your respect

I have supported and continue to support Howard Dean. I was critical of John Kerry when he was behind and am just as critical of him now. I will continue to be critical of him win or lose. I simply have little faith in him as a leader.

The fact that people are voting for him does change my view. Lots of people voted for Bush* and I don't like him either.

I can deal with defeat just fine, after all, I have been voting for democrats for 32 years and have gotten plenty of experience.

I was kind of hoping that I would not gain further experience in this regard in 2004.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

55. Dean lost - Get Over It

You will vote for Kerry in the GE.

You'll just tell everyone you didn't.

[janx]

57. "Get Over It" "Bring it On"--

Why do these slogans sound so familiar?

[mzmolly]

83. "Stop Crying In Your Teacups"

nother one :P

[JVS]

121. Because they lifted from right-wingers

[littlejoe]

138. We've seen the last of Howard Dean on the political landscape.

He blew the contest before it really began. Yes, get over it. Howard is no more.

[littlejoe]

139. We've seen the last of Howard Dean on the political landscape.

He blew the contest before it really began. Yes, get over it. Howard is no more.

[edzontar]

149. It's much easier to just cut and paste slogans

Than to try to think of something original to say.

[sangha]

177. "Take back America!"

Bush*-lite
Republican
insider
pro-war

Hey, for one you're right!

[BL_Zebub]

133. Sieg Heil! DLC Uber Alles!!

You Vill vote for Kerry or you Vill be exterminated!!

[chiburb]

60. Why would anyone WANT your vote or support?

When you believe this:

"Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."

It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old."

http://iww.org/stand.shtml

From your website:

He is also a member of the Salt Lake General Membership Branch of the I.W.W. (Industrial Workers of the World), a supporter of Food Not Bombs, and of the One World Foundation.

[tameszu]

93. Clearly,

Dr. Dean with his Park Avenue upbringing was part of the intellectual vanguard which is serving as the midwife of the world-historic movement that is actualizing the contradictions inherent in our bourgeois mode of production, whose pressures will create the dialetical conditions required for the proletariat to become the first class in history to become fully self-conscious of itself as a class, thus demystifying the alienation of commodified labor-time that occurs behind the backs of all of the actors in our otherwise materially determined capitalist system, and so allowing workers everywhere to become the first truly revolutionary class and to once and for all sunder the mythic chains of both our exploitative system of wage-labor as well as our reactionary political superstructure.

Or something like that, right, Scott?

I wish we had more BFA posts like this...

[chiburb]

94. Wow!

That was great!

Thx.

[DancingBear]

110. Now THAT was funny!

Look! A book by Engels!

And Sociology 455 "The Working Proletariat" still has openings!

Thanks, tameszu - that was perfect... :)

[mitchum]

111. LOL!

nicely done

[chiburb]

129. Yes, but how would Scott rationalize this?

Also from Scott's IWW:

"The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers."

I thought Dr. Dean was a strong union man?

[Octafish]

199. ROFLMAO! A clink of the champagne glass to you!

Four more years!

[mitchum]

106. Yes, but I wouldn't hold his participation against those organizations

I do wish there were more lead-footed truck drivers, though...

[chiburb]

124. You're right, but can we hold it against DU?

Just kidding Mods and Admin!

:-)

[XanaDUer]

137. Vrooom, vrooom!

"Get your motors running..."

[edzontar]

152. I live in PA. I think the DNC wants MY vote.

It is very close here, and this state could determine the election.

I am also in some position to work for the election of the Dem if I so choose.

So you just might want to try a more diplomatic line of argument, maybe.

[chiburb]

165. Sorry, I use my diplomacy on people

I respect. This kind of thread demands respect? Ha!
Besides, I talk to progressives, not people who oppose trade unions.

[FDRrocks]

235. nvm

[BL_Zebub]

62. Most Unholy, Scott!

And the Devil's terms are pretty much the same :evilgrin:

[sangha]

69. Vote for Dean! Dean is going to win!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49595

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49573

[seaglass]

77. That was a great laugh, thanks sangha. n/t

[Bozola]

91. He has won...where it matters

We are getting more and more organized every day. That's a major victory, IMHO.

[sangha]

105. That's the spirit!

Don't worry about beating Bush*. It's more important that we organize!

Then we can raise a lot of money, throw it at the first two primaries, win them, and use the momentum to win the nomination.

And all we have to do is organize!

[Bozola]

155. "Don't worry about beating Bush*." I'm not worried. Why are you?

Is there something in Kerry's past that could completely bollox up the election?

Something you're scared of?

[sangha]

160. I'm not worried. Dean is going to win!

I know because people on the Internet told me so!

[littlejoe]

197. He has won where it matters? Where is that, pray tell?

[curse10]

120. Love it!

Thanks sangha!

[littlejoe]

142. Beeyooteefulll! Thanks, sangha.

[mzmolly]

72. ROTFLMAO!

:yourock:

AHHH, It's good to see you round these parts Mr. Lee. :evilgrin:

[returnable]

80. Translation:

"My guy lost! I want my mommy! Waaaaaaaaaaa!" :hi:

[sangha]

82. Sour grapes make bitter whines

.

[chiburb]

86. See post # 60...

Maybe we can ask Admin's opinion if that's a progressive or subversive stance?

[janx]

84. Your translation skills need some work.

Because that's not what the post is saying at all.

[Bozola]

92. Nader!

Boo!

[littlejoe]

144. Better translation: My guy lost, so I'm gonna stick my finger

in your guy's eye!

[RetroLounge]

87. Nice post! But Hmmmm. No takers Scott.

I wonder why?

RL

[Crunchy Frog]

220. And he was so polite

about it too.:shrug:

[mitchum]

89. Who fucking cares?

[Forkboy]

96. you did enough to respond

apparently :shrug:

[mitchum]

98. Jesus Christ, Oscar Levant has risen from the dead!

I repeat: Who fucking cares?

[Forkboy]

132. you did enough to keep responding

apparently :shrug:

[mitchum]

141. But you didn't care enough to look up Oscar Levant...

I bet.

[chiburb]

143. He was FUNNY!

The hypochondriac? Very funny man...

[XanaDUer]

147. You're on a roll, mitchum!

:) :) :) :)

[littlejoe]

161. Oh my god! An Oscar Levant reference!

[mitchum]

182. And I bet you thought this thread was going to be all shit-flinging

:)

[littlejoe]

198. Up to now, it took on those qualities.

[wyldwolf]

95. That's ok, we don't need your vote...

[WI_DEM]

97. tell enough progressives that

and you may be proven wrong.

[chiburb]

100. He didn't say it to a progressive...

He said it to Scott Lee, who believes this:

"Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."

It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old."

http://iww.org/stand.shtml

From Scott's website:

He is also a member of the Salt Lake General Membership Branch of the I.W.W. (Industrial Workers of the World), a supporter of Food Not Bombs, and of the One World Foundation.

[wyldwolf]

107. I think those such as Scott need to be called out for what they are..

They're not democrats and can hardly even be called "progressive" with beliefs like that!

[chiburb]

114. Subversive, not progressive.

[littlejoe]

173. I call them anarchists.

[wyldwolf]

102. Scott is a communist - not progressive

Communists aren't exactly deep democratic base voters.

[WI_DEM]

109. why would a communist support

Howard Dean?

[chiburb]

113. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Been wondering just what about the good Dr. attracts the likes of subversives...

[wyldwolf]

123. Dean was very pro-labor. Wonder why Scott Lee is anti-labor...

..but still supported Dean?

[chiburb]

128. Especially given this:

"The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers."

Once again, from Scott's IWW: http://iww.org/stand.shtml

[chiburb]

122. Someone figured it out...

See post #93...

[wyldwolf]

125. Post #93! YES! bwahahahahahahaha!

[Bozola]

166. Bad doggie! Communism is an economic philosophy...

whilst democracy is a political one. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You'd think a member of DU would know the basic differences between them.

[chiburb]

168. You've read what Scott's IWW believes...

Is it progressive or subversive? I'm asking for your opinion.

Thx in advance...

[wyldwolf]

172. I don't think he will reply

With anything meaningful and on topic.

[Bozola]

176. Nader!

[wyldwolf]

180. see, I was right

[Bozola]

Right as opposed to Left/Liberal?

[wyldwolf]

192. no, as in "correct."

[Bozola]

174. The last time I checked, Progressive was an insurance company...

Ummm...so what? Next you'll be saying he's gay, or worse, might be a *gasp* UNITARIAN!

Ah...so now *he* not just a "Commie", he's an "ANTI-'MERRIKUN" commie. Good thing he's not gay, huh?!?

The last time I checked, people were supposed to free to think and say (barring libel and slander) whatever the hell they want.

Perhaps you have a problem with other people's free thoughts?


Damn! I've got to be more careful cheking the URLs on my bookmarks. I coulda sworn that this was the democraticunderground.

[wyldwolf]

179. uummm... no... the point is...

He is not a democrat, not a progressive but is pretending to be and is trying to use some sort of blackmail rhetoric for a vote he'll never make anyway.

[Bozola]

188. So you are proposing that we "Democrats" do not reach out?

to anyone who's not a "Democrat" because they may not be one of "us"?

I guess I'm out, being that I've always considered myself an Independent who reflexively votes Democrat. I guess you Kerry supporters don't want us Independents.

[wyldwolf]

190. no, where did you get that from?

I'm proposing that Scott Lee isn't a democrat, isn't a progressive (but pretends to be) and won't be voting for the dem candidate anyway so his original post is just so much more garbage he is known for.

[chiburb]

203. You couldn't be more wrong...

Unitarian, gay, commie... Couldn't care less.

I DO have a problem with liars or anybody that says they're "progressive" when, in fact, they are communist and working to overthrow our entire system. Not make changes for the better, but to discard what we have completely. And especially those that engage in drive-by posts that flame others, or in support of a candidate that subscribes to NONE of the posters true beliefs.

Got no problem at all with people who express their true thoughts, and fully support free speech. Too bad your boy doesn't qualify...

[wyldwolf]

175. That depends on the definitions you use, doesn't it?

You'd think a member of DU would know that, right?

Communsism: A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Democracy: Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

[Bozola]

183. if you want to be picky

Democracy is from the Greek dçmokratia, meaning "rule of the people". A democracy means a participatory governmental systems...WE have come to interpret this as meaning elections.

Communism, in Marxist sense, is a "version of a classless society in which capitalism is overthrown by a working-class revolution that gives ownership and control of wealth and property to the state".

[wyldwolf]

184. still a form of government, though

[Bozola]

185. "control of wealth and property to the state"

To the state, what ever form that may be, such as a Democracy.

[wyldwolf]

189. ...and, in such a case, the state is a communist one...

..and thus, a government.

[edzontar]

153. You need MINE. I live in Central PA.

And its gonna be REAL CLOSE here.

[chiburb]

158. Are you against trade unions? Honest day's work for $$?

If so, never mind.

[curse10]

101. And Dean people wonder why we think they are holier-than-thou jerks?

Jesus H. Christ. This is the most ridiculous post I've ever seen on this board, and I've seen a bunch.

I'm fucking glad Dean is gone. Howard Dean was a flash in the pan. Even less than that. He was a centrist governor from a small state with a shitty fucking platform. His vision was chaotic and his campaign was even more so. His supporters were annoying and their unwavering support made them look foolish.

I'll be so glad when we finally have an official nominee, be it Kerry or Edwards. They are both better men than Dean was. Then maybe this Dean anger bullshit will finally stop.

[WI_DEM]

112. better men than Dean

who didn't stand up to Bush when it counted.

[curse10]

116. there's more to a man than his voting record

despite what Dean supporters would like to believe.

[WI_DEM]

119. there is more to winning at any cost

and yes records do count. Don't try to preach to me that Kerry is a "better man" than Dean. Dean didn't fight in Vietnam which I say is more power to him, but he is also a man who stands up for principles and for common sence and in his personal life is as good a man as any of the candidates.

[janx]

127. That's ridiculous! Since John Kerry is a full-blown career politician--

how else are we supposed to judge him?

[JVS]

135. We aren't supposed to Judge him. That's what ABB is all about.

not exposing Democrats to scrutiny

[curse10]

171. I'm not saying it's irrelevant

but thanks for putting words in my mouth. :eyes:

Voting records are important. Kerry's record over 20 years is stellar.

Dean doesn't have a voting record. But we were just supposed to take him at his word on issues.

Kerry has a platform. He has progressive ideas. Dean supporters are fond of looking at Kerry's voting record on one or two votes. That isn't a voting record. That was always the problem with Dean supporters- they couldn't see the forest for trees

[RetroLounge]

211. Kerry's record over 20 years is stellar

if you ignore the last 3...

[janx]

213. No, it isn't stellar. It's anything BUT stellar.

This guy is a career politician who (typically) speaks from both sides of his mouth simultaneously.

He didn't even show up for the "partial birth abortion" vote, and I'm sorry, as a mother of young adult females and as a daughter/granddaughter/great--etc. of surgeons, I have great reservations about that.

I'll bring a barf bag to the voting booth if I have to, but I'm telling you, this has been a real concern of many people regarding how well he's going to match up against Bush*. And I'm not just talking about Democrats.

[RetroLounge]

210. Yup, Better Man...

He's got the ketchup - just no beef...

[JHBowden]

117. Biden-Lugar is "standing up to Bush" ??

Surely you jest.

[molly]

145. Watching Crossfire I was finally able to put my finger

on what annoyed me most about Dean supporters - they act just like pugs. Yep, they are blatant in-your-face bullies. The tactics and childish games are the same. They never LISTEN - it's their way or the hiway. I'll take my vote and go home - boo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

So go!

[chiburb]

150. I disagree...

It isn't Dean supporters, just the communist ones who pretend to be "progressive"...
Otherwise, I agree.

[WI_DEM]

151. as usual you use your broad brush

like you did when Dean was an active candidate. Too many Dean supporters were burned by people like you, so maybe some of you can carry some of the blame as to why we aren't exactly embracing your hero.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangha]

157. "Too many Dean supporters were burned"

That's what happens when you play with fire

[molly]

164. It's MY fault Dean was a failure?

he did it to himself. I just went on my happy way supporting Kerry knowing that the American public would speak and send a message - just as they will do in November.

[WI_DEM]

178. don't get too overconfident

the media has pushed Kerry up to now--Dean underwent months of attacks by them and while Kerry may be their favorite democrat--they really want Bush--what goes around comes around.

[sangha]

181. molly, you are shameless!!

The way you try to take all the credit is unbelievable! We all know you had help from the media, the BFEE, PNAC, sheeple, DINO's, neocons, etc

[XanaDUer]

187. Skull and Bones TOO!

:puke:

[sangha]

193. Shhhhh!!

What the heck are you doing!!!

[RetroLounge]

214. Wah freaking Wah. Quit crying in your teacups.

It's always enlightening to see the transference of one group's own techniques onto a group of opposition supporters.

Pug-Like? Check
Blatant? Check
Bully? Check
never LISTEN? Check
it's their way or the hiway? - Check
boo-hoo-hoo? Check
Sound familiar? Check.

So the truth is now bullying; it's no wonder some people support a pink tutu democrat who enabled bush* for the past 3 years because he thought it would be politically expedient.

[mvd]

126. That's assuming an awful lot about people who..

aren't Dean supporters. What if they are Kucinich supporters like me? And I'm a Kucinich supporter who likes Dean. I would not agree if I didn't like Dean.

[edzontar]

156. Gee, Scott, you didn't get any offers.

Looks like Kerry just may have to lose this one.

[sangha]

163. What a shame

I was so sure the "commie posing as progressive" vote was going to put us over the top

[chiburb]

167. "commie posing as progressive" LOL!!!

I wonder how many trade union folks want to read some more about Dean's communist supporters:

Mr. Scott Lee subscribes to this:

The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers.

[Bozola]

169. *sniff* Joe would be so proud.

[chiburb]

204. Joe Palooka?

Nah, he was what he appeared to be. Your guy is an imposter.

[mitchum]

186. LOL!

[Scott Lee]

231. I know, it's so heartbreaking!

I thought surely this could be the Treaty of Arbroth to heal all of our partisan wounds. Can we all just sing "We are the world"?

[Guaranteed]

191. Ha! Take THAT, Kerry's beliefs! nt

[LTR]

200. The Democratic Party is a pretty big tent

It includes the far left, the more centrist ones, and many in between.

For you to suggest that your opinion is the only one that counts in the Democratic party is arrogant and pompous, not to mention insulting.

Get off your high horse already! We're all in this together, and, believe it or not, not all agree with you. I'm willing to bet not too many do.

[wyldwolf]

201. one tiny flaw in your otherwise excellent post...

Scott Lee isn't a democrat but rather an ant-labor communist and progressive pretent-to-be, rendering his opinion even less relevant than you described it to be.

[LTR]

205. I didn't want to say it

Since I was trying to walk a thin line as far as avoiding a personal attack, but I remember seeing him pimp Nader's candidacy the other day.

And this is the same guy who endlessly trashed Wes Clark, who is at least a verified Democrat.

Uhh, sorry. Nader ain't a Democrat. And neither is the person who started this thread.

[wyldwolf]

207. don't worry - - -

..truth isn't a personal attack.

He is an admitted communist. He is a member of an organization that is anti-labor, and that fact shows him to NOT be a progressive. Yet, he calls himself one, so he is a pretend one.

[LTR]

208. Just like Nader

A pretend progressive.

Hey, check your PM box. You'll get the gist of what I really feel, and can't say on this board.

[wyldwolf]

209. ok.

nuttin' yet.

[MurikanDemocrat]

212. Vote for Bush. Spare us the bullshit.

[Crunchy Frog]

216. Hey, I was just getting ready to quote you.

You beat me to it.:)

[Crunchy Frog]

217. Well, Scott

I must say that you are certainly good at getting attention. I congratulate you.:toast:

[Nicholas_J]

218. I am greatly amused

When people who say they are either progressive or leftist profess support fror Dean, who had a record for being one of the most conservative Governors in the U.S. having been rated as the fifth most conervative Governor in the Nation by the Ultraconservative Cato Institeu in 1996. He was give B grades until 1998, when his state passed a progressive proprty tax, against Deans will, at the behest of the Ultra-Liberal Vermont Supreme Court. That Year, Dean was rated above Tommy Thompson, a current member of Bush's Administration:

A Fiscal Policy Report
Card on America's Governors:1996
by Stephen Moore and Dean Stansel



Although Republicans tended to do somewhat better (their average grade is C+ versus an average grade of C- for Democrats), there were notable exceptions. Two of the top five pre-1994 governors were Democrats: Roy Romer of Colorado and Howard Dean of Vermont. Two of the five most pro-tax-and-spend old governors were Republicans: George Voinovich of Ohio and Marc Racicot of Montana. The worst fiscal record of the new governors was compiled by Rhode Island Republican Lincoln Almond, who is out of step with his northeastern neighbors.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-257.html

Deans conservatism as Governor was cited as the reason for Vermont Democrats leaving the Vermont Democratic Party to join the Vermont Progressive Party:


Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination...

Certainly the Democratic caucus was never 100 percent behind him and where there were differences, it was around how progressive or how moderate he was," Chard said.

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp

In fact, of all of the candidates for the democratic nomination, Dean was the only one who ever had a formal republican organization to back up his campaigns for governor, and did fundraising for him:


Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid.

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer...


Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

Of one thing I am certain. It is not the other candidates who should be apologizing for their past records.

[Egnever]

219. ROFL

You know I never usually read your posts but for some reason I read this one.

I take it you think that is a good thing to raise taxes and spend like a drunken sailor.

If thats the democratic policy I will take a pass.

You links point out one of the most attractive things about Dean and yet somehow you seem to think its negative.

I would have used those as campaign fliers if I was him.

[XanaDUer]

222. I usually never read your posts, but for some reason, I read this one

There is raising taxes, and balancing budgets, and then there is doing it on the backs of proles and the poor.

Like Governor Ho Ho did.

Big difference. Kerry is for balancing the budget with progressive taxation and fiscal responsibility, not regressive taxation and fiscal conservatism.

Fiscal conservatism was the hallmark of Dean's governorship.

[mitchum]

224. LOL!

And so very true

I too am wary of "fiscal conservatism"

[Nicholas_J]

223. Dean did raise taxes as governor

Just not income taxes. In fact lets look at what tax experst say about what happened in Vermont to tax regressivity in the Dean years:

Vermont’s Tax Code: No Breaks for the Poor and Middle Class
When all Vermont taxes are totaled up, the study found that:

The richest Vermont taxpayers—with average incomes of $686,000—pay 9.7% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes before accounting for the tax savings from federal itemized deductions. After the federal offset, they pay only 7.1%.

Middle-income taxpayers in Vermont—those earning between $27,000 and $44,000—pay 9.8% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes before the federal deduction offset and 9.5% after the offset—much more than what the rich pay.


# Vermont families earning less than $16,000—the poorest fifth of Vermont non-elderly taxpayers—pay 10% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes, one and half times the share the wealthiest Vermonters pay.

“Vermont’s income tax is not progressive enough to offset the regressivity of its sales and excise taxes,” McIntyre said. “Taxes ought to be based on people’s ability to pay them, which means that the share of income paid in taxes should rise as income grows, not fall as is the case in Vermont.”


http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/vt%20pr.pdf.

And lets just have a look at Vermont's entire economic profile during thw 90's, the Dean decade:

Vermont at a Glance

Many families in Vermont saw moderate improvements in their standard of living over the 1990s as the wages of median-wage workers grew. However, low-wage workers saw their wages decline over the 1990s, and median income stagnated. The poverty rate and income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s (see link below for table).

Median family income for four-person families
Middle-income families in Vermont have not fared particularly well during the current economic expansion. The incomes of families in the middle of the income distribution stagnated over the 1990s. Median family income for four-person families was $53,691 in 1998, compared to its 1989 level of $53,103 (in 1998 dollars).

Income inequality
Income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s. In the late 1990s, the income of the wealthiest 20% of families was 8.4 times that of the poorest 20% of families. By comparison, in the late 1980s, the wealthiest 20% of families had 7.4 times the income of the poorest 20%.

Poverty rate
The poverty rate in Vermont grew during the 1990s, from 8.1% in 1987-88 to 9.6% in 1997-98. However, the poverty rate in Vermont in the late 1990s remained below the national rate (13.0% in 1997-98).


Jobs paying poverty-level wages
Many jobs in Vermont pay poverty-level wages. In 1999, 25.5% of jobs in Vermont paid below the wage needed to lift a family of four above the poverty line with full-time, full-year work. The share of jobs that pay poverty-level wages grew over the 1990s, but Vermont still has a smaller share of poverty-wage jobs than does nation as a whole

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/datazone_states_usmap_vt

Lets look again at Dean ideas as to who should bear trhe burden of his budget balancing act:

By the same token, though, he also supported raising taxes — as long as it wasn’t the income tax — when school funding crises and other issues arose that required it.

Throughout, he held a tight rein on state spending, repeatedly clashing with the Democrats who controlled the Legislature for most of his years as governor.

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp

Even the governor’s closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

“I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Dean did not cut government spending as Governor as the Vermont budget went from 890 million dollars in the year he took office to 3.5 billion by the year he left, but again, Dean contininually requested cuts to Social programs that assisted the poor, ths disabled and the elderly, while at the same time supporting construction projects that were desired by the businesses that he supported, and supported his continual re-election At the same time he was recommending cuts to health care expenditures, he was pushing for a milti-million dollar bridge constrction project to benefit one company, Husky Injection Molding:

From the August 30, 1996 print edition
Husky picks Vermont site for plastics machine plant
Michael Farrell
Almost five months to the day after local officials held a rally at a Colonie hotel to lure Husky Injection Molding Systems Ltd. of Bolton, Ontario, to the area, the company has decided to build its new plant in Vermont...

Dean apparently was convincing. According to some published reports, the governor offered Husky an economic development package valued at more than $10 million.

Most of that will come as a new bridge across Arrowhead Lake, connecting the site with Route 7, which will cost about $6 million. The bridge is expected to be completed by 2003.

http://albany.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/1996/09/02/story8.html?page=2

Lets tell the truth about Dean's budget balancing act. It was not Deans initial program that got the state out oof the deficit it was in when Dean became governor upon Richard Snelling death, but a program that Snelling put in place, developed by liberal Vermont Democrats, that raised income taxes progressively, and sucessfully eliminted that deficit. Once the deficit had been eliminated, Dean allowed the progressive tax to expire, and from then on, Deans only method to balance budget was simply to cut, cut, cut social programs, refuse to raise taxes, and keep supporting programs that served the interests of big business:

Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week...

In 1991, then-Gov. Richard Snelling, a Republican, and the Democratic Legislature imposed surcharges on upper-income Vermonters to dig the state out of a huge budget deficit. Those surcharges were temporary, and they were lifted after the shortfall was repaid.

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.


http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html


Which programs did Dean want to cut in orde to balance that Budget?

Who did he say were paying too much in taxes?


There is a profound difference between fiscal responsibility and fiscal conservatism.

Deans ideas were widely supported by Vermont Republicans. Dean is also the only candidate who ran during this campaign who recieved direct support from Republicans, including fund raising efforts:

Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid.

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns


http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

Now lets see who William Gilbert is, and what his relation to Business and Dean is:

Dean had own secret energy group
Candidate criticizes Cheney task force for secrecy
Sunday, December 28, 2003 Posted: 9:12 PM EST (0212 GMT)



Dean talks with union members during a visit last week to Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Story Tools




WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean has demanded release of secret deliberations of Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force.

But as Vermont governor, Dean had an energy task force that met in secret and angered state lawmakers....

One co-chairman of Dean's task force, William Gilbert, was a Republican Vermont lawyer who had done work for state utilities. At the time, Gilbert also served on the board of Vermont Gas Systems, a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec...

... It also freed the state's utilities from their deal with a giant Canadian power company, Hydro Quebec, that had left them near bankruptcy but passed as much as 90 percent of those costs to consumers. Utility shareholders also suffered some losses...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/28/elec04.prez.dean.energy.ap/

Who was it who picked up the tab for the near bankruptcy that Dean's Hydro Quebec deal caused?

Who worked for Hydrao-Quebec's subsidiary?

Who supported Deans run for Governor while this was going on?

Who benefits from Howard Deans fiscal conservatism?

Who does not?

[West Coast Democrat]

225. Dean is/was Center and Establishment as much as anyone else

Heck....even Al Gore endorsed him.

Get off your high horse!!

[sistersofmercy]

227. Scott...

Whatever! :eyes:

[MrPeepers]

228. Somehow...

losing your vote just doesn't bother me. I'll pass.

Peepers

[Scott Lee]

229. STILL no takers! I am shocked beyond belief.

Well look on the bright side; like George W. Bush, Lord John Kerry "doesn't care" what I think, so he won't miss my vote.

And all is right in the world....

[Nicholas_J]

234. And guess

That Dean wouldnt miss the over 20 percent of Democrats polled who indicated that they would vote for Bush rather than Dean. In polls that indicated the percentage of voters by party who would vote for Bush or the other candidates since December, polls comparing Democrats, Republicans and Independents which asked who they would
vote for in November indicated that of all the candidates the most
democrats who would vote for Bushh in November occured in the case that Dean was the nominee. Dean drew the lowest percentage of Democrats who would vote for vote for him in November, while if he was the nominee, the polls showed 20 percent of Democrats selecting Bush in that case. In fact, Dean was not the highest in scoring for independents in those same polls.

Whether Kerry wins or not in November, the polls strongly indicated that Dean would not win under virtually any circumstance.

Kerry, rated in virtually all cases as the most progressive and liberal candidate, the candidate who's record of performance as a liberal most closely matches his campaign platform is seen as being the candidate who offers the clearest differnce from George W. Bush.

Thats why he has been selected by more people in more states. Peopl want something that is actually differnt than Bush, not merely someon who asys they will be, but has little record of actually every having been.

[West Coast Democrat]

230. I'll make a deal with you.....

If you and your cohorts promise to stop posting this kind of garbage every day (and I don't expect this to happen), maybe a few of us living in late-Primary states will agree to write in Dean...maybe

Oh, and another thing...only hard-core Kucinich supporters have any sort of a right to call their fellow-Democrats: "pink tutu, pissy, air-punching little kneejerk democratic conservatives." :-) Got that?

[Scott Lee]

232. So does this mean you'll sign my agreement?

[West Coast Democrat]

233. Nah! I think you should just write-in Howard Dean come November

Or else how will you be able to live with yourself, Scott?

[FDRrocks]

236. nvm

gd

[Castilleja]

238. Good one, Scott!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Moderator]

239. Locking

Inflammatory at best.