What do Al Gore, John Kerry, and Hillary Clinton have in common?

[pnwmom]

They're all introverts. They're all reserved, guarded. Their personalities aren't "out there" for all to see. In high school, they tend to be the geeky observers -- not the cool, popular kids. And this continues throughout life.

So, because they don't wear their hearts on their sleeves, they get accused by some extraverts of being cold, manipulative, or untrustworthy -- even though studies show that introverts, by and large, are more loyal than extraverts. (Bill and Hillary are a classic example of an extravert-introvert pair.)

So much of the anti-Hillary hate (I'm not talking about honest policy critiquers -- just the haters) seems to come from that old high-school mentality. The popular kids making fun of the quieter, less cool kids. This is especially evident in the way the media treats the candidates -- I guess the MSM are all popular-kid-wannabes.

It just never ends, does it?

[Birthmark]

1. Man, I wasn't even close!

I was gonna guess that their names all contain vowels.

[RoveRage]

73. I wasn't either.......

.....I was going to guess that they'd all had sex with Bill. wink wink

[Ian David]

2. Give me your lunch money or I hit the alert button.

I'm kidding.

You might be right.

[pnwmom]

5. And this goes for your candidate, too.

Clearly not one of the popular kids.

[Ian David]

82. Exactly the point I was trying to make by posting the photo of Kucinich...

with his incredibly hot wife.

[ruggerson]

3. I shudder at the thought of what Tweety was like in High School

n/t

[pnwmom]

10. He was probably the same twirp he is now, sucking up to the cool kids. n/t

[RichGirl]

78. I bet he loved the smell...

...of the boys locker room!!

[Clintonista2]

62. I would love to see a yearbook photo. He graduated from La Salle College High School in '63

Someone needs to dig up a picture lol.

[BlueManDude]

4. but this is the way the game is played

and once again we go down the wrong path. if hill is the nominee they'll have something else in common as well.

[pnwmom]

6. Oh, I see. We can never nominate an intelligent introvert for President.

No matter how strong a campaign organization or how many resources they have.

How sad.

[goddess40]

7. Terry McAuliffe was/is heavily involved in running their campaigns

I find that disturbing because Gore and Kerry got such horrible advice that negatively impacted their campaign.

[pnwmom]

8. That would be worrisome. n/t

[LittleBlue]

9. Neither of them won. That's the better comparison.

Kerry and Gore were caught trying to be phony extroverts. A lot of intellectual people are not extroverted. The Tipper kiss, the phony football event on the tarmac (which the Freepers use as fodder), etc.

I don't want to lose again.

[pnwmom]

12. They were "caught trying to be phony extroverts"????

Damned for being introverts, damned for trying to be less reserved.

The cool kids are merciless.

[LittleBlue]

13. I didn't damn anyone. The only damning is when they look

so damn phony trying to be beer buddies with everyone and nobody at the same time. Be yourself!

[JI7]

16. there was nothing phony about those things you mentioned

and not sure what those had to do with being an extrovert/introvert. Kerry has always been into outdoors activities. Gore and Tipper kiss looked very real to me.

they WERE being themselves. the freepers make fun of anything. they made fun of Kerry for getting some bad grades in school. they made fun of Kerry for taking notes during the debates.

[LittleBlue]

22. It was apparent to most watching

that the kiss was staged. It looked totally unnatural.

If the candidate is going to be accused of being wooden anyway, please for God's sake don't pile on being a phony wooden guy. Neither Kerry nor Gore changed the "wooden" accusations by these public displays of "normality."

[JI7]

24. most watching viewed the kiss as positive

and i didn't think it was staged.

i supported Kerry and i know all of his moments are real. not just from campaign but his life before.

[LittleBlue]

26. Then someone needs to tell him to get different hunting gear

That looked so absurd I did a double-take. I can't believe his PR people let the media photograph him like that.

[pnwmom]

28. Well, the media loved it when Bush wore his flight suit.

Kerry's PR people probably didn't realize that extraverted beer guys are the only ones who look great in costume.

[LittleBlue]

36. Of course they loved it

It was a great photo op. It showed him as a top gun guy with a bulge visible below the waste. Gore's Rolling Stone cover with the bulge was genius.

Like it or not, we have to take these things into consideration. No normal person smiles this much or shakes as many hands as a prez candidate does, they do it for appearance. Do not put Hillary in military fatigues.

[pnwmom]

17. But when introverts are "themselves" they're accused of being too

cold and wooden.

[globalvillage]

23. If you've never had a beer with John Kerry

I wouldn't make any assumptions about what he's like. He may be thoughtful, but he's also pretty cool, IMO. And he's not 'phony'.

[LittleBlue]

25. He's a great guy probably

Look, I have nothing against introverts. Anecdotally, they are generally intelligent, thoughtful, and kind. Just don't give the other side some ridiculous photo op of Kerry in hunting gear. That looked absurd.

[globalvillage]

27. He's hunted since he was a kid.

What's he supposed to wear?

[ProSense]

31. "Just don't give the other side some ridiculous photo op of Kerry in hunting gear."

That's pretty shallow. He hunts, for real. You think they can't find any funny pics of the current candidates?

Everyone complains about media bias and RW spin, and then eats it up by blaming the target of the smear instead of the attackers.

Why did Obama's mother give him that middle name? How about Bill's infidelity, fair game? Edwards' hair brush video? Tears?


Want to stop smear, then stop repeating smear.




edited typo.

[LittleBlue]

33. I did not buy into the smear

I don't care if the guy cross-dressed since he was a kid. That wouldn't influence my voting. But for God's sake please have his countless wardrobe experts vet him before doing something like that. If Obama shows up in hunting gear, I'll scream.

[JI7]

34. they made fun of him for wearing a pink tie

should he have avoided that also ?

[LittleBlue]

38. My honest answer: probably

Hey, the American people voted Bush in office twice. You have to understand the people you're dealing with here.

[globalvillage]

47. I made fun of him for wearing an orange tie.

That's one I think he should avoid. He looks good in a pink tie, though.
:-)

[ProSense]

37. "But for God's sake please have his countless wardrobe experts vet him "

Well, there you go again. That's ridiculous, and contradicts your previous point. Rudy is a cross-dresser, and while the media loves him, he isn't getting any votes. Kerry won, anything else is spin.

Candidates should be themselves.

[LittleBlue]

40. That Giuliani picture is being used against him as we speak

The only difference is that it is old, so the established media can't use it for "news"

If he attempted to do something like that today, it would get unprecedented coverage.

edit: How about, candidates should be themselves within reason. Obviously having a wardrobe guy to make you look sharp is not deviating from being yourself, personally.

[ProSense]

43. Not by the media. They love Mr. 9/11. n/t

[tblue37]

76. Besides, they even went after Gore by claiming he had a "wardrobe

expert" (Naomi Wolf) vet his earth tones. It doesn't matter. They will go after anything.

What we need to do is GOTV AND make sure the votes are counted in a transparent way. We won the last two presidential elections, but election fraud stole the elections right out from under us. We also probably won by a larger majority and by much larger margin in 2006, but until our Dem "leaders" get serious about dealing with voter suppression and rigged electronic voting, we can't be sure of a win even when we win, whether our candidate is a true to him/herself introvert or a true to himself extravert.

[karynnj]

44. The phony football event?

Kerry IS an athlete - he played 4 sports at either a varsity or junior varsity level in college. He still - even at age 53 - turned in an excellent time in the MA charity bike race that was over 100 miles(without falling off it). The problem was the media decided that Kerry, as a reserved intellectual could not also be an outdoorsman and athlete - but he actually is.

[RichGirl]

80. Both of them won...

Hillary will too. Hopefully, she'll take office.

[Sparkly]

11. Good points.

They're often slammed for not having charisma, being "stiff and wooden" in Gore and Kerry's cases, and "cold and bitchy" in Clinton's case.

I thought the last debate really emphasized your last point -- the popular kids sneering at the outcast, talking about why people like them better. Although it was all spun positively for them and not for her, I wondered whether viewers would react differently.

On edit: I forgot to add that I love the "policy wonks." I don't really need to be "inspired" -- I want a super-smart president. Remember how Gore was criticized with, "Nobody likes the smartest guy in the room?" I do! It's a big part of why I liked Clark, Kerry, Gore and Pres. Clinton. Wonky nerdy brains. I think HRC has some of that. (On the other hand, I know it's a plus that other people feel inspired by charisma like Obama's, because it gets them motivated and out to the polls.)

[pnwmom]

14. The debate moment that had me cringing -- as an Obama leaner --

was when Hillary smiled and said that Obama was "very likable." Then he, not looking up and barely cracking a smile, stated that she was "likable enough."

What the heck did he mean by that? He might just be too cool for me.

[ruggerson]

15. Very, very bad moment for him

[Sparkly]

20. I think it would have been better for Obama

if Edwards hadn't been seated next to him, and making them out to be a sort of team. ('We are the agents of change. She isn't.')

I didn't really understand the "You're likeable enough." I think it might have been just an off-the-cuff attempt at humor that fell flat.

[JI7]

30. i think that made Edwards look bad

he comes off as trying to score points with the cool popular kid by piling on the one who was not popular at the moment.

even worse because Obama didn't seem to be into it. the Hillary haters may have loved it. but you have to remember, most people don't HATE Hillary. they might have questions about her , not like something about her but they certainly don't hate her and enjoy seeing her get torn down.

[Muttocracy]

35. seating charts

I wonder how the media arranges those. The Gravel video about it is fascinating (setting people up in teams - the debate where BO, HC, and JE in the middle, others spread out).

I bet it wasn't coincidence they didn't put BO & HC next to each other. And the camera angles really made it look like BO & JE were one team and HC and BR were the other.

Well, add that to the media annoying list. I remember way back when thinking oh great, there are going to be lots of debates this time around, we'll really get to hear positions more from the candidates. Wish I could get back to that happy place in my brain.

[Sparkly]

41. I wonder, too.

I agree that it looked like two teams. That was weird.

Other than that, I thought the format was a good one. I liked hearing them speak without timers.

The questions could have been better, though. I wish they'd STOP asking "horserace" questions (who said what about whom in which ad, or why people like you and not her, etc.) and ask more ideological or practical questions -- ones that get beyond the positions written on their websites and reviewed in every campaign speech.

[Muttocracy]

46. seriously

It gets to be like those "so when did you stop beating your wife" questions.

Like the one to Hillary about her not being likeable. I don't like Hillary much, but there was no good way to answer that, or for Obama to respond. They both sounded rude and snotty, 'cause it was a rude and snotty questions!

[pnwmom]

48. What did she say that was rude and snotty? She smiled warmly

and said Obama was very likable.

[Muttocracy]

57. sorry I was typing too fast there

he came off sounding snotty, she came off sounding and looking fake. When my feeling are hurt, I don't smile and pose the way she did. And I don't think she likes Obama at all. And there was a different time she came across kind of rude - some other comparison question but I can't remember it at the moment

But point is, what a stupid question for either of them! Enough of this he said she said garbage!

[AX10]

32. I don't care for the talkers, but the doers.

I don't need "inspiration" from political types. I want intelligent people who bust their ass to get things done.

[Auntie Bush]

18. Excellent analysis! n/t

[sniffa]

19. they're each GE losers?

:shrug:

[wisteria]

21. Yeah, that's the media, immature, teenaged acting popular-kid- wannabes. n/t

[AX10]

29. I am like them in that respect too.

[jlake]

39. I think you are right - and I hadn't thought about this.

I am an introvert - and perhaps this is why I am so drawn to Kerry & Hillary and so offput by the Obama pep rally.

[karynnj]

42. Kerry was not a geeky outsider in high school

He played in a rock band, he played several sports, he started a debating and a literary club that still exist at the school today. His first serious girl friend in his last year of high school was the beautiful step sister of Jackie Kennedy. This does not seem the definition of a geeky wallflower. From the descriptions in various articles on his high school life he was very attractive to the girls at the schools where his plan played, but he usually had a steady girl friend.

Kerry is reserved, very introspective and thoughtful but clearly a very active involved guy in both high school and college. (In college he was elected President of the Student Union at the end of his Sophomore year (the bipartisan club that invited political speakers to campus) and held the position for 2 years in a majority Republican school.

The MSM popular kid wannabees were more likely jealous of someone like Kerry. By the way, the extroverted Clinton described himself in highschool as the chubby kid, who played the saxaphone.

[phillyliberal]

45. well

I've met both of them, Gore formally and Kerry at a rally in 04. I must say, i am big supporters of both of them- Kerry being my favorite senator of our time.

[pnwmom]

49. He's lucky he didn't go to a public school. He had a better chance

at a private school to be accepted for what he is.

Bill Gates' parents have also made that comment about him -- it's why they put him in a private school.

[fedupinBushcountry]

50. WTF is that suppose to mean?

I went to private school for 12 years does that make me not acceptable for who I am to someone who went to public school? You make no sense.

[pnwmom]

52. Fine, you disagree. But I attended BOTH public and private schools and

my opinion is that the private school had a higher number of and more acceptance of quirky kids -- and I'm not denigrating quirky kids at all -- I love them! -- and I was one of them.

My own children have also had a mixed experience -- two public schools and two private schools -- and the same thing would apply to them. Introverts fit in better in the private school than they did in the public school.

[fedupinBushcountry]

55. So you were one of them

So you only looked at kids like yourself and tuned everyone else out ? Usually kids are in private schools because there parents can afford it or in my category where they wanted me to have a certain education ( Catholic school) had nothing to do with quirkiness. That's my opinion and I know everyone who went to school with me would agree.

[pnwmom]

58. That's not what I said at all.

Quiet kids are often very observant, and empathic. They don't tune out everyone else, but they don't necessarily want to jockey for position in the cool kids club.

[LittleClarkie]

59. Not when you're a Democrat and most of the rest of the students are Republican

I've heard stories about how his love of Kennedy was not looked upon favorably. Being the middle class relation of a rich auntie who sent him to school also ensured that he would not quite fit in with the other, richer, kids.

[pnwmom]

60. Actually, that was my situation at my private high school.

I had huge arguments throughout high school about the Vietnam war. But it didn't keep me from having friends or fitting in. Neither did not being rich, like some of the girls there.

And the uniforms meant I never made any fashion faux-pas! (Unlike in public school, where I cringe remembering some of the home-made outfits I wore.)

[LittleClarkie]

61. That's great

But your story is not his. You had a good experience. He, by the accounts I've read, did not.

[pnwmom]

64. The poster at #42 has heard differently. I don't know who's right. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

67. Well, I'll give you my link and let you decide

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/06/opinion/main610517.shtml

This is one of the things I read.

[karynnj]

72. It was both

It was a hostile environment, but he clearly did succeed. He also succeeded in being exceptionally well liked by all his naval crews, where again his background should have worked against him.

[LittleClarkie]

56. I thoughtt there was a private school in there somewhere where he did not fit in

most of the students being Republican to his Democrat.

[pnwmom]

65. But political party is just one aspect of being a person.

Just because he was unusual for being a Democrat doesn't mean he couldn't have fit in.

My son's school is full of Democrats, but no one is ostracizing the few Republicans.

[karynnj]

69. From the articles that was true - when he started there,

He was also one of only a few Catholics. This showed in fact that he succeeded even in a hostile environment. A kid, without major musical ability, does not get asked into a band if he is an outcast.

The naval records include many comments of the unusual loyalty and commitment his men showed him. Those comments were from various superiors, in both the large ship and the swiftboats. So, though he was quiet and thoughtful, he was able to reach out. The Tour of Duty book spoke of Kerry being given two addition assignments that were beyond the job he had. One was to read the stories he was writing and telling his men of the naval history of the spots they were going through to the entire ship, the other that in itself answers so many RW characterizations was that he was asked to informally act as someone to talk to by troubled sailors needing to speak to someone, but not wanting to speak to a doctor or chaplain.

[pnwmom]

77. All of this sounds like the Kerry that I admired.

However, it doesn't mean that he was an extrovert. It's possible to be a non-shy introvert, someone who is introspective and reserved, someone who is "quiet and thoughtful," but also actively engaged in the larger world.

[pnwmom]

66. In large part that's because the school was full of other smart kids who

enjoyed debating and literary clubs as much as sports and rock music.

[karynnj]

70. That's very likely true and would have mattered more

if he was not as good at sports. He also was exceptionally well liked by ALL his naval crews, who were enlisted men from very different backgrounds. There he likely had to work against the image given by his accent (much stronger than it is today from all the 1971 interviews), demeanor and quietness.

[Mass]

51. Leave this type of psychology to Doctor Phil...

[pnwmom]

53. Thanks but no thanks. No one's forcing you to read it.

(Spoken like an extrovert, by the way.)

[Mass]

54. Interesting, given that I am very introverted,

[FlyingSquirrel]

63. They all 3 will never be President of the US? ;-)

Sorry... really.... I'm just surprised someone didn't say it first.

[LittleClarkie]

68. Except that Al already was

:P

[messiah]

71. Introverts running for president now

that is a big contradiction.

They're all stiff and extroverts. Why would introverts run for Senate and the presidency?, that's too much attention.

[tblue37]

74. In the hit piece Dowd did on Hillary's NH win earlier this week,

she wrote,

. . . for the last few days, it was Hillary who seemed in danger of being Cinderella. She became emotional because she feared that she had reached her political midnight, when she would suddenly revert to the school girl with geeky glasses and frizzy hair, smart but not the favorite.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/opinion/08dowd.html

Sounds like you might have really nailed it.

[pnwmom]

75. Dowd is such a mean you-know-what, I'd hate to sound like her.

But maybe gets it right once in a while.

[tblue37]

79. That's not what I meant. I mean that her bashing of Hillary sounds exactly like what

a teenaged bitch who fancies herself one of the kewl kids would say about the "quiet" or "geeky" girl.

[no name no slogan]

81. They've all seen the CLENIS?

:shrug: