Food for thought

[littlejoe]

Here is a hypothetical situation for you anti-ABBer's.

Suppose someone picked a fight with you. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this person told you that they were going to take something precious from you. Something you had worked very hard for.

So you fight them, to keep what you have. The fight is long, hard and bloody. You have exhausted yourself, but you come out victorious.


Now, JUST after you have completed this fight, someone else wants to fight you. This new antagonist is as fresh as a daisy. He's been standing around, watching you take a pounding. But he doesn't care. He wants to fight you anyway.

You barely have enough strength to raise your fists, but this other guy is going to fight you, no matter what.

Now, imagine the people standing around watching this fight. They tell you that if your property means so much to you, you should still be able to whip this new guy.

What are your chances?


See where I'm going with this?

Based on delegate count, the fact that our primaries and caucuses are NOT "winner take all", it is a certainty that John Kerry is going to be the nominee.

But at what cost? And while Kerry is having to fight a John Edwards, who is a distant second, Bush waits in the wings, the "NEXT" fighter, who is fresh as a daisy.

The only thing about the G.O.D. that I admire is their organization. Something that this party of ours needs to learn.

Some ABBer's will continue to say, "Well, if Kerry is Truly electable, it shouldn't matter."

Well, it does matter.

It's now time to close ranks and get behind the man who IS going to be the nominee, before he is too bloody to do anybody any good this fall.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Horse feathers!

This is a primary, friend. He's either tough enough to take it, or he's not.

[littlejoe]

2. A fallacy that plays right into Bushco's hands!

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. "A fallacy that plays right into Bushco's hands!" ? WTF?

The last time I looked, 70+% of the delegates hadn't been chosen yet, so if you don't mind, some of us would just as soon postpone the coronation for a bit longer...:eyes:

[littlejoe]

6. Unless Kerry drops dead, it's mathematically impossible.

[Cuban_Liberal]

8. Wrong

It's not 'mathematically impossible'. :eyes:

[littlejoe]

11. Wrong! you must be using some type of math I've never

heard of.

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. Show me YOUR math.

Show me how it's 'mathematically impossible' for anyone but Kerry to win. I'm waiting...

[Debi]

21. FUZZY MATH

I wonder?? :smoke:

[Cuban_Liberal]

22. *crickets chirping*

[littlejoe]

38. George Stephanopoulos laid it out last Sunday morning.

Since our primaries are NOT "winner take all", it is possible that Edwards could win all of the remaining primaries and STILL lose the nomination. Roughly, he would have to earn 75 percent of the vote from here on in, and then it would be close.

I call that impossible!

Now that I've showed you my math, how about you showing me yours?

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. No, you parroted an opinion

'Math' is hard numbers, addition, subtraction, things like that. Lay out the hard numbers.

[littlejoe]

44. I did. What is it that you don't understand, or

rather, what you don't WANT to face?

[Cuban_Liberal]

46. You didn't do any math at all.

You parroted an opinion of a DINO talking head.

[littlejoe]

56. Did not! Did not! So there!

[littlejoe]

57. Show me YOUR math!

[Cuban_Liberal]

62. I didn't assert the proposition-- you did.

As the one asserting the proposition, the burden of proof falls upon you.

[littlejoe]

79. That's what I thought.

If you can't back up what you say, then you would be better off saying nothing, or else be shown up.

[Cuban_Liberal]

82. You didn't show me up.

YOU asserted the proposition that it was mathematically impossible for Kerry to not be the nominee, and you failed to prove it mathematically. Parroting the opinion of a DINO talking head is not mathematical proof, my friend, no matter how you may wish it were.

Nice try, though.

[littlejoe]

94. Then why can't you prove your position to me?

Because you can't defend the indefensable.

[Padraig18]

95. Actually, you have yet to meet your burden.

You see, the burden of proof rests squarely upon the person asserting the initial proposition. You stated that it was mathematically impossible for anyone but Kerry to win, yet you have no provided a mathematical proof showing that to be true. Until such time as you have done so, CL need prove nothing.

[littlejoe]

103. I have no burden., It's Edwards that has the burden.

[Cuban_Liberal]

59. That's about what it amounts to.

I was fairly certain that no hard, state-by-state numbers explaining why it was 'mathematically impossible' would be forthcoming, and it seems I was right.

[littlejoe]

96. Let's see. Kerry has won how many primaries and caucuses?

And Edwards has won how many?

Let's see. Kerry has 700 delegates. Let's see? How many does Edwards have? Oh that's right. Not quite 200.

And let's see; How many states are "winner take all? Oh yeah, none!

And, why didn't Edwards campaign in Idaho, Utah and Hawaii, when he badly needed momentum going into Super Tuesday?

And what percentage would Edwards need in ALL of the remaining primaries to be close to Kerry? Let's see...Oh yeah, 75 percent.

Now, which part of this equation DON'T you understand?

[Padraig18]

97. Actually, 75% is not correct.

That figure is far off the mark. And Edwards has over 200.

[littlejoe]

104. I challenge you to show me your math.

[redqueen]

113. lol! DINO talking head indeed!

:D

[littlejoe]

102. you seem confused between offering up opinions and

the reporting of fact.

[Debi]

53. George Stephanopoulos = math?

So...does Carvill = social studies?

[littlejoe]

60. It's Carville. And I fail to see a connection. But let me ask you,

Just how many primaries HAS Edwards won? How many has he come CLOSE to winning? Uh huh. I thought so!

[Cuban_Liberal]

65. None of which constitutes PROOF of a 'mathematical impossibility'

Parroting the opinion of some DINO talking head is not 'proof' of anything, other than poor taste in television programming, perhaps...

[littlejoe]

80. Boy oh boy oh boy!

[Cuban_Liberal]

84. And that's supposed to mean what, exactly?

Is that a math language?

[Debi]

86. It means

he can't think of another 'witty' comment so he's stalling

[Cuban_Liberal]

88. It's pretty obvious he won't provide the mathematical proof.

He's had ample opportunity to do so...

[littlejoe]

98. What part of my answers don't you understand? I've given you

the full mathematic picture twice.

Not only have you chosen to ignore it, but you have the audacity to pretend that I haven't given the information to you.


I'm still waiting for your answert, Mr. Cuban Liberal. When you enter an argument with me, you had better come armed with facts, sir.

Facts I have yet to see from your end.

[Padraig18]

101. Actually, you haven't.

You've not provided any proof in terms of numbers--- state-by-state numbers showing how it would be 'mathematically impossible' for anyone else to win. You have offered a regurgitated opinion you heard from Geo. Stephanopolous.

[littlejoe]

105. What part of the english language don't you understand?

[Debi]

66. Enough

To still be in the running....Kerry doesn't have over 2100 delegates - so he is NOT the nominee.

Brokered convention = Edwards...

[littlejoe]

81. I think you've eaten too much liver and onions.

You are beginning to lose touch with reality.

[Debi]

85. If a person doesn't agree with you

They've lost touch with reality? Geez, I hope you're not Kerry's PR person.

[littlejoe]

99. And I hope you're not the average democrat!

[Debi]

10. Kerry has under 700

delegates right now - if he sweeps Super Tuesday - sure he's the top dog...but if Edwards takes CA & GA we have a race.

BTW - when Dean was riding high in the polls (before Iowa) would you have posted that all the others should bow out and just let him be the nominee?

[littlejoe]

15. Where would have been the logic in that?

But with Kerry winning all but two contests, it's clear that the trend will continue.

As for Edwards, he didn't even campaign in Idaho, Utah or Hawaii. A tactical mistake, going into Super Tuesday. He needed momentum going in to Super Tuesday, and instead goes limping in. Kerry is so far ahead in the polls, there's no way Edwards will win CA.

[Debi]

18. Debate in CA tonight

And Edwards is more alive than Kerry - more able to articulate an idea in under 100 words - younger and more appealing than Kerry - Remember Kennedy and Nixon...you are about to see a repeat.
(wow, and I'm a Dean supporter)!


61 whole delegates up for grab last Tuesday...better to concentrate on the larger pieces of the pie..

Edwards doesn't have to get 2100 - just has to keep Kerry for getting there....Read brokered convention..

[littlejoe]

43. Much of politics is about perception. Edwards is percieved as

weak, going into Super Tuesday, from his dismal showings in the last three contests. The number of delegates didn't matter. Edrards needed a momentum bounce going in, and he doesn't have it.

Kucinich showed Edwards that all he had to do was show up, and he could have gotten that much needed bounce.

For proof? Not much news about Edwards this week. Lots of news about Kucinich.

[Debi]

54. Great Debate = bounce

(see math quote above)

You're assuming that it will be a 30/30/30 race....since delegates are doled out proportionate to votes - If Edwards waxes all in the debate (and voters continue to be as fickle as they've shown themselves to be) Edwards gets all the press for the next week and Edwards wins big....AGAIN, he doesn't have to get to 2100 he just has to stop Kerry from getting there.

Brokered convention - Edwards has the mo...Kerry bows out....

[littlejoe]

63. Great debate? Edwards would have to hit a grand slam.

Maybe two grand slams. I don't think so.

[Debi]

68. Why don't you think so?

He ate John Kerry's lunch at the last debate....

[littlejoe]

83. No he didn't.

[Debi]

87. did so

[littlejoe]

100. Totally false.

[sadiesworld]

3. Kerry can take it.

However, the GOP and their media flunkies are going in for one last shot at ousting Kerry---they want Edwards.

[EXE619K]

4. Relax!

The eventual nominee will be bludgeoned further in the GE.

By posting these "It's now time to close ranks..." threads:

You're adding to the demise of your candidate.

But, that's just my opinion.

:D

[littlejoe]

9. I'm not bludgeoning anyone. All I'm trying to do is urge a call to

reason. I don't want to be put in the sad position of analyzing why we lost, come November. Or, didn't my story make any sense to you?

[Debi]

12. So a call to reason is to shut our minds

and support your candidate?

[littlejoe]

17. Kerry is NOT my candidate. I don't own him. He simply is the

candidate I support, and the man who will be the nominee. As for your mind, I fear it is already closed!

[EXE619K]

23. Well, then, no need to....

force the Ham sandwich, when there's turkey!

No?

[littlejoe]

45. And just what am I talking to? Liver and onions?

[EXE619K]

52. I love liver and onions!

Nummy!

:9

[Debi]

55. Fried in Butter!!

I also like liver wrapped in bacon and cooked in brown sugar!!!!

[EXE619K]

61. Stop it Debi!

You're making me so hungry that soon, I will burst into our CEO's office and take a bite out of his leg!

[Debi]

69. Roast in it garlic first!!

:evilgrin:

[Debi]

25. It will be closed

The day I say BAAAAA - rather than support the candidate of my choice.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. 'Call to reason'?

No, a call to give up, is more accurate. You story doesnt make sense because this isn't November. It's a poor analogy, at best.

[littlejoe]

47. Bingo! I am calling for you to do what is good for the party

and the good of the country. But obviously you do not agree. So why do you bother to keep posting on this thread?

[Cuban_Liberal]

51. I keep posting here because...

it is my right to do so. Furthermore, it is not only my right, but my duty to my party to try and stop the nomination of a candidate who I believe will lead the party to electoral disaster.

You have a problem with that?

[littlejoe]

71. As long as we are going to joust, maybe you could

have something of substance to say? You still won't show me your math. Why is that? Could it be that you can't back up what you say?

[Debi]

74. Quit picking on C_L

The math is simple....keep Kerry under 2100 and we reach a brokered convention with Edwards having the MO....can't fight that!!

[Cuban_Liberal]

76. I didn't assert the proposition of 'mathematical impossibility'---YOU did.

The burden of PROOF rests upon the person putting forth the proposition---YOU.

[littlejoe]

90. I gave you the math. You chose to dismiss it.

Where's your proof?

[Cuban_Liberal]

92. Quoting the OPINION of a DINO talking head is not 'math'.

Math is hard numbers--- a state-by-state numerical analysis proving the proposition you asserted. You did not carry your burden of proof: Debate 101.

Nice try.

[littlejoe]

106. If you choose to look at mathematical fact as opinion, that's

your business, but don't expect me to be a party to it.

[Debi]

58. So...for the good of the party

and the good of the Country...Support the candidate of your choosing instead of the candidate I might choose.

(dictator?????)

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. Jawohl!

Dissent ISSSS unpatriotic, ja?

[littlejoe]

72. We already have a dictator. Or haven't you noticed?

[Debi]

75. You are sounding like the people that got us that one...

How about you let everyone have a vote..then we can back the nominee...if we decide to...I hear that's how they do it here in America...(most times...)

[littlejoe]

91. Yes it is, except for this year.

[EXE619K]

16. No, it doesn't make sense.

You think the "bludgeoning" of the eventual nominee will stop if all the Demos closed ranks, right at this instant?

By posting these idiotic threads of "closing ranks", you are adding to your candidate's demise.

Believe me, not all the people feel so "passionate" about John Kerry as you do.

That's being reasonable.

Don't worry, The Dems should be thankful for my vote and that alone.

[Debi]

28. Let me get this straight...

The GOP left Gore alone the entire summer of 1999?? Right after Bradley dropped out Gore took a nap for the summer before the 'REAL' campaign began?

Edwards/Kucinich/Sharpton staying in the race is helping Kerry.

(Right?):shrug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Look at all the free press we're getting.

We couldn't BUY this sort of coverage, and still have money to run a GE campaign. That's something the 'let's wrap it up' crowd always forgets...

[littlejoe]

108. I haven't forgotten, and it isn't enough.

[littlejoe]

48. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful commentary.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[littlejoe]

49. I call it a consistent position.

[Debi]

70. Just keep repeating the words

and eventually someone will believe you

[littlejoe]

73. Debi, I don't believe, after these exchanges, that anyone

would want you to agree with them. They might have to rethink their position.

[Debi]

77. Since I don't agree with you

nobody will want to be my friend.....

:cry:

[littlejoe]

93. Awwww!

[Debi]

33. I'm not bludgeoning...it just looks that way

:spank:

[Cuban_Liberal]

35. The floggings WILL continue, until morale improves!

:P

[Debi]

7. Oh Man...

I thought this was gonna be about food.....:cry:

[EXE619K]

19. Me too!

I thought it was going to be about a great recipe for a tasty casserole for dinner.

Geesh.

[Debi]

29. Need no meat dishes for Fridays

I'm Catholic...

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. Check my Lounge thread:

It's called 'What's for lunch?'. It's a GREAT egg dish.:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x811770

[Debi]

34. Thanks

YUM!!

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. It's good stuff!

:hi:

[EXE619K]

36. yeah, I saw that C_L...

Will copy for laters...

Thanks you!

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. YW

I'm a good Catholic, as well, so i'm digging out all my Lent recipes. :)

[Debi]

64. Made a GIANT Tuna Casserole

last night - left-overs on Friday.

cheese pizza (w/hard boiled eggs on it!!)
pasta + marinara


help....need three more weeks of Friday food

[redqueen]

114. Thanks for posting that, CL!

I should detour into the lounge more often! Recipes - yay! :D

[IrateCitizen]

20. Zzzzzzzzz

:boring:

[molly]

24. Very good analogy

many here don't understand that this is not the playground.

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. Many here have forgotten that 70+% of the delegates are still not chosen

They'ev also forgotten that this is February, not November.

[Debi]

31. And that we have a right to support our candidate

until a nominee has been selected at the convention.

(or are we now the GOP?)

[littlejoe]

50. Thank you, Molly.

[BruinAlum]

32. Ha! They would cheer on the opponent!

[Tactical Progressive]

41. Very limited analogy

Given that this is an almost bloodless contest - I don't hear Edwards lying about Kerry like Nader did against Gore - your metaphor is pretty poor.

Looks like air-time and exposure for both Kerry and Edwards to me, which is good for Democrats. And it's giving more people more time and opportunity to become familiar and comfortable with both.

[rucky]

78. The Floggings will continue until Tuesday

buck up - you're on the home stretch to ABB-dom. people will come around on their own soon enough.

GO DENNIS!

[Debi]

89. Oh, I'm sorry

This is a support Kerry or go to hell thread...didn't you read?

[iamjoy]

107. Sick of this

I am sick of the media & the DLC trying to coronate Kerry as our nominee.

If he is the nominee, I will back him and send him money, but I think he is a losing candidate. Sure polls now have him beating Bush, but Bush has just started campaigning. I don't think Kerry can defend his voting record - all he said to Gillespie's attack was how can all these Republicans who never went to Vietnam question my patriotism. I welcome this debate.

Give me a break!

The Weekly Standard indicated the Republicans fear Edwards more than Kerry.

So, if you are looking for an ABB, I say, Edwards is your man.
If you are looking for someone positive and optimistic with a real vision for America, Edwards is your man.

[littlejoe]

110. If you are looking to lose, then Edwards, Kucinich and Sharpton

are your men.

[maxanne]

109. wow

another ABB thread by littlejoe! Who'da thought??

[littlejoe]

111. I'm getting ready to post another one. Ready?

[maxanne]

112. yay

one trick pony!!