"I will never forgive America for what D.Kucinich went through this year."

[RichM]

In comments prefacing his short published interview with DK, the reporter Matt Taibbi, wrote the following in the New York Press:

"...There are a lot of people out there who are inclined to laugh at this candidate. A few do so because they genuinely find him laughable, but most do it because they see him being laughed at in the news media. In this country we generally take our cues about whom we can safely laugh at from the mainstream press, and for the most part we laugh at the weak, the earnest, the sincere, the emotionally vulnerable. We laugh at people who are fat and ugly or who work as temps or at McDonald’s because none of us want to admit that we’re not the ripped six-pack guy on the cover of Men’s Health, or a member of the Sharper Image target market. We’re cowards, afraid of admitting to being who we are, and we laugh at people on the margins to avoid being identified as outsiders by the remorseless center.

It’s the same with politics. Over and over again we have been told, in a million different ways, that a certain kind of idealism is actually childish weakness, and that the only pragmatic way of approaching life upholds force and commerce as the chief engines of social organization. That is why we laugh at people who use words like peace and community but praise as tough, responsible leaders anyone who’s willing to drop the most mother-of-all bombs on defenseless foreign populations. We laugh at a person who uses the word peace for the same reason that we laugh at the person who works as a temp or at McDonald’s: because we’re afraid of being lumped together with him. We’re afraid of being the proverbial punchline to the proverbial Dennis Miller joke about John Lennon and Joanie Baez and that goddamn Cat Stevens song, "Peace Train."

I will never forgive America for what Dennis Kucinich went through this year. Because he has had the audacity to call for an end to all wars, to announce plans for the creation of a Department of Peace, to question the very culture of viciousness and intolerance and crass commercialism that rules our public discourse, he has been labeled a lunatic by nearly every "responsible" press organ in this country and cruelly mocked to a degree that no civil society should allow an honorable man to endure...

I am a Dennis Kucinich supporter because I believe America’s greatest problem is its incivility, its intolerance to new ideas, its remorseless hatred of weakness and failure, the willingness of its individual citizens to submerge their individual cowardice within the vicious commerce-driven standards of our national self-image. George Bush is a terrible president, but he is merely a by-product of these wider national tendencies, which exist outside of him and independently of him. And these tendencies are symbolized exactly in the laughter directed at Dennis Kucinich. To vote for Dennis Kucinich, I believe, is to vote for man’s right to publicly be who he is and not be ridiculed for it. If we are peaceful people, it is a vote for our right to merely be who we are...."

http://www.nypress.com/17/8/news&columns/cage.cfm

[SlavesandBulldozers]

1. amen

awesome post.

[redqueen]

2. HEAR, HEAR!

Dammit if he didn't just say it all.

Thank you so very, very much for posting this.

I want to live in Dennis Kucinich's vision of America, so I'm voting for HIM!

[grannylib]

3. This is good stuff...and all too true. And if we really do have a

"...remoreseless hatred of weakness and failure..." we really should hate Chimpy and this misadministration, who confuse agression with strength, and greed, theft and profits with success...

[Chicago Democrat]

4. What's so funny about Peace, Love and Understanding?

Forgive them, they know not what they do.

The US is not ready for Kucinich; perhaps it needs to get a lot worse before it gets better. The pace of change in politics is ebb and flow, and trends that reverse after a period of change. It can be hard to see the effects of an individual effort. Kucinich is young; he has much yet to say.

Be patient and have faith in the Republic and the Constitution and our collective will.

[BeFree]

5. No doubt DK deserves our support

Too bad he's unelectable. Really. I wish he, or someone like him, could be elected POTUS, but the political reality is that his election is impossible at this time.

DK is due for a high cabinet position in the Kerry administration. So just because he isn't POTUS doesn't mean he won't be a player over the next few years..

[IrateCitizen]

8. A cabinet position would be the worst thing for him

People in the cabinet are hamstrung by the fact that they serve not at the request of the people, but at the request of the President. Therefore, they are captive to the President's broader overall view.

DK in the cabinet would not be free to continue to call for an immediate end to the occupation of Iraq, an immediate end to our military footprint standing astride the globe like a giant Colossus, an immediate end to the ever-ballooning Pentagon budget. He'd be trapped into supporting whatever Kerry's viewpoints on these issues might be.

DK could wield a lot more power either where he is right now in the House, working to expand the Progressive Caucus, or with a Senate bid.

[BeFree]

17. A cabinet position has greater power than...

...any congresscritter.

And with our unending support for DK, his power in the administration would be even greater. In a cabinet position, being as close to the POTUS as possible, a cabinet member can influence key administration decisions.

Nevertheless, DK will surely make the correct decision, no matter what we say.

[IrateCitizen]

23. No, not even close

A cabinet position has greater visibility than a seat in Congress, but not necessarily more power. To achieve a position of leadership in Congress (party leader or whip) means that you help to set the legislative agenda. That has much more power than an "advisory" role as a cabinet secretary -- even if it doesn't put your name in the headlines with as much frequency.

[BeFree]

30. Ya think DK's gonna be the minority leader, eh?

As a cabinet official, one sets the goals and budget for that part of an administration. Imagine DK as head of Defense. Or Education, or Health, or Secretary of Peace? How about Homeland Security? Ohhh the possibilities......

Congresscritters are punyly(?) empowered compared to the power enjoyed by cabinet level Secrataries, no matter how irate you are.

[IrateCitizen]

31. I could see him as whip in the not-too-distant future

That is, if he doesn't make a run at one of OH's Senate seats.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

[asthmaticeog]

41. Maybe I'm selfish

but I'd rather have Dennis back home here in Cleveland working for me and my neighbors again than to have him be a gelded tool for a Kerry :puke: administration. Though I'd let go if they gave him Secretary of Health and Human Services. That'd be pretty badass.

[tryanhas]

6. Kucinich doesn't have a chance of winning anything.

He needs to drop out and endorse his good friend John Edwards.

And, I don't hate Kucinich.

I would certainly vote for him before I vote for John Kerry.
I would vote for my dog before I vote for John "STEVE FORBES" Kerry.

But you know, and I know, that Kucinich never had a chance, and America didn't do anything to Kucinich that wasn't expected.

[revcarol]

13. Hey tryanhas and BeFree,

There's an "unelectable " thread that you can spam!!

Nice job with the "unelectale" strawman, not commenting on DK's policies or the article.:evilgrin:

[BeFree]

21. Strawman? revcarol

Didn't you read my post, or are you just a knee-jerk reactionist?

I clearly stated that I wished DK could become POTUS. Got that?

[scarletwoman]

18. Are you an oracle?

Kucinich will have delegates at the national convention, he doesn't NEED to drop out, and he won't.

Support whomever you please, but do not seek to impose limits on what I and others wish to choose for ourselves. It's just not democratic. ;-)

sw

[KittyWampus]

7. I'll Never Forgive Matt Taibbi For His Hit Piece On Clark

Clark was one of the most PROGRESSIVE candidates running.

[LandOLincoln]

25. Cryingshame, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I despise Taibbi for that piece, and for his and Amy Goodman's trashing of Clark on Democracy Now.

I still love Dennis, though, and appreciate the fact that his supporters have been among the most mature and civil posters here on DU and elsewhere.

[returnable]

45. Bingo. Taibbi's such a hypocrite.

What a clown. He bitches about how the media marginalizes candidates, and yet he participates in the exact same kind of smear tactics and pseudo-journalism.

Here's a tip for ya, Matt:

You are part of the problem, not the solution.

[mountebank]

60. Taibbi seemed not to like Clark's authoritarian tendencies.

And I didn't either. I still think his assessment of Clark's message in comparison to Dean's was right on. Instead of embracing the "You have the power" rhetoric of Dean, Clark's supporters seemed to look to him (Taibbi's words) "dewey-eyed as their saviour Caesar." Clark's progressive ideas were great, when he finally developed them, but he represented no shift in power from the elite to the people. His grassroots support was mainly built on his electability - that damn word again - and not issues, except for Iraq. I imagine a shift in the power structure is what Taibbi, and a lot of us, are looking for most in a candidate.

And then Clark endorsed Kerry, which is fitting.

[KittyWampus]

63. Clark Was About Leadership (Highly Qualified)

and Accountability (anti-Elitism).

His grassroots was built on people who saw someone who has an innate capacity for achieving excellence and doing the right thing.

Clark called out the PNAC crowd more effectively and vehemently than anyone... including Kucinich.

As a Progressive with a Moderate Image who also had HUGE AMOUNTS OF EXPERIENCE both leading and decision making...

Clark TOWERED over Dean.

[scarletwoman]

65. "a shift in the power structure" -- precisely!

It appears to me that there are alot of people on DU who simply do not see things from this perspective.

"...no shift in power from the elite to the people."

Some people understand that, some people don't...

For me, the overriding concern in this election is getting at the power structure. Yes we want bush* out, but we also see a crying need for some serious institutional changes, so that kleptocrats and war-profiteers can never seize control of the reins of our government again!

sw

[Fitzovich]

9. Well Said

[MuseRider]

10. WOW!

Just wow. I refuse to be ashamed of this man and his stances, I revel in my support of him. Wow! Thank you for posting this.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

11. Amen

Kick

[no name no slogan]

12. Taibbi wrote a very good piece in The Nation re: DK

Taibbi wrote this piece last fall about how the Kucinich campaign was being ignored by the press. He made some very strong points in favor of Kucinich, and contrasted the attention he got with that of "prettier" candidates like John Edwards (see the last page, last paragraph for a great example of this).

Here's one of my favorite passages, which pretty much sums up why so many people see Kucinich's campaign as more than the battle for the nomination (emphasis mine):

When you think about it--and few people do--no great thinker or leader, no Thoreau or Bertrand Russell or Martin Luther King Jr., would look at the vastly complex problem of the human condition and see as the most urgent solutions incremental numerical adjustments of the type espoused by most candidates. It is hard to imagine a Gandhi feeling passionate about a 30 percent tax credit for investment in renewable energy (Gephardt), or $66 billion for Iraq instead of $87 billion (Edwards), or a Community Oriented Policing Program ("COPS," a Kerry creature) that puts a few more cops on the streets. No, the great leader would see vast sicknesses to tend to, gross misapplications of human effort, problems rooted not in numbers but in society's emotional priorities. And his solutions upon taking a great office would be of commensurate greatness: the elimination of war, the conquest of greed, the restoration of community.

I'm not saying Kucinich is a great man. But he does think in these terms. He is clearly an intellectual who is measuring himself against history, not the other candidates. And it is this disdain for the other kind of ambition that has led observers to describe him as unserious.

The Kucinich platform is simple and unequivocal. Cancel NAFTA and the WTO. An immediate pullout from Iraq. Universal single-payer healthcare, a public program, everyone covered. His campaign literature is the size of a playing card. (The John Edwards "Real Solutions for America" pamphlet, in contrast, is sixty-four feverish pages of gibberish.) The message is a fairly recurrent theme of the campaign: The question isn't what fancy-sounding programs to devise; the question is whether you're going to take the first broad, obvious steps in the much larger fight. And the implication of the campaign, clearly understood by all Kucinich supporters, is that their man is the only one who is even engaged in the actual battle.

This is why you see such devotion to DK's campaign among supporters. Many of us feel that he's the only one to take on Bush, and actually address the problems of this country with real change, not just some fancy band-aid "program" that doesn't really change anything.

But given the results of Tuesday (where DK's lowest showing was 7%), maybe folks are beginning to pay attention to him.

[Zookeeper]

54. 'Sounds good but...

...If DK (who I like) were a front-runner, people WOULD demand those pesky details about how he planned to achieve his vision.

[redqueen]

58. He actually does have details.

He just doesn't belabor them while trying to communicate ideas / vision.

[IrateCitizen]

14. As much as I like what Taibbi is saying in this article...

... I cannot ignore the fact that this is the same Matt Taibbi who wrote the outlandish hit piece on Wesley Clark featured in The Nation, "Clark's True Colors". His piece in that instance came off as an immature high school sophomore plotting to embarrass a rather affable member of the popular clique -- almost exactly the same kind of behavior that he's condemning in this piece, except this time he's defending the underdog.

There's nothing wrong with defending the underdog -- but one doesn't have to tear down someone in a "better" position who doesn't really wish them ill will.

[CWebster]

15. Actually, I think Kucinich is funny at times

Kerry is the one who is funny to look at.

Kucinich can be tenacious about getting information out. Got to hand it to him. The dating thing is cute but it makes hims sort of adolescent, maybe?

They may have ignored Kucinich but they massacred Dean. And hell, I'm not about to forgive America either.

[RichM]

33. In the Taibbi interview, Dennis made just this point re: Dean's coverage

...Because I’m interested in this question personally, I first tried to ask him what he thought the reasons were for the media’s persistent calls for him to leave the race. After all, he’s not spending their money. But he seemed less interested in talking about the reasons the press insists on thinning the herd than in pointing out why it’s important to ignore them. One interesting point he made was that being ignored by the press was not automatically a bad thing.

"It’s like being covered by corporate cops," he said. "I mean, they certainly didn’t do Howard Dean any favors… So this idea of having a press corps cover you relentlessly may be overrated."

He went on to suggest that even regularly consuming media can be as bad for you as being covered was for Howard Dean. "The thing is," he said, "if you depend on the media for your life, for approval, then you end up being bound by its logic. I don’t, so I’m not...."

=============

My own opinion: the REASON they ignore DK is much the same as the reason they massacred Dean: both challenged the status quo. Dean challenged it from the position of almost having the nomination within reach, so the media treatment was "Urgent: destroy him." DK challenged it as someone whose analysis was more threatening in theory, but whose position in the race was more peripheral. So the media, behaving as protector of Establishment interests, could afford to simply ignore him. They didn't have to massacre him.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

16. ...a depressing thought.

".... to question the very culture of viciousness and intolerance and crass commercialism that rules our public discourse.....America’s greatest problem is its incivility, its intolerance to new ideas, its remorseless hatred of weakness and failure, the willingness of its individual citizens to submerge their individual cowardice within the vicious commerce-driven standards of our national self-image. "

And if this is what America and Americans are becoming, or have become, is not GW Bush the most representative of this kind of America?

[redqueen]

44. Yes.

That's why DK supporters are so earnest for change.

By sliding further towards that kind of America, by couching your arguments in their terms, you are approving of it and helping to move further in that direction.

Kucinich presents the CLEAR alternative. We want our support of this exemplary man to speak loudly and clearly to TPTB and the dozy public.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Thanks for sharing this

[Bread and Circus]

20. I like Kucinich but Matt Taibbi is a jackass

[morgan2]

22. great article

I used to be a bit ashamed that I like Kucinich, it took a little bit to get over and admit to non political people I like him. Its hard cause everyone whose heard of him always has some sort of condescending reaction. They act like they know better, when they haven't paid attention at all. All they've heard is the snide comments on cable news and the talk shows. I got over it fairly quickly, but I tend to not be ashamed of much. I think shame is one of the biggest reason more people don't support DK. They don't want to be associated with the person ridiculed by the media and be laughed at by their friends.

[nofurylike]

24. excellent piece! thank you for posting it, RichM n/t

[Faygo Kid]

26. Geez. It may be time to lighten up around here.

Never saw so many bruised egos. Well, I am sorry; I have more trouble forgiving America about 100 years of second class citizenship for blacks after the Civil War; about the neo-con rule the world dreams of George W. Bush; about a society skewed to benefit the top 1%, and getting worse all the time, then about Dennis Kucinich's treatment this political season. I go back to working for Gene McCarthy, in 1968, and the stakes were great then, too, and the feelings were much the same. We ended up with Nixon. There is a lesson here. I don't much care for those who think only they are on the side of God, and all others are damned. I support Kerry, and am proud to do so; I think Kucinich is great, but I have made my choice. I will not stand idly by pouting and feeling sorry for myself in the wake of George W. Bush. Sorry, but it needed to be said.

[CWebster]

27. Wonder how many more elections you will force yourself

to say it?

[Faygo Kid]

29. As long as it takes, my friend.

I didn't "force" myself to say anything I wrote here. I'll keep fighting for what I believe in until I draw my last breath, even if it may occasionally breed disagreement with your righteousness.

[CWebster]

32. Might as well pack in now then

because they will get you everytime, the other side is always going to be worse, when will you demand better instead of always not as bad as?

[Faygo Kid]

38. Thanks. Needed somebody to think for me.

I believe I am demanding better. You don't. Fine. I don't tell you how to think, and I sure as heck am not going to allow you to do it for me. Sorry. (Not really).

[CWebster]

40. Well whatever, but you are at a freaking political debate site

[Faygo Kid]

46. So debate, but don't question my commitment

and sincerity, and I won't question yours.

[Sinistrous]

28. What is funny is

Kucinich' naive belief that he is even remotely qualified to be president. What is sad is his supporters' naive belief that his message equates to a presidency.

DK has a great message, but his future lies wherever he can best lobby for his causes, not as president.

[mgc1961]

34. Rubbish.

This statement is true:

"...his future lies wherever he can...lobby for his causes,..."

As for this one:

"Kucinich' naive belief that he is even remotely qualified to be president. What is sad is his supporters' naive belief that his message equates to a presidency."

That statement is an utter capitulation to the ruling status quo and summary dismissal of the most basic idea upon which the United States was founded. That idea is a government established of, for, and by the people. Dennis Kucinich, of course, qualifing on all three counts...in spades.

[Sinistrous]

43. Now that you have had your fun,

think, if you will, about the full scope of the duties and responsibilities of the office of President of the United States, and of the mechanisms and processes needed for a president to be effective. Dennis Kucinich may be a paragon of ideological purity, but he is not qualified to be President.

[no name no slogan]

36. He's got more experience that Clark and Edwards

He's been in the House for almost eight years, spent a few terms on Cleveland's city council, served a difficult term as mayor of Cleveland, and was a state Senator for one term. He has as much time in political office as Howard Dean.

Clark, OTOH, has NEVER held elective office, and Edwards is finishing up his first (largely uneventful) term in the Senate.

Now tell me, once again, how is Dennis Kucinich "unqualified"?

If DK were spouting off some Marvin Milquetoast positions like Kerry or Edwards, he'd be the frontrunner. Since he's actually challenging the status quo, he's relegated to the margins.

[Sinistrous]

47. You are right, by half...

Edwards is a fluffball: Major assets: cuteness and glibness.

Clark, on the other hand, in addition to his brilliant intellect, has over thity years experience in a very political arena, culminating in very successful management in the area of international diplomacy known as NATO. He is a league above the others. His having to drop out was a great loss.

[IrateCitizen]

51. Clark's experience comes from within a dictatorial system

It's not a knock against him personally, but that's what the military is. Officers do not worry about things like "building consensus" and the like, because everything ultimately comes down only to the commander's decision and everyone else falls in line.

The parallels between military service and politics are few, save for a few select instances -- like Ike's role as Supreme Commander, Europe. Clark's role as NATO commander could be portrayed as such, but it is still a scant amount of experience within the political arena -- trumped even by Edwards' limited time in the Senate.

[Mairead]

39. And here we have another unsupportable opinion surplus to requirements!

[Sinistrous]

48. I am grateful that Kucinich is,

in the context of this election, irrelevant. As such, I did not think it necessary to support my statement. So you would have bee correct to say "unsupported", but "unsupportable"?? Hardly.

[Mairead]

52. "but "unsupportable"?? Hardly."

Well by all means, have a go!

Because you can't do it.

[Sinistrous]

55. You are right.

I can't bring myself to waste my time. However, I did notice that you haven't brought a heck of a lot to the discussion.

[RichM]

49. Let's examine the assumptions underlying your remarks.

Kucinich' naive belief that he is even remotely qualified to be president...
- The current White House resident was not "naive" to believe that he could become president. In fact, he was completely correct in his belief. In what way was he more "qualified" than Dennis Kucinich?

What is sad is his supporters' naive belief that his message equates to a presidency...
- His message is an unusually well-developed critique of US society, which even you yourself concede is "great." Yet you contend that having this great vision does not & should not entitle someone to be seriously considered for high office. This is a statement of cynicism and despair. You are arguing that ideals, vision, and penetrating social analysis are (and ought to be) irrelevant for seeking high office. You are practically begging for a leader who lacks these qualities.

[Mairead]

35. Taibbi has captured the very roots of fascism in this paragraph

America’s greatest problem is its incivility, its intolerance to new ideas, its remorseless hatred of weakness and failure, the willingness of its individual citizens to submerge their individual cowardice within the vicious commerce-driven standards of our national self-image. George Bush is a terrible president, but he is merely a by-product of these wider national tendencies, which exist outside of him and independently of him.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

37. Kick for a great paragraph and article..

TWL

[Desertrose]

42. dayam but that is a sweet article!

Thank you RichM for posting this...will send to my Kucinich group!

"....Bush is a terrible president, but he is merely a by-product of these wider national tendencies, which exist outside of him and independently of him. And these tendencies are symbolized exactly in the laughter directed at Dennis Kucinich. To vote for Dennis Kucinich, I believe, is to vote for man’s right to publicly be who he is and not be ridiculed for it. If we are peaceful people, it is a vote for our right to merely be who we are...."

WELL SAID!!

Peace
DR

[dpbrown]

50. Wow. I wish I would've said that

I'm going to be who I'm going to be.

And Dennis Kucinich is the best candidate for President of the United States of America.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[JVS]

53. Is this the same Matt Taibbi that used to write for...

www.exile.ru ?

[MaggieSwanson]

56. yes,yes,yes,yes,yes. n/t

[jazzsammich]

57. fantastic article...

...and i'm particularly glad that someone else is making note of the fact that b**h is not so much THE problem as merely a symptom of this deep, deep cancer on our national psyche. (he's A problem, to be sure, and a particularly ugly and pressing one, but unless we can attack these underlying root causes that enabled b**h to ascend to power, then we're setting ourselves up for more of the same. WE MUST NOT SLEEP UNDER THIS NEXT ADMINISTRATION, EVEN IF IT'S KERRY OR EDWARDS. ESPECIALLY IF IT'S KERRY OR EDWARDS.)

it looks like it won't happen this go 'round, but i'll be damned if we won't see DK in eight years of the highest office sometime in the future.

--jim k

[redqueen]

59. It can happen this go 'round

We must communicate to our fellow Americans how much more important it is to cure the disease than treat the symptoms!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. The longer I live

the more America seems to be turning into one big high school.

I saw it most blatantly when all the Dean supporters were urging us to give up the smart, funny but dweebish-looking guy and go with Dean like all the other cool kids.

[LandOLincoln]

64. Life is just high school, except with bar

privileges.

[MAlibdem]

62. Ever?

nt

[ludwigb]

66. Tabbi is a gifted writer

I don't agree with everything he says, but there is no question that he is an enormous talent. I encourage all of you to go to NYPress every week and check it out.

This column, on the virtues of fascism, is another classic.
http://www.nypress.com/17/2/news&columns/feature.cfm

And yes, Tabbi wrote an unfair hit piece on Clark, but the truth is that it was an honest expression of his anti-militarism and anti-elitism.