Is Hillary Clinton on the way out - Misogyny stronger than racism?.

[Traps]

With Hillary seemingly in big trouble we looked at a number of issues :

Is Misogyny stronger than racism (suggested in the Times of London) or is it something else?

We believe that the "vertical politics" of Mike Huckabee or the "post-partisan-politics" of Barack may be playing a big part in what is unfolding.

Because left and right are not as clear as they once were the personalities of the candidates are playing a far bigger role than they once did.

Circumstances may well negate this for the future but in 2008 they are playing a big part.

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/01/07/is-hillary-clinton-on-the-way-out-the-rise-of-vertical-and-post-partisan-politics/

[jakem]

1. um.. do the issues and integrity not count?

[peacebird]

4. ya think? But some see any repudiation of Hillary as sexism and "hatred"....

they think it couldn't possibly be anything else...

:eyes:

[aquart]

6. No. Did you think they did?

[Fresh_Start]

2. I strongly believe that misogyny is stronger than racism

in virtually every society on this planet, women are the dogs

[papau]

3. Misogyny stronger than racism? Women need a good man to tell what to think & do? -well

that might be a fun discussion :-)

:popcorn:

[mzmolly]

5. Misogyny is definitely 'stronger' but I'm not sure it's playing a role in this election?

I think people are tired of what has been deemed the "Clinton/Bush" era, in spite of the fact that the "Clinton" part of it was rather good. Bill Clinton's cozy relationship with the Bushies did not help matters for HRC I imagine?

Edited for spelling :blush:

[LisaM]

9. I think it plays a partial role, I really do

I asked my boyfriend if he cared about whether we had a woman president in our lifetime, and he answered "no, not really". I then did a small poll (here) asking that only men vote, and only 22% of the men who responded said that they cared whether we ever had a woman president.

[mzmolly]

15. Wow, very interesting.

One battle at a time huh? However, I dont' think we can chalk up Obama's win to sexism. He's inspiring people, that's why he's doing well. And, I'm an Edwards supporter.

[aquart]

17. Inspiring them to do what? Spit on women?

What is it they're coming out to vote for? CHANGE! HOPE!

Deep thinkers, these independents.

[mzmolly]

24. Yes, I believe Obama says 'spit on women' over and over again in his stump speech.

:eyes:

And Hillary says 'spit on the black man' right? It's all about race and gender huh?

I believe people are inspired by Obama just as you were after the DNC speech in 04? As I've said, I support Edwards, but that doesn't mean I don't "get" Obama's appeal.

[Forkboy]

44. Deep post.

:thumbsup:

[mzmolly]

48. Heh.

:hi:

[LisaM]

25. I disagree, to a slight extent

I think there are women who are tired of the status quo of voting for a white male, but are not quite ready to vote for a woman themselves. This lagging behind mirrors the suffrage movement. Do you remember Ken Burns' docmentary about women's suffrage, "Not For Ourselves Alone"? Women were key to the abolition movement, including Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and after the Civil War, agreed to promote black male suffrage over women's suffrage. When the time came for the favor to be returned, it was not. It was an "aha!" moment for me, let me tell you.

[mzmolly]

30. I didn't realize such a deal had been made ?

However, I think we have to celebrate the fact that a woman is in the top two/three. And, simply I don't think we can blame her loss to Obama on gender. I care about many issues in this election, but Hillary being a woman was not enough to change my opinion on her candidacy. I support John Edwards because I prefer his platform/ideas, not because he's a man. That said, I love Elizabeth Edwards and consider her a strong voice for women.

[LisaM]

35. I'm Edwards all the way! Go John and Elizabeth!

I HIGHLY recommend that documentary. If you think about it, women's suffrage lagged a good 50 years behind black male suffrage - a huge difference during a time of change. Not, of course, that I disagree that having blacks considered people and given voting rights was the wrong choice. It was the right choice at the time, I strongly believe that.

[mzmolly]

37. I subscribe to Netflix, so I'll add the doco to my list.

Thanks for the tip. :hi:

[LisaM]

38. Let me know how you like it

I wish they would show it again.

[mzmolly]

39. Will do.

:)

[bellasgrams]

42. Eliz is a bright, lovely lady. I know nothing negative about her,

however, you can't possible compare her record to Hillary's when it comes to supporting women, children and working families. Hillary has devoted her life to helping us.

[mzmolly]

47. Of course not but I can say that I admire her, however.

:hi:

[aquart]

14. What a bent, twisted lie.

You admit the Clinton administration was nothing like the Bush administrations and yet you accept the false meme without question and link them together.

Bill Clinton does NOT have a cozy relationship with "the Bushies," such as Gonzales, Sara Taylor et al. He has, however, forged a friendship with a previous enemy EXACTLY WHAT BARACK OBAMA PROMISES TO DO.

But anything Obama does is right and anything a Clinton does is wrong.

When you look in the mirror, do you see two faces?

[mzmolly]

18. I'm lying? I've heard it over and over again from both Republicans and Democrats.

For the record I support EDWARDS, not Obama.

Clinton golfs with the elder Bush and has spent the night in the home of the Bush family and recently claimed that He and Papa B would be working together in a HRC administration. You don't think that's cozy?

I realize that Hillary supporters are feeling let down right now. But, denying the reality of why she's losing isn't going to help matters. She's an excellent campaigner, she's hard working, she's viewed as steady - yet, she did not win Iowa.

I like HRC, I'd happilly vote for her in the GE if she can pull this off. I simply don't think she can under the circumstances.

[Egnever]

7. yes its all about we would rather have a black than a woman

:eyes:

[aquart]

23. A black MAN.

Discriminating against a woman disappears in the glory of being the first generation to vote for a BLACK man as president. Removes all the stain and all the guilt of sexism because LOOK! We're not racists anymore!

[redqueen]

8. Not that it has anything to do with the results... but yes misogyny is MUCH more prevalent.

[Tom Joad]

10. or is it her strong stand with bush on Iraq??

I cried when the congress voted for that war.
I choked up when congress approved the Kyl-Lieberman amendment for war with Iran.

It may have to do with things other than gender.

[Carolina]

41. exactly

My dislike of her and my intention NOT to vote for her here in SC has everything to do with IWR, Iran, etc.

I am a woman, not much younger than HRC, and her gender has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Her supporters are using misogyny as a smokescreen for what really ails: HER VOTES on the war.

She tears up about what has happened in this country but she has helped us get here by her support of Bush's war and Patriot Act#1! Plus, I take umbrage at her vaunted 35 years of experience part of which is due to Bill Clinton: 12 years as First Lady of Arkansas and 8 as First Lady of the US. Please note Laura Bush has 8 as Texas FL and 8 as US FL!

[bellasgrams]

43. Pleeez, you can't be serious comparing Hillary to Laura the Zombie.

[Carolina]

45. of course not

but that's part of the fallacy of HRC's 35 years; 20 were spent in first ladyhood!

[HeraldSquare212]

11. No, I think racism is stronger, and it's reinforced by housing segregation.

Everyone has a mom, not many have african-american neighbors.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. I don't care which is stronger, or if it is a major or minor factor either way

Both have to be opposed and we would be worst than foolish to not acknowledge that the fight against both isn't over, we would be complicit in allowing those destructive forces to continue if we do not speak up against them. Clearly there are other critical factors involved in chosing a candidate to support besides Race and Gender. And I see no point either in pitting one evil against the other as to which is more important to oppose.

[ellacott]

13. We have had women heads of states before and there still is at least one

I hate to compare because both are wrong. If you look at elected office there have been many more women legislators throughout the world than Black leaders of non-Black countries.

[aquart]

16. WE have NOT.

This is not election to NATO or a UN post. This is not an international get together. This is about the United States of America.

[ellacott]

19. What, What's wrong with you?

I'm sorry, I thought you all wanted a discussion. You just wanted someone to agree with you. My bad.

Wasn't this topic based on an article from the London Times? Didn't someone else suggest that women throughout the world are treated like dogs?

Ok, since this is about the United States of American how many Black Senators and Governors have we had compared to the number of women in the same position.

[NaturalHigh]

20. Maybe Mrs. Clinton is just a lousy candidate.

Maybe "misogyny" (the latest buzzword from Clinton supporters) has nothing to do with it.

[ellacott]

22. I agree n/t

[Skidmore]

21. Let's pit women and people of color against one another.

Way to go! What a way to be progressive. Both are present in society and equally wrong and it isn't an either/or construct.

[aquart]

27. Both are NOT present in society equally.

And Obama is black, not brown, in his identity. Do you really think Asians and Hispanics get a lift up with his candidacy? Have you asked them?

Women are over 50 percent of the entire US population. African Americans are 15 percent. Equal, my ass.

[Bucky]

33. I remember when Jesse Jackson effused about Joe Lieberman breaking the ceiling for all minorities

I think the point of the Obama candidacy is about bringing people together, not the knuckleheaded identity politics you're describing where Asians are only allowed to get excited about Asian candidates and Hispanics can only get excited about Hispanic candidates and Armenians only get excited about Armenian candidates.

[Skidmore]

40. When it comes to prejudice, there is no equally.

My husband is black, my children (from my marriage to a ME man) are brown and one of them is female. As a family, we support Obama. Do you think that people who are truly prejudiced make that much of distinction in gradations of pigmentation? Secondly, there are a great many more people of color in this world than there are Caucasians. Third, I think all people will get a lift up with Obama's candidacy.

[ronnykmarshall]

26. The question that she is "out" is total bullshit.

Same with Edwards. The would also go if Obama was behind either candadate.

The whole Iowa and New Hampshire have spoken the rest of you 48 states sit down and shut up is what pissed me off.

This is DEMOCRACY?

[aquart]

29. Obama supporters do not seem to support democracy.

They support rule by fiat. By mob. They want to stop the count at New Hampshire. Lest the numbers change when the majority of Americans vote their choice.

That's how they plan to "change" America. By finishing Bush's work.

[ronnykmarshall]

32. I don't think that's a fair assessment of Obama's supporters.

But I do think the press doesn't support democracy. They went for months painting Hillary as the front runner and the minute the smell blood that attack like vultures they are.

We don't have a press that reports, we have a press that thinks they are above the "little people".

[Bucky]

28. If you vote for Clinton you are a racist. If you vote for Obama, you are a misogynist.

If you vote for Edwards, you are a communist.

[mzmolly]

34. Communist,

checking in. ;)

[killbotfactory]

31. If Obama and Clinton traded genders and race

It would be the same contest.

[AlertLurker]

36. Democrats want someone authentic.

People look at what she says and compare it to her dismal voting record. 'Nuff said.

[TheWraith]

46. Neither misogyny nor racism has anything to do with the selection of our nominee.

Hillary represents the past. Barack represents the future. People want something entirely new, rather than a continuation of the status quo. It's that simple.