Interesting Question About Hillary.

[FlyingTiger]

As the Sexism Swarm continues to makes its rounds, decrying any and all negative comments about the former front-runner as blatant demonstrations of woman-hatred, I'd like to pose a question.

What if people's dislike of Hillary isn't rooted in the fact that she has a vagina? What if she's just not that likeable of a person?

Now, "likeable" is debatable, of course. No one is universally liked or universally disliked - and it's quite clear that there are many who genuinely like Hillary. However, go through a simple checklist in your head. Think of all the people you know. Some of them are more liked than other, right? Some seem to effortlessly win over most people wherever they go, and some generally struggle to become widely popular in most groups, yes? And some in that latter group are women, right?

Every human being, man or woman, has natural social skills. These skills can be refined, people can become better in social interaction, of course, but a good chunk of the population simply doesn't have mass appeal. This is no fault of their own - most communication is nonverbal and involuntary - but it remains a fact. Just going by the women I know, I can think of many who have excellent personalities, who would excel in a campaign-style situation, and I can also think of many who would not. I can think of many who I would completely support being in an executive position, and some who I would never want there.

So why is it that the Sexism Swarm always assumes that any negative assumption must be because of Hillary's gender? Why does every topic that's not purely issue-based inevitably descend into a battle over who's sexist and who's not? It's quite obvious that the men running for both nominations aren't at all treated fairly - in fact, most of them would kill for the kind of free air time and attention Hillary has received over the past year, rather than being almost completely ignored, a fact that most assuredly can't be blamed upon their gender. Why does it seem so impossible for so many to consider the possibility that reactions to Hillary might be rooted in her own personality, rather than some sort of massive wave of sexism stemming from people who, in all likelihood, have supported a woman being in charge at some other point in their lives?

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. "What if she's just not that likeable of a person?"

Ice Cream is more likeable than Sodeee Pop to me, vaginas too. How about you?

[indimuse]

40. the ridiculous

too funny! I've been on DU all day...not really in a good mood...AT ALL.. Thanks for the laugh. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[marylanddem]

2. As a woman I agree with you -

I am a feminist & I do not like Hillary. I also am getting sick of these accusations that "sexism" is behind
my and others' dislike.

And by the verb "like" I would use the same verb to describe my feelings about the other candidates. I do not like
Romney, I DO like Obama. I don't consider likability a sexist term at all.

[Nedsdag]

53. I'm sick of the "sexism" accusations.

I'm a woman but Hillary is not my candidate and it's not because she's a woman. I have differences with her policies and it is not because she's a woman.

Perhaps she should take her own advice. She loves saying Harry Truman's quote: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitichen."

Well, Hillary, it's put up or shut up. There's no crying in presidential politics.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. It's not about whether or not Clinton is likeable, it's why she HAS to be.

That's the sexist part. Plenty of disagreeable and unliked men rise to extreme levels of power, including POTUS. You think Dick Nixon was Mr. Congeniality? You think a reporter would ever ask him about his "likeability" at a debate?

[FlyingTiger]

7. Ask Mitt how that's working out for him.

Or John Kerry. Or, even better, Al Gore. I'm sure you remember the visceral attacks against Gore during his entire campaign for being "boring," "haughty," "rude," and so on and so forth. Was that sexism, too?

[Yael]

15. Mittens is definitely another authoritarian "obey me"

Fingernails on the chalkboard when that man smirks after a sentence.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. The most effective attacks against him had to do with his masculinity

Remember how he was mocked for consulting with Naomi Wolf and and his lisp? Conversely, Bush was portrayed as a good ol' boy you want to have a beer with. Which figure is more masculine? There is nothing is more humiliating for a man than to be compared to a woman. So yeah, the attacks were at least somewhat sexist.

Remember how Kerry was mocked for his tan and was portrayed as a coward (hence soft and womanish) by purple bandaid wearing wingnuts? Meanwhile Commander Codpiece was shown strutting around an aircraft carrier. Again, a subtext of sexism throughout. Maybe not overt but it was there.

[FlyingTiger]

32. You seem to have misunderstood me.

I never said that *none* of the criticisms of Gore and Kerry had anything to do with sexism. In fact, my post was merely a response to a very simple theory - someone claimed that the mere fact that Hillary is judged on "likeability" is sexist. The fact that Kerry, Gore, and many other men faced the same criticisms disproves that claim.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. Maybe you misunderstood me

I think that while being "unlikeable" may be problematic for a male candidate, being compared to a woman (in any way) is fatal. Pretty much everyone knew what an asshole GWB was by 2004, yet he still got 60 million votes.

You pretty much have to be Dick Cheney (aka Satan Himself) before your lack of charm tanks you in public opinion.

[FlyingTiger]

49. It's hard to misunderstand you...

...when you were directly responding to a post in which I was merely pointing out that criticisms of "unlikeability" are not reserved for one gender.

However, if you want to randomly divert your attention towards claiming that male candidates being compared to women is "fatal," I would have to wonder how Al Gore and John Kerry were nominated in the first place. After all, they had the "fatal" affiliations - how on earth did they win the primaries? Come to think of it, how did Al Gore win the popular vote? Seems strange, given that "fatal" flaw.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. Easy, they were "feminized" after they got the nomination.

The Republicans did it.

[JDPriestly]

48. Edwards and Obama are considered likable by pretty large

numbers of people. That's Hillary's problem. She has sold herself as being competent, and "strong." Hey, if you want a fighter, I'm your girl. Then she cries. That's OK with me. She is tired and disappointed. But, imagine how Edwards felt after he campaigned 36 hours straight, came in second and was ignored by the press. Don't you think he feels emotional? This really is not about Hillary. This is about being strong and mature when the chips are down. This is about keeping your focus and not being self-centered. It is up to Hillary to deal with it.

I am a woman from a family of mostly women. My greataunts were successful professional women way back in first half of the twentieth century. Hillary hides behind being a woman. She needs to forget about being a woman and focus on being a human being.

[Crazy Dave]

4. I don't think her decline has anything to do with her vagina

Voters already knew she was a woman before when she had a double digit lead over Obama earlier on so to think people are turned off now for that reason is just a convenient excuse. I think people are just getting tired of listening to her say we don't need hope, we only need her.

[goldcanyonaz]

5. To not see the overt sexism is to be blind.

Racism is a dying breed, but sexists are still going strong.

[Fresh_Start]

6. thats for sure NT

NT

[marylanddem]

9. Well, as a feminist I do NOT see the anti-Hillary

reaction as being sexist. And I just don't get why some do. I think it is a big red herring, guilt-trip, desperate attempt to try to stem the tide toward Obama...

[goldcanyonaz]

16. Well, it's women who help to keep women back. We're our own worse enemy.

To not see these posts as sexist is to truly be in denial, regardless of who you support.

[LostinVA]

24. Exactly

[Fresh_Start]

8. For the record, not every human being has natural social skills

Autism and the diluted syndromes of autism are marked by a lack of social skills.
And for many introverts, social skills are difficult and barely natural.

[FlyingTiger]

17. I didn't mean that every person is skillful in social situations.

I meant that every person has a certain set of behaviors and mannerisms that they naturally rely upon in social situations - they may not be effective, but they technically are still there. I actually have a cousin with Asperger's, so, yes, I've seen those who struggle mightily in that area.

I probably should have been a bit more clear, sorry about that. Didn't mean to confuse anyone.

[jakem]

10. i am actually partial to people with vaginas...

but i still dont like her.

[eileen_d]

11. "Sexism Swarm" eh?

How long did it take you to come up with that? :evilgrin:

I don't agree with your basic premise that all arguments about Hillary on DU "inevitably descend into a battle over who's sexist and who's not." Of course people here can and do dislike Hillary for policy and personality reasons, among others. That doesn't mean sexism doesn't crop up here and there, however, and this being a site for progressives, it's going to be taken to task.

[cali]

12. the "sexism swarm". You are fucking clueless

unbelievably so. Unfortunately, so are many women.

[Yael]

13. It isn't that she is a female, it is the authoritarian "obey me" thing that gets me

I tend toward the more libertarian types than the authoritarian ones.

Prolly issues from childhood I haven't uncovered yet. :crazy:

[Sparkly]

14. "The Sexism Swarm"

I'm not even going to read your whole post.

Here's the issue: FAIRNESS.

It's about double-standards.
It's about age-old stereotypes.
It's about false assumptions without even bothering to learn the facts.

It's about terms like "The Sexism Swarm" that seek not to understand, but to erect the old strawman that people "think every criticism of her is sexism" or "think you're a sexist if you don't like her." Anyone who thinks that is not paying attention.

I think a LOT of consciousnesses need raising around her. It's been absolutely astonishing to me to see how deep the layers of sexist bullshit run on a LIBERAL site. I never had any idea.

[FlyingTiger]

18. That's actually a fair criticism.

I've seen some argue against any level of sexism whatsoever in certain threads in which the topic was, in fact, sexist. In those cases, the sexism deserves to be called out as such.

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of sexism accusations here have no basis whatsoever in fact. People see an attack on Hillary and automatically jump to, "Well, it must be because she's a woman, there's no other explanation." It's crying wolf, and it only serves to hurt your own cause, because when sexism really DOES pop up, most people are pretty numb to any attempt to point it out.

[Sparkly]

21. I disagree.

"The overwhelming majority of sexism accusations here" are accurate, in my view. It's just that "the overwhelming majority of DUers" seem to be pretty clueless. Okay, maybe only half of them, but it's too many.

There is little understanding of what sexism is, what it's been, what it does, why many women take it personally when they see it. It's not just about Hillary Clinton, or Katherine Harris, or Martha Stewart, or anyone else in particular. It's about all of us, and thousands of years before us, and believe me -- if YOU aren't sensitive or offended by it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist when you don't see it. It's not up to you to decide what's offensive.

This is like white people insisting words, images, or the confederate flag are NOT racially offensive because they've decided they aren't.

I have not seen this "it must be because she's a woman, there's no other explanation." I've heard people SAY that it's said; have not seen it said.

So much for blaming us for it (we cry wolf so people get numb to it -- our fault). :eyes:

[FlyingTiger]

27. The strong, intelligent, feminist women I know...

...who give the same criticisms of Hillary that are routinely decried as sexist on this site apparently need a pamphlet or something. Someone should inform them that logic and reason don't have a place in their thought process; if someone, somewhere is offended by what they believe is sexism, then, by golly, it is.

I actually do believe that I have a bit of decision-making power in this whole process, because I have a knack for the logical side of life, and sexism has its roots in a very basic logical premise - that an action is rooted in prejudice against a particular gender. If I can actually find evidence to support that premise, then, yes, it's sexist. If I see other reasons that that particular action, reasons that are completely unrelated to gender, then I don't make the ASSUMPTION that it actually is sexist. Obviously, I can't make choices for anyone else, but your sentence applies just as much to yourself as it does to me - just because someone is offended, doesn't actually mean sexism just happened.

The racism analogy is actually quite appropriate, because, as I hope you can acknowledge, the cry of "Racism!" erupts more often than it actually occurs. It's not about deciding what's "offensive" - every person has his/her own emotional reaction to everything they see and hear, and no one can decide for them what they will be offended by. It's about deciding what is actually affected by prejudice against a certain race.

As for the "there's no other explanation" line - it's not that people have posted those exact words. I doubt anyone here is that dumb. It's that people are sick of those who see some sort of judgment made about Hillary and loudly declare, "Look! It's SEXISM!" even though there are other explanations for what happened.

And, just for the record, the whole point of the "crying wolf" story is that it actually WAS the boy's fault that everyone became numb to his cries. It's a parable. There's not really anything to argue about it.

[Sparkly]

54. "I actually do believe that I have a bit of decision-making power in this whole process"

"because I have a knack for the logical side of life..."

I couldn't read any more. :rofl:

Thanks for playing.

[FlyingTiger]

57. Interesting.

It's almost like you've decided that you dislike me because of things I've said that you disagree with, or certain parts of my personality that turn you off. But, as we all know, that's not how people decide these things, so I'm gonna have to accept the fact that you simply hate men and are a sexist.

[Crazy Dave]

19. Like I mentioned above

Nobody was crying sexist when she was ahead by double digits early in the race. To think people just now realized she's a female and are saying to themselves "Forget that I'm voting for Obama now!" is pretty juvenile.

[Fresh_Start]

20. actually when she was ahead some of us were pointing out sexism

related to HRC.

So I think you're offbase saying no one was saying sexism was inplay until she fell behind.
Many of us here were saying that much of the commentary was sexist.
And we weren't pointing our fingers only at Fox commentators.

[FlyingTiger]

22. I do hope you put as much effort into...

...lambasting the chunk of female voters who said they were gonna vote for Hillary "because she's a woman," or "because it's about time a woman was in charge," or anything else to that extent. After all, making voting decisions or even talking about the candidates in a way that's a direct result of gender is so very sexist.

[LostinVA]

26. Give me a fucking break

[Fresh_Start]

29. You pretending you argue with men/women who say a woman can't be President?

I've never heard a black say that blacks are incapable of being President.
That they are emotionally and mentally not capable of it.

But I've heard hundreds of women say that about women.

Keep your blinders on. You are part of the problem.

[FlyingTiger]

31. Of course, not that everyone here would believe it.

I've already been characterized by several posters here as a woman-hater, terrible boyfriend/husband, been told that I must hold some sort of latent hatred for my mother, and so on and so forth. The prevailing assumption seems to be that, if I think that most of the "Sexism!" declarations are baseless wolf-crying, I must therefore detest women and think they are inferior. Couldn't be further from the truth. Quite the opposite, really, and if anyone I know tried to claim that a woman can't/shouldn't be President simply because of her gender, I'd consider that person an idiot.

Of course, I doubt anything I just said will change your mind about anything, seeing as you seem to have already characterized me as well. It's especially interesting that you would do so in response to my post later in the thread, which merely pointed out that those who say that they want to vote for Hillary simply because she's a woman are also sexist. I'm not sure what you want to argue there - that's sexism. It easily fits the definition. Simply because it's not The Man trying to hold women down doesn't mean it's not gender discrimination.

[Fresh_Start]

33. Since any woman who has voted before has voted for a male

I think that women as a group have proven they are not as overtly sexist as the male of the species are.

So how many women have you voted for?

[FlyingTiger]

37. Really? I mean, come on, that's not even an argument.

I do hope you can understand how there are literally hundreds of logical holes that are readily apparent in that line. I also hope that you see how it doesn't at all address what I said - those who vote for Hillary because of her gender are sexist. That's it. There's nothing to argue about that. It's the definition of sexism.

As for women, I'm relatively young, and there so far have been none available for me to even consider in the two elections in which I've been eligible to vote. I know, I know - sexism rearing its ugly head. Guess I should have moved to a different state, just to have the opportunity to prove my objectivity.

[Fresh_Start]

42. So you believe that purely by happenstance you never had

the opportunity to vote for a member of the majority?
As opposed to the fact the our society as a whole is grossly biased against women in power.

[FlyingTiger]

46. Who said that?

I certainly didn't. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I've never claimed on any site that sexism and gender roles don't exist. My argument is, in fact, quite different - I'm sure if you read carefully, you'll see those differences.

[Ewellian]

34. ok. "lambast" away..

I was undecided who I was going to support in the primary until 3 weeks ago. I could honestly support any of the democratic front runners....Obama, Edwards, Clinton, Biden, Dodd....maybe not Gravel. I was listening to a local radio drive-time call-in show. A male caller called and began complaining about how too much of the campaign coverage was about trivial matters -haircuts, children's legal troubles, mistresses- and not about the hard issues. He then said he liked to call it the "feminization" of politics. The radio host (a man of course) did not challenge him on it. That's the exact instant I decided to vote for Hillary Clinton....because she's a women.

[FlyingTiger]

38. Yep, technically, that's sexism.

Yet, somehow, I doubt there will be a bunch of posts that essentially call you less of a human being for it. Odd, huh?

[Fresh_Start]

44. Actually I believe its closer to affirmative action

than to sexism as it exists in society today.

I wasn't a Clintonista. But I'm getting PO'ed to the extreme over the BS about Clinton's wrinkles, her singing voice, her straying spouse, her cackle.

[Ewellian]

45. I suppose

you refer to affirmative action as "racism" too.

[FlyingTiger]

47. Do I normally refer to it as such? Not at all. However...

...if someone asked me if it technically fits the definition of racism, I would say, well, of course it does. Look up racism in the dictionary and explain to me how it doesn't apply to affirmative action.

Now, that doesn't mean affirmative action is a bad thing. That doesn't mean it should receive all the venom that normally comes with the "racist" label. It's impossible to argue, however, that affirmative action is not racist. It is.

Similarly, voting for Hillary simply because she's a woman is, in fact, sexist. There's no way around it.

[Ewellian]

50. Well, I don't consider

it sexist. That's just one factor. I wouldn't vote for any woman just because they're female. Besides, I voted for white men in the past 7 presidential elections....and some of my best friends are men. :)

[FlyingTiger]

52. Oh, voting for Hillary in and of itself isn't sexist at all.

Most Hillary voters aren't sexist, as far as I can tell. There are plenty of good reasons to support her.

The only people who qualify as sexist are those who have decided to vote for Hillary simply because she's a woman. No other factors came into play. Just the gender. That's sexism.

[LostinVA]

25. People most certainly were

Posts about the HRC Nutcracker, posting photos of an "old" Hillary and saying women over 40 shouldn't ride on top, etc. It was all over the damned place, just like it bis now. I have ZERO problem with someone not supporting or liking HRC -- but so many times on here it's frosted in sexism -- often very blatant sexism. But, if people are called on it, what do we get? Garbage like the OP. MANY people who don't like HRC are aghast at it.

[Crazy Dave]

36. Very early in the race

Both candidates (Hillary & Obama) were considered long shots because the genuine chauvinists and racists said that America would never vote for a woman or a black president so I'm really proud of both Hillary and Obama and the voters who are proving all those wrong who said those things in the beginning. They are after all the two top candidates currently.

My opinion is that I feel her current decline in the polls has nothing to do with her gender.

[Little Star]

30. It caught me totally by surprise. They don't like older, either.

Disgusting!

[LostinVA]

23. "Sexism Swarm" -- whatthefuckever

[Beausoir]

39. Oh yes! The angry Sexist Swarm! Women are all just angry hornets looking to sting you in your

badoobies!

Fucking sick.

[FlyingTiger]

51. As far as I know...

...I neither claimed that the Sexist Swarm is made up entirely of women, or that all women are members of the Sexist Swarm. In fact, seeing as it's a term I reserve solely to describe the Hillary-based reactions of this particular board, I think it's safe to say that I don't think of any woman I know as an "angry hornet."

Thankfully, my badoobies are quite safe.

[Beausoir]

55. Not for long! The "Sexist Swarm" is gunning for your badoobies!

Sleep well! :evilgrin:

[chieftain]

41. I doubt whether there are many people on this Board who

know personally whether she is likeable or not. The woman has been subjected to charater assassination from the RW, persecution by religious zealot prosecutors and ridicule from the kool kidz of the chattering class. It is no wonder that those of us who rely on second and third hand impressions do not have a positive image of her. I am voting for Obama but I can empathize with the feelings of bewilderment she must have being villified now by fellow Democrats after having been savaged by Republicans. Politics is a brutal sport and sadly she is the communal target in spite of a damn good record of fighting for the working and middle classes.

[Beausoir]

56. Wow. Good post.

[chieftain]

58. Thanks

[sentelle]

43. I dont like her

I don't like her position on mandates for individuals to have health insurance, with no regulation on the ins cos. (Like Romney-care).

I don't like her position on the war. Or the fact she has not levelled with the people about it.

I don't like how she has shifted her positions in order to increase her war-chest. Hillary-care was better than Romney-care, but she abandoned her plan because of the ins. lobby.

And if she were a man, I'd still not like it. And I will defend my right to not like these things.

So you can say she is not likeable to me. She panders to corporate interest. She cares more for the money of lobbyists than she does the american people. Yet thinks that lobbyists (and corporations) are people. To me, these show a lack of integrity, a lack of moral compass, and a lack of ethics.

If these things make me a sexist, then watch out, because it means we are in for corporatocracy.