Dean pleads for help to pay bills

[rodbarnett]

WASHINGTON - One-time presidential candidate Howard Dean, whose campaign fund went from boom to bust, is pleading with donors to open their pocketbooks one more time and help him retire at least $400,000 in debt.

The Democrat who broke party records for a presidential candidate by raising $41 million last year abandoned his bid last week after failing to win a single state. Back in Vermont, the former governor sent an e-mail appealing for cash to pay his campaign bills.

“Most of these expenses are small businessmen, printers who created brochures, yard signs and stationery, family restaurants who provided gallons of coffee and thousands of doughnuts for volunteers, and local merchants who provided buses, microphones and staging equipment,” Dean wrote.

“When these things were ordered, we thought we could win key early contests and use the momentum to secure more victories in other states,” he said.

Dean’s plea reflected how quickly his fortunes changed — politically and financially — in the presidential race.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4372744/

[GreenArrow]

1. maybe he could just sell his mailing list

to John Edwards?

[Atlant]

3. I'd rather he didn't. (NT)

[lurk_no_more]

99. From what I heard he already did!

And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[Anwen]

121. You heard wrong.

Care to supply some proof?

[milkyway]

2. The word "pleads" is slanted. I received the e-mail

from Dean, and he was asking for donations to pay off the campaign's debt, but I didn't think of him as pleading with me. This word makes him sound like he's desparately begging people for the donations. And this is from the staid AP! Dean's request did not strike me as unusual; every donation to any campaign is used to pay bills. What might be a bit unusual is that Dean is no longer actively campaigning. But he's a balanced budget kind of guy, and wants to erase what is a relatively small debt (other Presidential candidates have piled up a lot more than $400,000 of debt) before Dean For America evolves into a different kind of organization.

[EXE619K]

5. I've written them already....

Put up the Bat!

[jsw_81]

33. I don't understand you guys flushing your cash down the toilet like this

It reminds me of those little old ladies sending their social security checks to Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.

[bitchkitty]

36. Hardly -

sending money to Howard has been my pleasure. I might donate to Edwards' campaign (big might) but Kerry will never get a single penny from me. Actually, I might just send him that - a penny.

[DebJ]

137. Hey I kinda like that. Maybe I'll send Kerry my 'two cents'...in Euro's

that would be worth more!

[RetroLounge]

43. As opposed to voting for Kerry

and flushing the COUNTRY instead?

It reminds me of those little old ladies who vote for whomever the media tells them to...

[madfloridian]

53. Thanks for that statement, it firms up my mind about future support.

People like you insulting people like us really is too much.
The media has just chosen to make Dean the headline.

http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~1972602,00.html
SNIP...."Dean, a former Vermont governor, spent $10.9 million in January and $42.6 million overall through Jan. 31, campaign finance reports show. Clark spent even more last month -- $11.8 million -- and his late bid, which began in September, posted expenditures totaling $22.3 million....."
Does not mention Clark debt in this article. (2 to 3 million in debt)

(When compared in the time spent in campaigning, the two are not that far apart.)

Frankly, I would not post this except to point out discrepancies in just slamming Dean on this.

SNIP.."Kerry, who is from Massachusetts, brought in about $7.7 million in January, including $4.1 million in contributions and additional money from a home mortgage he took out late last year, reports show. He spent $7.1 million and closed the month with $2.1million in the bank. The (Kerry) campaign showed total debts of about $7.3 million, including $6.4 million attributed to Kerry's mortgage.

So far in February, Kerry has raised about $5 million, according to the campaign.

Edwards, who is from North Carolina, raised about $2 million in January and took in an additional $3.4 million in public financing, reports show. He (Edwards)spent about $5.9 million and closed the month with about $500,000 in the bank, partially offset by $383,000 in debt.

This month, he raised roughly $3.2 million more and is expecting a public financing payment in March of almost $1million, according to the campaign......"

And why do they ignore the fact that Sharpton is in debt and being financed by a GOP guy?

[LuminousX]

66. LOL... you don't get it so don't worry about it.

[KC21304]

72. If you are trying to be helpful to Kerry's campaign

I think you are missing the mark.

[dionysus]

82. and I don't understand the way people like you

support a spineless waffler for president, but hey, thats just me. You realize, if you're trying to drum up support for Sen Kerry, you suck at it.

[GalleryGod]

111. Those of us who worked in the California Primary Resent Your Avatar

that would be the 1968 California Primary, Cutey-Pie!:evilgrin:
I walked with Bob and marched with Ceasar..where were you???

[mzmolly]

85. Well... not every candidate has a wife who can give him 6 Mil.

Now stop worrying about us and go help poor Mr. Kerry pay that hefty mortgage!

[Larkspur]

116. Well said!

Dean stood up for us when we needed a leader. Now we'll help him out in his need. That's called true loyalty, something Kerry will never understand.

[retyred]

94. The man reportedly still has $9+ Million

Someone is screwing someone, as long as there are easy touches out there willing to believe a sad sob story and get up off there wallets his campaign will always be in suspension, he's only got until Nov to grab as much as he can so the excuses will just keep coming till then.

First off this may not really be coming from dean, it may just be a money grabber within the campaign exploiting supporters, if it is dean he's exploiting supporters while sitting on millions.

The guy is a joke nonetheless, he blew millions for a lost cause and his supporters are still willing to cough up bucks to keep his name alive.

There really is one born every minute!

And just like those little old ladies sending their social security checks to Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.....It's in the kool-aid


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
"The "ONLY" true Democrat from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party"

So I read this book

[LuminousX]

100. $400,000 is a drop in the bucket

and the money donated will be rolled into CFA.

Don't worry about it, it isn't your problem. It is 'light touches' like myself who'd rather give to Dean than Kerry that have to worry about it.

[dionysus]

103. lets see one shred of proof Dean's sitting on 9 million.

I garuantee you don't have it. Thanks again for the cult reference regarding kool aid. Utterly classless.

[madfloridian]

107. Passionate statement.

QUOTE:...."Someone is screwing someone, as long as there are easy touches out there willing to believe a sad sob story and get up off there wallets his campaign will always be in suspension, he's only got until Nov to grab as much as he can so the excuses will just keep coming till then.

First off this may not really be coming from dean, it may just be a money grabber within the campaign exploiting supporters, if it is dean he's exploiting supporters while sitting on millions.

The guy is a joke nonetheless, he blew millions for a lost cause and his supporters are still willing to cough up bucks to keep his name alive.

There really is one born every minute!

And just like those little old ladies sending their social security checks to Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.....It's in the kool-aid..."

Wow! What a passionate statement! It does my heart good when I see stuff like this.

[PVnRT]

7. You're right

He is asking for help to pay off his debts, you know, like an honest person does.

Let's face it, Dean's campaign did not spend money well in the first couple of primaries; they expected to do better than they did, so this debt was a non-issue at the time.

I think it's an honorable gesture, and to call it "pleading" is just another attempt to smear him.

[lurk_no_more]

98. Maybe he could do like CMB did

Give his endorsement for help in paying off his debt, isn't that how his supporters said it's done?



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[DebJ]

138. Ahh...so Dean asking supporters for money means he isn't selling out

his soul or the soul of his supporters.....once again, Dean is different. Another reason to love him.

[pacifictiger]

25. I got his email too

and I did not take offense. In fact what impressed me was he said many of the bills were for small businesses for printing etc. Happy to help these small businesses - the backbone of america's economy.

[DebJ]

139. "put the money in Main Street, not on Wall Street" my guy Dean!

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. I sent $100 this morning.

:)

[LuminousX]

65. Thanks!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. $400,000? Trippi should give back ONE of his "commissions"

or whatever he calls the paybacks he got for spending Dean fans hard earned money on his own company.

[mmonk]

20. my sentiments also

[w4rma]

24. $165,000

http://changeforamerica.com/blog/archives/000015.html

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

55. interesting info from your link

"I recently inquired about the contract and my compensation. It turns out it was a 7% contract. Meaning that if $7 million in TV was bought 93% went to TV stations to buy the time and 7% or $490,000 was paid to the firm in which I was a partner. My firm has 3 partners so my third or share comes to approximately $165,000. I will let the grassroots and donors of the campaign decide if that was too much compensation. $165,000 is a lot of money, but it is not the $7 million the media and those leveling the attacks want you to believe either.

So why are they trying to make $165,000 sound like $7 million?

Because how do you stop a movement? How do you stop people from contributing to change their country? Its easy -- make them think the whole damn thing was a ponzi scheme to enrich a consultant."

...

165,000 x 3 (Trippi and his partners) = nearly a half a million dollars. Trippi has the gall to justify his own actions by saying the attacks against him are really against the movement.

Hello? Scam Arist? Could it be more obvious? If Trippi had ANY scruples, he would help Dean pay off the campaign debt. If Trippi REFUSES - it's obvious what he is all about.

[LuminousX]

68. Can't let it go, can you? There is no scam, nothing unjustified here

And you know what? It doesn't concern you, it concerns those of us who are investing our money with CFA.

[dansolo]

80. I don't think Trippi could even if he wanted to

I assume that Trippi is restricted by campaign finance laws. Any contribution by him in excess of $2000 would be illegal.

[mzmolly]

89. Trippi worked on commission only. Are you suggesting that Kerrys'

campaign manager/staff work for free?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

110. no, I though Dean was different, that's all

guess I was wrong. It sounds to me like Big Man Trippi came in and walked off with a lot of money - but you know, he "earned it" and "deserved it" - pay 100 times what normal Americans get.

He "earned" this money by paying his OWN company money?

I just thought the Dean campaign was different - but it looks like it was just Trippi's stepping stone to getting on TV as a "pundit" or whatever they'll call him.

Kerry campaign manager work for free? Of course not, I'm sure he makes 50 times what Trippi did - of course Kerry's getting all his money from the biggest corporations, Wall Street, and the wealthy - so I couldn't care less if the campaign manager ripps them off.

[LuminousX]

112. Dean is different, but people still expect to be paid

Trippi took dean from an asterisk to being on the cover of national news magazines and becoming a political force that everyone from Bush to the pundits are trying to fathom.

[Leilani]

8. Wonder if Carol Mosley Braun is on the list?

She sold her endorsement for paying off her campaign debt.

[jpgpenn]

9. maybe he should get the money back from CMB!

dang that deal they had going on the wallet of hardworking supporters was sickening!

[Cuban_Liberal]

10. Your belated sympathy for Dean supporters is noted.

:eyes:

[Padraig18]

19. Some people just can't let it go.

They have to continue getting in the cheap shots against Gov. Dean...

[janx]

105. So true, Padster!

Isn't it amazing?

Is it an addiction or what? ;-)

[madfloridian]

16. From Yahoo about Clark's debt.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040225/ap_on_el_pr/dean_debt_1

Bottom of story, after they deride Dean:
SNIP..."The Dean campaign's financial situation is most remarkable because of the record amount he raised, but every Democratic presidential hopeful has been cutting it close on cash, and several former candidates began this month with substantial bills to pay.


Among them, Wesley Clark (news - web sites) reported about $3.4 million in campaign bills to pay as February began, with only about $400,000 in the bank. Clark did accept public financing and will be helped by about $1.8 million from the program when the next monthly checks go out Monday.

This is not an issue to deride others about.

[xultar]

52. I think the poster was on your side. I don't think they were insulting

you or Dean. CMB shouldn't have taken a consulting paycheck from the Dean campaign.

[Jai4WKC08]

129. On Clark's debt

The article is not taking into account the federal matching funds that were withheld until April, nor for that matter any debt incurred after Feb 1. So really, those figures are meaningless.

We're told the debt is about $150K.

[LuminousX]

75. It was a good deal, not unwarranted at all.

[Adelante]

11. Nothing wrong with it

I'm happy to help Wes Clark pay off his debt. I would expect Dean supporters to feel similarly. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am, since his supporters have been devoted to him all along.

[spooky3]

18. I'm sure he'll have no trouble in raising it and honoring all

his promises.

[milkyway]

12. Why is the media so focused on the finances of Dean's campaign?

It almost seems like they're gloating, subtly hinting that it was a waste of money for ordinary people to send donations to Dean. Next time, leave campaign financing to the big boys! Yes, Dean raised a lot and spent a lot, but most every campaign ends up in debt. What's the big fucking deal?

[madfloridian]

14. Yahoo says Clark about 3 million in debt.

Will get some matching funds, but still not that much.

[slinkerwink]

26. 3 million?!@?!

[madfloridian]

28. According to Yahoo, have not researched it myself.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040225/ap_on_el_pr/dean_debt_1

SNIP...."The Dean campaign's financial situation is most remarkable because of the record amount he raised, but every Democratic presidential hopeful has been cutting it close on cash, and several former candidates began this month with substantial bills to pay.


Among them, Wesley Clark (news - web sites) reported about $3.4 million in campaign bills to pay as February began, with only about $400,000 in the bank. Clark did accept public financing and will be helped by about $1.8 million from the program when the next monthly checks go out Monday.

I was surprised at this, because the media only talks about the Dean debt as though it were something shameful.

Kerry and Edwards were barely solvent last month.

[Edwards4President]

51. Perhaps because the Dean campaign made such a big deal of it

when they were in high cotton.

[LuminousX]

76. Then they should be focused on how little 400,000 really is in this case

especially when budgets were in the tens of millions.

[madfloridian]

13. According to WP Kerry and Edwards barely solvent end of January.

This is not uncommon. I believe Kerry's debt is in the millions, will be retired by the DNC I understand.

[chiburb]

15. So why not a fundraiser?

Ala Farm Aid? Didn't Dr. Dean's huge following include at least some bands,actors, etc.? I'd also like to see ALL Democrats kick in a buck or two as a thank you to him. He not only showed that a Dem could stand up to BushCo, but for a Dem to beat BushCo it was REQUIRED!

[Nicholas_J]

17. This is rather normal

A lot of the costs for Dean campaign are contrcted to not come in uintil after he wins or after drops out. Its like that with almost all camapaigns. The only thing that requires the money up front are the T.V. commercials. It is common for candidates to owe a lot of money even after winning the election.

[KittyWampus]

21. Wasn't Doesn't Trippi Kick Back Some Of The Money He Made Off Ads?

I am serious.

[w4rma]

27. Because he didn't make out like the smear artists say he did.

$165,000

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. but Trippi made out JUST FINE - with probably millions of dollars

165,000 per ad - plus that much for each of his two parters - they spent 20 million? on ads?

[LuminousX]

77. You say 20 million?

At 7% divided by three... I believe that is about $470,000.

So, How much did Trippi make out with again... millions? Doubtful, really, really doubtful.

[dionysus]

83. thats not PER ad!!

why do you distort so?

[mzmolly]

90. Do show me the precident that suggests this idea is a good one.

If your employer goes into debt, are YOU willing to pay him back for your work? Ridiculous assertion on your part.

[turnhardleft]

22. Why not sell it to Kerry?

That way everyone wins. He can refinance his house in a couploe of years when it is worth more. I just had the bank forclose on mine.

[JI7]

23. lieberman

i remember lieberman was in debt also but he got federal funds so waited to drop out until he got those funds to pay off the debt.

[madfloridian]

29. More on ALL candidates' campaign debt.

The media has just chosen to make Dean the headline.

http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~1972602,00.html
SNIP...."Dean, a former Vermont governor, spent $10.9 million in January and $42.6 million overall through Jan. 31, campaign finance reports show. Clark spent even more last month -- $11.8 million -- and his late bid, which began in September, posted expenditures totaling $22.3 million....."
Does not mention Clark debt in this article.

(When compared in the time spent in campaigning, the two are not that far apart.)

Frankly, I would not post this except to point out discrepancies in just slamming Dean on this.

SNIP.."Kerry, who is from Massachusetts, brought in about $7.7 million in January, including $4.1 million in contributions and additional money from a home mortgage he took out late last year, reports show. He spent $7.1 million and closed the month with $2.1million in the bank. The (Kerry) campaign showed total debts of about $7.3 million, including $6.4 million attributed to Kerry's mortgage.

So far in February, Kerry has raised about $5 million, according to the campaign.

Edwards, who is from North Carolina, raised about $2 million in January and took in an additional $3.4 million in public financing, reports show. He (Edwards)spent about $5.9 million and closed the month with about $500,000 in the bank, partially offset by $383,000 in debt.

This month, he raised roughly $3.2 million more and is expecting a public financing payment in March of almost $1million, according to the campaign......"

[ShaneGR]

30. That's nothing, Clark ended his campaign about 2-3 million in debt

Don't blame me, his wife talked him into staying another week.

[SEAburb]

101. link?!

>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<

[dkf]

31. Dean is the only Pres candidate who will get my $.

Sent him $100 today. When he emerges and I revitalize again I'll give him some more.

I miss him so much already. He needs a radio talk show or something maybe on Al Gore's new venture! He'd be FANTASTIC at it and I bet he'd be a hoot to listen to. Heck I'd even PAY to listen.

Please oh Please Al Gore!

[NashVegas]

127. I'll Be Helping Out

If not with the next paycheck, then mid-March.

[jsw_81]

32. Those little orange hats sure were expensive, weren't they?

If Dean had been a real fiscal conservative he wouldn't be in this mess.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jsw_81]

37. A jerk?

Just because I pointed out how Dean blew $40 million? Whatever.

[CWebster]

38. Maybe you need to take a look at how Kerry raises his:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x400447

[indigo32]

40. oh you joked about the orange hats to be NICE????

whatever is right.

[RetroLounge]

44. If the orange hat fits...

eom

[NNN0LHI]

48. Please. I hate to keep repeating this, but we are on an anonymous board

None of us know who the poster supports beyond slapping a sig line up and being a general pain in the ass. Most posters here are like me and wouldn't say shit about this if we had a mouth full. Just think about who you are angry at here. Is it the poster, or the name in the persons sig line who would never approve of such crap coming from his supporters. At least his adult supporters anyway. Peace.

Don

[LizW]

50. Please, indeed

What I know about this poster from reading many, many of his/her posts over the past weeks or months is that he/she takes every opportunity to be nasty to non-Kerry supporters. And you're right, 99.9% of the time, I wouldn't say shit about this. But every once in a while, it just gets so damn old that I feel like calling a jerk a jerk.

[RetroLounge]

46. Another Kerry supporter that makes sure I give zero

to Senator Botox...

[edzontar]

74. They are their own worst enemies.

How did Sen. Kerry manage to attract such a band of mean-spirited, intolerant people?

[mitchum]

78. Because he has broad support?

That would seem to be the obvious answer

[Phelan]

79. Wait a minute

I've never done this before, defended Dean that is...but if Dean is practicing bad fiscal policy, what do you call that whole thing with the Kerry campaign $6,000,000 in debt? How is he running around saying he will fix the deficit and he can't even run a campaign without creating a huge deficit?

And yeah he will get the money back when he wins the nomination,
but guess what Dean would have too if he had won the nomination.

Its also interesting how the two candidates that have spend the most of their own personal funds (Kerry and Edwards) are our remaining front runners...talking about buying the presidency...jeez...

[mzmolly]

91. Wasn't Kerry in a much larger *MESS?* Yes, I do believe....

he was in a 6 million dollar mess not long ago. And, were it not for his wealthy wife, he'd have been right behind Mr. Graham in delivering concession speeches.

[Missy Vixen]

133. Campaign financing

>If Dean had been a real fiscal conservative he wouldn't be in this mess.<

Do you have the slightest idea of how much it costs to mount a presidential campaign? I realize that it's much more fun to take shots at Dean, but the facts that remain are these: $41 million was a drop in the bucket for nationwide office space, venue space for rallies, rental fees, airfares, hotel rooms, on and on and on and on. Why do you think that * is raising $200 million?

Do you think that it was smart for Kerry to mortgage his house to raise campaign funds? If he were a "real fiscal conservative," why wasn't he raising money for his campaign a long time ago? He's still evidently not seeing the financial numbers he wanted, but he'll be bailed out by the DNC, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Here's another head-scratcher for you: How much do you think it costs to mount a campaign for local office, for instance, city councilperson? We live in a town of 5500. My campaign (earlier this year,) cost just under $2500. That was yard signs, buttons, mailing list purchase, postage, mailing fees (including a $150.00 bulk mailing permit,) printing costs and not a lot more. One of my (Republican) colleagues spent over $6,000. This was for an office paying the princely sum of $250.00 per month.

I talked with Rep. Laura Ruderman during my campaign. She raises $250,000 when she campaigns for her current position. I believe state representatives are paid about $30,000 per year. She also doorbells the 20,000 houses in her district. All of them.

If my piddly little campaign could spend $2,500, it doesn't shock me at all that a nationwide campaign could burn through $41 million. I suppose this doesn't make me a "fiscal conservative," either.

Julie

[DebJ]

140. or he could have married well, huh?

[quaker bill]

34. And I will provide it.

It is simply the right thing to do.

[THUNDER HANDS]

39. maybe Dean should sell his house

Like Kerry did, instead of making his supporters foot the bill for Dean's financial mismanagement.

[Vernunft II]

41. Nobody should loose his home over an attempt to

do something for his nation. Regardless where you stand, you have to hand that much to every candidate.

[CWebster]

45. Time to talk about Kerry's money..

"Before Kerry closed the account some time before the end of 2002, the Citizen Soldier Fund raised approximately $1.35 million in soft money, thanks mainly to a series of big checks written by some of his long-time patrons. The largest donor to the Fund was Miami lawyer Milton Ferrell, who gave $59,000. Other big givers included the CEO of Boston Capital, John P. Manning, who contributed $55,000, International Data Group chairman Patrick J. McGovern ($50,000) and the American International Group, Inc. ($30,000). The committee spent nearly $1.3 million, which was virtually everything that it raised. Though its stated aim was to help the Democrats across the country, two-thirds of the soft money contributed to the Citizen Soldier Fund was channeled to its federal account and to candidates in a handful of states, among them Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. Records show that the non-federal committee distributed close to $147,000 in Iowa, more than $120,000 in New Hampshire and $58,000 in South Carolina. It spent $89,000 in Florida, the state that decided the last presidential election. In addition, Kerry's committee made big contributions to a pair of Senate colleagues who were facing tough re-election campaigns: $181,000 went to Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota, who won his race, and more than $81,000 Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, who lost.

The purpose of Kerry's playing "Good Samaritan" was purely political. It's no coincidence that he doled out a quarter of the money raised through the soft money account in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, the early primary and caucus states that can make or break a presidential campaign. Understandably, he needed allies there, and the senator —like some of his presidential opponents —was using the PAC money to help build support for the campaign. Nonetheless, Kerry's distribution of campaign cash across the country is seemingly at odds with his oft-stated position on campaign finance reform, which early on graced his Web site: "Elections must be more than auctions, and money must no longer drown out the role of citizens in our democracy."



http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/report.aspx?aid=189

[LuminousX]

62. LOL.. you have no clue about campaigning do you

Mortgaging a house is the bizarre abnormality in an election, usually a candidate can get others to donate money. Dean's getting more of mine. Far better I help him get out of debt than pay off Kerry's mortgage.

[dionysus]

84. Thats truly ridiculous.

Using that crap logic, if Kerry loses to * he should be bankrupted and sent to debtors prison.

[Larkspur]

147. Dean's home is only worth $220,000, Kerry's mansion was double $6.4 mil

unless of course the value was hyped to get him more money for his campaign.

And anyway, those of us who signed the statement last year, OKing Dean to opt out of FEC matching funds, have a responsibility to help Dean out, and I don't mind it one bit. When I donate to Dean, I give the finger to Kerry.

[seaglass]

42. His debt was obviously greater than 400,000. He asked

for 700,000 for his last hurrah in WI, raised 1.4 mil, spent less than 300,000 on air time. Even Dean supporters on his blog and Trippi's are questioning where the money went. Too bad Dean can't be forthright on this, but then again, it's keeping with his character.

[RetroLounge]

47. Poop

eom

[seaglass]

49. LOL. n/t

[LuminousX]

69. Doubtful

[andym]

54. Even Clinton was in debt in 1992

Even Clinton was in debt in 1992 at times. It is the rule rather than the exception. Dean is in the same boat with almost all serious contenders.

Btw, one of the few exceptions, a campaign that stayed in the black the whole campaign right into the convention was that of Jerry Brown in 1992. Brown was another frugal governor who wanted to take back the country and ran a grassroots campaign.

[Zomby Woof]

57. so much for fiscal responsibility

:hurts: All of Mom and Dad's college money, down the crapper!

[CWebster]

59. Were Kucinich to appeal to Dean supporters

on the basis of the issues alone, I don't think he would appreciate how difficult you make that job for him. If you really support Kucinich and hope he gains momentum, I suggest you check yourself.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

70. May you reap what you sow

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

81. Hahahaha!!!

My ideals and morals are still higher than that of Dean or his supporters. Much higher. ;-)

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

95. !

:wow:

:(

[indigo32]

106. LOLOL

sure could have fooled me.

[salin]

108. well.. ya... i heard your mamma wears combat boots?!?!

sorta the tone of this little exchange.

Again this whole silly thread - just cracks me up... Ya'll can find reasons to fight over the stupidest stuff. (Debt retirement... reality of nearly all statewide and national campaigns... but...)

Its not really an issue... but I think I'll make it a bludgeon... hehe

Fine... I'll see that bludgeon and add a nail to it...hehe

observer: when did I stumble into the kindergarten class?

[indigo32]

109. when did I stumble into the kindergarten class?

when ya stumbled into GD2004

:hi: Salin

[Anwen]

122. You must be high

to say something so...laughable!

[Missy Vixen]

135. Gosh, thanks, Zomby

>My ideals and morals are still higher than that of Dean or his supporters. Much higher. ;-)<

I don't like what you've said, Zomby. Was it meant to hurt?

This, without a doubt, is the most egregious personal attack I've ever seen on DU.

Julie

[Cassandra]

92. Some of "they" are us

Zomby, you really should be ashamed of yourself, and if Kucinich could read what you just wrote, he would be ashamed of you. Your reaction is so over the top for something that's no big deal.

[LuminousX]

64. Name a candidate who doesn't have some debt after a campaign

$400,000 is a trifling amount when he was dealing with a budget in the tens of millions. Don't fret about it, this wasn't a message to you, this was a message to me and other Dean supporters who have been making inquiries about how much debt he has so we could help pay it off.

[dionysus]

86. methinks thou dost protest too much

If Silver Spoon Kerry didn't have a 6 million dollar house to mortgage he would have spent himself out of the race before iowa.

400 grand in the case of a campaign debt is chump change. I know, I know, you have to get your daily insults in on Dean and his supporters. does it make you feel 'big'?

[NNN0LHI]

58. If you don't end up in debt you were not trying hard enough

All the frontrunner's end up in debt.

Don

[LuminousX]

60. He's getting another $125 from me this friday

[twilight]

61. Dean .... you shot the wad and now ...

now you want financial help!? What a jerk Dean is. I never supported him anyway, but now I am glad he is out of the race.

Where did all of those big bucks go Howie? In your pocket perhaps?

Go on back to Vermont and beg where even there you aren't so popular! :grr: :grr:

:dem: :kick:

[LuminousX]

63. Well, Dean's message was to me, not you.

I'm the type of supporter who was asking what his debt was so I could help pay it off. I was in for a penny, in for a pound. I believe his organization will continue to reshape American politics. Your snide comments are noted, though, and I hope you reap what you sow.

[dionysus]

88. um, most people who run serious campaigns end up owing money

just gotta get that hate in on Dean, eh?

[salin]

73. sorry, but there are times when ya'll crack me up.

Debt retirement is a part of almost every major (statewide and federal) campaign. One part of the normal cycle.

Sheez, the ability of this forum - about all candidates - to make a major issue (and have lots of folks jump in to poke sticks in eyes, and encourage those whose eyes got stuck to do the same back) - out of the mundane... never amazes me.

On the one hand, I guess it is one way to learn about the normal election process (including issues like campaign debt retirement - which occurs as the final/post campaign phase of most races)... even if one demonstrates either spite, or ignorance, in the process of that learning.

[mzmolly]

93. Lets hope people are *learning*

;)

[redqueen]

97. There is obviously a lot of emoting being done

I'm not surprised and have done it myself. It's hard to be involved in this and not get invested. It's hard not to have an emotional reaction to these situations sometimes.

And nobody likes being exposed as ignorant of anything. It's a very human trait, albeit a very bad one. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. It's important that we all try to educate our peers without resorting to actively trying to make that person feel less worthy because they were ignorant of some fact or other.

Just my .02

[BruinAlum]

102. Thank you

[redqueen]

96. This is really strange

On NPR last night, they were discussing this 'issue' and reported that John Glenn (?) still has over a million in debt from his run in 84!

So why is this being discussed again? :shrug:

[salin]

104. are we ready for a RRRRRRRRRRRRumble???????

Just my opinion of why this is being discussed as a issue ... ;-)

[redqueen]

120. You're probably right

Schoolyard crap.

:hi:

[chiburb]

113. Let him ask the Communists...

At DU who are among his most ardent and vocal supporters...

Oh! Wait! They don't have any $$$ because this is what they believe:

Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."

It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.

Source: http://iww.org/stand.shtml

[dionysus]

114. What the hell are you smoking?

Dean is the communist candidate? WTF?

Anyone, does this guy make a bit of sense?

[chiburb]

115. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=401759&mesg_id=402133&page=

[chiburb]

117. Or do you like this one better?

""The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers."

Once again, from one of the most ardent Dean supporters on DU. And I thought Dean was strong-union...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

143. What crap - the IWW never endorsed Dean, and are anti-Communists

What are you talking about? First of all, the IWW is anti-communist, and NEVER supported Dean. So what is your point exactly?

[chiburb]

145. Yeah right...

This is anti-communist?

"Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wages for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system."
It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for the every-day struggle with the capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old."

As for Dean, you're right; they don't support political parties at all.

Further, see my post #142. Or, if you care to know what started this, pm me. I'm done here.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

146. "abolition of the wage system" - everyone should be a shareholder!

Perhaps if you knew anything about the IWW and the history of one of America's oldest labor unions, it might be worth having this discussion. I'm obviously wasting my time.

[wyldwolf]

118. one of DU's more notorious commies adores Howard Dean

Pro-labor Howard Dean is support by an anti-labor communist. Why?

[chiburb]

119. I don't know, but I wonder how REAL Dean supporters feel..

About a communist stirring up ALL kinds of crap on DU? Gives REAL supporters a bad name, cuz who knew?

On edit: I have been undecided throughout the primary season. I also give Dean (and his REAL supporters) all the credit in the world for putting the calcium in the Dem backbone. Please see my post #15 above if you think this in ANY way is a knock on Dean, as opposed to his communist supporters who call themselves progressives...

[salin]

123. I find this whole thread silly

a non issue suddenly used (as is often the case in this forum - for and against all candidates and their supporters) as a point of ridicule a point to fight a point to insult others, etc.

but this little side thread takes the cake in absurdness. It starts with an inference that supporters of a candidate are all communists - then after a few more insults (oh what fun in the sandbox) finally a clarification that it is against a couple of individuals - and well oops maybe not all Dean supporters are communist.

Suddenly the sandbox takes a McCarthy-esque tone in which I expect to see the words... "and fellow travelers."

Thanks for the disclaimer - but it is already so absurd (and this little subthread seemed to come from outer space per the content) - that it almost doesn't even matter.

[chiburb]

125. Where to start....

"a non issue suddenly used (as is often the case in this forum - for and against all candidates and their supporters) as a point of ridicule a point to fight a point to insult others, etc."

Sorry, try reading again. Nowhere is there an attempt to insult you or other Dean supporters. Just those that disguise their real purpose here.

"It starts with an inference that supporters of a candidate are all communists - then after a few more insults (oh what fun in the sandbox) finally a clarification that it is against a couple of individuals - and well oops maybe not all Dean supporters are communist."

Sorry again. I don't see where anything I posted was about ALL Dean supporters, and I specifically said it was addressed to those that ARE communists (pretending to be otherwise).

"Suddenly the sandbox takes a McCarthy-esque tone in which I expect to see the words... "and fellow travelers."

Imagine what you want.

"Thanks for the disclaimer - but it is already so absurd (and this little subthread seemed to come from outer space per the content) - that it almost doesn't even matter."

Too bad you choose to argue with the messenger instead of the message: SOME Dean supporters that engage in drive-by posts that rip other candidates have poisoned the well for others. Keep focusing on me, not the fraud.

[salin]

131. I don't say this as a "dean supporter"

I say it as one who knows about debt relief in campaigns - fact of life. nonissue.

I say it as one who gets fed up with the trite back and forth blow a mountian out of a molehill and get into combat threads - which come from and go in all directions (from various candidate supporters) and have long watched even formerly keen minds in terms of issue discussions and analysis get sucked into the poison of the retaliatory nature of these threads to where reading - unless on this thread for humour's sake (its like a piece of performance art when looking for an absurd charicature of the dynamics of the GD04 forum).

Again - what the heck does that have to do with the thread ... except by inneuendo to imply that dean supporters are communists.. well at least a few... :eyes:

To your final point - that is my point. This forum sucks folks into a retaliatory mode where because they felt sniped at by someone (or two) associated with a candidate - that there is righteous justification to take a broadside at other supporters of that candidate... and that broadside snaps at other (innocent bystanders if you will) supporters of the first candidate who then feel self righteous and justified in taking a swipe at the supporters of the candidate of the other person... and so on ... and so on... That is what this thread quickly devolved into - as I noted above - that the main "point" of the thread is a nonstory in terms of debt relief of a campaign.. but hey goodie... lets get lots of attack and counter attack messages in ... its so much fun... and lets get some "fellow travelor" type language in... what joy... etc.

My point - is exactly attacking the multiple, absurd messages in this thread - and the highpoint of absurdity in this little subthread.

Hint: take the beef you have out on those directly with whom you have the beef. It stops the broad brush, broad side swipe dynamic that sucks more and more people into the compulsive land of reactive "drive-by" posting.

[chiburb]

142. You're right...

Sandbox, retaliatory, innocents hurt by use of the broad brush.

I apologize, my beef IS with specific Dean supporters. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in the beginning, and it won't happen again.

[salin]

134. and the critique in my post

was on the message (of the posts in this particular subthread) - and the tone and tenor of the message as it was read by this pair of eyes.. in the context of this rather contentious over a molehill issue thread.

[dionysus]

124. Well, if one communist likes Dean, then by golly

Dean must be one himself!!! Really, thats a huuuge stretch ; some communist guy on a message board likes Dean, so now Dean was the "Commie Candidate" Really, thats just wierd.

[chiburb]

126. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Who posted that Dean must be a commie? It's a huge stretch alright, one that YOU made. As for Dean being the "commie candidate", what are you talking about?

[salin]

132. or perhaps

since more than one read that undertone... that message perhaps is conveyed?

on edit ("that message" not "the message")

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

144. it's the DLC that's anti-labor, not the IWW, which is a labor union

you people ... whatever.

Oh, and who is the communist please? The IWW has always been an ANTI-communist organization.

[eridani]

128. I really don't understand this

AFAIK, he has $9 million left. What happened?

[Nicholas_J]

141. After the bills start coming in...

A lot of the contract that candidates make dont come due until after the campaign is over. Its really common. Some people who drop out also pay their paid staff for months after they drop oout, so as to give these people something to live on while they are looking fo new jobs. Al Gore did that, and Joe Lieberman is doing it now. Dean probably is as well. It's not uncommon. Its generally the right thing to do from a human stance, as well as a political thing to do if you intend on running in the future.About the only thing in political campaigns that requires up front money is television advertising time. Other people bill monthly or quaterly. others wait untl the campaign is over win lose or drop out.

[HuskerDem]

130. His supporters will help him out I'm sure. It hurts to give to a

candidacy that won't be what you hoped for. I know, I did it today for Clark.

Just kind of pokes at a wound just starting to heal.

Hurts.

[turnhardleft]

136. I sent him 100 bucks

My next 500 will go to ABK.