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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:29 PM
Original message
If Obama wins the Democratic nomination, I believe America is ready for a black president.
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 12:33 PM by Skinner
(Reminder: The DU Administrators are officially neutral in the Democratic primary, and we will continue to be neutral throughout this process. This is a narrow response to a particular issue, not an endorsement of Barack Obama.)

Since Barack Obama won the Iowa caucus on Thursday, I've seen a number of posts here on DU on whether an African-American man could win the presidency. This is an issue that came up in my family discussions over the Christmas holiday, and my brother-in-law made a comment which has really stuck in my brain for the last week and a half. He said:

"Barack Obama has achieved Tiger Woods status."

My impression is that this is basically true. But what, exactly, is "Tiger Woods status"?

There is no doubt in my mind that there is still a significant amount of racism in this country. In my mind, this racism is of two broad categories: Bigoted Bias, by which I mean feelings or attitudes -- both conscious and unconscious -- that people have toward individuals and/or groups of people of different races; and Institutional Racism, by which I mean the vastly different circumstances that exist for different racial groups (eg: poverty rates, access to quality education, safe communities, etc.). For the most part, overt bigoted bias is no longer considered acceptable in our culture (thankfully), but sadly less-overt manifestations are still relatively common. Institutional Racism is still a huge problem, and many in our culture refuse to even admit that it exists, preferring to dismiss the issue as being entirely a by-product of problems in minority communities themselves rather than accept that the problem is caused by society as a whole.

By "Tiger Woods status," I think my brother-in-law meant that Barack Obama has managed to transcend the racism of our society. He is not seen as a "black leader," but rather as a leader, period. His race is incidental to how he is perceived by society as a whole. Tiger Woods does not belong to the black community alone -- he has been embraced by (almost) our entire culture. Barack Obama has shown that he is capable of being accepted in the same way. Both of these men have been able to do this because first, they have been careful to project images that eschew any overt racial identity, and second, because America has (believe it or not) progressed far enough that a majority of our citizens are willing to accept them on these terms.

In this, I think politics is a lagging indicator. Barack Obama and Tiger Woods are able to appeal to Americans in this way because they are beneficiaries of the society that previous African Americans have made. They are part of what I think is a sort-of "second phase" of the civil rights movement.

The first phase of the civil rights movement was about knocking down barriers. By necessity, it was confrontational, and the response from racist whites was, predictably, negative. The leaders and trailblazers from this era are people like Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Jackie Robinson, Jack Johnson, James Meredith, and the Little Rock Nine. Looking back decades later, MLK and Rosa Parks and Jackie Robinson are now seen as almost saint-like, but they were not seen that way at the time. Others, like Malcolm X and Jack Johnson, are still today seen as highly controversial. Those who were successful in politics -- people like Coleman Young in Detroit or Marion Barry in Washington, DC, or even Jesse Jackson -- tended to appeal mostly to black voters for their political success, and were viewed with great suspicion by most whites.

Decades into the first phase of the civil rights movement, a second phase has quietly emerged. After the first wave of civil rights leaders busted down the doors, millions of ordinary African-American citizens have integrated into society. They did not have to bust down the doors, but they did have to understand how to navigate the treacherous racial landscape. This is the society that I (a 36-year-old white male) grew up in.

I missed the civil rights movement. During my lifetime the country has seen plenty of "controversial" African Americans. But I think racial relations during this era -- and in particular the last twenty years -- have been characterized mostly by interactions between "regular" people. At school and at work, whites and blacks interact with each other every day, and while there is still plenty of ignorance and misunderstanding, many of us have seen firsthand that we have little to fear from one another. In the public sphere, prominent African Americans during this era have been able to focus less on breaking down barriers, and instead focus on doing their job, whatever it is.

So, Barack Obama is standing on the shoulders of giants.

He is standing on the shoulders of all the ordinary African-American citizens that white Americans interact with every day. In our schools. In our workplaces. At the grocery store or the mall. On our favorite liberal discussion forums. And sometimes (but not often) in our places of worship.

And he is also standing on the shoulders of prominent African Americans from this post-civil rights era. People who transcend racial stereotypes and have been embraced by almost all of America. People like (off the top of my head): Oprah Winfrey, Bill Cosby, Muhammad Ali, Arthur Ashe, Michael Jordan, Will Smith, Halle Berry, Denzel Washington, James Earl Jones, Morgan Freeman, Bernard Shaw on CNN, Ed Bradley on "60 Minutes," and (of course) Tiger Woods.

In politics, the trend is more subtle, but equally important. While there are still plenty of African-American politicians who are narrowly considered to be "black leaders," there are more and more who have broad appeal to both whites and blacks. Here in Washington, DC, where Marion Barry was once Mayor, we had Anthony Williams and now Adrian Fenty. In Detroit, Coleman Young was followed by Dennis Archer. In Massachusetts, Deval Patrick. In national politics, Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice. (Yes, I know.) They have all helped pave the way for Barack Obama's run today.

No, America is not ready to elect a "black leader" like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton to the presidency. But I believe they are ready to elect a strong, inspiring leader who also happens to be black.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think so too, but I want coattails for Congress.
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 12:34 PM by onehandle
And Obama will make blue districts bluer. And some purple districts bluer.

Some.

Edwards would make Many purple districts solid BLUE. And many red districts purple to blue.

We need a Solid Majority in Congress to make Democrats Braver!
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Not sure about that.
If Iowa is any indicator he's going to bring out Dem voters like nothing we've seen.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
114. Possibly
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 08:51 AM by PATRICK
and I sincerely mean that as a big plus not just begrudging. Hie is a bit green and new to all this, but his offering to the center will not run out of steam or interest if he keeps it up. Sorry to say Kerry WAS a bit lackluster in the rhetorical department. People would vote for ANY genuine leader at this point. After Bushitler they need to steal GOP votes back to their cause in blatant numbers.

Of course, that is assuming the GOP guts itself and lays prone, putting up umbrellas against the avalanche. The MSM will start the long unswerving negativity against Obama that will, without reform, pursue his graces with slander well beyond the grave.

The difference this time is that Independents are joining the groundswell early. This a uniquely good sign and weapon against all that evil will do to stop anyone from beating the Bush crony(who in another good sign is having great difficulty sealing the glum deal).

As of now it is looking(feeling) more tsunami than mere victory.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
122. I cannot believe you use this thread for cheerleading Edwards.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. .
:thumbsup:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes.
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Clanfear Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent analysis!
I have been trying to find the words that detail almost exactly what you have said. Thank you.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
84. Obama's Big Advantage? He's Black.
He has achieved Folk Hero Status like Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis, Sammy Davis Jr.

He is allowed to be President due to this level of LOVE.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #84
100. Naw, that ain't it. It's because Obama was against the Iraq War before the war started.
If any one of the other Democratic candidates would have been against the Iraq War from the start, and didn't have the baggage of voting for the IWR, they wouldn't be getting their asses handed to them now.

If Kucinich would have opened an office in Iowa, he would have done well there. But, for whatever reason, Kucinich doesn't do things the way they should be done. The fact that he didn't even open an office in Iowa told me he was just running to get his message out, which is fine with me. But, I don't think he was serious about becoming the next President.

I think Biden should have stayed in the race longer just to have his voice heard, but he decided otherwise.

Even if Obama loses the nomination, it won't be because of the color of his skin.
It will be because of his message and the way he conveyed it to the voters.

Considering how bad the Republican candidates are, I think any of the Democratic candidates could hand them their ass in the fall during the debates.

Still, I like the way Obama talks about the future and about hope.

There hasn't been any of that from the Bush administration at all these last 7 years.

I'm one of those guys who agrees with that song by Elvis Costello, What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

We have had too much killing for too long for no good for no reason.



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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
143. Then why has he allowed the Congress to take
away our Constitution and rights? He voted for the Patriot Act II. He gave his "terrorist fear" speech on CSPAN. Talk is cheap so is hope.

I and other Americans in 2006 wanted change but what we got with this Congress (Obama was one of them) was more of the same ole Bush crap.

Words, words, words won't save our democracy and our way of life. Removing and holding this gang of thugs accountable might.
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stickernation Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #84
103. I agree !!!! BLACK *IS* AN ADVANTAGE

it is a fiercely underappreciated truth that being Black has become an ADVANTAGE in this society and that in and of itself is worth celebrating !!!!!! I believe EVERY ethnicity should have powerful inherent pride in who they are and that every ethnicity should be seen as an advantage by its members. That is not racism but a powerful testimony to the strength and flexibility of the United States. It is so good to hear that being black is now perceived as an ADVANTAGE. how far we have come !!!
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elaineb Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe America is ready for a black president, even if Obama doesn't win the nomination
But then I'm a progressive and an optimist, so I'm pie-in-the-sky like that.

Good post. DU needs to hear this more often.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
75. I believe minorites and women have always been ready for president
but sadly the voters/gamers have taken far too long to come to accept this.
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Misha2 Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Living in Southern Virginia
I don't think that much of the country is ready for a black President at this time. They probably aren't ready for a female President either...as a VP maybe. I am not a southerner either..but from MA and I really don't think it looks good for Obama nationally unless the Repubs. end up with someone that turns a great deal of the repubs away.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #75
129. Give us a Progressive minority or woman not a
look alike Republican for President.
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
92. 1968
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well thought out and well stated
I hadn't thought about politics as a lagging indicator, but it makes perfect sense.

I remain committed to Edwards, but Obama is my etched-in-stone #2 and I would be proud to vote for him.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. K & R
:thumbsup:
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
:thumbsup:
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. I fully agree.
Very eloquenty stated. For a long time I thought he was basically a symbol but it turns out he's also a great candidate, far and away the best of the lot IMHO.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. I very much want to think so.

Being in Kentucky, I'm going to have to wait and listen awhile to form a clear opinion about this. It does seem to be true for the college, high school range -- but those aren't all voters.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tiger Woods is one quarter African American. Obama has no African American parentage.
His father was born and raised in Kenya.



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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. His father is African and Obama is American
What are you trying to say here?
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Statement of fact. nt
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
49. Incorrect,
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 07:51 PM by FrenchieCat
Tiger Wood's father was Black. Period. Maybe you are confusing Tiger Woods own child who is correctly 1/4 Black....

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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
141. I think I read somewhere that Tiger Woods
referred to himself as a Canablasian (or something like that) to recognize his Father's mixed heritage...Ca (Caucasian) NA (Native American) BL (Black).
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
93. Wow. I didn't realize racist Americans factored in % blackness.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent post! I think you nailed it. K & R n/t
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. I agree America is ready. Unfortunately, the election theme will once again be a war theme thanks to
our own people like Nancy Pelosi and our own candidates who refused to stop the war by de-funding it.

Regardless of whether or not it's partly our own fault that we're still over there, the fact is that we will still be at war in Iraq when the election rolls around.

Most likely the candidate Obama will be facing will be John McCain. In a year where we're still locked in war, that will not bode well for Obama, as inspiring as he is. For anyone who thinks his perceived lack of experience could hurt him during the Primaries, just magnify that by a hundred when the General Election rolls around. Once again, the voters will be swept off their feet by someone like John McCain who they perceive as the one who will have the kind of experience it takes to best protect them from those terrible terrorists hiding outside their bedrooms.

If we weren't at war, I'd think Obama could beat anyone, but we are at war, and the task of him beating someone like McCain will be monumental.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. But what, exactly, is "Tiger Woods status"? It means he's not "too" black.
Not threatening in a Willie Horton, AI, or 36 Mafia kind of way.
But "nice" in a Cuba Gooding, MJ, Wayne Brady kind of way.

"Barack Obama is standing on the shoulders of giants."
Absolutely. I hope he understands that.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Tiger Woods considers himself multicultural. I think when people who identify themselves as white
and identify Woods as black it is from the old days in the US when any known African heritage could mean you would be classified as black and discriminated against. I don't necessarily consider it a step forward but I suppose it might be for people used to classifying in black/white terms.

From Wikipedia:

.......Cablinasian (a portmanteau term he coined from Caucasian, Black, American-Indian, and Asian).


His caucasian ancestry includes Dutch as does my caucasian ancestry.
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Omegaman Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. multiculturism
Exactly! I grew up on a small farm in rural Illinois and the only Black people I saw were on TV playing a sport professionally. I have met Barak and he is everything people say he is, he stops and listens to what you have to say and doesn't seem like he wants to be someplace else in a few minutes.
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RoadRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. I LOVE the Tiger Woods Analogy!
No one thinks of Tiger Woods as the best "Black" golfer in the world.. they simply think of him as the best GOLFER in the world.

I see the course changing where Obama is not the best democratic candidate running for President who is black.. and soon it will be (if not already) that he's just "The best candidate running for president".

On the flip-side.. many people still see Hillary as a great (or not-so-great) first "Woman" running for President. It's been much tougher for her to shake her gender then for Obama to shake his race.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. Whatever Tiger Woods calls himself, he failed to stand against discrimination
against females in the golf world ---

So --- there are two things going on in this discussion ---

What impact will "black" candidate have in bringing racists out to vote --

And, what is the truth about the candidate's positions --- ????


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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #65
109. You want to end discrimination in golf?
So, no more "men's tour"? No more "women's tour"? Just "the tour"?

Do you think that will give women an equal shot at the prize? the big money?

With very few exceptions, women would not make the cut after day 2 of any tournament.

Same in tennis. Basketball. Boxing.

Having separate (discriminating) tours gives women a chance at some sports prize money, post title-9.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #109
145. How about letting women play at Augusta --- ???
Women are not permitted to be members of Augusta ---

Remember . . . ?

2002 -- Martha Burk writes Augusta National Golf Club which hosts the prestigious Masters Tournament expressing concern over the Club's all-male membership policy and urging change --

Btw, there's a secret membership roster --

"The closed gates of Augusta symbolizes all the ways women still are barred from the highest echelons of power -- in govenrment, social and religious organizations -- and most important . . .
in corporate-America."

Not simply about golf or private association --

Rather -- web of business, government and philanthropic affiliations of Augusta members.

Behind these club gates --- a cult of power.

Cult of Power by Martha Burk ---

Points out that Tiger Woods had a "unique opportunity" to make a difference, but that speaking out against discrimination was the responsibility of all the golfers, not just Woods. That was the truth, but privately she knew that he could probably change the Augusta National policy single-handedly if he wanted to.

NY Times called for Tiger to boycott Masters -- and were criticized for not calling for all golfers to boycott.

There were four known African-American members of Augusta ---
After the KKK publicly announced its support of Augusta's policies, these men were conspiciously silent.

Tiger Woods said . . . "If it's not one thing - it's another..."



--------------------------------

So, no more "men's tour"? No more "women's tour"? Just "the tour"?

Do you think that will give women an equal shot at the prize? the big money?

With very few exceptions, women would not make the cut after day 2 of any tournament.

Same in tennis. Basketball. Boxing.

Having separate (discriminating) tours gives women a chance at some sports prize money, post title-9.



From what I can make of your comments you misunderstand most of the gender issue --

In commenting on YOUR assumptions as you've posted them . . .

Tiger Woods coach - Butch Harmon -- is head pro at the infamously anti-women Lochinvar in Houston, TX where Tiger played frequently in the 1990's. Lochinvar didn't even permit women on the grounds to deliver packages -- and when a female CNN/Sports Illustrated producer showed up to interview Harmon, she was escorted to the rear entrance of the club. Tiger was wearing a shirt with a Lochinvar logo when he won the US Amateur Championship in 1996. But he never would have played at or advertised a club that kept out African-Americans, even if they created a special exemption for him. I trust that makes clear the levels of discrimination that still exist vs women.

While I did not suggest an end to the separate tours -- nor prize money ...
there are, of course, those who do suggest that at some point women will be able to compete directly against males in most sports ---

In fact, I believe women are very close to outracing males right now ---
As for tennis, you seem to be unaware of Billy Jean King vs Bobby Riggs --- SHE won-!!
As for basketball --- this seems to be mainly a matter of height ---
females certainly have the skills if you watch the NJ girls teams.

As for boxing, there are weight categories if females which to involve themselves in this sport ---
which I think should be banned, at any rate.

If you watch the sizes of males vs females --- and some talk about the Hollywood pairing with
females 20% smaller than males --- you will also note that there are just as many women the size of large males as there are petite males who are the size of small women!

Presumably, there was a time when males and females were the same size ---
and, while males are generally stronger, most people don't know that females have more muscle endurance and cope with pain better.






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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Story about my kids and Obama on Caucus night
On Iowa caucus night I brought my kids (both under 10) in front of the TV and did something that I had done when Nancy Pelosi became the first woman Speaker of the House (at that time my daughter was so excited she went and drew a picture of Pelosi in the Congress. She was very excited). So on caucus night my husband and I stood them in front of the TV and said look a black man has won the Iowa caucus and may be the Democratic nominee. I wanted them to see this important moment in our history. But the funny thing is that they didn't get it. They were like "big deal mom". They just didn't get the significance. They said okay mom we'll remember, but whatever. They were excited because we are an Obama family, but the fact that he was a black man went over their heads. Now these kids of mine have been educated in the civil right movement. They know their history and their civil rights leaders (however well kids that age can). . So, upon looking at the response I think what has happened they don't see the big deal that he is African American. As far as they are concerned he's just a guy they like. To them the civil rights movement is something they studied in history. I think that they were more surprised that this was even significant now.

Something tells me that maybe that "Dream" that King had of judging people on the content of their character is happening with our kids generation. Please let it be true. I think it is a transcendence that can attack racism that lies beneath the surface in a way that we our generation has not been able to. In the mean while I have to find a way to teach them that racism still exist in other forms. Honestly thought it feels like I am taking away them an innocence that feels less like innocence and more like progress.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Thanks for your very interesting post, cindyw.
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
94. Maybe in your house, but not in a Southern house.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. While appreciating the sentiment and hopefulness, I still have my doubts about America.
Any country that can come close to electing Bush twice to the Oval Office (yeah, the elections were stolen, but that was possible only because so many millions of Dumbfuckistanians voted for him) has to make one wonder if it is capable of overcoming the kind of racism that would prevent a black man from becoming President.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Moron majority put the chimp back in the White House only three years ago
The same bubbas are not ready and they will vote for anybody but Obama.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
66. PLEASE .... SEE VOTESCAM. . . and understand stolen elections since mid-1960's!!!!
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. Don't forget Al Roker...
Still America's favorite non-threatening Black man.

Just funnin'

I hope DU can put this issue to bed, now.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks, Skinner.
I miss Bernard Shaw! :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. Well said.
Nominated.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. wow--you need to
be a speech writer! What an awesome synopsis of something that has gotten bogged down with cheap rhetoric and pot shots. I never thought of it like that, but your brother is right--Obama has achieved Tiger Woods status.

What I notice here at DU--a supposively "liberal think-tank" is that many do continue to have unconscious racism. Many don't recognize it because it's just been so much a part of our history here in the US. Many just are stuck in the same old thinking, even though I believe many do want to rid their minds of it. Old habit do die hard. As someone who was born and raised in the Deep South during the 1960's, I too am guilty. I'm not talking about the guilt of overt racism. My best friend, who is my rock at times, is black. We've never had a racial barrier, however, there is that little thought that slips in when I see such vile hatred from overt bigots: can this really work? I think old red-neck, racism simmers just below the surface and when someone like MLK, Rosa Parks, and yes, Obama, step up and have the audacity to hope, fear rises it's ugly head and presents itself in ways that has been called the status quo.

I don't believe the tired old argument that Obama isn't experienced enough. After George Bush, this should not even be an issue. Obama is not only more qualified, but much smarter--no doubt. Many thought this of Clinton in '92. What I think we are on the verge of is a huge shift. A shift that is long overdue. A shift that WILL cause many to rise up and attempt to stifle the growth that is so badly needed in this country. I think our kids are on the verge of witnessing another huge movement that could be comparable to the Civil Rights Movement. I for one, embrace it, but with each step a huge breath and sigh of relief comes also. I really haven't decided on a candidate...I guess I like them all. ANYTHING is better than Bush. With that said though, I AM ready for a candidate who has different ideas and who can lead us into a time when this topic is a non-issue.

As Einstein said: you can't change a problem with the same level of thinking that created it.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
107. George Bush should never be our barometer of "good enough"
By that definition, a turnip could be "good enough", and the fact that a turnip could beat anyone of the Republic candidates is neither here nor there. When I personally say Obama doesn't have enough experience, I'm talking about his lack of experience with the demons in Republic clothing that are just now arming up for after the Primaries to begin trying to destroy (swiftboat) the candidate we choose. Senator Clinton and previous Senator Edwards have been through that machine and have seen it up close and personal. They know it can't be reasoned with or bipartisoned with - there is no reaching over the aisle when the creatures on the other side are hell bent on sending you back a bloody stump.

On the original issue, I have been thrilled that with the exception of a small test balloon here and there, the fact that Senator Obama is black, Senator Clinton is a woman and Senator Edwards has a wife who is dying of cancer have been non-issues. That said, I wonder if they will be allowed to stay non-issues? Do those non-issues get ruffled into fake, huge issues when the gloves come off? I hope not, but I'm not entirely confident. I lived the vast majority of my life in the South (now in uber-progressive Seattle - yay1)and while I did see glacial progress in attitudes about blacks, and women, still, in 2000, it wasn't safe for my black boyfriend and me to go outside of Austin and show that we were partnered. People still died for such things. So, we'll see.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. I've seen both eras, being older than you, Skinner
While I did grow up in an integrated neighborhood and go to integrated schools, there were very few black teachers in those schools. Most white working people didn't interact with black working people. Secretaries and executives in offices during the day, were white, all of them, while office cleaners working at night were black, if they could get those jobs away from the Irish. White people had white insurance men (yes, men) and black people had black insurance men. Black grocers had a black customer base; white grocers a white one. And so forth. Even in shared neighborhoods. In my lifetime the work force has integrated racially, as has the professional class, and people of different races have learned about each other in ways that were unheard of when I was young. Rubbing elbows every day with other races has a way of demystifying them and promoting eventual normalcy. People used to fear the "other" in ways they just don't anymore. It's not that racism has stopped existing, of course it does, but that it has lost the oversized power it once held over Americans of all races. Without the civil rights movement, (and I might add the sexual revolution), this change would never have taken place, but once it did, a leader like Obama was possible, because the racial fear and alienation that walled off ordinary person from ordinary person was no longer what it once was.

But I think racial relations during this era -- and in particular the last twenty years -- have been characterized mostly by interactions between "regular" people. At school and at work, whites and blacks interact with each other every day, and while there is still plenty of ignorance and misunderstanding, many of us have seen firsthand that we have little to fear from one another. In the public sphere, prominent African Americans during this era have been able to focus less on breaking down barriers, and instead focus on doing their job, whatever it is.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. Skinner I think that appreciating
Tiger Wood's skill as a golfer or Oprah Winfrey's talent as a talk show host or Denzel Washington's ability as an actor doesn't necessarily translate to Americans voting for Barack Obama for President in the general election.

If he is the nominee expect lots of subtle and not so subtle appeals to racism by the r's. They'll use everything they've got and then some.

I guess I have less faith in the American people than you do. They made it close enough for faux "good old boy" Bush to steal - twice. Are those same people going to vote for Obama this time around, in enough numbers to make it theft-proof? I have my doubts.
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pink-o Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
70. I want you to be wrong...
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 09:57 PM by pink-o
...I spent a lot of time in Jamaica 20 years ago, hanging out with an eclectic and totally trans-cultural group of people: ex-pat Euros, Latinos, African-Americans, West Indians, East Indians, and me the Token Ashkenazi Jew with my BFF, an Irish-American girl. This was during the time of the Salvadorian Death Squads and Reagan's little "adventures" in Central American. Everyone I knew on that tiny Carribbean Island had more smarts and education than any average white American regarding that situation.

All I can say is that any racist tendencies I had were wiped out immediately after that!

But most Americans don't have the advantage of having their racial evolution fast-forwarded the way mine was. Barak Obama barely rates a blip on the racial radar to most of my friends--but then I remember that heinous Harold Ford spot in Tennessee last November...

I'm worried most Americans are suseptible to racism like that.

But...

OTOH, if Barak is our candidate, is it really possible he won't beat out a Romney or Huckabee or Giuliani??? Repubs hate their guys, whomever ends up nominated is gonna look like shit next to a dynamic, honest candidate like Barak.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #70
132. I'd love for me to be wrong, too. But, even among people
I know who would be insulted if accused of racism, it lingers. I think of my old school friend (who is married, by the way, to a Latino) who not long ago leaned over to me in a restaurant and said she "couldn't believe" how many black people were dining there that day. It's there in my sister-in-law who told me she's voting Romney because he looks "Presidential" (WTF?) while dismissing Obama by laughingly saying she's not voting for anybody whose middle name is Hussein. It's there in my husband's co-worker who told him he has nothing against black people, but he makes sure his kids attend a "normal white school." On an Oprah rerun I caught last night a black kid complained about being taunted with the "N" word in school. I know those are isolated cases, but I don't think they're uncommon or completely out of left field.

I'm not saying Obama can't win. I just think he faces an exceptionally tough and bigoted road.
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #29
95. Think 1968 (RFK and MLK)
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. Wow. Brilliant, brilliant. And a keeper. :)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
31. He's not my first choice but he impressed me last night and I think we are ready.
You described it well.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
130. You are convinced because of a speech or a record...platform?
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 10:06 AM by mac2
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
32. That Was Wonderful Skinner, It Really Was !!! - K & R !!!
:patriot::kick::patriot:
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. Very interesting & good post
As an older AA that was on the front lines of the 60's civil rights surge, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that the people you mentioned are the fruits we expected our efforts to bear.

MLK, in his final speech at Memphis said, " I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land!"

We have not reached that place just yet, but (along with the American people) we have climbed a long way. And as the weight and stench of slavery and racism fade further into the review mirror of our national identity and culture we will see more Tigers and Baracks et al.. Their presence and contributions will only be noticed as those of humans of American descent.

Many of my comrades and fellow travelers from those turbulent days of physical and emotional struggle are not here to witness these momentous events, but my and their spirits always knew they would come.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
34. Excellent analysis! n/t
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. An interesting (I think) anecdote...
I grew up in the sticks in between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. This was definitely a socially conservative, even backwards place to grow up. And I knew a lot of racists growing up. In fact, most of the people I knew back then were racists - some overt, some not. One guy in particular strikes me as interesting in terms of this discussion. He was my best friend's dad, and boy did he hate niggers. Nigger this, nigger that, black people destroying the country, etc, etc. Except for Joe. Joe was a black guy he worked with as a welder. Joe was fine. Joe was a good guy. And while the darkies might be trying to kill America, Joe was OK. Why? Simply because he had everyday interaction with him and viewed him as a human being instead of "one of those people." The point being - racism isn't simple. There are plenty of folks like this guy who would vote for Obama before they'd vote for any Republican, even if he is black, because Obama appeals to them as a person outside of the narrow race constructs they generally use (and are reinforced by other guys on the job, etc, etc.)

The guy also loved Magic Johnson, even after he came out as having AIDS. Weird guy. I think he's dead from alcohol poisoning now, so he probably won't be voting.
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
98. I live there now and it is STILL conservative and backwards
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #98
142. Yup.
Louisiana checking in here. Still conservative and backwards.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
36. Obama, like Tiger, are African Americans, but they are not Afro-Americans
It is in part because while Obama is obviously "African American," in the sense that he is a person of mixed African and American heritage, he is not an "Afro-American" in the ethnic, historical or sociological sense. White Americans are prejudice against Afro-Americans, a specific ethnic group, not against everyone who happens to have dark skin and African ancestry. For that reason Obama, like Tiger, has become "trans-racial" to most Americans.

While it would have been nice if Obama becomes president, that the first black president would have been an Afro-American, an Obama presidency nevertheless will have a long lasting, profound effect on this country's identity. Perhaps it will open the door for an Afro-American president someday.

It's sort of the way in 19th century Europe, Jews could achieve high political positions -- so long as they converted to Christianity.

We can't ask for everything at once, I suppose. The first black Miss America had to look like a white woman with a tan (Vanessa Williams); the first Latino to have a shot at the presidency had to be named "Bill Richardson"; and the first black person to have a shot at the presidency had to be the son of an African immigrant and white American woman, rather than an Afro-American.

That's just America.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Word
It that's whole "you're not like other black people!" bullshit.

I'm not entirely sure that's progress, but it's a start.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. Good analysis. Makes LOTS of sense.
Nice essay. Agreed. Thanks.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. Well articulated.
I hope you are right. I like to think you are, but I also know that I am a very progressive thinker, as are you. The rest of the world doesn't necessarily think like us.

Although neither Obama nor Clinton are my first choices, I do hope to see a candidates skin color or sex (or even sexual orientation) become a non-issue on the campaign trail within my lifetime.

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LucyParsons Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'm in Texas, and I agree
My largely racist old relatives aren't afraid of Obama because he's black; they're afraid of him because "he's a Muslim".

:eyes:
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
67. He's a Church of Christ Christian
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 09:55 PM by Lone_Star_Dem
Tell them that and watch their heads spin. ;)

On edit: I just noticed your new here...Welcome to DU! :hi:
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. UNITED Church of Christ
Sort of a different deal.

United Church of Christ: God is still speaking,
Church(es) of Christ: God told you already, so read up!
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Oops. That's an important distinction
My apologies. I don't know one form the other.
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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
96. Muslim means black. Just like Illegal Aliens means brown.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
40. Very well said, Skinner. nt
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alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
41. Great post
kicked and recommended!
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
42. If he were to lose, it would not be "because he is black."
It would be because he did "something." There is a big difference between politics and sports. Sports is objective. No one can deny Tiger Woods' golf. It is undeniable. That's not true about a politician's image. It is mostly a subjective perception.

Right now, I'm in the Hillary camp because I think there is a greater chance of her redeeming her image than of Obama sustaining his. I would dearly love to see Obama strengthening his image with objective feats. He can win the nomination without that, of course, and it looks like he may try to. But when he gets into the GE it will be harder.

Obama's debate and interview performances are about the only thing that worry me. But hey, look who lost the debates in 2004 and who is president.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
43. I agree.
I've posted in the past that all parts of Illinois voted for Senator Obama in a big way.

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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
116. After his vote for Patriot Act II
we'd like another candidate for Illinois in Congress. It makes us a Police State. DA!!
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book_worm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
44. absolutely--first rate.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. I find Obama to be a less than ideal candidate...
... for the opposite reason than the one that has hindered Jackson and Sharpton.

Sharpton and Jackson are strong advocates for a constituency. Obama has avoided advocacy to a degree that he's not much of an advocate for anyone.

Edwards is on his heels because he appears to be unafraid. It is my hope that if Obama wins the nomination, he adopts a stance in which he stops trying to be everything to everyone.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
105. If you think...
"Obama has avoided advocacy to a degree that he's not much of an advocate for anyone."

You're not listening!

In all due respect.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
46. I have great hope for the American people.
Obama invokes our better nature.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
47. A black, orange, or green man...
would be better than what we have experienced for the last 8 years. It makes it easier to choose.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
48. Isn't Obama biracial?
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Diamonique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Yes he is, but...
... as he has said himself, when people look at him they see a Black man.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. He's biracial.
But it seems that many in this country still adhere to the hypodecent rule. In fact most African Americans are multi racial.

"A concept--once a law--technically called hypodecent--created in the 1830s that said that "one drop of black blood makes you black." The child born of mixed parentage must identify with the inferior race.
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kelligesq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
50. I highly doubt it. To win he's need crossover Repbulicans - and
if you hadn't noticed Republicans have not been courting the black vote in this century or any other. They will not vote for Obama. Many black people will not vote for Obama.

America, still especially in the South, is not going to elect a black president.

Notice recent reports of ropes hanging from trees in the South?

I highly doubt America is ready for a black president
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. I also doubt it.
Is he the only candidate getting death threats?
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
51. I believe the repubs will steal the election AGAIN, and Obama doesn't see it coming...
since Gore and Kerry won, but didn't become President; why does anyone think that speeches or nominations matter?

These candidates need to start now planning for a fair election. Otherwise, it will be another fiasco.

You only have to "hack" or "cage" two or three states to win! If Obama knew that counting the votes was an issue, he would have mentioned it by now.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. Right!!! Please see VOTESCAM . . . PLEASE . . . !!!!
For all we know, McGovern won---!!!

We've had up is down elections --- and political violence --- since the coup on JFK.
We've had questionable elections with the coming of computer voting machines and that was
mid-1960's!!!


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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
53. Thank you, Skinner.
:hi:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
55. Have you always lived in the DC area?
It's very different out here in the middle and southern parts of the US. VERY DIFFERENT. If you have any evangelicals in your family, call them. It will be a HUGE eye opener.

Maybe I'm underestimating the tolerance and intelligence of most Americans....I guess we'll see.

Being from another generation that did participate in the civil rights movement, the women's liberation movement and the Anti-War movement, we see the world very differently.

It's as if Tiger and Obama are acceptable because one of their parents isn't black. Especially considering what you say about Jesse Jackson....who was one of the few who stood with Ohioans in 2004 and 2005 as we went to Washington, DC to protest Ohio's Electoral votes going to W.

BTW, Tiger is acceptable because he is the Pope of the religion called Golf which has millions of white males as a devoted flock who pray to the Birdie and Eagle. And Tiger never rocks the boat, never says anything political, and even married a white woman.




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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
58. Race, gender or religion should not have any bearing upon an
individual running or being elected to office, whether it be Noxious Weed Controller of my county, or as president of the United States. All that should matter is that the individual be qualified for the position.

With all of the talk coming up about Obama's middle name and his father being Muslim and his mother an atheist, we are seeing a disturbing trend in how hatred and fear are used to build or destroy people running for office.

I am of the position where I do not support, at this point, any candidate in the D side, and I cannot even comprehend an iota of support for the Veggie Bin the R's have put up. I will stay that course until the posturing is over and the candidates start talking about what they can really do to aid all Americans by returning this nation to the people after this nightmare of the bush administration is over. I do not expect miracles and everything will be fine 10 minutes after the inauguration. But in due time, I expect the groundwork to be laid out to get this nation back on track and moving forward.

We have good candidates, I believe any of them could do a far better job than the creature that occupies the WH now. There is a long way to go before the more results are in, and everyone here should realize that almost anything can happen between now and the Democratic Convention. There will be but one winner in all of this, and I hope and pray we get the best out of the lot, as no one will be able to satisfy everyone's expectations.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. Election can't be about an individual --- it has to be about a party and it's platform --- !!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Is the ERA still even in the platform?
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 09:59 PM by defendandprotect
Are we hearing a question like that from those running the show?

Nationalizing our oil?

Electric cars?

Reregulating capitalism --- ?

Undoing private Federal Reserve Bank which sets our economic policy -- and having our elected officials do that job?

Extending Medicare to everyone --- ???

Asking Dems about the Democratic Platform --- ?
What they think should be in or out?





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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #72
119. There is a huge list of issues not even discussed by
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:12 AM by mac2
candidates. "Hope" is great but what is hope without action or problem solving? They are running for President and I want to hear more about real solutions. We demanded it in 2006 yet haven't even started to solve any problems from back then.

Only Kucinich who talked in 2004 about keeping our faith for a brighter day, rejecting fear, etc. has added his solutions.

It's easy to have campaign sloans and sound bites to appear to be a "leader" but it's another to talk about and solve our problems. A President is not a preacher like some candidates sound in this election. It's all hype and no substance. Same ole, same ole.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. It is a question of who will be capable of leading a party/platform
to fruition. The planks of a party platform are built by the party, but I challenge you to show me where the majority of those planks have been fulfilled.

When we are talking about a president we are talking about a lot more than party preferences. A good president knows how to work with congress, foreign affairs and the population in general. One of the reasons the GOP has won in th past is because they kept things simple, so as to be easily understood by a populace that has incredibly short attention spans, and even those only at certain points in time. most people want to earn a decent wage, keep a roof over their heads and maintain viable transportation. They see things only when they go askew. Take driving down the highway, few give it a second thought, until they hit a pothole or a bottleneck, something that brings their attention to a problem. Virtually all politics is based on what can be seen as to how it affects people on a personal level. There are some big issues, but most people realize they are not directly affected by the larger issues, barring war.

We have seen the erosion of the Bill of Rights and the Constitutional precedent of separation of powers, and yet, people do not feel directly affected, so they rationalize the situation into something as spurious as "national security", not thinking that there could be dire consequences down the road. The GOP that has been taken over by the neo-cons knows that if the scope of what is going on is ever scrutinized, they'll never be power again...but people in general don't fathom the reality of what is going on.

In any case, the D platform is always built on far too many ideological points that should be addressed after power is gained, not put up to just confuse and aggravate parts of the party. History shows that few things are actually accomplished at the platform level, the Equal Rights Amendment, the legal cessation of abortion, flag burning amendments, the list goes on for both parties. The big question is, who can lead the nation for the betterment of the nation as a whole? This includes not just D's, but R's and I's as well. If we are inclusive in our policies, I don't necessarily vote for everything in the platform, neither does anyone else, we vote in the hope that things will get better and a few planks will get passage. the more, generally the better, but without someone who can work with others in the Oval Office, nothing gets done that benefits the nation. The object is to figure out who the best candidate is that can address problems and solve them. This is why we have primaries, caucuses and debates...so far, the debates have shown me little other than posturing. Worse still, I read where the only criteria a vote stands on is because Hillary is a woman, Obama is black or Richardson is a hispanic, the list goes on and to vote for someone on terms such as those are foolish is not only foolish, but can prove to be disastrous. Keeping an open mind and a clarity of thought are the best things we have to give us the best candidate we can up with.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #78
124. The party delegates were ignored in the last convention
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:59 AM by mac2
by the DLC regarding the party platform to get out of Iraq, National Health care, etc. It seems the few lead the many. A platform is very important to voters.

We said in 2006 election we want our rights back, our leaders held accountable for their WMD lies, removal of NAFTA, etc.

People do feel directly effected as they complain about government spying, torture, misuse of funding, abuse of Vets, etc. Why do you think Congresses approval ratings are so low? Obama and Clinton are part of that disapproval by the citizens.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
59. I do to
my brother said "Tiger Woods fame" the other day, so yes, I believe he will eclipse most people's view of 'color' and just look at him, but this race is NOT over...
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
60. America would have elected Colin Powell
Yet barring a total meltdown by the Republican nominee, I rather doubt enough people in swing states would cast their votes for a young and inexperienced man like Obama.

And that might well be true, even if he were white.

(Which was one of my worries about Edwards in 2004).
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
74. America might . . . based on the Colin Powell myth --- but reality? If they knew?
Edited on Sun Jan-06-08 10:01 PM by defendandprotect
America is just waking up to the worldwide destruction brought about by our right-wing intelligence agencies, coups, CIA, and conspiratorial presidents and VP's . . .

The press is telling the public very little of anything ---


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CranialRectaLoopbak Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #60
99. Colin Powell is an ass.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
61. If he wins the nomination, America had better be.
Because if it is not, we will be in some seriously deep shit.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
63. WE may be ready, but it will bring out every racist fanatic in the country to vote ----
IMO, however, he is an inferior candidate to Edwards ---
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
64. Donkey kick
:kick:
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
69. Blue states yes, deep south red states? I think not.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. I don't believe there's one state that the Democrats have any chance of carrying
Where this will be an issue.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
87. We can't win those regardless.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
149. Its a good ol' boy system down there
Where even if a dem wins an election like the governors race in Alabama, they immediately run everybody out of the courthouse close and lock the doors and "recount" the votes with no opposition eyes always redounding in their favor and threatening anyone who tries to challenge their conclusion will be arrested on the spot and put in Jail. It's a good ol' boy system right up to the state supreme court and the next court right up to scotus.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #69
91. Or the Conservative MW
won't vote for Obama. I've been trying to tell my other Democratic friends this but they think just because the media and Repubicans love it...it will lose us the election.

My question is...where is there a Democratic candidate except for Kucinich who will give us back our rights and democracy? Or will we get the same ole some ole as those in power today? I want change and not just promises. I've had it after the 2006 folly.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
76. Nice point Skinner
That's my take on this as well. It's like Tiger Woods, only political.
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
77. I think you're probably right
...but I can't support him until he's the last one standing. He and Hillary both equivocated on their first chance to deny funding for Bush's idiotic war in Iraq, waiting until the last minute to vote and only when it was clear that the Dem's bill would go down in flames. Neither took a firm stand until it was all over.

I can only support Obama and Clinton half-heartedly, but I will support either if one becomes the Democratic nominee. In the meantime, I'll keep charging ahead for John Edwards. He and DK are the only ones who consistently sound like Democrats.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
80. Skinner, I am African American and you absolutely nailed it!

:bounce:

k and r
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
81. Skinner, do you believe America is ready for a female president? nt
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tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #81
102. whoa, Marie26, let's not get crazy here...
I mean that's really a non issue. Let's look at history here: Women have had the unfettered right to vote since 1920 - I mean that was a long time ago - back in the 20th century! I don't even remember most of the 20th century.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #102
146. Oh, yeah, total non-issue
Except when it isn't.
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
85. I hope to God you're right, Skinner...
Whether or not Obama gets the nomination. I hope America IS, as John Edwards likes to say, "better than this."

I think there will be, unfortunately, some people who will refuse to vote for an African-American. However, I do think that most of the country is "better than that." There's a lt of racism, still, but as people work with, go to school with, live next door to, people of all races, that's thankfully changing.

I don't support Obama, but NO ONE should not vote for him because of his race, either in the primaries or the general. (And if he does win the nomination, I will proudly vote for him in the GE)
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
86. WE ALREADY HAD A BLACK-HEARTED ONE....
we have 4 great candidates at the last debate... similar messages in some areas,
different in others....

LET'S TRY NOT TO GET SOOOOOOO HOT ON ONE CANDIDATE THAT YOU DON'T SUPPORT WHOEVER WINS...

WE NEED THE WIN IN 2008


REMIND YOUR FRIENDS THAT DUE TO THE EXPECTED LARGE TURNOUT,
DEMOCRATS WILL BE VOTING ON NOVEMBER 4
REPUBLICANS ON NOVEMBER 5

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GMFORD Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
88. Loved your analysis.
Couple of comments about Obama:
Obama has run a superb campaign. His message is very positive and talks about the future which upsets some of us because we like Edwards' campaign of fighting against the establishment. But let's face it, a black man can't win with a campaign like that -- if Obama talked about tearing down the old ways and building a new America, people would wonder if he was ranting against the neo-cons or the white establishment (a la Jesse Jackson).

We should also remember that the facebook generation is not made up of just Dem's children and grandchildren, it's the children and grandchildren of the Grand Old White Men Party. Young people feel Obama speaks for them and he is winning over voters for the Democratic party of the future. That's a very good thing.
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stickernation Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #88
104. your analysis ROCKS

could it be that Obama *HAS* to be more vague than Edwards... because otherwise he would be unacceptable ?!

wow, that blows my mind.
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
89. I don't care what color Obama is
Entirely too much is placed on this man's skin color. The ones placing that emphasis are generally tjhose that would not want to see him be president of the US.

I don't want him to be president of the US. I want him to be VP to Edwards. If I cannot have that, well let him be President and Edwards be VP.

Either one of them can be president. I don't care. I am equally non-biased.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #89
126. Remember when the pro-Lieberman people (DLC) in our party
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 09:30 AM by mac2
said America was ready for the first Jewish VP? It was disaster for our defeat of Republicans. Repubs and media loved the idea of Lieberman. Gore would have won hands down with another VP. People in our own party disliked warrior\religious nut Lieberman.

Our own party members use the excuse of race, religion, and sex to intimidate us as being bigots if we don't vote for their choice. I look at their political record and platform. Lieberman has always been a Republican really.

We have to stop running candidates as the "first" of anything except for our win and getting back our country. It's just common sense.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
90. Thanks for this post, Skinner! K&R
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LittleBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
97. Good read
He has become a figure who transcends race, and is not necessarily associated with one.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
101. Pretty coherent post
from someone with a toddler to chase around.

I'm impressed.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
106. Sorry, but I'm not inspired by ANY candidate who is heavily funded by corporations.
I don't care what color Obama is. He is NO different than most of the politicians in Washington DC who have screwed this country up beyond all recognition.

That should matter more than idolizing him like some kind of Tiger Woods, which he is not in the first place.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
108. It's that dogwhistle message that's going to do it for him
You know--all those 60s "special interest" groups are the problem.

Translation--never mind that a white ex-con can beat out a black man with a clean record for a job interview. We won in the sixties. It ain't your fault anymore, white folks-- we've already done everything we can, so no need to look at institutional racism. I sure won't be making demands of you on that score. Just everybody keep their noses clean stay in school and get those high-tech degrees, which will surely help you compete with techies elsewhere who will do the same work for 25% of the salary. It's all part of the shiny new hopeful happyjolly global economy that I'm shilling for.

Of course black politicians who esentially buy the corporate approved mythology can get elected with substantial white support these days, and it sure beats the hell out of 70 years ago. However, Gore may get lionized for pointing out inconvenient truths, but black politicians still don't have all that much room for maneuver on that score.

That said, given that we are probably only going to have a choice of corporate approved candidates, the question becomes "Who can lead us through the coming economic and ecological shitstorm?" Would any be capable of telling their corporate paymasters, "Thanks for the bucks, but I really have to think of the whole country now"? Probably any of our candidates could do that, and I think that Obama has to be right up there near the top based on his prior history.

I'll gladly work for him if he gets the nom. Until then, the notion that it's just peachy keen to have 1% of the population squatting on the rest of us as long as half of that 1% are women, 12% black, 5% gay, and so on with appropriate percentages for every race, religion, sex and sexual preference is a premise up with which I will not put. Hillary's "change" and Obama's "hope" make be gag. Change TO WHAT, and hope FOR WHAT, dammit!!!!
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
110. When someone says "Tiger Woods status"
I just think of media focus.

When a golf tournament is televised, we might not know who's in first or second place. But the commentators certainly keep us informed of how Tiger is doing, how far back, how many times he's come from that far back to win, what hole he's on, color of shirt, breakfast menu, etc.

To me, that's "Tiger Woods status".

He's a golfer. And an advertising icon. But not so much an inspirational leader on issues.



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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
111. I disagree... can you say "KKK" and "John Birch Society?"
Though some may believe that the US is 'ready' for a minority or woman president, I disagree. There are powerful racist and sexist forces that will work to assassinate any of these candidates, long before they get elected. The title of my post gives you two. There are many others, many who are not as organized as these two.

Believe me, I understand the gigantic gains both women and minorities have made in this country. I helped them make these gains. Unfortunately, the reality here in Amerika, is that there are many hidden pockets of racism and sexism. I see it every day. And no matter how hard you try to beat the idea that everyone is equal into some of these rubes' brains, their brain capacity is such that they will NEVER understand, and come to grips with ANYTHING different from them.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #111
144. I can say them, but so what?
Neither organization has been relevant at any point in my entire lifetime. I mean, the John Birch Society? They haven't been relevant since, what, 1970? And have you seen a KKK rally in the last decade? It consists of five people in sheets and 500 people screaming at them. I dunno. I think organizations like that are a bit 20th Century.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
112. We're getting beyond the race thing. But the sexism thing is still going strong.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
113. Dan Rather was on Morning Joe and said that Barack Obama could be the Tiger Woods of politics. {EOM}
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #113
118. I'd "Rather not" take anything he says
as truth. He was the only person in contact with the American people on 911 and turned the story to what they wanted us to believe. He didn't question why our leaders all fled and didn't "lead". It was for fear after all wasn't it?
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
115. Excellent analysis, thanks!
K&R
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TexasEditor Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
117. If Obama doesn't win, will America still be ready?
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
120. Obama Will Not Win ONE Southern State! Why Do WE Want To Do This? Edwards Defeats ALL REPUBLICANS!
HANDILY! :think:

When given the preponderance of Polling Data being published, Edwards is by far and away the superior nominee in performance against ALL REPUBLICAN CHALLENGERS! Total Nonsense and it is The Way Paved By Corporate America not Condi or Colin et al. :think:


Let's NOT :puke: away an opportunity to elect not another JFK as he refers to himself, :crazy:, but an FDR!

Thankfully, Edwards stated he will remain through the convention which may help to diffuse the Corporate pressure to bail. :)

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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #120
125. DaLittle Kitty you certainly purr the truth
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #120
140. I live in the South
I also do not believe Obama can carry ONE Southern State. He could develop a halo, heal the sick and raise Lazarus (or his descendants)from the dead and the South that I know and love will not support him.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
121. So much for your alleged neutrality
Couldn't you have posted this screed under one of your less prominent screen names?

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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
123. race has been declining as an important factor over the years, whereas socio economic class has been
more important in determining success.

i agree that america is ready for a wealthy, well educated black man as a president.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
127. Of Course America is Ready
Never believe the hype from the right. It would do tons of good for the rest of America to admit as much.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
128. The fact the he handily won Iowa...
Which is 97% white I think should be an indicator that the country is indeed ready. And I am not talking about just the delegate count - when you look at the total numbers from, inclusive of the republican voters in Iowa, Obama still wins handily.
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Doc Farmers Mama Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #128
134. I agree.
However, this whole "black president" thing is just a smokescreen being used by the neocon/nazitards as a wedge issue. Obama is smart enough to know what they're doing. He's also smart enough to know that race isn't the major issue in our country. It's change. People want it.

I still think that Hillary has to much money and clout not to win the nomination. We'll see what happens on February 5th.
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
131. I agree...Nice Post!
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veniceboy Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. I believe Obama is the next President
Not only do I believe that Obama will win the nomination, I also believe that he will win the presidency. A lot of people on these boards are frustrated that Obama doesn't say "much". That's how republicans get elected. it's smart. There is little doubt as to how he will govern despite his reluctance (with good reason) to spell it out. He represents a generalized optimism/hope and lets the voters fill in the blanks on the details. It may not satisfy the hard core liberals on this board, but it is brilliant politics. If you want to elect a loser who says exactly what you want (but turns off a majority of the voting populace) don't vote for him. My guess is McCain will be the republican nominee by default. You will have a mummified angry McCain (did anyone see him on Meet the Press- grumpy old man) versus the young Kennedy-esqe Obama. Racists will not vote for Obama. they will not vote for Hillary either. And for every truck driver Edwards might get (and he will get VERY few) he will also lose some latte sipping yuppies. His class politics will rub a lot of fence sitters the wrong way. Young turnout can decide this election for Obama, and I believe it will. As to him not being black enough or not "really" black, I find that deeply offensive on so many levels.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
135. I've been waiting 40 years,Skinner.
YES. I was in the back of the ballroom of the Ambassador Hotel on 06/05/68.
YES. I've campaigned in New Hampshire for Carter,Hart,and Clinton ('92).
YES. I've been extremely active in N.J. politics (including Rep.Jim Florio's Gubernatorial loss to Tom Keane by 1,100 votes in 1981) for almost too long to remember.

And YES..."He's the ONE !"



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BeachBaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
136. I wish to use my very first post here on DU to thank you, Skinner....
for conveying so beautifully how I've felt about this wonderful man for a few years now.

The first time I ever heard Barack Obama was in summer 2004. I was vacationing on the Jersey shore, and was tucking my children into bed after a long night on the boardwalk. My husband had turned on the TV to watch the Democratic Convention.

Because of where I was located in the hotel room, I couldn't see the TV, but could hear what was going on. And what I heard stopped me in my tracks. The voice was filled with hope, promise, and inspiration. It brought tears to my eyes, and joy into my heart. I looked at my husband and said "He will be our first black president, if we're lucky."

I've been a DU lurker for about 5 years now - and your brilliant analogy and thoughts pulled me out of the cyber closet.

Again.....THANK YOU.

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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
137. You saw it here first, Barack Obama will win the election by a landslide... (baby!)
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
138. I agree. With the exception of some racist neanderthals,
America has finally GROWN UP.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
139. Obama is not running as the black candidate, he's a candidate who happens to be black
Race is not central to his campaign, and that's good IMHO. I'm thrilled to have him, Clinton, and Richardson running because our party is much more open-minded, colorful, and interesting than that other party. Our party looks like America.

You're damn right he's not a "black leader", as he has a very different background from most African Americans and a much more diverse support base than many AA politicians. Senator Barack Obama is elected by white people and black people. Illinois is not nearly as black as some would have us believe.

Bill Bennett is a racist asshole. He recently spoke about "Barack Hussein Obama, who is black" as if it was in any way necessary to mention his race or his middle name. A co-worker of mine keeps repeating the bullshit that "he studied in a madrassah" and "he has muslim blood". Expect more of this nonsense.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
147. The US is not 50-50 as was Detroit. Still we're readier.
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 10:19 PM by Festivito
The idea that blacks are subhuman IS DEAD. The idea that blacks are less than whites is not dead. But, then politicians are considered as less than the average friend, so it will work to have a black president. Not because Coleman won, I would think.

Coleman Young was elected as Detroit became a 50-50 white-black electorate. He spoke northern/white English and was accepted by enough white voters to win. Later he spoke with a southern/black accent after Detroit had a higher percentage of blacks, now 80-90 percent black.

Dennis Archer was elected running against a black candidate. All viable candidates for mayor are now black.

Not that it matters but, Coleman was awful. Archer was wonderful, he'd win any election he'd try here. If only we could elect him against his will.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
148. Why not an is America ready for a WOMAN president?
Edited on Mon Jan-07-08 10:32 PM by Darth_Kitten
Because somehow it's just assumed that women apparently have no obstacles to overcome in life, that someone sexism just is never as bad as racism in this world.



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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-07-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. Just reviewing older threads and
saw that your post ended this one....not surprising, huh?

They forget about the 6 million women burned at the stake, don't they? Look at Darfur...how do men learn such hatred and violence? Hell...just look at the U.S. and how rape is swept under the rug.

Thx for your post!
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