"One of the things that I've always said is that abortion is a deeply moral issue.

[IndianaJones]

And those who would deny that there is a moral component to it I think are wrong. The reason that I make a decision to support the choice position is not because I don't think it's a moral issue but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue." 11/9/07 CBN News

"And I was reminded that it is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided, just as I cannot claim infallibility in my support of abortion rights."

Barack Obama

[annie1]

1. here's one part i really don't like...

"i trust women to make to make the prayerful decision"

even outside of the prayerful issue, aren't we lucky you trust us.

[IndianaJones]

4. the telling part is the second quote...he is open to the idea that his pro-choice view...

may be incorrect due to his Christian morality.

[Jim Sagle]

13. He's laying the groundwork for an eventual flipflop.

[annie1]

15. thank you for the post, and that point. i was really enlightened today...

but what hillary said during the town meeting in NH. and this is such a stark contrast.

[sandnsea]

17. CBN is a Christian news organization

This is from an interview with them. If anybody else has gone to Christian groups and told them that they think Jesus would believe gay people who love each other should be able to care for each other when they're sick, let me know. If anybody has gone straight to Christian groups and told them he was going to trust women to make their own decision on abortion, let me know. The point is that these issues are settled and it's time to move on and work together on poverty, the environment, security and other big issues.

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/266144.aspx

[Hekate]

30. If you substitute the word "ethical" for "moral" does it make a difference to you?

Disclosure: I speak as a pro-choice woman who is also a scholar of religions.

When women are acknowledged as "moral agents" it's a very important theological point. Liberal denominations believe women have the capacity to make up their own minds about important issues like abortion. The law of the land, which concerns itself with ethical behavior, believes likewise.

Barack Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ, which apparently treats women as full adults. Being as they are a religious group, they do use the language, hence the use of words like "prayerful."

The Southern Baptist church hierarchy acknowledges no such thing, by the way. The Southern Baptist hierarchy insists that adult females have the same moral status as children, and must be guided by men at all times.

If you substitute the more secular word "thoughtful" for the religious word "prayerful" does it make a difference in how you hear what he is saying?

Hekate

[annie1]

31. right, that's what i mean that...

omitting prayerful, b/c i am not too freaked out by that. :)

[Hekate]

37. Our candidates use different language depending on the audience.It's just communication skills...

It's a way of affiliating, like mirroring a regional accent. It can be done skillfully or clumsily, sincerely or falsely -- like any other form of communication.

As Democrats, we have not been accustomed to talking about our personal religion in public. High status Republicans from the North East (like the elder Bushes) --Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians -- didn't used to do it either.

But thanks to the fundamentalists becoming a political force, religious talk in public has become something that the Democrats have to reckon with, especially since as the Republican base they claimed (loudly and often) the moral high ground starting some 30 years ago.

The Democratic Party is truly a big tent. We welcome all comers, and atheists, agnostics and freethinkers generally ought to feel quite comfortable. I certainly do. Nonetheless an awful lot of Democrats identify themselves with some form of religion, just like the rest of the country, and they don't wish to feel excluded and disrespected by the language of our public discourse. Latinos and African-Ameicans are a natural Demcratic constituency, and they are also to a great extent socially conservative -- in other words, "moral." Our candidates need to keep an open line of communication with ALL Democrats, and indeed all Americans. That means learning to speak their language sincerely, without pandering.

I'm pro-choice, yet I hope that any woman who seeks an abortion does so "thoughtfully". If she (or anyone else) chooses to call it "prayerfully" that's fine with me. If someone says they struggle with the concept, then I say that is what your individual heart/ethics/conscience are for. Pro-choice means you have a choice. That frame (prayer) is not a threat to Roe vs Wade-- look to the candidate's record for that. Barack Obama is pro-choice, as is Hillary Clinton. It's a plank in the Democratic platform. Their records show their support.

Hekate

[roguevalley]

47. too bad men can't get pregnant. there would be a different tune playing

[NMMNG]

2. I made a prayerful decision about whether to vote for Obama

:evilgrin:

[IndianaJones]

6. the second quote brings it to light. he is open to questioning his view...

on reproductive rights based on his religion.

[ruggerson]

7. And what did She tell you to do?

[NMMNG]

28. She said to vote "present"

[Beacool]

34. Good one!!!!

:rofl:

[avrdream]

36. Bravo!

I busted a gut on that one, Buffy.

[Sebass1271]

3. BRAVO FOR HILLARY

I WATCHED THIS WHILE SHE WAS ANSWERING THIS QUESTION ON C-SPAN. AND SHE WAS VERY THOUGHFUL, CAREFUL AND TOOK THE QUESTION TO HEART. SHE GAVE EXAMPLES AS TO WHY SHE FIRMLY BELIEVES THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE WOMEN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE BY MENTIONING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CHINA AND ROMANIA.

[annie1]

5. that was amazing. i am looking for the text of that, and the video on cspan is not loading.

[Sebass1271]

8. Yeah.. that was really great

I wish that other people (especially the republicans evangelists or religious nuts) would have the chance to listen to her answer.. that was very deep.. She was so right...

[annie1]

11. i'm trying to get the video of it, if i can't, i'll type it out once the video is working again

[Enrique]

41. I liked that too

a lot.

[sandnsea]

9. "I would never have an abortion"

How many people here post that every time there's an abortion debate.

Obviously it's a moral question for people.

[Sebass1271]

10. It's a moral question to me

However, i wouldn't like the government to intervene in my decision if I ever choose to have one.

[sandnsea]

12. And what Democratic candidate disagrees?

None.

[ananda]

14. Boy he's playing a game.

So he could pretend to be for abortion rights
but waffle enough to change his mind after
elected...

[IndianaJones]

16. its part of his appeal to moderate Repubs and Independents. nt.

[depakid]

20. Yep- he's PROVEN to be a panderer these past several months

Sad, really.

I hoped for more- but as is all to often is the case, been sadly disappointed.

[Skittles]

38. part of his dis-appeal to me

I don't like it when people pander to homophobes

[sandnsea]

19. Yes, that's his evil plan

He goes straight to Christian groups and tells them he supports choice and gay rights as part of an evil plot to win the Presidency. He marches in gay pride parades, introduces anti-discrimination legislation, votes for rational choice legislation, all as part of his plot. Riight.

[geek tragedy]

40. 100% lifetime rating from Planned Parenthood.

People who pretend that there's some doubt as to whether he's pro-choice are either liars or blinded by partisan angst.

[Triana]

18. Uuummm - ICK-Poo!

OK I was impressed with Obama tonight (not enough to change my mind but impressed) however...this just snapped me out of that.

[hayu_lol]

21. These remarks by Obama are just like all the public stands and votes he has...

produced. He doesn't take stands and he, on sensitive issues, votes present. Keeps his skirts clean don't ya know.

Do we really need another political christian as pres? Or, worse, a political chicken?

[IndianaJones]

22. that is the reason for his widespread appeal. nt.

[Beacool]

35. Yep, why take a stance when you can vote present????

:eyes:

[Nailzberg]

23. Your willingness to distort quotes is what leads people to associate Hillary as disingenuous.

Please stop, for her sake. I can no longer listen to your Rovian crap.

Obama is clearly pro-choice. And despite the Donnie McClurkin SNAFU, which I do not apologize for him on, he remains a strong supporter of equal rights for the LGBT community.

[IndianaJones]

24. I appreciate your comments. Do you also feel that abortion is a deeply moral issue? nt.

[gmudem]

26. Who on earth doesn't?

I'm very strongly pro-choice but to say that there isn't any morality involved in the issue of abortion is absurd.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Um... Abortion IS a deeply moral issue.

If you don't think it is, then you've never known anyone who's had one. Or considered having one. I guarantee you that it was a deeply moral issue for them.

[DFLforever]

25. I agree with Obama on this

Many women wouldn't have an abortion if they couldn't square it with their
conscience and didn't think it was the right thing to do under the circumstances.

So I agree that abortion is a deeply moral decision and I am strongly pro-choice.

[IndianaJones]

27. what do you feel are the right and wrong sides to this moral issue? nt.

[DFLforever]

29. I think that's where conscience enters

and that's why I believe these decisions must be matters of personal choice.

[Naturyl]

32. Agreed.

[IndianaJones]

46. conscience in terms of what? taking life? nt.

[ZombieHorde]

33. Abortion and gay marriage

The reason that I make a decision to support the choice position is not because I don't think it's a moral issue but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue.

There is nothing wrong with being trusted.

And I was reminded that it is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided, just as I cannot claim infallibility in my support of abortion rights.

This sentence makes a couple of points that interest me.

1) He does not support gay marriage. Why does he not trust gay couples to decide on marriage?

2) He does not believe that he is infallible. This is a nice contrast to GWB.

[Azathoth]

39. The decision to have an abortion IS a moral issue...which is why the government shouldn't interfere

n/t

[Enrique]

42. I wonder who would disagree with either of these positions

any candidate declare that abortion is not a moral issue, or that their position on gay marriage is infallible?

[eridani]

44. Of course it's a moral decision, but who the hell cares?

The only relevant question is WHOSE moral decision it is.

[IndianaJones]

45. what are the right and wrong choices? nt.

[eridani]

48. Different people have different ethical systems.

That's why just about any abortion decision can be moral.