Before I retire for the night, I must say this about Hillary...

[kentuck]

Her angry moment was not shrill. It was the same as if she had been a man. She looked strong and presidential, in my opinion. Although I do not think she helped herself by going after Obama, I thought she came across as a very serious and competent person. I think it is sexist and wrong to compare her passion with anger or the Dean scream. I thought she won the debate... with Obama and Edwards tied for a close second. Just my opinion.

[proud patriot]

1. I agree

[robbedvoter]

2. Thank you. I totally agree.

[durtee librul]

3. I don't think she was 'shrill' in the true sense of the word, however

I do think her body english and her facial expression showed her inner feelings and it wasn't purty.

[earthlover]

49. She was obviously rattled, angry and defensive

A male candidate would have been ridiculed for such a show. Hillary's backers can use the mysogyny defense, unlike a male in the same position. If you can't stand the heat....

[Hieronymus]

53. Hear hear

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. You know, I think she should have psyched herself into becoming more leftist.....

.... if she had, she'd be doing better right now.

[Sparkly]

8. Her policy positions and proposals are not much different from Edwards' and Obama's.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. She needed to say she would end the war in 3 months after being elected....

She needed to say that she wants Bush and Cheney impeached. She needed to say that the primary focus in her mind was the absence of jobs due to free market trade agreements and the busting of unions, and that she would modify NAFTA or do away with it, and promote unions. She needed to say that there is a class division in the U.S., and that the rich are getting richer on the backs of the rest of Americans.

She didn't say any of that.

[Sparkly]

17. She said she'd end our occupation asap

Which have said they want Bush and Cheney impeached? Obama or Edwards?

The "primary focus on her mind" -- who said something was a "primary focus on their mind?" And how did that play with the people who have a different #1 issue?

She's said quite a lot on the rich getting richer and the need to empower the middle class. She talked about that again tonight.

This is so absurd!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Not good enough. She never showed outrage....

She needed to say Haliburton was a group of mercenaries, that they were criminals. She needed to say that our boys are being murdered in the name of oil. She didn't. She didn't say lots of things.

[Sparkly]

25. And who did?

Which of them did, Sarah?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. Edwards, over and over and over. He's the one keeping the debate on real issues rather than bs

He's not allowing H. Clinton to skim over the surface of anything. He's forcing it to a point where it becomes obvious she's not going to say those things she needs to, and that's good for all of us to know.

MOST IMPORTANT, he's discussing the CORPORATE PROBLEM.

[Sparkly]

31. What?

Edwards said, "Haliburton is a group of mercenaries. They are criminals. Our boys are being murdered in the name of oil." Really?

Did you not hear her talk about no-bid contracts, and corporations?

Selective hearing?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. No, not that one statement, but I dare H. Clinton to say anything Edwards is saying...

... she wouldn't dare. She owes too much to the corporations. She would NEVER! And this country has a corporate problem. A big one!

[Sparkly]

40. I forgot -- "corporate shill," right?

This place is an echo chamber of "common wisdom."

I'm going to bed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. She needed to have spoken out against corporations. She did not.

She chose not to. Her problem!

[enough already]

26. Her "asap" isn't good enough for me

Not after the votes she's cast.

[Sparkly]

28. Well if it's about the votes she's cast, there's nothing that'd be good enough for you. nt

[enough already]

58. I know, those votes can be pesky things. n/t

[earthlover]

50. hasn't hillary said she wanted a residual force in iraq?

[patrioticintellect]

5. Bill Richardson won the debate

Somehow he managed to get on stage before ABC News found a good reason to exclude him.

[Horse with no Name]

20. LOL. n/t

[SaveOurDemocracy]

46. LOLLLLLLLLLL ... thanks for the chuckle. ;o)

[goldcanyonaz]

6. I agree too. I was so proud of her tonight. K & R!!

[KennedyGuy]

7. I concur..

[KittyWampus]

9. AS a woman I call bullshit. It's not sexist to remark on Hillary being a BAD actor who came across

as a frustrated has-been having an outburst whilst trying to come across as passionate.

[aquart]

14. And there are no anti-semitic Jews, either.

"Frustrated has-been"? "Trying to come across as passionate"?

Maybe want to check the lenses you're looking thru.

[superkia]

16. Thank you for that! She even looked angry, I was waiting for her to...

get up and kick someones ass. She should have just taken it the way Obama took it from her when she addressed him, he stayed cool, pointed out that a media person was repeating HER peoples comments and he cleared up the fact about the health care issue. Very professional and respectable, I thank him on behalf of my children.

[terisan]

44. Looking angry in a woman was a vice before the womens movement. Only men were allowed to look angry

Women were supposed to smile. "What's the matter honey, give us a smile". I used to hear that from total strangers, leering total strangers. Yuck.

After the womens movement achieved success i was able to look angry or impassive, as well as smile without being rebuked. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

If your children are female pass the torch of freedom of facial expression to them. They will respect you for it.

[earthlover]

54. I disagree....

Hillary was obviously ruffled, lost her cool, extremely defensive. Any male candidate would get ridiculed for such a performance. Can anyone name a male candidate who got so defensive and angry during a debate that did NOT get castigated as losing his cool? I didn't think so.....Hell, Howard Dean got laughed off the reservation because he did that scream thing. Which wasn't even anger!

I'm sorry, but I hold Hillary to the same standard I would have for a male candidate. I am not going to make excuses for her because she is a female. I think females can be expected to do a lot better than Hillary did tonight. Especially if they are running for a high pressure job such as the president of the us.

[durrrty libby]

33. Grow up and try and be a real woman. Stop killing our species

[terisan]

45. Please clean up your language. nt

[msongs]

10. she was gracious and obama looked like he had a hemmorhoid when

hillary said something to the effect that obama was likeable. She smiled and looked gracious while obama hung his head and forced himself to say something nice about her with a crap look on his face. ugly.


Msongs

[kelligesq]

15. CLUE - Hillary has been reported to be very nasty to Obama - she has

some kind of mad on for him - reports are that even before they come on stage he
always tries to greet her and she ignores him - did you see after the debate she shook everybody's hand, was laughing warmly even with Edwards, but Obama went over to her and she gave him a dead fish handshake didnt even look at him and continued walking....

something went on with them before all these debates...would love to know what - he's always trying to get her attention, be nice, and she snubs him.

[Sparkly]

22. Ooh, it's been reported...

Reports are...

Stop this. It's ridiculous.

[terisan]

27. I am sure he can take it like a man!

[kelligesq]

32. Apparently not, since he hangs his head like a bad puppy whenever

she does it to him.

[terisan]

35. uh oh how will he deal with Merkel ? nt

[TheDonkey]

11. it wreaked of desperation and was unbecoming

Romneyesque

[Sparkly]

18. "unbecoming" -- now I've heard everything!!

I think she should wear white gloves next time, how about you? :rofl:

[terisan]

30. Unbecoming what? Tell us . Don't talk in riddles. Unbecoming ___________?

[JohnnyLib2]

13. I agree, and find it tiresome that the "anger" thing has to be

discussed so much.

An earlier post shed light on the subject:
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3965336

[MarkInLA]

19. Agreed.

I actually like her a little more after tonight's performance.

[Auntie Bush]

23. I second that opinion! Big time!

[Big Blue Marble]

24. I say this as a woman who speaks her mind.

I watched it several times. I do not think it worked for her. Rightly or wrongly anger, in a woman is perceived
differently. She flashed anger that was beyond expressing her positions. Her body language spoke of her deeper
anger for the loss she recently sustained. It was not appropriate to the situation and did not serve her well.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silent3]

47. If only she'd said "eat shit and die"!

It would have been worth it just to see the heads exploding around here. :)

I'd tivo-ed the debate, but had started to read some of the comments here first about the so-called scream before actually watching the debate myself.

When this apparently earth-shattering moment arrived, I wasn't even sure for a while if I was hearing the part that everyone was making such a fuss over. I've seen actors supposedly playing Vulcans on Star Trek raise their voices and shift tone more than that! That was a "shrill" moment!? Something to equate to the Dean Scream!?

I just don't see how anyone perceives her performance as "shrill", or any more than a quite normal and appropriate shift in tone of voice for the situation, unless (1) they simply hate Hillary and will desperately amplify the most piddling thing they can find to make a point, or (2) they judge women by wildly different standards than they judge men.

[kelligesq]

36. I did think her voice was shrill, enough so my head jerked up while

I was doing something else. Nope, I dont think it served her well.

[terisan]

41. Ah well she did get your attention then. nt

[Sparkly]

37. "a woman is perceived differently."

No kidding.

[terisan]

39. You felt her pain. You identified. Do you write romance novels? nt

[Big Blue Marble]

51. I did not say I felt her pain. I said I noticed her anger.

So did a lot of other people and they did not like it. It is not working for her.

And thanks for the compliment.

[terisan]

43. She was accused of being angry when she called it the vast right wing conspiracy but she was right

[BenDavid]

48. And you are so right. HRC was court savy tonight. She picked up

on the obama edwards double team and scored over them with her fire and passion response to edwards i e obama.....
ABC's George judas maximus reminds me of dick morris. always having something negative to say about either clinton.

[earthlover]

56. George Judas? Oh fuckin please....

So now you are comparing Hillary to Jesus and Stephanopolous to the betrayer? Sick!

[Big Blue Marble]

52. She was right.

The Clintons are good at painting themselves as the victims. This time
it is not going to work.

[Samantha]

55. I don't think Hillary won the debate BUT

as someone who has repeatedly said for the last several years I will not vote for her (and no, I do not hate her; I just refuse to support her), I think she served herself well.

I think everyone on the stage "won" tonight. Each came with an agenda. Each served that agenda. It was obvious what each candidate attempted to present about him or herself, and I think each was successful.

Hillary's retort I thought was not shrill, and she did what she had to do in a manner that preserved her self-respect. She did not act like a woman, whatever that's supposed to means these days; she presented herself as a polished politician who could and would stand up for herself.

But I still will not vote for her.

I too thought it was apparent the moment Edwards came to catch Obama's back that some under the table deal must have been made. If that's true, how can one blame either of them? Hillary, over the lifetime of this campaign, asked for it. And so they delivered. Edwards would make a heck of an Attorney General. He is the anti-Gonzales.

It became clear during the discourse that Edwards had several prisms to this political personae that he wished to display, and that he did very well.

Obama made no mistakes that I saw and came across as poised, polished, cool and definitely in touch with the nuances of each issue. He seemed very presidential. I hope if he receives the nomination, he works with Edwards in his cabinet because both are very deserving. It does take a lot to run against the so-called Clinton machine; each decided to do so, and thus far, are bearing up well.

Richardson, I also thought, did himself well. He too had sides he wished to accent, and this he did. He also had the best line of the debate. He would make an excellent Secretary of State. Biden should be Secretary of Defense.

And Ron Paul should be Secretary of the Treasury! He wants to abolish the IRS so let the fireworks begin! He is the only candidate that covers extensively the dropping value of the dollar and the connection between this foolhardy war of Bush*s with the decline of the quality of life here at home. The distinction drawn between the cost of oil today and a decade (?)ago being the same with only the fluctuating value of the dollar making the difference is one all Americans need to focus on, and Ron Paul is the only candidate on either side that completely and thoroughly lines of up the domestic dominoes in a pattern the average American can understand. So the Dems say they will ask Republicans to serve in their cabinets, I say find a place for Ron Paul in Treasury (but don't let him shortchange Education).

Just my two quickly devaluating two cents -- Goodnight, kentuck.

[avrdream]

57. I agree but I'm ducking when I say it.

This place is crazy (and a bit unreasonable) lately.

[I was just saying...]

59. Hillary doesn't play to the 'nice girl' image and therefore is

pilloried by men who want to keep women in their places. Its true. Men who are
afraid of strong women have 'bust-a-ball phobia', completely debilitating to the
frontal cortex (i.e. higher brain function).

[suston96]

60. Somebody has to go after Obama....he is now the frontrunner - by one delegate...

...and why not go after Obama? Why is he different from any other candidate?

The candidate of change? What does that mean? What change? Change from the status quo?

Change? Status quo? What does all that mean? Hackneyed, overused memes that are never explained by politicians and the worst part - prospective voters never ask.

So, why not go after Obama? There must be a reason.

[Kermitt Gribble]

61. I agree, she was not shrill, unglued, unhinged, she didn't "lose it",

and wasn't a "bitch" like some have been saying. It was wonderful to see her show some passion. I think it was a toss-up between Edwards and Hillary.

[DemCam]

62. Glad you said it, Kentuck, cause its the truth. Sleep well.