I am Depressed, The Dems Candidates are Pro-War and Anti-Gay Now

[TheBigDemo]

It is hard to get excited about any candidate, except maybe Dennis Kucinich now that Clark is out. I am sorry but Kerry and Edwards are boring, very boring, candidates to me. They both voted for the war, and oppose gay rights. The two most important issues to me are no longer factors, the three remaining candidates Kerry, Edwards, and Bush, are all against gays and for the war.

SO I am feeling a deep sense of loss, not of just the candidate Clark, but of my party, and the issues that I fought hard for over the last 3 years.

The only issue I have left to hang on to is the issue of eliminating Bush out of the White House.

Neither Kerry or Edwards can ever represent me and what I believe in and consider important.

Clark was a good standing between DK and JK. That is where I stand on the issues. Now I feel like I am being pulled so far to the right that we are becoming Republican light.

Go Dennis!

[Dookus]

1. Neither Edwards nor Kerry

is pro-war or anti-gay.

[krkaufman]

2. At least they're BOTH not BOTH. n/t

[Dookus]

4. I don't know what that means.

[TheBigDemo]

5. I think your icon is correct, you are not listening to what they said

Kerry and Edwards voted FOR the war. Edwards says he proud of his vote for the war. They both do not support marriage for gays. That is anti-gay.

[molly]

7. Noone voted FOR the war - they voted for the war RESOLUTION

which forced idiot-boy to go to the UN - which they thought would not sanction the war. Pay attention.

[TheBigDemo]

20. So they were just outsmarted by Bush, I don't buy that argument, n/t

[molly]

21. I really don't give a damn!

[arwalden]

53. Time To Be Realistic...

You cling to the view that the invasion of Iraq could have been stopped by a vote in the Senate. It could not have been. Therefore the cry of "enabler" is hollow and false. The fact is that the invasion of Iraq is the responsibility of the criminals of the '00 Coup who conceived, pressed, and executed the act, and of no other. The only thing that "enabled" them is the structure and practice of governance. It has a nice sound, the line you press, but it is a false and misguided line, that will produce no good result.

You cling to the view that the invasion of Iraq could have been stopped by a vote in the Senate. It could not have been. Therefore the cry of "enabler" is hollow and false.

The fact is that the invasion of Iraq is the responsibility of the criminals of the 2000 Coup who conceived, pressed, and executed the act, and of no other. The only thing that "enabled" them is the structure and practice of governance. It has a nice sound, the line you press, but it is a false and misguided line, that will produce no good result.

I understand your sentiments and frustration, I really do. I urge you to act in a way that will remove the criminals from the White House, not in a way that empowers them

[Mile Hi]

61. Then why vote against Bush?

He's going to do what he wants anyway.

Hey what about Doctors? They should stop trying to save people that are going to die anyway.

Why vote against the IWR? To stand by your convictions. Senator Byrd was the only real man in the Senate during that vote.

The others were either for the war or too afraid to say no. Is that the kind of man you want as President?

Kerry: Gee, I don't think this war is right, but if I stand up and say no people will call me names. I mean look what happend to that Dixie Chick.

Either Kerry wanted the war and is lying now or Kerry didn't have the balls. You choose!!

[arwalden]

74. Please See My Response Below (Message #73)

-- Allen

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. More fun with typeface- they voted for the WAR resolution.

[Guaranteed]

95. LOL the WHAT?? resolution???

Holy SHIT how'd that word get in there?

[Dookus]

14. You are mistaken

A vote in favor of a resolution does not make one pro-war.

Not coming out in favor of federal gay marriage rights is not anti-gay.

The Right-wing that runs things now is pro-war and anti-gay. Worry about them.

[TheBigDemo]

24. Please, listen to yourself, you are talking doublespeak

If I said Senator Kerry and Edwards were against Blacks from having the right to marry but were pro-equal rights for Blacks you would accept that argument? Me either.

Edwards and Lieberman have both stated that they strongly support the war. Kerry has bounced all around on it, but he did vote for it.

I think if either Kerry or Edwards were pro-gay and anti-war they would have a voting record like Dennis Kucinich, not one opposite of it.

Go Dennis!

[arwalden]

52. People Who Think This Way Are Politically Naive

and idealistic.

The IWR was a meaningless exercise. No matter HOW the vote had turned out, the invasion of Iraq would have taken place, on the military and political schedule desired Bush* and his cabal.

The sole responsibility for the invasion of Iraq lies with the person who conceived, pressed, and executed the policy, and with no other person whatever.

The war-mongers are the CRIMINALS of the 2000 Coup, and nobody else.

The IWR had all the elements of a political trap. If enough Democrats had voted against it, then the ENTIRE PARTY would be slurred as being "soft" and seeking to tie the hands of Our Great Leader seeking to defend the country against Satan himself. The great majority of Americans would have rallied to that cry.

This line was launched anyway, but without the effect nationwide it would have had, had the vote been much closer.

The vote for the resolution preserved viability for campaign for higher office, and that is why Sen. Kerry, and Sen. Edwards, cast the votes they did.

They preserved themselves from widespread harm, which is the chief object of political calculation. Persons incapable of political calculation would do well to avoid the profession, and will experience difficulty in commenting on persons who are professionals at it.

[Forkboy]

59. Thanks for admitting that thousands of deaths have resulted

from "political calculation" meant to preserve "viability for campaign for higher office".

I'd say some people need to get more ideals instead of bitching about the presence of them in others.

[arwalden]

73. The War Would Have Happened REGARDLESS

to believe anything else is to be naive about the reality of how politics actually work. I encourage those who think in two-dimensions to wake up and to join the realistic world of grown-ups.

-- Allen

[Forkboy]

80. Exactly,it would have happened regardless

so they should have at least had the courage to stand up for what's right.

I encourage those think they that condescending attitudes help dems in any way join the realistic world of grown ups.

[arwalden]

86. It's Time For The Whiners And Foot-Stompers To Face Facts

and to admit that they cannot change the past. Kerry did not do what many here would have done had they been in his place. Drats! Bugger!

Reality Check: We have an imperfect front-runner. Not everyone agrees on Kerry's voting record. But most people can agree that Kerry (with all his imperfections) is a far better man than the criminal Bush* will ever be. Those who do not see (or who refuse to see) this simple fact are beyond redemption and beyond logic, reason, and facts.

Although we can't change the past, we CAN change the future by selecting WHICH ONE of the ONLY TWO men who stand a chance at being elected. People will either cast their vote in a way that helps the Democratic nominee defeat the criminal Bush*... or they will vote in a way that benefits the criminal Bush*.

Even the absence of a 'condescending attitude' that so many Bush supporters have difficulty with would have NO EFFECT on their pre-existing carved-in-stone decision to support a third-party candidate (or to vote for Bush directly).

People who find my attitude to be offensive should look the other way and NOT expect any change in my attitude within the foreseeable future.

Someone is bound to respond along the lines of: "Oh yeah? With an attitude like THAT, don't expect me to change my vote for you either, Allen! You just cost Kerry one more vote. I'm voting Nader... ALL BECAUSE OF YOU, ALLEN!" -- Yeah right! Like I'm gonna believe THAT crock o' shit. I cannot be held responsible for the actions of idiots.

-- Allen

[Forkboy]

88. Nice tangent

:eyes:

[tinanator]

79. what is the meaning of THOUSANDS of deaths?

quite right, meaningless.

[Forkboy]

82. I wonder if Allen would feel this way

if we had been bombing gays.

[Paschall]

43. Kerry has a "stellar record on gay rights"

Are you gay or just carrot-like, as per your avatar? Because if it's carrots, you've perhaps been underground too long. And if you're gay, you sure don't know who your friends and enemies are.

Kerry has had a perfect 100 percent scorecard rating from the Human Rights Coalition (a gay and lesbian advocacy group, in case you're unaware), for the last four sessions of Congress. ("His average score on the Human Rights Campaign's congressional scorecard, begun in the 101st Congress, is 96 percent...")

http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HRC/Get_Informed/Campaigns_and_Elections/Presidential_Candidates/2004_Candidates.htm

Kerry advocates equal benefits for partners in civil unions and marriages. The Human Rights Coalition says he has "a stellar record on gay rights."

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Presidential_Candidates&CONTENTID=12883&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

[arwalden]

51. Visit The HRC Website To View Kerry's Scorecard. He Gets 100%!!

His senate votes are in 100% agreement with the HRC position.

There are some folks who try to portray him as being ANTI-gay. That's just an IDIOTIC thing to say. It's untrue.

-- Allen

John Kerry: Three-Term Senator Has Stellar Record
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Presidential_Candidates&CONTENTID=12883&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm

Kerry: For the Record
-------------------

Workplace Discrimination
Co-sponsor of the Employ-ment Non-Discrimination Act, a bill that would ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Hate Crimes
Co-sponsor of a strong hate
crimes prevention measure, the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act.

HIV/AIDS
Co-sponsor of the Early Treatment for HIV Act, which would expand Medicaid to people living with HIV, and supports science-based prevention programs.

Gay Civil Rights Bill
Authored the Senate version of the Civil Rights Amendments Act of 1985,
a comprehensive gay civil rights bill that would have covered discrimination in employment, housing and credit.


http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Presidential_Candidates&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=50&ContentID=12738

[Fovea]

3. Go Dennis!

You have nailed both a problem, and its solution.

[AmyStrange]

6. I feel your pain..

politics as usual...

http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/

[MurikanDemocrat]

8. Oh knock that shit off. NONE of the candidates are pro-war or anti-gay

What bullshit.

Cry me a river.

[Desertrose]

11. no need to be rude

nice pill...I have a suggestion as to where you need to put it :)
DR

[TheBigDemo]

13. SO they voted FOR the war because they were really against it?

Explain that one.

Explain how they can be pro-gay when they support laws that keep them from enjoying the rights that even criminals enjoy.

[MurikanDemocrat]

15. Are you serious? If you are REALLY serious, I will answer your

question. These issues have been addressed ad nauseum.

I'll be back with an answer, if you SERIOUSLY think they are pro-war and anti-gay.

[TheBigDemo]

17. Yes, I do seriously think this. They voted that way! n/t

[JVS]

22. According to some, voting for the IRW was the only way to possibly...

force the President into attempting a multi-lateral solution. It doesn't ring true. After all, why would every Republican other than Lincoln Chaffee vote for something that could possibly hinder Bush?

[MurikanDemocrat]

25. Here ya go

Here's Kerry statement on suggestion of Massachusetts banning gay marriage (approx 3 weeks ago)

"Well, it depends entirely on the language of whether it permits civil union and partnership or not. I'm for civil union. I'm for partnership rights.

"I think what ought to condition this debate is not the term marriage as much as the rights that people are afforded," Kerry continued. "Obviously under the Constitution of the United States you need equal protection under the law. And I think equal protection means the rights that go with it. I think the word marriage kind of gets in the way of the whole debate, to be honest with you, because marriage to many people is obviously what is sanctified by a church. It's sacramental. Or by a synagogue or by a mosque or by whatever religious connotation it has. Clearly there's a separation of church and state here. ... Marriage is a separate institution. I think marriage is under the church, between a man and a woman, and I think there's a separate meaning to it."

Kerry statement yesterday on Bush proposal for Federal Amendment to the Constitution against gay marriage

“I believe President Bush is wrong. All Americans should be concerned when a President who is in political trouble tries to tamper with the Constitution of the United States at the start of his reelection campaign.

“This President can’t talk about jobs. He can’t talk about health care. He can’t talk about a foreign policy, which has driven away allies and weakened the United States, so he is looking for a wedge issue to divide the American people.

“While I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, for 200 years, this has been a state issue. I oppose this election year effort to amend the Constitution in an area that each state can adequately address, and I will vote against such an amendment if it comes to the Senate floor.

“I believe the best way to protect gays and lesbians is through civil unions. I believe the issue of marriage should be left to the states, and that the President of the United States should be addressing the central challenges where he has failed – jobs, health care, and our leadership in the world rather than once again seeking to drive a wedge by toying with the United States Constitution for political purposes.”

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0224b.html

Kerry Record of Working on Behalf of Gay and Lesbian Americans

With a 100% rating from the Human Rights Campaign since 1995, John Kerry is a powerful voice in the ongoing fight for civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans.

Ending Discrimination
One of John Kerry’s first acts as a U.S. Senator, in 1985, was to introduce a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He supports passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and has adopted a nondiscrimination policy for his Congressional offices based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

HIV/AIDS Funding
John Kerry cosponsored the first Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency Act (CARE) - which represents the largest discretionary federal investment in treating individuals with HIV and AIDS. Kerry also sponsored the Vaccines for the New Millennium Act, aimed at boosting contributions to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, a non-profit group working to promote development of an HIV vaccine in 2000. Kerry introduced the U.S. Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act, which would increase the U.S. government’s funding of international HIV/AIDS efforts from approximately $1.7 billion in 2003 to $1.9 billion in 2004. This effort led to the unanimous passage in May 2003 the United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act of 2003. AIDS activists characterized Kerry as one of Congress’s top leaders on HIV/AIDS policy.

Preventing Hate Crimes
John Kerry is an original cosponsor of the Hate Crimes Prevention bill, which would extend federal jurisdiction over serious, violent hate crimes. These would include crimes motivated by sexual orientation. Hate crimes rose a disturbing 3.5% from 1999 to 2000.

Protecting Gay and Lesbian Families
John Kerry believes that same-sex couples should be granted rights, including access to pensions, health insurance, family medical leave, bereavement leave, hospital visitation, survivor benefits, and other basic legal protections that all families and children need. He has supported legislation to provide domestic partners of federal employees the benefits available to spouses of federal employees. He was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

Lifting the Ban on Gays in the Military
John Kerry opposed the Clinton Administration’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Policy” He was one of a few senators to testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee and call on the President to rescind the ban on gay and lesbian service members.

Support for Civil Unions
John Kerry supports same-sex civil unions so that gay couples can benefit from the the health benefits, inheritance rights, or Social Security survivor benefits guaranteed for heterosexual couples.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/glbt /

Edwards position supporting civil unions and equal rights for gays is essentially the same


Dem Senators on IWR

The IWR was a vote that demanded a PROCESS from Bush, a PROCESS that didn’t exist before the IWR . That PROCESS included using the UN and the inspection process and building a coalition of allies to stand together against Saddam. The IWR provided that war was the absolute last resort.

It was Bush who ran roughshod over the inspections process. It was Bush who ran roughshod over the UN. It was Bush who ran roughshod over our allies, figuratively thumbed his nose at them, and pissed the rest of the world. It was Bush who LIED about intelligence and manufactured evidence. It was Bush who rushed to war. It was Bush who never had any intention of doing anything BUT rushing straight to war.

The responsibility for the Iraq war rests squarely with Bush and his merry band of neocon’s, whose singular purpose was to enrich themselves and their ilk by exploiting Iraqi oil, and not out of regard for the people of Iraq as they would have people believe.

None of the Democrats who voted for the IWR started this war. Bush did. Senator Kerry did not start this war. Bush did. the Dem Senators would NOT have started this war. But Bush did.

It’s time to quit letting Bush off the hook for this and assigning it to the Dem Senators. The buck stops with the bastard sitting in the White House. Not with those who gave Bush an outline to follow that Bush refused to consider, or those who had no real control over what Bush had already decided to do, with or without the IWR anyway.


To say ANY of the Dem candidates are PRO-war or ANTI-gay is pure bullshit hyperbole.

[Blue_Roses]

50. oh, come on

you know what you're doing. Many here have explained Kerry and Edwards view of the war RESOLUTION and I've even heard Kerry speak many times that he DID vote for the RESOLUTION which many think gave Bush the go-ahead. It didn't. Bush was suppose to take it to UN and DIDN'T, so your concerns about Kerry and Edwards are frivolous compared to what your concerns for Bush should be.

[SaddenedDem]

58. So, what did the Johns do?

Bush was suppose to take it to UN and DIDN'T

And when he DIDN'T go to the UN as they say he was supposed to, what did the Johns do about it?

Did they call for censure?

Did they call for impeachment?

Did they call for a resolution condeming Bush's behavior?

Did they do a damned thing when Bush went AGAINST the resolution they voted for?

HELL NO THEY DIDN'T!!!!! THEY DID NOTHING.

[BruinAlum]

63. When does your flight land??

Those are not reasonable expectations. They are absurd. The only thing that would satisfy you is political lunacy and suicide.

Totally unreasonable and ridiculous, and shows a complete lack of understanding of political and practical realities.

[SaddenedDem]

69. Frankly, your defense of it shows your lack of political acumen

It was really a simple question. A defense was offered for bad behavior by the Johns and I challenged it - you offer yet another bad defense.

A call for censure and/or impeachment would have been easy - especially knowing the republican controlled government would never allow it to go anywhere.

Did the Johns take advantage of that political opportunity? Oh hell no, they took NO action. They didn't even publicly condem his behavior. Hell, they STILL support it.

Their betrayal of the voters who support them shows a complete lack of courage.

[Blue_Roses]

64. let's get real here

"censure," "impeachment," ...you know as well as I do that in a GOP controlled house and Senate that would never happen and they would just be pissing in the wind with those efforts. As much as we BOTH hate the fact Bush went against the resolution, once he envoked it, there wasn't much they could have done until this war played itself out--realistically. Yeah, protesting, which I did and scream at the TV, when I saw "shock and awe," but Bush was gonna get his "war on," no matter what.

As heart-breaking as it is to see this useless war, it was gonna happen no matter what. I am so tired of the "why's" rather than "what do we do now." We have the advantage here and to continue to grip about how they voted isn't helping to prove our case.

I have a friend who I worry about everyday dying in this war, so I don't have time to worry about "why's."

[SaddenedDem]

67. Excuses, excuses

Keep excusing their bad behavior and you'll be worrying about more than ONE friend.

My worry about my 2 children who may be drafted into this war forces me to ask the hard questions and NOT excuse bad behavior by the Johns.

I'm sorry you think so little of your friend's life that you would excuse bad behavior for political expediency.

[Blue_Roses]

81. you have NO right

to judge my loyalty to my friend. You are way out of line on that one and borderline abusive. I guess I am a glutton for bad behavior 'cause I continue to respond to yours and yes, excuse yours too.

You WANT an issue to whine about. Sounds like you don't want a solution but just a whining board.

[Dhalgren]

72. Total bullshit.

If you went along with the Republicans and granted Bush his "cover" resolution, then you were supporting his war aims, period. At least have the backbone to own up to it! If you are against the equal rights of gay and lesbian couples to have legally documented marriages, then you are against their equal rights, period. We are all going to bring our vomit buckets with us and vote for your Democratic version of Bush, but don't try and piss on our necks and tell us it's raining.

[Blue_Roses]

84. what the hell are

you talking about?

[Paschall]

93. I object, Dhalgren

No one with a thimble-full of sense can reasonably look at Kerry or Edward's records and say they are "the Democratic version of Bush." That is demagoguery at its worse.

And I say that as a gay who opposed the military action not only in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan. I have been extremely pleased at the field of Democratic candidates this year. And I will not need any vomit bucket when I cast my vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever he may be--it's going to be an immense pleasure!

[Rationality]

18. Now I see where the "JK supporters are mean" arguement comes from (n/t)

Was all that really necessary?

[molly]

27. Mean?

we have a battle to win - please realize who the enemy really is.

[Rationality]

38. I understand that, but

If someone has some issues with a candidate, do you think the best way to approach it is by telling that guy to shut the fuck up? That's pretty much what the other poster with the chill pill was doing.

[BruinAlum]

44. It's appropriate when confronting insincere hyperbole

The premise for which this so called "depression" is based on is histrionic bullshit unsupported by the facts, and better resembles a pity-party because a certain candidate lost.

[edzontar]

49. Great point. I too have noticed Kerry support often seems tied to a strong

Attitude of self-righteous, a my way or the highway mentality.

Kerry supporters--at least many on ths board--have acquired a reputation for meanness, anger, and intolerance.

[Dhalgren]

75. It's because they have difficulties with the lying.

It's one thing to say, "Yeah, Kerry voted for the resolution because of political considerations and because he didn't think Bush would actually go to war"; but it's hard to say that voting for Bush's cover was "right" from a moral or ethical stand. So, they get pissy. They say Kerry is for equal rights for gays, just not "full" equal rights and that should be enough. When someone points out that that doesn't make sense - pissy again, because they know it doesn't make sense.

[Snivi Yllom]

68. ok Kerry is not anti-gay, what does this make him?

"I believe... that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's my belief. If the amendment provides for partnership and civil union... that would be a good amendment."

So Kerry has the SAME position on gay amrriage as Bush.

[Paschall]

94. Sure, fella!

Are you gay by any chance? Or just sharpening up your black ops skills? :shrug:

[Desertrose]

9. stick with Dennis...

you won't be sorry...
He voted the best way for the people on both issues.

I am so sorry Kerry or Edwards don't seem to feel bad for voting for the war....

and what is the big deal about letting anyone who wants to, to be able to get married....no one should be able to say its right for one group of people and wromg fro another...now THAT is BULLSHIT!

Dennis at lest gets that we all have the same tights to the same things...ow we should anyhow...

Peace
DR

[TheBigDemo]

19. I will, don't worry. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

10. Oh goody; another subtlety challenged post

Somewhere between putting bronze statues of gay historical figures on every corner and slapping pink triangles on people is a whole nuanced world in which most of us live.

These guys aren't "anti-gay" or "pro-war". You're being played like a fine instrument, and the fiddler's a Republican.

Bringing this issue to the fore right now is colossally destructive.

Now that you're pissed off, try this one on for size: gays are the only minority group that have experienced a net gain in rights during this dark age of an administration. The overwhelming sweep of history is toward more acceptance for you, and even lately, with the Supreme Court ruling, it's getting better. So, as the rest of us suffer, you want to risk the whole damned world because things aren't improving fast enough for you.

If I can keep quiet on the subject of religion, you should be able to control yourself on this.

Go ahead and vote your conscience in the primary; I hope you think Kerry's a better candidate than Edwards, because that's what you'll be helping to happen. In the general election, though, please vote for the Democratic Nominee.

[TheBigDemo]

16. "These guys aren't "anti-gay" or "pro-war"." HUH?

If they are not Pro-War, how come they voted for it? Oh, I am being played by the Repukes, thats right. They forced Edwards and Kerry to vote for it and brag about it. Gotcha, thanks for the clearing that up for me.

[Old and In the Way]

12. My advice to cure your depression?

Spend some quality time over at FR...that'll make you feel better about our candidates.

[MurikanDemocrat]

23. Here ya go BigDemo

Here's Kerry statement on suggestion of Massachusetts banning gay marriage (approx 3 weeks ago)

"Well, it depends entirely on the language of whether it permits civil union and partnership or not. I'm for civil union. I'm for partnership rights.

"I think what ought to condition this debate is not the term marriage as much as the rights that people are afforded," Kerry continued. "Obviously under the Constitution of the United States you need equal protection under the law. And I think equal protection means the rights that go with it. I think the word marriage kind of gets in the way of the whole debate, to be honest with you, because marriage to many people is obviously what is sanctified by a church. It's sacramental. Or by a synagogue or by a mosque or by whatever religious connotation it has. Clearly there's a separation of church and state here. ... Marriage is a separate institution. I think marriage is under the church, between a man and a woman, and I think there's a separate meaning to it."

Kerry statement yesterday on Bush proposal for Federal Amendment to the Constitution against gay marriage

“I believe President Bush is wrong. All Americans should be concerned when a President who is in political trouble tries to tamper with the Constitution of the United States at the start of his reelection campaign.

“This President can’t talk about jobs. He can’t talk about health care. He can’t talk about a foreign policy, which has driven away allies and weakened the United States, so he is looking for a wedge issue to divide the American people.

“While I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, for 200 years, this has been a state issue. I oppose this election year effort to amend the Constitution in an area that each state can adequately address, and I will vote against such an amendment if it comes to the Senate floor.

“I believe the best way to protect gays and lesbians is through civil unions. I believe the issue of marriage should be left to the states, and that the President of the United States should be addressing the central challenges where he has failed – jobs, health care, and our leadership in the world rather than once again seeking to drive a wedge by toying with the United States Constitution for political purposes.”

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0224b.html

Kerry Record of Working on Behalf of Gay and Lesbian Americans

With a 100% rating from the Human Rights Campaign since 1995, John Kerry is a powerful voice in the ongoing fight for civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans.

Ending Discrimination
One of John Kerry’s first acts as a U.S. Senator, in 1985, was to introduce a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He supports passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and has adopted a nondiscrimination policy for his Congressional offices based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

HIV/AIDS Funding
John Kerry cosponsored the first Ryan White Comprehensive AIDS Resources Emergency Act (CARE) - which represents the largest discretionary federal investment in treating individuals with HIV and AIDS. Kerry also sponsored the Vaccines for the New Millennium Act, aimed at boosting contributions to the International AIDS Vaccine Initiative, a non-profit group working to promote development of an HIV vaccine in 2000. Kerry introduced the U.S. Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act, which would increase the U.S. government’s funding of international HIV/AIDS efforts from approximately $1.7 billion in 2003 to $1.9 billion in 2004. This effort led to the unanimous passage in May 2003 the United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, TB, and Malaria Act of 2003. AIDS activists characterized Kerry as one of Congress’s top leaders on HIV/AIDS policy.

Preventing Hate Crimes
John Kerry is an original cosponsor of the Hate Crimes Prevention bill, which would extend federal jurisdiction over serious, violent hate crimes. These would include crimes motivated by sexual orientation. Hate crimes rose a disturbing 3.5% from 1999 to 2000.

Protecting Gay and Lesbian Families
John Kerry believes that same-sex couples should be granted rights, including access to pensions, health insurance, family medical leave, bereavement leave, hospital visitation, survivor benefits, and other basic legal protections that all families and children need. He has supported legislation to provide domestic partners of federal employees the benefits available to spouses of federal employees. He was one of 14 Senators -- and the only one up for reelection in 1996 -- to oppose the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA).

Lifting the Ban on Gays in the Military
John Kerry opposed the Clinton Administration’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Policy” He was one of a few senators to testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee and call on the President to rescind the ban on gay and lesbian service members.

Support for Civil Unions
John Kerry supports same-sex civil unions so that gay couples can benefit from the the health benefits, inheritance rights, or Social Security survivor benefits guaranteed for heterosexual couples.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/glbt /

Edwards position supporting civil unions and equal rights for gays is essentially the same


Dem Senators on IWR

The IWR was a vote that demanded a PROCESS from Bush, a PROCESS that didn’t exist before the IWR . That PROCESS included using the UN and the inspection process and building a coalition of allies to stand together against Saddam. The IWR provided that war was the absolute last resort.

It was Bush who ran roughshod over the inspections process. It was Bush who ran roughshod over the UN. It was Bush who ran roughshod over our allies, figuratively thumbed his nose at them, and pissed the rest of the world. It was Bush who LIED about intelligence and manufactured evidence. It was Bush who rushed to war. It was Bush who never had any intention of doing anything BUT rushing straight to war.

The responsibility for the Iraq war rests squarely with Bush and his merry band of neocon’s, whose singular purpose was to enrich themselves and their ilk by exploiting Iraqi oil, and not out of regard for the people of Iraq as they would have people believe.

None of the Democrats who voted for the IWR started this war. Bush did. Senator Kerry did not start this war. Bush did. the Dem Senators would NOT have started this war. But Bush did.

It’s time to quit letting Bush off the hook for this and assigning it to the Dem Senators. The buck stops with the bastard sitting in the White House. Not with those who gave Bush an outline to follow that Bush refused to consider, or those who had no real control over what Bush had already decided to do, with or without the IWR anyway.


To say ANY of the Dem candidates are PRO-war or ANTI-gay is pure bullshit hyperbole.

[TheBigDemo]

28. "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman"--JK

That is not a pro-gay statement. I do not see how it can be see that way. This are the exact same words as Governor Arnold, exactly the same way.

"The IWR provided that war was the absolute last resort."-JE

Total bullshit. Sorry, but if that was the case, well we would not have gone to war because war never was an absolute last resort.

Another piece of advise, your candidate should not have to produce a page long explanation on why they voted they way they did and to explain it.


GO DK

[MurikanDemocrat]

31. That's bullshit.

Niether of those statements make them PRO-war or ANTI-gay. You are avoiding obvious evidence to the contrary.

Just admit there is nothing either could say to satisfy you. This is nothing but a sour grapes thread.

[TheBigDemo]

34. "Just admit there is nothing either could say to satisfy you"

Yes there is.

Kerry and Edwards could say, I support gay marriage and equal rights for gays and lesbians, and all Americans. Just like DK does.

They could say, I messed up, I should not have voted for the war, I am sorry. That would make it great and all good.

Excluding Gays and Lesbians from marriage makes you anti-gay. You are opposed to Law abiding, hardworking, tax-paying, Americans from getting the same rights that even criminals enjoy, Marriage.

That is WRONG. You can spin any way, but you still spell it the same way W-R-O-N-G!

And you know it in your heart and in your head.

[MurikanDemocrat]

36. Then vote for Bush or Nader and spare us the bullshit.

Easy solution.

[TheBigDemo]

41. Speaking to someone that doesn't read my original post

That is not my point. Of course I will vote for Kerry. Just like I would vote McCain or Arnold over Bush or would choose getting slashed with a piece of broken glass over sliding down a giant razor and into the Salt Lake.

That was not the point of my post. The point of my post was that Kerry and Edwards are not as different from Bush as I wish they were and it makes me sad.

It is clear you cannot properly articulate your positions.

[Rationality]

40. Lesser of three evils for you...

Yeah, it is wrong, but look what's left. Civil unions w/ Kerry, state choice w/ Edwards, or the FMA and the middle finger from Bush.

Whoever you want in the primary, but realize the possiblities...

[Rationality]

39. I must agree, to an extent

I know Edwards said he would leave the issue up to the states, and both would oppose the FMA. Not as firm as, say, someone saying marriage between man and man/woman and woman should be federally protected, but clearly not the Bush/Christian Coliation stance. Still, they're kinda tapdancing around it.

[Snivi Yllom]

76. a more recent quote by Kerry yesterday calling the ammendment good

http://www.news24houston.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=24437

"If the amendment provides for partnership and civil union, which I believe is the appropriate way to extend rights, that would be a good amendment. I think that you need to have civil unions," presidential candidate John Kerry says.



So Kerry has the same position as Bush

[Chicago Democrat]

29. Kerry is spot on!

Civil Union with EVERY BENEFIT is a very worthy goal and fully attainable. Calling it marriage mixes it all up with religion; he's right.

Civil Unions are not equal due to tax benefits given to Married people. That should be addressed. Also issues like visiting in hospital and inheritence rights should be made easier for gay couples right away.

So instead of bashing Kerry for not embracing a completely unpopular and rather hot-button politcal issue liek gay marriage; why dont we get him to work for -attainable- gay civil union rights. Federal rights,that no state can take away?

[TheBigDemo]

33. So what you are really saying is "Separate but Equal" is fair and

reasonable. And that Gays should learn their place in society and be thankful for the crumbs that society is willing to give them.

If women are allowed to vote in local elections only, they should just be thankful because it is better than not being able to vote at all?

Sorry, I don't agree with your logic.

[OneBlueSky]

42. it may not be logical, but it's political reality . . .

supporting gay marriage outright isn't going to get anyone elected in 2004 . . . so you either compromise and have a chance of winning, or you don't compromise and guarantee a loss . . . I'll take the former . . . and yes, I'm gay . . . and my take is we have a hell of a lot better shot at gaining equal rights (even if they are "separate") with Kerry than with Bush . . . and the distinction between marriage and civil unions with full rights is a distinction without a difference anyhow . . .

[Beer Snob-50]

71. Geez, they are not saying separate but equal!

The term "Marriage" is the religious term for "Civil Union". You are pissing in teh wind if you think you can change religious philosphy through civil law. John Kerry is giving you everything you want regarding gay rights!

[Dhalgren]

77. There are churches, right now, today, that will marry gays or

lesbians. Can those unions be called "marriages"? If all you are looking at is whether or not a church will perform the cerimony, then that is different. Call all unions conducted outside of a church sanctioned cerimony "civil unions", be they gay or straight - and all unions conducted within a church sanctioned cerimony a "marriage", straight or gay, and there would be no problem.

[diamondsoul]

78. Nope he isn't.

He's not removing religion from law as he should and is in fact encouraging those who want to keep it in the law.

[molly]

30. That's a great post -

"The IWR was a vote that demanded a PROCESS from Bush, a PROCESS that didn’t exist before the IWR . That PROCESS included using the UN and the inspection process and building a coalition of allies to stand together against Saddam. The IWR provided that war was the absolute last resort."

I can't understand all the whining and finger-pointing.

[MurikanDemocrat]

32. It's a pity party thread. Again!

:eyes:

[AntiCoup2K4]

66. Kerry's statement on just about everything....

"Well, it depends...."

Waffleboy can't take a stand on anything. How the hell can such a wishy washy opportunist possibly be considered "presidential"??

I can't stand Joe Lieberman's positions 95% of the time, but I can respect the fact that he believes in them. Maybe the DLC should have gone with Holy Joe after all? His foreign policy would have been just as bad as Kerry's, but at least he would have been honest about it.

[corporatewhore]

26. They are both pro Imperalism but i hear that imperalism is an attractive

quality

[corporatewhore]

35. only stupid candidates left they trusted w w/lives of our soliders

Ho fucking stupid or spineless does one have to be to trust bush with the lives of our troops and our bill of rights??!!?!? not a mark of a great leader if you ask me

[Lexingtonian]

37. aww, you poor thing

It sounds to me that you have no sense of subtlety, a need to be righteous rather than practical, and on top of that a need to be catered to.

I don't think you actually know Clark's position on either matter, from what you tell, either.

Kerry and Edwards are smack in the middle of where the Democratic electorate that will actually turn out is. Given that it (this electorate) is going to slide one way or the other over the course of the next several months, it turns out in practice that the electorate forgives a candidate that arrives at their position a little late if he had latitude earlier; what they don't like is a candidate getting there first or leaping the wrong way and lecturing them about it. So there is a lot of latitude in their statements, perfectly tolerant of gay marriage should their voters move in that direction.

Oscar Wilde said that critics are always unhappy because artists set out to please audiences and themselves, not them. Always a good point to keep in mind when rejecting some endeavor.

[union_maid]

45. Sane gay activists disagree

At least my gay activist - highly effective gay activist - friends disagree. I asked. They said that civil unions were bottom line. Marriage, icing on the wedding cake. The Democratic candidate, whomever it is, has their full and enthusistic support. They fully understand how the Bush administration is planning to use this issue as a wedge and are way too smart to take that bait.

Edwards does seem to be pro-war. That bothers me. In every other way I like him very much, but his stance on the war has bothered and surprised me from the start. Not so Kerry's. The IWR vote wasn't something I would hold against anyone by itself. The country was still very much demanding bipartisanship and not to give this administration the leeway to prove itself would have been unacceptible to the electorate at the time. Kerry came out early and strong when the administration demonstrated that it didn't know what it was doing and that it had an agenda beyond and besides any WMD in Iraq.

[meg]

55. My heterosexual friends disagree

Speaking for my heterosexual friends, they don't care too much about gay marriage and just wish we would shut up wait our turn.

<sarcasm off>

[CWebster]

46. Don't vote for them then. nt

[maddezmom]

47. Clark was for civil unions, not marriage n/t

[diamondsoul]

57. Was he??

I got the impression that was one of the issues he wasn't really firm on yet, as in still considering his own position. (and why the hell do some people think carefully considering positions before making a stand is a bad thing anyway?!)

I also got the impression Clark's position was closer to civil unions across the board for all because anything else would be seperate but equal and still by definition unjust.

[TheBigDemo]

90. Clark was for getting rid of Don't ask Don't Tell, he was against

the war. Yes, I know not perfect. He was for Civil Unions all over the country as well, not state by state. But he is the closest to Kucinich that was placing close to Kerry and won a state. And Clark could have won the general election.

[diamondsoul]

91. That was my take on him too.

It's all good and we welcome your help if you want to work at getting Kucinich the nod. Chin up, we're not finished yet.:toast:

[robbedvoter]

60. Clark agreed with Mass Supremes decision - consistent

he said he is for whatever license would insure the equality he wants. States , churches to decide which - if Massachusets decided marriage, than marriage is fine by him. Wanted to reform the don't ask, don't tell to a less discriminatory formula after the Uk system.

[diamondsoul]

65. I wish he'd been as strong on the DADT

policy as he was in Uniform. He was clear then that he absolutely hated it as policy. The way he came across was dump the whole thing and let homosexuals serve without repercussion at all.

The thing most don't get about the ban on gays in the military is that at one time it had a purpose. It was sound policy for its time because homosexuality was a very secretive thing back then. You just didn't talk about it openly and you certainly didn't reveal your orientation in polite society. That left homosexual people open to blackmail should they be discovered and was a threat to national security.

That situation no longer applies as more and more homosexual people are open about it and society is gradually reaching a point of acceptance *note I said gradually and reaching, not that we're anywhere near THERE yet, but it is coming. The more we as a society push acceptance of differences in our policy the faster we'll get to societal acceptance on an overall basis. We HAVE to keep pushing the limits of acceptance in order to reach the point we are all striving towards. It's a fluid thing requiring the efforts of the masses, and at one point I viewed Wes Clark as one of us. I hope he still is but he's not as strong on the subject as he once seemed.

[MoonRiver]

48. I don't understand the negativity.

Both Edwards and Kerry are excellent speakers, especially Kerry, imho. I really regret that Kerry got snookered into the IWR, but he has made it clear that he only voted for it to give jr. permission to go to the U.N., NOT start a pre-emptive war. Unfortunately, that one vote has reduced his ability to attack * on Iraq during the GE. However, * is the one who gave the orders to invade, and he's responsible for the nightmare we're in over there. Regarding, gay rights, how can you state that either man is against them? They may not be openly promoting marriage between gays, but they're for civil unions, and would obviously not block any state's rights to define the issue. Their positions are in start contrast to those of the Moron, who wants to alter our Constitution to promote his fascist, talibanesque agenda.

:shrug:

[meg]

54. We're back to the lesser of two evils with respect

to the war and gay marriage.

[diamondsoul]

56. The response to your comments

shows exactly why so many Kucinich supporters may well opt not to back Senator Kerry.

Unity my rear-end! Do you all really think verbally slapping people in the face for questioning positions on issues near and dear to their hearts is the way to convince them to support your candidate???

And please spare me the "cut off your nose to spite your face" bull-shit. It's got nothing to do with spite, it's about not liking where the party has been going for the past decade. It's about not wanting to be bullied and ignored any longer. It's about not being taken for granted and expected to be loyal to people who spit in our faces.

For the record- TBG, I used to be very pleased with Kerry's record on gay rights. When he came out in opposition to gay marriage, I was completely disappointed. To his supporters if you don't get why his statement "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman." is enough to make me ill and seriously piss me off, then there's no hope for you. If you think it's acceptable for a f*cking public servant to tell me I have to live according to what he believes, you're completely LOST on the founding principles of this country!

The IWR, oh piss off with this "forced Bush" crap! They didn't "force Bush" and nobody has ever said that except whacked out Kerry supporters trying to explain away the unacceptable condoning of Bush's warmongering! They trusted George FUCKING BUSH! You can't explain that away and you can't make people feel better about it by being as verbally abusive as possible.

[latebloomer]

70. They are "electable"

which to me means they are corrupt.

Yes, they would be an improvement on Bush. Yes, of course I will vote for one of them-- tho thank Goddess I will still have Kucincih to vote for in the primary.

But this IWR stuff, in particular, is totally disingenuous. Edwards still seems to think the war was a good idea. Kerry is spinning his support of it. He voted for it because it was the politically safe thing to do. Period. And thousands of people are dead as a result.

[Ficus]

83. anti-gay?

I don't really believe that.

Jesse Helms trying to pull funding from agencies that have gay employees, that's anti-gay. Being for civil unions rather than marrige, is not anti-gay. It may not be the position you and I agree with 100%, but not anti-gay, by a long shot.

[diamondsoul]

85. anti-equality then?

or how about pro-religion-in-law?

Sorry Ficus this position pisses me off, and I'm not even gay.

[Ficus]

89. we have a right to be not happy about it

I know, but I just think that it's unfair to use the term "anti-gay," that's all.

[diamondsoul]

92. Valid point, I suppose-

but if you're gay and your position is marriage rights then it might appear to be anti-gay, wouldn't it?

[GreenPartyVoter]

87. Yeah, I know all too well the pain of not having an exciting Dem to vote 4

Am so glad Dennis is running.

And I look forward to the day when we have election reform that will enbable more progressives to get on the ballot and actually have a shot at winning.

[jsw_81]

96. This is nothing more than a pathetic GOP attempt to depress Democrats

[dpbrown]

97. The only way to keep these issues in the Dem Party is vote Kucinich

Only Dennis was against the USAPATRIOT Act and the Iraq invasion from the start.

Only Dennis is in favor of federal protection for all loving married couples.

Only Dennis is upholding true progressive liberal Democratic positions.

Only Dennis represents a choice to move ahead instead of being stuck in the mess Bush, Bush, and Reagan put us in.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota