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ncteechur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 12:22 PM
Original message
Why Obama??
I've heard the debates. I have been a Edwards supporter. Not so much Hillary although I would vote for her in the general. But why should I change to support Obama? The populist middle-class message from Edwards seems better. I like his stand against lobbys and PACS, and I like his health care plan Much better. Obama seems to be too general in his proposals. I don't think his health care plan goes far enough. I don't think his education plan, although I like what I heard, goes into specifics enough. Edwards has laid out specific elements of his proposals. Obama needs to do the same IMHO.
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aquaman11173 Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. YOU SHOULDN"T!!!
You should stay with Edwards, you are absolutely correct about John Edwards.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. I know, no specifics at all
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. If you like Edwards, there's no reason to change
support who your heart tells you to support.

Edwards is a nice candidate, if you like that sort of populist rhetoric. I can see why it's appealing.

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aquaman11173 Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. populist rhetoric?
better populist than EMPTY RHETORIC! If I here Obama say "give it up" one more time I'm going to vomit. I thought pep rallies were only held at high schools.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. well fine
go be happy with your laundry list of wants and needs and call me when Edwards delivers on any of them.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Its all right on his site just like Edwards
and has been for a long time. Take a look.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
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forsberg Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Because people are voting with their hearts right now and not thinking about electability
Barack Obama will get mauled in the GE against any republican.

Were going to wake up the day after election, scratch our heads again and say "An inexperienced black man...what were we thinking...they got more than half of America to believe he's a muslim sympathizer!"

just like with Kerry

"A dour, boring, Mass. liberal....what were we thinking?"
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. yes I'm sure you know better than every poll that's been done on potential GE matchups
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forsberg Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. guess what, Kerry led Bush in potential GE matchups
Even Dean led Bush!
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Guess what - Kerry won the 2004 election. Links included.
Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
By Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Rolling Stone
Thursday 01 June 2006
Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted - enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.
The complete article, with Web-only citations, follows. For more, see exclusive documents, sources, charts and commentary.
Like many Americans, I spent the evening of the 2004 election watching the returns on television and wondering how the exit polls, which predicted an overwhelming victory for John Kerry, had gotten it so wrong. By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush - and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded. Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush's victory as nut cases in "tinfoil hats," while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election. The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as "conspiracy theories," <1> and The New York Times declared that "there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale." <2>
But despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad <3> never received their ballots - or received them too late to vote <4> - after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations. <5> A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states, <6> was discovered shredding Democratic registrations. <7> In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes, <8> malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots. <9> Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment - roughly one for every 100 cast. <10>
The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count. <11>
Any election, of course, will have anomalies. America's voting system is a messy patchwork of polling rules run mostly by county and city officials. "We didn't have one election for president in 2004," says Robert Pastor, who directs the Center for Democracy and Election Management at American University. "We didn't have fifty elections. We actually had 13,000 elections run by 13,000 independent, quasi-sovereign counties and municipalities."
But what is most anomalous about the irregularities in 2004 was their decidedly partisan bent: Almost without exception they hurt John Kerry and benefited George Bush. After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004. Across the country, Republican election officials and party stalwarts employed a wide range of illegal and unethical tactics to fix the election. A review of the available data reveals that in Ohio alone, at least 357,000 voters, the overwhelming majority of them Democratic, were prevented from casting ballots or did not have their votes counted in 2004 <12> - more than enough to shift the results of an election decided by 118,601 votes. <13> (See Ohio's Missing Votes) In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots. <14> And that doesn't even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes - enough to have put John Kerry in the White House. <15>
"It was terrible," says Sen. Christopher Dodd, who helped craft reforms in 2002 that were supposed to prevent such electoral abuses. "People waiting in line for twelve hours to cast their ballots, people not being allowed to vote because they were in the wrong precinct - it was an outrage. In Ohio, you had a secretary of state who was determined to guarantee a Republican outcome. I'm terribly disheartened."
Indeed, the extent of the GOP's effort to rig the vote shocked even the most experienced observers of American elections. "Ohio was as dirty an election as America has ever seen," Lou Harris, the father of modern political polling, told me. "You look at the turnout and votes in individual precincts, compared to the historic patterns in those counties, and you can tell where the discrepancies are. They stand out like a sore thumb."
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/61/20209




The 2004 US Elections:
The Mother of all Vote Frauds


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html






New Data Shows Widespread Vote Manipulations in 2004
By Peter Phillips

In the fall of 2001, after an eight-month review of 175,000 Florida ballots never counted in the 2000 election, an analysis by the National Opinion Research Center confirmed that Al Gore actually won Florida and should have been President. However, coverage of this report was only a small blip in the corporate media as a much bigger story dominated the news after September 11, 2001.
New research compiled by Dr. Dennis Loo with the University of Cal Poly Pomona now shows that extensive manipulation of non-paper-trail voting machines occurred in several states during the 2004 election.
The facts are as follows:
In 2004 Bush far exceeded the 85% of registered Florida Republican votes that he got in 2000, receiving more than 100% of the registered Republican votes in 47 out of 67 Florida counties, 200% of registered Republicans in 15 counties, and over 300% of registered Republicans in 4 counties. Bush managed these remarkable outcomes despite the fact that his share of the crossover votes by registered Democrats in Florida did not increase over 2000, and he lost ground among registered Independents, dropping 15 points. We also know that Bush "won" Ohio by 51-48%, but statewide results were not matched by the court-supervised hand count of the 147,400 absentee and provisional ballots in which Kerry received 54.46% of the vote. In Cuyahoga County, Ohio the number of recorded votes was more than 93,000 greater than the number of registered voters.
More importantly national exit polls showed Kerry winning in 2004. However, It was only in precincts where there were no paper trails on the voting machines that the exit polls ended up being different from the final count. According to Dr. Steve Freeman, a statistician at the University of Pennsylvania, the odds are 250 million to one that the exit polls were wrong by chance. In fact, where the exit polls disagreed with the computerized outcomes the results always favored Bush - another statistical impossibility. .
Dennis Loo writes, "A team at the University of California at Berkeley, headed by sociology professor Michael Hout, found a highly suspicious pattern in which Bush received 260,000 more votes in those Florida precincts that used electronic voting machines than past voting patterns would indicate compared to those precincts that used optical scan read votes where past voting patterns held."
There is now strong statistical evidence of widespread voting machine manipulation occurring in US elections since 2000. Coverage of the fraud has been reported in independent media and various websites. The information is not secret. But it certainly seems to be a taboo subject for the US corporate media.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0813-29.htm
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forsberg Donating Member (221 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Gore won in 2000, but Kerry was beaten soundly in 04
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. You can promote your candidate without tearing down others n/t
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