For all of you that say Obama has no substance, I ask you

[calteacherguy]

what's your evidence?

Either put up or shut up. Your claim is getting tired and has no basis in reality. It's nothing more than more negative BS that will accomplish absolutely nothing except turn more folks away from whatever other candidate you support and towards Barack.

Give it up. Think of something new.

[laureloak]

1. I can't get anything out of his speeches. Just talk.

Now, you put up or shut up.

[calteacherguy]

2. And you get something out of Clinton's, or Edwards?

Give me a break. Open your eyes and ears.

Obama has more substance than any of them, that's why he's ahead and has the momentum.

[DaveinMD]

6. Edwards seems to talk about real issues

and Obama using vague catch phrases. I don't think that makes him a bad person. I'm just looking for more.

Last night's Edwards speech was about everything that makes me a Democrat, while Obama gave an uplifting talk that I didn't get much out of.

[calteacherguy]

14. Bull.

Obama talks about real issues all the time, as does Edwards.

[laureloak]

22. No bull. Edwards is crystal clear on his positions. Too bad

you won't take your fingers out of your ears long enough to listen to him.

[calteacherguy]

25. I agree Edwards is crystal clear on his positions, so is Obama. nt

[laureloak]

30. Obama is a muddy river of talk. He never says anything.

Just empty words.

[DaveinMD]

24. did he last night

All I heard was hope, change, no red states and blue states. That's a lot of buzzwords to me and little specifics.

[calteacherguy]

28. There were plenty of specifics in that speech, besides

it was a victory speech not a powerpoint presentation of detailed policy proposals. No candidate has detailed policy speeches. Go to his website and read his health plan if you want specifics.

Speeches are not the venue for those kinds of detailed specifics. He was plenty specific.

It was speech for the history books!

[laureloak]

33. Name that "specific"!

[DaveinMD]

35. well I disagree

and so did my wife. I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I'll be happy to vote for him and November and do my part to help him win. I just feel a passion for Edwards because he speaks about the stuff that makes me a Democrat.

[frogcycle]

75. you heard it here

Obama is history!

:rofl:

[pauldg0]

86. I agree.............

He gives solutions, others don't.

Clinton really said nothing and Obama wasn't far behind her.

[aquart]

10. Convincing our ill-educated young that he's the second coming is hard?

You see substance. I see technique.

[calteacherguy]

23. You call forty-somethings the "ill-educated young?"

Try again.

[laureloak]

27. Excuse me, but Edwards took that age group, handily I might add.

[calteacherguy]

29. He did not...look it up. nt

[laureloak]

44. I did. Edwards took my age group, the learned.

[emilyg]

70. His major support was 19-29 age group.

[laureloak]

26. No other group is more easily bandwagoned than the youth.

[calteacherguy]

32. Do all those under 50 fit your definition of "youth?" nt

[laureloak]

46. Stretching things more than a wee bit aren't we?

[calteacherguy]

52. No, he leads in that demographic.

Solidly.

[madrchsod]

63. oh i did`t read your insult to the youth of america

i guess it`s "young people are to stupid to vote night" because they didn`t vote the way you wanted them to.

[madrchsod]

61. "Convincing our ill-educated young that he's the second coming is hard?

...that`s one of the more insulting posts about young people i have read on du.

[frogcycle]

73. i'm groping around

trying to see where you offered any substance. One tiny shred of evidence.

All I see is does not! does too! nyahhh nyahhhh

You insist that people "put up" to prove a negative. Ok, there is no substance over there , or over there, or under there. When he makes concrete statements defining specific plans to accomplish specific things, that will be substance. Last time I checked "hope" was not a substance.

[Windy]

What in the world could you possibly get in the way of substance from any of the candidates stump?

the answer: You can't!!!

do you lack the intellectual curiousity to find out what each candidate stands for past the soundbite?

I really don't understand your ridiculous stance.

[laureloak]

12. Obviously you haven't listened to them. Only Obama is vague.

[calteacherguy]

64. You are right. Edwards was much less vague in his war-mongering.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3956050&mesg_id=3956050

[calteacherguy]

34. Exactly. They are making a strawman argument. nt

[K Gardner]

21. A speech is, by its very definition, talk. Which is the way we express.. ideas and thoughts..

and in order to be processed, they must be heard, as in entering via the auditory canal and well, you know the rest.

If you want a dissection of issues, go to the website. That's what I do with JE and Obama. I understand it's difficult to hear anything via the MSM. They don't WANT us to know shit. We have to work to know something about our candidates unless we just buy the talking points that the other camps put out. It's difficult for a candidate to get across an entire platform in a 20 minute stump speech. You can't even begin to dissect the intricacies of healthcare in two days. If you want substance, you'll have to look for it from ALL of them. It won't be spoon fed to you. That's not the business of show business/politics, unfortunately.

CSpan, You Tube.. all excellent venues to hear them speak on any issue. I'm not sure what the beef is.

[laureloak]

47. I can't go to a website to understand my president.

If he can't communicate his ideas effectively then I can't follow him. And that is why Obama is NO Bill Clinton!

[Joe the Revelator]

3. People have been doing a lot of spinning with little facts to back it up

[laureloak]

15. Hell, there aren't any facts when the guy doesn't say anything.

[calteacherguy]

19. More total BS...."doesn't say anything"

Open your ears, they appear to be plugged.

[laureloak]

38. Same buzzwords over and over. What is he going to do if elected

[calteacherguy]

45. Read. Listen. Learn.

Take an adult literacy class if you need to. All you are doing is mouthing cliches like "same old buzzwords." Is that all you've got?

[laureloak]

49. Communicate if you have a message. Obama doesn't

communicate crap. He just drones on and on with his flowery talk.

[nashville_brook]

72. should i associate this condescension with "the Obama campaign" ??

you're not doing your favorite candidate any favors by being ugly on their behalf. what a turn off.

[frogcycle]

81. words

sound and fury signifying nothing

moving your mouth and emitting words does not constitute saying anything

[aquart]

4. Uh, you guys want OUR votes.

But you want US to convince YOU? That's so cute.

A foretaste of an Obama presidency?

[frogcycle]

77. you don't understand

the Obama machine does not have to convince anyone of anything. It just steamrolls them and calls them stupid and old if they don't get in line.

[JI7]

5. the line itself has no substance

they usually ignore the posts and threads which talk about his record.

[calteacherguy]

Exactly right. nt

[ClericJohnPreston]

7. Prove a negative....

cool idea.

But, ummm, I propose a more realistic barometer.

Tell me how Obama can be an agent for change, when he is the shill for insurance company lobbyist dollars?

Tell me why you would support a candidate who would leave troops to die in Iraq for Corporate benefactors, when there is no threat except our presence. Edwards would REMOVE ALL TROOPS because he isn't obligated to any corporate interests because he isn't sucking on the corporate influence dollars.

Is that enough REALITY for you, OP?

[calteacherguy]

9. Obama wants all troops out in 16 months....next question, please.nt

[aquart]

13. Great! How?

[calteacherguy]

16. By moving them from Iraq to the U.S.A....next question. nt

[laureloak]

40. Good thing you're not running. You'd better resign as his

spokesperson.

[aquart]

60. LOL!

Oh wait. You were serious.

[emilyg]

71. And his plan for doing that is????

[frogcycle]

79. how do you do that

how many per month? what regions do you abandon first? What if the shit hits the fan in 15 months?

sounds like he HOPES they will come home in 16 months

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. It makes more sense to ask the question, "What proof is there

that Obama has any substance?"

What proof is there, based on past history that his "bipartisan" approach has any merit?

[calteacherguy]

11. What proof is there that your candidate has any "substance"

whatever "substance" means?

[laureloak]

36. We demand substance from the front runner - Obama

Game over. Time for Obama to show his hand.

Does he have anything or is he just bluffing?

[calteacherguy]

39. More mindless BS from you.

You want substance...go to his website and read.

End of discussion. Goodbye!

[laureloak]

42. I demand that the Dem nominee have a stance and a backbone.

That's not too much to ask. Hell, Hillary and Edwards have both.

[BeyondGeography]

This thread has officially turned into substance abuse

I give you points for trying, though.

[laureloak]

50. Still not meat! I won't support the flim flam man.

[BeyondGeography]

69. Get help

[frogcycle]

80. off topic

the OP was about Obama, something about proving a negative

or was it improving a negative?

[Politicub]

17. Uhm... isn't that like asking to prove a negative?

:eyes:
:shrug:

[laureloak]

18. How will Obama bring about unity? How???????

[calteacherguy]

37. He'll do it by being who he is and turning every state in the nation blue

that's how. And in the end it will be all of us who do it.

If you don't get, I guess you'll have to watch the revolution from the sidelines.

[laureloak]

43. The revolution? We're having a revolution? Oh, Lord!

Idealize much?

[frogcycle]

83. there you have it!

I KNEW they were revolting!

:rofl:

[waiting for hope]

62. Better tell that to the Southern States -

Sorry to tell ya - here in NC, all I hear about is his middle name and sadly, his color. And flame away on that, I really don't care, I have defended Obama on those points but it's almost ingrained in the circuitry on how the "reds" think.

[frogcycle]

82. click his heels together three times n/t

[msongs]

20. don't talk bad about the new messiah, the true believers are gonna get angry nt

[parasim]

31. They don't want to listen.

Actually, they refuse to.

[Bluebear]

41. Yes, we have not opened our senses to the Oracle. We are so blind, show us! Show us, O leader!

:eyes:

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laureloak]

57. HAHAHA!!!!!!

[parasim]

58. There's no reason to be an asshole about it...

Just listen to what he said. And if you disagree, then lay out your case. It's actually quite easy.

[Bluebear]

89. I listen, don't worry. Saying we don't "want to listen" is weirdly wrong.

[CoffeeCat]

48. Obviously--all of the candidates have "substance"...

Each candidate has a plan, an agenda and an amazing array of ideas.

It's bizarre that someone would say that Obama lacks substance. They've
all got substance and that is evident if you spend 10 minutes on their
Web sites, reading about their policies, opinions and plans.

We may disagree which candidate has the best policies, opinions and plans--but
they've all got them.

With that said, I believe that it's very easy to accuse Obama of "lacking substance"
because he really is a revolutionary speaker and his rock-star-like popularity
tends to tower over him. His personality and his speeches fill the room. If
people want to attack Obama, his campaigning skills are an easy target because
he appears larger than life when he speaks.

I support Obama because of his stances:
---Opposed the Iraq war from the onset. He had the courage to say, "This will not work" when
Bush practically accused any hint of anti-war sentiment as catering to the terrorists.
---Middle-class tax cuts
---He was a constitutional scholar. Ten years teaching Con Law at U of Chicago. He's disgusted by Bush's
Unitary Executive playground and he will end signing statements, restore Habeas, stop illegal wiretapping
and restore the privacy that Bush has stripped from us.

However, I also appreciate that Obama is a persuasive, articulate leader who inspires people. After seven
years of listening to George Bush shame us on the world's stage, I'm starving for intelligent discourse
from the Oval Office. Obama reminds me of a young Kennedy.

I think it's refreshing.

[calteacherguy]

51. An excellent and substantive post!

:applause:

[ClericJohnPreston]

56. Pathetic.....

cheering on your own blinders to reality. Almost as pathetic as your "revolutionary" speechifying.

[CoffeeCat]

68. You know what..

...I am really getting sick of the vitriolic back biting that goes
on when people simply support one another.

God, this place is becoming an online toilet.

[BenDavid]

54. Does it bother you that the mainstream press and the GOP are

heaping praise on Obama? Actually, it was kinda funny how the reporting went, mostly on CNN.When She was a solid third, they were squawking about how lame a candidate would have to be to come in third, but then Hillary started catching up so the CNN whores had to change their tune and talk about how "noble" it was to be in third place in case Edwards showed up there.

Also on CNN, some guy (who we can't trust) said if you take away all the caucasing and just count the votes, Obama beat Hillary 32% to 31%, but when the press hates you, they find a way to turn that one percent victory into a "landslide" for the guy they like.

I guess I'm the only one to notice how happy Republicans are today? They are giddy at the thought of running against Obama.

To answer your question. Same old ad hominem crap this guy has been serving up since he began. Change, Change, Change. TO WHAT, TO WHAT, TO WHAT?? This guy has no experience, no ideas, no plans, no direction, only 'change?, whipping up the emotion of anti-establishment without a plan. He will have to change a lot before I would feel comfortable with him making decisions and quite possibly the Taliban with their finger on the nuclear button. This situation in Pakistan really brought things into focus. Who would you trust with your life? That IS what it comes down to? I want experience, strength, ability, direction and wisdom. Sorry, none present with Obama.

Ben David

[laureloak]

55. Good post.

[calteacherguy]

59. Your post is factually wrong.

Also on CNN, some guy (who we can't trust) said if you take away all the caucasing and just count the votes, Obama beat Hillary 32% to 31%, but when the press hates you, they find a way to turn that one percent victory into a "landslide" for the guy they like.

I know where the 32/31 figure comes from. It's the percentage of Democrats. Obama's lead was substantially more because of independents and Republicans crossing over to vote Democratic. This is exactly what will lead us to a mandate for change in November, Obama's ability to bring in more independents and even some Republicans into the Democratic fold.

Next time, get your facts straight before you post. It would seem the guy on CNN isn't the only one we can't trust.

[frogcycle]

87. the republicans who crossed over

to vote for Obama widened his lead, and you are glad about that? Ever ask yourself WHY they did that? Think they got Obamareligion and want him as their leader? Hell, they just want someone Huck can beat.

[emilyg]

74. Thank you.

[frogcycle]

84. excellent post

unfortunately what you want dropped out last night

[jlake]

65. Why can't you just tell us about all of the substantive

ideas for chance that Obama has? I cannot prove a negative. Obama is fulf of empty soaring rhetoric....
he is trying to BS his way into the Whire House.

[maddiejoan]

66. wouldn't it be up to you to show he has substance?

How do you prove a negative?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. Obama is ok. I just don't think he has the strength to lead.

Just my opinion. I don't have anything bad against him. Maybe I'm misinterpreting him?

[Beausoir]

76. This is an easy one. Two words.

Donnie McClurkin

Obama hired a gay-basher in order to pander some votes.''

[Skip Intro]

78. Obama's message has no basis in reality. Define Hope. Deinfe change.

What hope does he offer?

What change will he bring?

Your answers will ultimately answer your post.

[cali]

90. MLK/s speeches had no basis in reality.

or JFKs or RFK or Mandela's.

[McCamy Taylor]

85. Actually, YOU are the one who needs to show US his great plans.

Not the buzzwords like "hope" and "change" and "unity". Those make us feel good, but they do not decrease wealth disparity or give people health insurance or return jobs to America.

When Obama supporters can lay out specific policies, plans, deadlines the way that Edwards has, then I will begin to think that Obama is more than Jimmy Carter II---all promise and no delivery. Carter talked a good talk, too, all change and accountability and returning honesty to DC and look how he turned out.

[magatte]

91. We can start showing the "plans" with the following:

www.barackobama.com/issues/


I am sure all the other candidates have similar detailed expositions of their policies and plans, and I encourage you to compare them to help you guide your vote.

[paulk]

88. Obama is a smart guy

he fully understands that in our consumer culture

packaging trumps product.

----------------


I don't live in a reality where a guy who gives a good speech deserves to be President. The newest, brightest, shiniest thing on the shelf just doesn't appeal to me that much.

That's what Obama is - a guy with a great marketing plan. Short on substance, but big on sizzle.

Two years in the Senate doesn't cut it for me. No foreign policy experience at a time when the nation is involved in not one, but two wars? Sorry, I'm not buying.


---------------------------

ps - most of the "negative bullshit" on this board is coming from Obama people.

[alteredstate]

92. here ya go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3957420&mesg_id=3957420

[Perry Logan]

93. Check out that link, DUers. It's the first positive post an Obama supporter has EVER POSTED HERE!