The Real Record of John Kerry

[AmericanErrorist]

Which candidates can Americans choose in the 2004 presidential election? Which policies will Americans endorse?

Here’s one record: Strangle, starve, then bomb Iraq. Send troops to combat in far-off countries. Increase military spending. Slash social spending. Tilt taxes to favor the wealthy. Put 30 million of the poor to work in dead-end jobs that will always leave them poor. Send living-wage jobs abroad.

Let companies, not workers, choose between union wages in the U.S. or sweatshop wages overseas. Deny health care to 44 million.

Place token minorities on the cabinet; preside over the re-segregation of public schools and the roll-back of affirmative action.

Aren’t these all good reasons to vote against Republican President George Bush? No, not at all. These policies are, as many will recognize, the legacy of Democratic President Bill Clinton. This year’s elections are shaping up to offer more of the same.

Americans can vote for a candidate who was the son of privilege, a Yale graduate, a Skull and Crossbones member, who chose an easy and comfortable career in government. This, of course, is Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush.

Or, Americans can vote for a candidate who was the son of privilege, a Yale graduate, a Skull and Crossbones member, who chose an easy and comfortable career in government. That is Democratic frontrunner John Forbes Kerry. Between this and that, there is not much difference and not much choice at all.

http://www.geocities.com/mnsocialist/kerry.html

[JHBowden]

1. I didn't know Bush was pro-choice.

I didn't know that Bush supported higher CAFE standards, wants to allow Rx drugs from Canada, opposes the death penalty, and is for gun control, among other things.

Can you explain this to me? I thought Bush was a conservative!

[MsDemeander]

17. Does Kerry really support more gun control?

Can you explain this to me? I thought gun control was off the table this time around.

[JHBowden]

20. Explain to me how Bush is a liberal.

I'm dying to know.

[JohnnyFianna1]

2. The link gives it all away, btw this isn't socialist underground

[AntiCoup2K4]

14. It isn't PNAC Underground either

But the "worship Kerry or die" mentality would lead one to think so.

[Nicholas_J]

41. Yah

Having been a socialist at one time, they always state that anyone who has anything to do with any party that isnt socialist is a fascist murderer who eats workers on their corm flakes in the morning.

[jpgray]

3. Biased examination of an 18 year record will yield these false takes

This article ignores his leadership on low-emission vehicles and Kyoto, his attempts to cut down on defense spending, and more importantly his vote against DOMA. These three very basic and important positions (and in the case of DOMA and defense spending, quite courageous) show another side of the Kerry record. It isn't as simple as the article purports it to be.

[saltpoint]

4. You have a constitutional right to vote for whom --

-- you please.

Many of us will be supporting the Democratic candidate over Bush, Nader, etc.

Your argument is a repeat of some others' arguments on DU, an argument that has been vigorously challenged.

Go vote for the candidate of your choice and give it a rest.

[mobuto]

8. You do not have a Constitutional right to vote for anybody

Read the Constitution - that's one of its deficiencies.

[saltpoint]

16. I believe one may show up at a polling place and --

-- cast a vote. If you have a specific exception that would refute my endorsement of CocaCola's right to vote for a candidate of choice, please state it, because I honestly haven't heard of it.

CocaCola's premise is that Bush and Kerry are the same. I don't agree. My response suggested that CocaCola may vote one way and I may vote another.

[mobuto]

29. My specific exception

is that no place in the Constitution does it give you the right to do so. Please show me otherwise.

There is no specific guarantee of a right to vote in the Constitution. Amendments prohibit discrimination when voting, but that assumes that voting is already taking place. The fact that there is no right to vote means that there is no right to vote for whomever you choose. It may seem like a small point, but it was of real concern during the 2000 arguments before the Supreme Court.

CocaCola's premise is that Bush and Kerry are the same. I don't agree.

Neither do I.

[saltpoint]

36. OK, got it. You're right --

-- I see where you are.

But then you brought up Florida -- and now I'm depressed. Katherine Harris haunts me.
____

Thanks for the help on the voting question & good wishes.

[union_maid]

5. Kerry didn't choose nearly as easy a path as shrub.

First he served in Vietnam, getting himself three purple hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star and only then did he plunge himself in the dangerous and chaotic political waters involved in opposing the war by his leadership in Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which was one of the most important and credible anti-war organization. He started his political career by putting himself on the hotseat. Then he went to law school and then started his political career in government. His life could have been very easy. He just didn't want to settle for that.

[salin]

6. not much difference

now that is a bit hyperbolic.

There are many reasons to be concerned about the moderating moves of the democratic party - especially when the middle has moved distinctively to the right - so that former centrists are now considered firmly to the left. But to take on that battle - of moving the party (and public convesations) back will take a great deal of work in the short and long-term.

That said, do I believe that John Kerry would have fell for the neocons lies and worked (directed) to have trumped up intelligence to take the country (and world) to war? No. I don't agree with his vote - but I do view it within the context of which it happened - and do not believe that he (or Edwards for that matter) would have presided over the events that allowed for that scenario to escalate.

I do not believe that the outright gutting of environmental protection would happen under John Kerry ("Clear Skies initiative... oh please.)

There are no grounds upon which to believe that John Kerry would have escalated the moves to privatize just about every asset and program in sight, nor that he would have worked like a dog to prevent any corporate accounting reforms after the enron/worldcom implosions - and then later work in every piece of legislation possible to add tax cuts to give more and more of the store away to those very companies.

The extreme hyperbole, that does not stand up to logic, sadly discounts the entire piece - and makes the first discussion - which, imo is a legitimate one - pretty unlikely due to the piece discrediting itself.

[mobuto]

7. Not much difference between Bush and the Democrats?

I can understand why people were saying that three and a half years ago - I disagreed with it, but I understood it. But after these three and a half years, it makes no sense whatsoever. Has the writer been awake? Has s/he seen what this Administration has done to the economy, to workers, to the environment, to schools, to libraries? Even ignoring the Iraq debacle, Bush has been the worst President in American history. To say that there's no difference between Kerry and Bush, just because they both come from privileged backgrounds is in an exercise in the most profound stupidity.

[AntiCoup2K4]

19. Kerry voted for the profound stupidity

And he's fully on board with the plans of PNAC'er Will Marshall.

[mobuto]

22. No, Kerry voted for Al Gore

Unless I'm seriously mistaken.

Next?

[funky_bug]

9. Skull and Bones...zzzzzzzzzz

Don't you get tired of digging through yesterday's trash?

[Wonk]

13. Don't you get tired of pretending it's completely insignificant?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html

[mobuto]

18. Fascinating!

Here are a few for you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

[funky_bug]

23. Nice job!

You said it better than I did. I just yawned and grabbed a beer. Good job!

[Wonk]

28. More like a whif, imho. I'll let interested folks read the links and make

up their own minds, though. The only one of those close to relevant to my point was the appeal to fear, except I only made one claim (X) not two (X is presented intended to produce fear, therefore Y is true).

Kerry is Bones, as is Bush. That's not in dispute. If that's what you want for a candidate, bully for you. I don't.

http://www.counterpunch.org/donnelly02092004.html

[mobuto]

34. Nope - you missed a few

Kerry is Bones, as is Bush. That's not in dispute. If that's what you want for a candidate, bully for you. I don't.

That would be Guilt by Association. Bush and Kerry are also white men from New England states.

But you could just as well make the case that you're arguing Questionable Cause. That because Skull and Bones has "produced" two bad Presidents, that therefore any President who was a member of Skull and Bones is therefore bad - that Skull and Bones is the cause.

That's really a variant of another fallacy you fall into, Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc because you irrationally tie Kerry's policy positions into his prior membership with Skull and Bones. You might as well tie them into his playing bass with a garage band in high school.

I could go on, but I'm tired and you still haven't produced any substantive criticism of the Senator.

[Wonk]

37. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. I'm not going

to vote for Bush, and I'm not going to vote for Kerry. I'm looking forward to Super Tuesday, after which you may not see me around here much. I bet you're looking forward to that.

The qualities that get a man into power are not those that lead him, once established, to use power wisely.  ~Lyman Bryson

[mobuto]

38. I really don't care

You can vote for whomever you wish in the primaries, but if you don't vote in the General or if you vote for third party, well, you'll just be helping Bush back into office. I seriously doubt you want that, and I feel you're making a hasty and ultimately unwise decision.

[funky_bug]

21. Just tired of repeatedly slapping down the same tired meme

I know the research, I know the arguments, and I know the rebuttals. Get something new, and maybe I'll perk up and join in a real debate about real issues.

You'd think it was Skull and Boners, the way people get worked up over it.

[George_Bonanza]

10. Not much choice if one just skims the surface

I mean, two rich guys who went to Yale and who both work in politics must be the same right?

[union_maid]

12. Substitute Harvard and you've got JFK 1.0

And FDR, too.

[Wonk]

11. Will Skull and Bones Change CEO's? That's the question.

http://www.counterpunch.org/donnelly02092004.html

The hardest thing about any political campaign is how to win without proving that you are unworthy of winning. - Adlai E. Stevenson

[mobuto]

15. Snore

Both Kerry and Bush are innies. Will the innies please stop oppressing the outies with their nefarious intrigues?

[MurikanDemocrat]

24. Kerry and Skull & Bones will conquer the world!! Bwaahahahhaha!!!!

[JHBowden]

26. LOL!

:toast:

[bigtree]

25. Socialism feeds off of the weak and promises independence

from the establishment, but can't effect any of its ideals because its philosophy eschews any position of actual responsibility save the preservation its own self-promoted leadership and because of its need for constant agitation to fuel its discontented following. It feeds on ignorance and in return produces endless platitudes of cynicism to keep a hold of its hapless minority of supporters, never actually producing anything of value.

[AmericanErrorist]

27. This article does not represent my editorial views...

Those are the views of the author. but I bring them too you because the are worth reading. I don't think that highly of the "groudswell" of Kerry "support", but I think that they are different, but they could be moreso.

[saltpoint]

30. CocaCola, you might want to give us a heads-up --

-- next time. This Kerry-is-the-same-as-Bush deal has been hawked hard for a while on DU and it just isn't taking. Just tell us up front that you are offering up a quote and give us a little intro on where you'd like the discussion to go from there.

Just a suggestion.

[AmericanErrorist]

32. I'll try better

But I do try right now. Quotes In Italics, "Article" icon. All right. I'll post the name of the journal or something that indicates an article in the thread title except at Editorals and Other Articles.

[bigtree]

33. An artless platitude

is really more atificial than a clever paradox.

W.C. Brownell

[AmericanErrorist]

35. I can't force where I want a discussion to go.

People are responding to whatever they want to talk about. I try sometimes, but it's hopeless.

[Doomsayer13]

31. Way to Simplify

There's no difference, eh? So, John Kerry voting with the Public Citizen, Ralph Nader's own interest group, 27 of 29 times in the past 3 years is "no difference". That's BS. The fact that the first word you see when you hit that link is "socialist" should already be a red flag.

[Old and In the Way]

39. No Sale.

Thanks for playing, though.

[DrFunkenstein]

40. As Dumb Arguments Go, This One Is Stupid

First of all, easy and comfortable career in government? The guy who volunteered twice for combat, then went through law school, became a top prosecutor who took down mafia bosses and cleaned up 11,000 backlogged cases, then went to the Senate and led some of the most intensive investigations - Iran-Contra, CIA-Drugs, BCCI, Noriega, POW-MIA - and has attended EVERY major environmental conference since they started in Rio...this is the easy life?

Not to mention that pushed to end Iraq sanctions, repeatedly led the effort to slash military spending in favor of social efforts, keeps the middle class tax cut, and is pushing for living wages.

Top notch research you got going there! Very instructive use of Clinton's record to somehow indicate that Kerry is no different than Bush(?).

So glad you gave us the opportunity to show how many knuckleheads there are out there.