With Dean out, the anti-*bush failures have been lost.

[liberalnurse]

It looks like *bush and company are making lightening progress with defining the 2004 Election. Where is the fight to bring home our troops, attacking *bush's failures, the deficit, heath care and so on?

Now the chatter is hot for gay marriages.....Thats a distraction. It's about sex in the eyes of republicans and they know how to sell it. This issue is justified and known as a liberal platform....Its a trigger for voters to think of dirty sex when they think democrats/liberals. Kerry and Edwards need to slow this down because *bush will not be held accountable if we don't. Lets wait for 8 months and resume our civil liberties battle.

Dean at least kept *bush's failures a common household discussion topic.

[janx]

1. Yep. Things are reverting pretty quickly to they way

they were before Dean made his presence in the race.

[sangh0]

4. Yes, back to talk of AWOL

Iraq casualties, intelligence failures, etc...Just like it was before Dean

Yeh, right

[liberalnurse]

7. This should be the litumus

test for seeing who really was the leader all along. If kerry and Edwards don't slow the gay marrage issue this week, we will know how weak they really are.

[janx]

10. Dean would have pounced on this. n/t

[patricia92243]

11. Yes they are - one person cannot instill a "spine" into the Dem Party

[janx]

13. True. All we can do is make sure that those Dems without

spines are without jobs in a couple of years.

[w4rma]

2. Yup. As I expected. The topics are moving to GOP distractions. (n/t)

[DenverDem]

3. Civil rights is another bushler failure.

It's all about framing the issue as a civil rights issue. This can be turned around on the bushlers and used against them. Running from the issue will only allow the cons to seize the territory. bushler must be fought on all fronts without retreat on any. The only way to "electability" is forward and progressive.

[Deansspecialinterest]

20. I agree

Why hide from issues when we're RIGHT? I think that there are a lot of people who feel strongly about this, but I don't believe that it would cause swing voters to swing. It might, however, attract the interest of the much-reviled liberal wing of our party, and bring in some potential dissenters/3rd partiers.

[wuushew]

5. Bush's failures predate Dean

and have been self evident since on or before January 20th 2001.

[liberalnurse]

14. But look, we are not talking about *bush's failures....

we are not exposing his failure 24/7, not fighting for what we have lost....Lets not forget the overtime issue too, vote is probably this week...but we don't hear that.....and so much more has been abandoned....mstly by kerry because he is now on the defense.

[eileen_d]

6. LOL... enjoy your negative circle-jerk

As if Dean was the only Democrat out there criticizing Bush. As if the GOP wouldn't attempt (and succeed) to dominate the discussion with Dean as the nominee. :eyes:

[meegbear]

LOL ...

ain't it the truth.

[liberalnurse]

17. I can't hear kerry doing anything

more than luke warm dishwater rhetoric..... "Oh, my Viet Nam metals are so shinny"......So what!

[Sideways]

36. But Lucy Is Wailing....Oh Wait She Was Full Of Shit Too

Anyone who fucking thwarted Charlie Brown is an asshole in my book. Big mouth no substance.

[Guaranteed]

44. Your circle jerk is just bigger.

And less justified.

[JVS]

8. What else would you expect?

[revcarol]

9. You seem to have followed the media

in their rush to ignore KUCINICH.

People who still want to have an impact and keep those issues out there can contribute $$ at www.kucinich.us

Damn it bugs me that no one "HEARS" Kucinich.The first candidate to say (about Iraq and WMD's) "THE PRESIDENT LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!"

Do you hear that, America?

[MuseRider]

18. Yes

and he also brought up Diebold and PNAC. I do not get it. Sharpton has also been very hard on Bush*.

[angryinoville]

42. How come nobody...

ever talks about PNAC? EVER! This is one of the most frightening institutions I've ever heard of and it never gets touched! BTW, GO DENNIS KUCINICH!!

[seaglass]

26. No one is "hearing" anyone except their own candidate.

That's why we get threads like these.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. Exhibit A:

[AP]

12. I feel two ways about this:

1) It's important that the canidates tell you what they're for rather than what they're against. If the other candidates where using their time to establish their personas rather than define themselves according to what Bush was, it's probably a good thing.

2) Dean was attacking Bush in an environment in which Bush was inviting it. For reasons to which I've alluded above, Bush was probably asking the media to criticize him. He was baiting the democrats into defining themselves according to him -- ie, running only as being Bush critics. Bush was/is always going to turn this around (with a big assist from the media). It's not clear that Dean's anti-Bush strategy would have worked any better than anything else, once Bush turned the tables.

If you recall, Bush in 2000 had a reall skil of being able to make people attacking him into condemnations of the attacker rather than of Bush.

The way to beat Bush is not so much to attack him, but to put something next to him which is way better, something which contrasts so obviously that the mere act of putting it next to Bush is an explicit criticism of Bush.

[liberalnurse]

19. Edwards can do this best.

Bringing out what one can do, will do sincerely is a positive characteristic of Edwards....He often piggy-backs his intentions with a visual of *bush's failures....

I firmly believe we must keep the pressure on *bush.....as the gay marriage issue is a *bush fight ...an anti-fight but a new, unaccountable issue which is a distraction.

[AP]

24. Gay marriage is a values issue for Bush, so he doesn't have to talk about

the economy.

Edwards can coutner this becuae he has combined the appearance of moderation with an argument about American being better off when the least among us is better off, adn he talks about this issue in terms of lifting up people so that we're all better -- he says let's get people all the rights and powers they need to engage in the economy in way that can't be exploited by employers and the governemtn -- he says, let's give same sex couples all the legal/material rights and benefits we give opposite sex couples? What do we lose personally if we do that? Nothing. In fact we're all better off when we're all better off.

That's how he addresses this issue, and it's a winning strategy.

[jansu]

15. We Can Fight this Battle on Many Fronts!

Show Bush and gang that we care about all Human Rights! No war, no lies, clean air and water, jobs, decent pay, gays rights, women's rights, His record on everything, including AWOL/DESERTION, Patriot Act., Judicial nominees, Supreme Court appointments, ect.

The more items we can bring to the front, the more they have to answer for. All of these will put them constantly on the defensive and they will look bad to the liberal,the middle of the roads and a few Conservatives!

PUT THEM ON THE DEFENSE FOR ALL THEIR POSITIONS! THE MORE THE BETTER!

[rhite5]

40. Only one thing wrong with this approach, and it's BIG.

The American public is only capable of focusing on maybe 3 issues at a time. A long litany makes us feel good, but the people tune out. We must pick our Bush failure issues and hammer them hard. Then move on to another few Bush Failure issues and hammer them hard and so on.

btw:
- LYING to the American people should be regularly on the active list. It applies everywhere.

- CORPORATE POWER RUN AMOK permeates all the issues too, and should be slipped in every time.

Believe it or not, I think AWOL is a wedge issue and so is Gay Marriage. Of course they are very important, but they are not THE message.

Reminders that people are still dying in Iraq is important. BIG LIES and INCOMPETENCY and CORPORATE SWEETHEART DEALS go with this one. (and Bush has yet to attend a funeral).

Jobs, jobs, jobs -- plant closures -- outsourcing white collar labor -- is important. Lies go with this one, along with Corp. Power.

The Deficit and the very shaky state of affairs with Social Security is very important. Lies and Wall Street Corp. Power go with this one.

[AngryYoungMan]

16. Kerry has been attacking Bush fairly consistently and ferociously.

And, he's not taking the "gay marriage" bait.

[WitchWay]

29. think again

The real "gay marriage" bait is for everyone to think it is bait, that it is insignificant, to make everyone feel its' okay to marginalize and deny rights to GLBT folks, and for Kerry or any other candidate to be WEAK on the issue.

I hope that the dem candidate fully supports equal rights for gays when it comes to marriage. It is about civil rights, equal rights - pure and simple.

Also, if you think that this issue doesn't concern you or your life, think again.

If the government is sucessful in creating different rights based on ones gender (and let's not fool ourselves here, because this is what this will inevitably come down to)...then they have precedent to discriminate in all sorts of way based on gender. They will have precedent to force anyone into rolls based on their gender. This means women's rights, too.

You know, GLBT pay their taxes, go to work, care for their children, love eachother...just like any hetero couple. It is brutally unfair that they are denied equal rights under the law. Look, the government has no business enforcing religion. Requiring marriage based on sex stereotypes IS enforcing religion.

Kerry needs to come out for Gay Marriage strongly, and not be so weak. Please encourage him and any other candidate who hasn't done so to do so.

I fully support GLBT marriage. Even if you don't agree with it in your religion, please think about it in terms of fairness, gender and seperation of church and state.

[WitchWay]

30. another thing...

also, if this issue concerns you (as it should) - you may want to start working really hard to get a candidate who DOES supports GLBT marriage a bunch of delegates for the primary.

Remember, when republicans smell Democratic hypocrisy, they smell blood. Don't be hypocritical on this issue.

[liberalnurse]

33. Can't we address this after the 2004 Election?

It give *bush a clean slate to bounce off of....ultimately getting away clean on his deceptions and failures.

[WitchWay]

34. no.

I would rather candidates say exactly how the stood on issues and let the electorate decide who to choose.

I don't believe in paternalistic government who distrusts the public.

If a candidate has an issue, he should say it and defend it. It's that simple.

Anyone has the right to know where the candidate stands.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Eventually, you'll

get over the way you've conditioned yourselves to believe that only Dean can speak truth.

When you reach that point, you'll be able to hear that others are, and have been, speaking truth as well.

[lovedems]

27. I agree with you.

I think Kerry has done a fine job putting the chimp on the defensive. Kerry doesn't need to "bash" he needs ask questions. He needs to put the chimp in the position of answering questions and defending his policies. He has been quick to respond to negative comments and has called out the mouthpieces for the republican party.
Bu$h has given the dems alot of ammunition and there isn't a doubt in my mind that they will pass on it.

Edit: I thought it was a brilliant move to place the vile commentary written by Ann Coulter on Bu$h's lap.

[mitchum]

37. DemBones, there are reasons why I think of you as one of the most

sensible posters here. Thank you for confirming them.

[blm]

41. and one of the bravest.

.

[Nashyra]

22. The Repukes have had to turn to pandering to their base

this is a good thing and means they are going off track and about running the * as a war president, that is not to say that using this issue as a wedge against American voters is a good thing, far from it, it is typical of the GOP of the GOP to inflame their base about the private lives of other people. Also as unimportant as polls are, where most people are "against gay marriage" and for "civil unions" an overwhelming majority do not support a constutional amendment that discriminates against anyone. Most people would prefer to keep this a state issue. For the record because it it is not a personal factor for me but for a member of my family and they are who I asked for an opinion and their preference is for the equality of a civil union that is equal to all rights state and federal that apply to marriage, they say they would prefer to go in and get a certificate that says marriage or civil union check a box and it is recorded with the registrar of the county and is as legal as any marriage license. They say the problem is not the word marriage as much as it is non recognition of federal and state benefits, they want to be considered same sex spouses, not man and wife. They have lived together for over 10 years and my siblings "spouse" is considered just as much of our family as any of the other husbands or wives. They live in KY and were overjoyed with Chandlers win.

[BeyondGeography]

23. Kerry thrashed Dean, get over it

He thrashed Bill Weld, too. Granted, he was playing to a more enlightened audience in Mass. than will be the case in the GE, but underestimate Kerry at your peril.

As an apparent Dean supporter, I'm sure you've already done that. Not that you've learned from the experience.

[CWebster]

25. Just like Bush thrashed Gore

get over it...

[BeyondGeography]

28. And stop crying in your tea-cup

while you're at it.

Methinks the Kerry/Dean result was a tad more conclusive.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

32. Obviously you didn't

Sound like kerry rhetoric to me. It has no power.

[RetroLounge]

35. How exciting! Not

[janx]

38. Speaking about not exciting, I caught a glimpse of the latest

debate.

My GOD was that boring! I could not believe it!

[angryinoville]

43. How did a repub get on this board?

[Malva Zebrina]

45. I have to agree

the momentum seems to have dwindled.

[slinkerwink]

48. yeah, there isn't that same energy I used to feel in this primary....

for me, it's gotten boring without Dean.

[John_H]

46. I started worrying about this when I saw Gore's @K staff working for Kerry

[Zomby Woof]

47. bullshit

The economy continues its slide, and people notice when their wallets are lean. Bush's numbers continue to drop, and the gay marriage issue will run its course soon enough. 8 fucking months until the election, which should wash that icky grape flavor away.