A Dean vote now means NO progressive voice until the Convention

[dpbrown]

Dean's not running for President. He can no longer keep the issues he was championing at the forefront of debate from now until the Convention, and even then may not wield as much influence as he and his supporters hope. Voting for someone other than the progressive remaining in the race smothers the chance that progressive issues will be talked about from now until the Convention. A "statement vote" for Dean doesn't mean as much as a vote for a candidate who is still in the race.

The best that can be hoped for from continued support of Dean is that the Convention will be forced to build a coalition with his delegates in order to get a majority - same as with Dennis, but Dennis is still in the race. The difference is that by choosing Dean in the primary, you're now choosing no one to represent your views from now until the Convention.

I don't think really committed Dean supporters may switch, but in my opinion, switching to a candidate that is still in the race will have more of an effect on the Party through:

1. Enhanced media coverage of the progressive that's actually still running for the nomination,

and

2. Forcing the progressive issues that are still important to be discussed at debates.

By dropping out, Dean took himself off the table of being able to push forward his agenda. Kucinich is still pushing forward a progressive agenda. No progressive who began with Dean, and who is satisfied to have his or her voice silenced until the Convention, ought to remain steadfast and cast his or her primary vote for Dean.

Only Kucinich remains to keep progressive issues on the front burner throughout the rest of the nomination season.

Only Kucinich can give voice to the concerns of former Dean supporters worried about the direction the Party is taking.

Only Kucinich is still in the race.

In my opinion, Dean supporters ought to, while gritting their teeth if they have to, vote for Kucinich in order to keep both a) the fight for the soul of the Party, and b) the anti-war message on the FRONT burner from now until the Convention.

To continue to support Dean, even though he's not running, is to choose to silence the voice of the remaining progressive in the race.

Obviously I don't know what's going on in the heads of all Dean supporters, but I wouldn't want to sit on my hands and watch my issues wither from now until the Convention on the hope that by NOT running, Dean will wield enough clout at the Convention to once again bring those issues to life, and I wouldn't want to cast a Democratic protest vote in the primary, knowing that my candidate wasn't even trying to win anymore and that the platform was going to be written by the winning candidate regardless.

I think Dean supporters do the best thing they can do for both progressive values and for keeping alive the hope of retaking our Party from "insiders" by switching to Kucinich now.

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[slinkerwink]

1. um, no thanks

[dpbrown]

6. Kingmaking won't do Dean any good on the platform

Just like it didn't help Gov. Brown "shape" the platform by trying to be a player at the Convention.

Choosing someone who's not running for President is choosing silence. I don't think that was what Dean's candidacy was supposed to be all about.

Your call, of course.

DPB

[aquart]

2. Does it take 15% of the vote to win some delegate distribution in NY?

Correct my numbers? I'm uneducated and unclear on this issue.

Has Kucinich ever won 15% (or the correct NY number) percent in any primary?

[dpbrown]

9. Statewide, he got more than 15% in Maine

He beat Edwards in both Washington, and Maine.

I don't know what the rules are in NY, but most states have some sort of percentage rule like that.

DPB

[GodHelpUsAll2]

35. It does not take 15% state wide

It's by district. You can pik up delegates by getting 15% in districts.

[Capn Sunshine]

3. Dean has NOT quit

one has to wonder why Kucinich is still running though

[buckeye1]

5. DK still has money.

Dean is flat broke.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

36. and you know this how?

[w4rma]

43. That's not my understanding. (n/t)

[Desertrose]

45. candidates finances...opensecrets.org

FWIW- not sure if this is before the bills are paid or after :shrug:


http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/index.asp?sort=C

George W. Bush (R)
   $99,106,652

Howard Dean (D)  -  (no longer running)
   $9,647,361

Dennis Kucinich (D)  - (has over $2M due him for federal matching funds)
   $2,629,441

John Kerry (D)  - (NO federal matching funds)
   $1,605,428

John Edwards (D)  
   $275,212

Lyndon H. Larouche Jr (D)
   $63,949

Al Sharpton (D)  
   $7,535

[GodHelpUsAll2]

49. ummmmmmm

I wouldn't call over 9mil flat broke.

[dpbrown]

10. Dean is not seeking the Presidency, nor the Democratic nomination

Therefore there is no one to speak for Dean's progressive issues, to the extent he fought for "taking back the Party" and against invading Iraq, with Dean out of the race.

The bare existence of Dean's name on ballots in upcoming primary elections does nothing to get progressive issues in the debates or in the news or in front of voters, and waiting to the Convention to try to play kingmaker doesn't do anyone any favors other than the frontrunners now.

Dean is out, and he won't have as big an effect at the Convention as people would like to think. Ask former Governor Brown of California what kind of effect a maverick might have on the "other" candidate's platform.

DPB

[Scott Lee]

4. The Kucinich that threw his support to pro war Edwards?

Oh yes, that principled individual. I recall now.

[dpbrown]

7. Ooooooooooooonnnnnnnneeeeeeee Nnnnnoooottttttteeee Ssssooonnggggggg

Thanks for singing it for us!

DPB

[Scott Lee]

51. Aye....if it weren't so true

Kucinich has all the moral tenacity of a numbers runner.

[youngred]

15. sour grapes still

I can't beleieve people still haven't gotten that...its almost deliberate ignorance

[bitchkitty]

26. My ass.

he threw his anti-war support behind pro-war Edwards. How can you spin that as being anything other than it was?

[diamondsoul]

31. *sigh* Same response. Maybe I should

put it into a word document and just start c&p-ing to save myself some work.

Were you as angry when Dean chose to opt out of Public Funding? No of course not, Dean supporters steadfastly ignored the hypocrisy in that decision, even encouraged him to BE a hypocrite.

It's the exact same choosing to play the system to stay in the race as Dean opting out of public funding limits.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

37. I'd like to hear

an explanation on that one. How does opting out of public funding make you a hypocrite?

[diamondsoul]

39. It doesn't, except

when, just two months prior, you claim you'll "make it an issue" if any of your fellow candidates opt out.

[bitchkitty]

60. What does refusing public funding

have to do with throwing support to a pro-war candidate? Tens of thousands of Iraqis with dead fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and children would disagree with you. But if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself that it's okay. After all, it's not your kids being ripped from limb to limb by American bombs.

[janx]

8. Sorry.

I'm still voting Dean in the caucus in our state.

[dpbrown]

11. Then you're voting for silence on all the issues Dean thought important

You're voting for placing a bet on the potential for kingmaking at the Convention, and against having an affect on the direction of the Party from now through the rest of the primary season.

By choosing someone who is not running for President, you're choosing to have none of the issues you believe in fought for in the race for the nomination.

Your choice, of course.

DPB

[janx]

30. Yep. My choice.

[shance]

12. Please open your eyes and open your mind.

I know you are worried. We all are.

The fact is, atleast from my perspective, Dean has been the true voice of balance and common sense. I'll be honest, I like DKs words, his actions continue to disappoint me. He sides with his friends from the Halls of Congress when the going gets tough and that alerts me. I dont want a fair weathered leader.

Deans authenticity and concern grow as his candidacy grew. He spoke to my heart and moreover his actions spoke to me. He listened and didnt merely speak. He suited up and showed up time and time again flying from coast to coast. He is strong and knows who he is, where others, however well-intended dont rise to the meet the mark as well. No one else has in my opinion. I wish someone else would, but actions speak louder and the words will ring hollow to me until these other candidates are put to the test.

I believe Dean is the candidate of Democrats. Will I vote for another candidate in the general - probably.

What are you talking about when you say progressive "voice"? I am learning more how cheap words are, and how valuable actions have become.

I dont fault those in D.C. I think we all would fall under the same system and conditions that Washington demands. That is why I prefer someone who has not been tainted by the seduction of D.C. and could serve there term(s) and then move on to continue influencing positive change.

He is the progressive voice, or in my opinion, he is the most authentic voice.

[dpbrown]

13. Dean can't debate, therefore he can't champion anything

That's what "voice" means.

Dean's not running for President. He's not pursuing the nomination. Voting for Dean is voting for air. Poof, nothing.

Dean thinks he can play kingmaker at the Convention, and he's willing to tell all his followers to hold off on all their expectations and sit on their hands until then.

Former Governor Brown can tell you how little power mavericks might have at the Convention. Hey, it might be different for Dean, but I doubt it.

The point is you have a chance now to put your effort toward a candidate who is still running for President and who beat Edwards twice already, in Maine and Washington. Choosing a candidate that's still in the race gives you more power.

Waiting for the Convention to hope that even while NOT running for President, Dean can play kingmaker is like buying extra lottery tickets hoping to win the Powerball. Might happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I'd bet on a candidate who is still in the race, still running, and still has plenty of money in the bank.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[EXE619K]

14. Hey Dan,

Don't you have something better to do like.....

Stand at the corner of Kellogg and Grand, waving your Kucinich sign right now?

:D

[youngred]

16. what do you mean

Dennis' actions are consistant.

surely you can't still be whining about Iowa? do we STILL have to explain that?

[REP]

17. I'd Rather Chew Off My Own Arm, But Thanks Anyway

Dennis Kucinich didn't give a flat damn about me until he decided to run for President, and I doubt he gives one now. Further, it's hard to take his candidacy seriously when he obviously doesn't take seriously himself (two dating stunts? How fucking twee).

[diamondsoul]

34. "Dennis Kucinich didn't give a flat damn about me..."

Right, he doesn't give a flat damn about anyone. That would explain why he sued George W. Bush over two different executive decisions- the IWR and the Kyotot treaty. That would be why he reconsidered his position on women's rights. That would be why he's introduced legislation after legislation calling for a myriad of protections for the people, the environment, workers rights, animal protections, etc.

Nahhh, he doesn't give a damn, and it's all his fault his bills are languishing in committee right now.:eyes:

[OhioStateProgressive]

18. people who don't vote for Kucinich don't love their country(nt)

[Cassandra]

25. You really have to stop...

reading the Rove Political Instruction Manual.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

40. Oops

Vote Dennis or he will call you unpatriotic just like Bush does. ROFLOL

[Guava Jelly]

19. Will you cant stop the kucinich steamrolller

when he takes his 2 delegates to the convention and gets the nod.
OH so many bubbles are going to be bursted .
If he cant win one stats he cant win america.
He dosent appeal to the mainstream Sorry!!
I admire your devotion to dennis But You arent going to see President Kucinich
Its just that simple
It will be either Kerry or Edwards but probably Kerry
go ahead rip me a new @$$ now

[wheresthemind]

20. I can't believe that Dean is the "principled one"

Dean used to be a card carrying member of the DLC, his opposition to the war was less then consistent, his civil unions work was sketchy, this was not the principled progressive Democrat so many made him out to be.

Dennis has had only one issue he has evolved on his whole career and that is abortion. Otherwise he has been 100% consistent in his fighting for people. This is man who risked his political career to save the tax payers of Cleveland MILLIONS.

I pick the close friend and ally of Paul Wellstone's Dennis Kucinich.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

41. Oops again

Name dropping. Now we have a combo of Bush and Kerry.

[Scott Lee]

54. Just don't turn your back to Kucinich

It might end up with several knives in it.

[quaker bill]

21. Not true at all

Nothing about getting only 2 or 3 percent of the vote will stop Kucinich from running. It hasn't so far and there is no reason to expect that it will start to slow him down now.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. Not true

How does DK still being in the race "represent" me? In fact there are several issues where he is actually quite reactionary. Since those issues are important to me, he is not liberal or progressive in my opinion. It's all dependent on what issues are important to you I guess.

A vote for Dean is a vote to possibly take some real power to the convention. Dk isn't going to amass enough delegates to do anything.

[wheresthemind]

23. what issues?

[edzontar]

24. In PA, I will cast my primary vote for Deam.

DK has not run a very focused campaign.

He allied himself with Edwards too early.

He let his press spokesman act as a part-time Kerry supporter.

He failed to make any kind of common ground with Dean when it might have helpe--who now ehy?


I like the guy, but the case has not yet been made for me to vote for him.

[bitchkitty]

27. Oh, please.

Get real and worry about your own vote. I'll support Howard and thus his agenda, thank you. I'll vote Dem in the GE, but that's as far as I go in support for any of the other Democrats, Kucinich included.

[tinanator]

28. what can you do with them?

Theyre not the sharpest knives in the drawer. They are STILL soliciting votes for a quitter! Swift operators, about as useful as a Nader vote.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

42. oops

More Kerry tactics. I'm confused, is it Kerry or Bush you are trying to emulate? I can't figure it out. Oh and by the way, Nader will more than likely draw as many votes as Dennis. So in essence that would make a vote for Dennis about as useful as a Nadar vote.

[lurk_no_more]

56. Swift operators, about as useful as a Nader vote.

Voting Nader w/out actually voting Nader, You expected anything less?

Half of dean's support comes from Green/Nader voters.



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[GodHelpUsAll2]

57. Hint

Dean will probably pick up as much if not more support not campiagining than Dennis boy will blowing and going. What was that remark about sharpest knife in the drawer? And if anyone feels the need to respond with a "No he won't" put your money where your mouth is. I'll lay money on it.

[Larkspur]

29. DK is a left wing ideologue. I'm a moderate who leans left

Dean is closer to my ideas than DK, who opposed women's reproductive rights far too long for me. I'm voting for Dean in CT's March 2 primary. It's the least I can do to screw DK, who threw his support to Edwards in Iowa.

[diamondsoul]

32. You know, Larkspur-

I was backing you right up until that last line.

And hmm, I guess Kucinich supporters who went to Edwards in Iowa were maybe trying to "screw" Dean over his Public Funding hypocrisy that you all supported.

[Larkspur]

50. Dean's campaign was public funded

and I'm one of Dean's public.

DK is as myopic as Nader. He was jealous of Dean's success, and DK didn't want to accept the fact that most people supporting Dean were moderates, like me, who opposed the Iraq War but were not pacifists and left wing ideologues.

[Scott Lee]

53. Public funding hypocrisy? Oy.

Dean changed his mind when he saw that Bush's unrestrained money thanks to opting out of the public fund system could destroy the Dems. It was a wise choice for that reason and for the fact that DEAN has the phenomenal talent of breaking fundraising records. Kerry won't be able to out do a bake sale.

Have fun, Botox. Oh, and just for the record, you aren't getting the Dean fundraising machine as a bonus for your coronation.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

55. Damn skippy

But he sure is screaming for it isn't he. Hell, they all are.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

33. Nice try

Ineffective but still, nice try. Welcome to the club of "Voting for Dean will do you no good" drop your loyalty and join us". Kinda sounds like the Kerry pitch.

[katieforeman]

38. A Kucinich vote means no Pregressive voice for at least four years

after the election.

Edwards is the most Progressive voice with a chance of beating Bush. With his two Americas speech he articulates the Progressive vision.

Besides Dennis and Edwards are friends. I doubt Dennis and Kerry are very close. I think Edwards will be much truer to the spirit of Kucinich campaign if he is elected than Kerry.

Just some food for thought.

[bread_and_roses]

44. You make a lot of sense

...in the real world. Unfortunately, I can't much see much reality in most of the posts about Dean, which I continue to read in my no doubt futile attempt to understand his campaign and supporters. I don't recognize the Dean they describe as having any basis in his history (other than speaking out against the war). I can't see any understanding that it didn't take a conspiracy to end his campaign...just the simple reality that most voters out in the world didn't quite buy him. I can't see any acknowldgement that he didn't, actually, run a very good campaign or spend his money wisely.

Right now, every vote for DK gives the eventual nominee more strength to advance real progressive causes - universal health care, labor rights, progressive taxation, etc. Neither JK nor JE is going to advance these issues if they don't think there is a solid block of voters supporting them. And not only voters but activists who can TURN OUT votes, something the Dems havn't been all that good at these last few cycles.

A vote for Dean at this point is a wasted vote.

[Desertrose]

47. A vote for Dean at this point is a wasted vote.....

and I have to agree with you Kenzee13 & Dan...

Are all these people who can't wait to give their vote to a non candidate at this point, the same people who have a FIT about anyone who votes for Nader...a third party candidate who can't effect change because he has no real VOICE beyond what the MEDIA gives him??

hmmm....and um Dean is, at this point....uh, lets see...a candidate with NO REAL VOICE.....he has no way to vote on anything- he is not currently a Governor, Senator or a Congressman, he holds no office and is not actively running for office...so WHERE is his VOICE again?? and WHY are you voting for someone who has no way of possibly changing anything until...maybe...July...or ever this race???

even the media doesn't pay a lot of attention to Howard -unless he is talking to Kerry or Edwards.

You talk about Kucinich people needing to get real...I'd say some Dean people better face the fact , sad & frustrating as it is to you all, that their candidate is no longer viable.

OK...flame me now...I have donned my flame retardant suit ....but read this before you do.

I have a grudging sort of admiration for Dean...early on his supporters totally put me off, but he has done a lot for the Dem party...now if the supporters could work WITH the one who at least agreed on the IWV...maybe by standing together....it might actually take Dean's momentum and accomplish something positive with it...like stopping Kerry or Bush or whoever you want to stop...to change some things we really really really need to change...I hope we can work together....

DR
edited to remove last sentence for nastiness that I don't mean...I really want us to try to work together to get * out!

[PVnRT]

46. Jesus H. Christ

It is absolutely amazing how you people focus more on those not in the race and those that will be irrelevent in November like Nader instead of focusing on beat Bush. Sad, really.

[redqueen]

48. Voting for Kucinich will wake up tweedle dee and tweedle dum

Voting for Dean won't do jack during the primaries.

Voting for Kucinich will hopefully cause Kerry and Edwards to re-think their 'us too just not as much' platforms.

[RetroLounge]

52. I think not

eom

[NashVegas]

58. I Think Most Dean Supporters Can Hold off Til the Convention, Thanks

Really.

It's really a question of what the person holding the delegates will use them as leverage for.

Granted first, at the rate Kerry's going, it probably won't matter much.

Put on your pragmatic hat and ask yourself, which of Dennis's big issues are likely to get a plank in this election year when overthrowing Bush is the #1 thing and selling the Dem party's soul is in the backseat?

As I see it, the best thing Dennis could do with his delegates is use them to get some choice committee placements.

What would Dean cash in his chips for? If you can answer that, or even guess at that, you'll begin to have an answer to the question of whom you should be putting up delegates for.

[zulchzulu]

59. Kerry is pretty progressive if you ask me

He's for gay rights, protecting the environment, rated high for protecting civil rights and labor, for health care reform, for women's rights...

You can drag the IWR out if you want, but Kerry was voting for the UN to do its job. The Patriot Act vote was unfortunate, but it was during the 911 paranoia and is going to sunset on 1/1/05 anyway.

From the various pro-Kucinich sites I'd seen, Dean was always considered a conservative compared to Kucinich.

We're not voting for Jesus or Mother Theresa. If you really look at Kerry's record and issues, you'd find he's not perfect but is more progressive than you might think.