Kerry And Killing Civilians In Vietnam

[DrFunkenstein]

The possibility of killing innocent civilians haunted Kerry. With many of the South Vietnamese waterways in ''free fire zones'' - meaning that the US Navy was authorized to shoot anyone who was violating a curfew - the likelihood that innocent villagers could be killed was high.

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr.

''We were fighting the free fire policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, to say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show.

But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat. Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.

The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[metisnation]

1. He WAS DOING

What he thought was right for his country. He always does what he thinks is best for you and me. Let JFK fight for you.

:dem:

[MsDemeander]

14. Exactly. He did what he thought was right

We should never question a war hero and especially one that is electable for our side.

[KFC]

2. "But, but... there is no difference between Kerry and Bush!"

"Except Kerry uses Botox."

Brilliant article. Thanks for posting it.

[Old and In the Way]

3. I can only imagine the conflicting hell our soldiers were under in Nam

To do your job vs. the dehumanizing reality of a kill or be killed environment. It is to Kerry's strength of character that he could return and heal himself by taking on the entrenched pro-war powers in Washington. Kudos to John Kerry and all the men and women who helped to stop the madness...

[DrFunkenstein]

4. You Really Get A Sense Of How Screwed The Soldiers Were

"It angered me," Kerry said. "But, look, the Viet Cong used women and children." He said there might have been a satchel containing explosives. "Who knows if they had -- under the rice -- a satchel, and if we had come along beside them they had thrown the satchel in the boat. ... So it was a terrible thing, but I've never thought we were somehow at fault or guilty. There wasn't anybody in that area that didn't know you don't move at night, that you don't go out in a sampan on the rivers, and there's a curfew."

------------

How is that not going to f- with your head?

[sangh0]

17. 75% of the officers on those swift boats died from enemy fire

according to an article in today's NY Times.

[DrFunkenstein]

18. And People Talk About Kerry Getting An Easy Ride For His 3 Wounds

They can kiss my ass. If your in the shit for that long and live to tell the tale, you have my blessing.

[sangh0]

19. Not just "in the shit for that long"

but also looking at a 3 to 1 chance of being killed in combat. How do you like them odds?

[Nicholas_J]

20. Yup

When they come back from getting their asses shot at, or having people trying to blow your transportation to pieces with you in it, then you have the right to complain about what kind of wound got you your purple hearts and what kind of behavior got you your silver star and bronze star. The commendations are far more important than the purple heart as you had to do soething extra-ordinary to get them (Kerry's commanders though he was outright nuts to do what he did to win the bronze star, everyone else opposed the actions he took).

[Maddy McCall]

8. One of the purposes of basic training is dehumanizing the enemy

I have participated in "virtual reality" rifle-training. The enemy is a faceless hostile, and your only job is to put the cross-hairs on him and pull the trigger.

It is the same basic-training process that soldiers go through. I participated at a major US training camp as I was working for my MA minor in military history.

I will tell you that feeling the adrenaline "fight or flight" reaction for several hours made me wonder how soldiers can experience the reality of it for months. It is a small wonder that so many Vietnam infantrymen returned stateside with PTSD.

And we can expect the same thing with the hundred-thousand soldiers who are soon to return stateside from Iraq...a whole new generation of walking wounded. It is so sad.

[Maddy McCall]

5. That's the bitch of guerilla warfare...

enemy combatants know that placing themselves amongst the civilian population offers them cover. Sad thing about Vietnam was that treelines along rice paddies often harbored enemy combatants as well as civilians. It was a no-win war, and anyone educated in military history will tell you that it is impossible to fight guerilla warfare without civilian casualties.

The whole war was a crock. Our soldiers did the best they could in an impossible situation. Would you rather Kerry sit on his privileged ass in Alabama, stoned and chasing skirts?

Soldiers' service in the military ought not be gauged honorable or dishonorable by the decisions command made.

I will NEVER condemn a Vietnam soldier for the war he was forced to fight. I have a Vietnam vet speak to my college history classes every semester--if you can hear the stories first hand, you are left with much more appreciation for what these soldiers went through.

[DrFunkenstein]

6. Kerry Hated The War, But Always Loved The Warriors

That's why the GOP smear campaign won't work.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Frankly, I don't know a single infantry vet who liked the war at all.

I think Bush/Rove attempts to publicize Kerry's history as a veteran protesting the Vietnam war will blow up in Bush's face.

Most the guys who were on the ground and in contact with the enemy combatants hate the war--and they have a special bond with their combat brethren that anyone who did not fight there cannot penetrate.

[Old and In the Way]

9. It's precisely the point that Republican leadership has almost no

war vetrans, that create the conditions to start new wars of folly. Perhaps if Bush, Cheney, Wolfie, Perle, et al had seen the horror up front and close when it was their time to serve, their taste for war would be different.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. The Chickenhawk List Is Long And Illustrious

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

[Maddy McCall]

12. YES, that is the site...

must add to my faves right now. THANKS! :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

11. Yes, or if their children were participants.

I visited a website recently that listed vets and chickenhawks on both sides of the aisle.

Amazing that all those talk radio pundits and Republican politicians and strategists NEVER served, and the reasons they didn't are quite comical.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Well, It Certainly Pissed Off Colin Powell

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

-Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148

And that's people who actually served in the Reserve!

[Johnyawl]

15. Was the brass trying to kill him???

Kerry and ...fellow skippers ...traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr....
it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat...this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.

It sounds to this ex-Marine that he was being punished for running his mouth.


And you're right, jchild, most everybody that sees war up close, hates it.

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Ever Hear The Song "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda"?

Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask meself the same question.

But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.