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Dick Cheney's Fondest Pipe Dream, Revisited - Hillary's support for Kyl/Lieberman

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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:19 AM
Original message
Dick Cheney's Fondest Pipe Dream, Revisited - Hillary's support for Kyl/Lieberman
Dick Cheney's Fondest Pipe Dream, Revisited
by Paul Rogat Loeb
December 26, 2007

Ever since Hillary Clinton supported the reckless Kyl-Lieberman Iran bill, her Democratic competitors have been blasting her for her stand, and rightly so. By defining Iran's Revolutionary Guards Corps, a core branch of the Iranian military, as a foreign terrorist organization, the bill put the U.S. Senate on record as vindicating the Bush-Cheney line that Iranian proxies are part of a global conspiracy, linking Al Qaeda, Iraqi insurgents, Hamas, Hezbollah, and any other enemy the administration wants to conjure up. It made a US attack on Iran just that much more possible. And Clinton's support for the bill confirmed that she has learned little from her earlier Iraq war vote.

But what none of the candidates challenging her have done, as far as I can tell, is use the most succinct and damning description of the vote's implications that's been expressed, when Senator James Webb called it "Dick Cheney's fondest pipe dream." "It could be read as tantamount to a declaration of war," Webb also concluded, and his descriptions go to the heart of the issue, with an eloquence likely to stick in the minds of the voters. But the other candidates have to publicly quote them, and so far they haven't.

Now Jim Webb's not always right, but he knows war, and has thought and written about what leads to it. He's not one to use words casually, so his judgment carries weight. When competing candidates say Hillary's made it easier for Bush and Cheney to even consider the insanity of an attack (or to encourage Israel to do so in their place), it's true and damning. But her supporters can still dismiss this as self-serving exaggeration. Quoting Webb makes her vote harder to dismiss. It goes to the key issue--that once again Hillary empowered a recklessly belligerent administration in their efforts to go to war. Now a US attack is probably less likely since the National Intelligence Estimate found that Iran had halted its nuclear weapons programs in 2003. But Clinton had no way of knowing this when she voted for Kyl-Lieberman, and Bush continues to talk confrontationally in the wake of the report. The fact that Hillary later supported a resolution saying Bush needed Congressional permission to attack is fine and good, but it only partially closes the opportunity for potential catastrophe that she'd just finished helping open.

Reports out of Clinton's campaign suggest that her support for the resolution may actually reflect less a heart-felt political judgment, than a politics of triangulation, an approach where she's driven more by policies she thinks will help her win than those necessarily the best choice for America and the world. As the New York Times reported, "Part of the reason for Mrs. Clinton's vote some of her backers say privately, is that she has already shifted from primary mode, when she needs to guard against critics from the left, to general election mode, when she must guard against critics from the right…. Mrs. Clinton is also solidifying crucial support from the pro-Israel lobby."

As Clinton's once seemingly unassailable lead seriously crumbles, her Iran vote has played a major role in the process. But those raising it as an issue have been withholding the most powerful way of telling it. They need to, in their talks, their ads, and in the arguments they ask their supporters to use. If Democrats really reflect on what it means to potentially enable "Dick Cheney's Fondest Pipe Dream," I believe they'll select a different candidate.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=90&ItemID=14590
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Obama missed that one,,,but then he wants to BOMB IRAN
not just declare the Iranian guard terrorist, which they are...damn Obama wants to go all out and bomb Iran, something none absolutely none of the other senators have ever said they wanted to do.

Wonder why the press other than the CHICAGO TRIBUNE reporter he gave the interview to, have ignored this. And remember, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE IS PRINTED IN ILLINOIS...guess there are some intelligent people left in that state anyway.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Care to address Hillary's playing a part in Cheney's "pipe dream" and her rebuke of Webb ?
You guys are so predictable. Obama is not even mentioned in the article.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The point was that--since he wants to BOMB IRAN--Obama is obviously not an alternative.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 09:37 AM by Perry Logan
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's not the point of the editorial in the OP. That's a desperate red herring-like deflection.
Do you defend her support of Kyl/Lieberman?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. It's called being out of ammo
First of all, I really like the absolute childish lies of saying Obama wants to BOMB IRAN in all caps.

Where the hell did that lie come from?

Secondly, you will not have any semblence of an intellectual conversation about what Jim Webb said about Hillary's vote FOR the Kyl/Lieberman amendment from these people.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. What nonsense are you babbling about?
Obama wants to bomb Iran? Could you point to where he said that? Oh right: you can't, because it never happened. I'm sorry that you have nothing better to promote your candidate on than lies and smears of others.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. No shit. Has she issued her "if the most important thing to any of you is who did or didn't vote"
comment on it yet like the IWR?

She already told me to vote for someone else. She thinks my priorities are fucked up.

Unlike her team that thinks they need to protect my kids from video game violence by sending them to Iraq and Iran.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. Gasoline on a fire
The last thing anyone needed was to inflame the rhetoric between Iran and the U.S. That Senator Clinton didn't understand that, or was willing to participate in the escalation was just another example of her poor judgment. Last week I watched Sen. Bayh on CNN. When asked about the NIE, the man sounded like Richard Perle. Now Bayh is being touted as a possible VP. OMG!

When Senator Clinton talks about Iran (all options are on the table), her words should give everyone chills.

The Iranian Guard are not the good guys; however, the diplomats often rise from their ranks. Eighty members of the Iranian Parliament come from the IRCG. 73% of the IRCG voted in favor of the moderates.

Now riddle me this: how in the hell do we talk to people who we've labeled terrorists? How does K-L help the situation in any positive way? Since when has Lieberman been on the side of sanity?

We want Washington to hold people accountable, but we, the activists, apparently don't want to hold people accountable.

(Note: isn't time for Team Hillary to chime in and call me a "hater"?)
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. no, you're not a "hater"
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 10:10 AM by ccpup
but are you aware of S. 970, the Senate Resolution Obama (with Hillary) co-sponsored in March -- six months before Kyle-Lieberman -- that officially lists the Iranian Revolutionary Guard "terrorists"?

Obama co-sponsored something that basically does the same thing Kyle-Lieberman the following September did ... and, after missing the vote, turns around and attempts to excoriate Hillary over it.

Same thing, different resolutions.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Not true. S. 970 and Kyl/Lieberman did not do "basically" the same thing.
The former was a reasonable attempt to deal with proliferation in Iran, hence the title "Iran Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007."

The latter linked Iran to the conflict in Iraq and may provided congressional legitimacy for US military action, hence "Dick Cheney's pipe dream."

Anyway...the differences have been outlined (ad nauseum) here and elsewhere. Either you are ignoring the reality or purposely trying to mislead.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Then why does S.970 contain this section?
(8) The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189) and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224 (66 Fed. Reg. 186; relating to blocking property and prohibiting transactions with persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support terrorism).

Please explain?
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Two bad bills
do not make a "good" one.

At no point did I defend Senator Obama's bill, and I refuse to play "look over there."

I do find Senator Clinton's defense of her vote as one for "diplomacy" as insulting to the intelligence of anyone paying attention.

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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I didn't say you defended Obama or his bill
but one is never sure if people are aware of certain facts. All I was doing was offering more information for you to either use or discard. Didn't think I'd get my head snapped off, though. Geez.
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ccpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. Dick Cheney's fondest pipe dream
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 10:09 AM by ccpup
came true on March 22nd when Obama (and Hillary) co-sponsored S. 970, the Resolution that named the Iranian Revolutionary Guards a "terrorist organization" ... a full six months before Obama missed the vote on Kyle-Lieberman, which Hillary voted for and which closely followed what had already been established by, you guessed it, S. 970.

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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Wow, no wonder Obama refused to vote NO in the Kyl-Lieberman vote
March 22nd when Obama (and Hillary) co-sponsored S. 970, the Resolution that named the Iranian Revolutionary Guards a "terrorist organization" ... a full six months before Obama missed the vote on Kyle-Lieberman, which Hillary voted for and which closely followed what had already been established by, you guessed it, S. 970.


It's so easy to see from this that the reason he wouldn't put his ass on the line in this vote was because he'd be hypocritical either way he voted! Obama just wants it both ways, and he figured that he could avoid scrutiny by not voting. Little does he know....
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Dodd also co-sponsored the original legislation
and he also voted no on Kyl-Leiberman. Dodd said they weren't the same and the that the latter bill had diplomacy stripped out of it.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. That quote would have more credibility if they got their basic facts right.
Such as spelling Kyl's name correctly. Also, you seem to miss the fact that beyond designating the IRG as a terrorist group, the Kyl-Lieberman bill basically calls for an option of military response.

Now, I think people here are pretty heavily exaggerating when they act like Kyl-Lieberman is a declaration of war, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the content of the bill, or the unwise actions of the people who voted for it.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Bullshit.
Obama has never criticized the designation of the IRG. If you think S. 970 is identical to Kyl-Lieberman, you need to do some research. All that is an obviously desperate deflection from the OP anyway.

Do you defend Hillary's support for Kyl-Lieberman and Cheney's "pipe dream" and her rebuke of Webb?
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. S. 970: Iran Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007
Here is your, "research."

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-970">A bill to impose sanctions on Iran and on other countries for assisting Iran in developing a nuclear program, and for other purposes

Funny, the language is almost identical to Kyl-Lieberman. Particularily this part:

(8) The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189) and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224 (66 Fed. Reg. 186; relating to blocking property and prohibiting transactions with persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support terrorism).

Now, who is it that needs to do more research again...??
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. The designation of IRG as a "terrorist org" is in both. Nobody (including Obama) is disputing that.
Like I was saying... :eyes:
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Diplomacy was stripped out of the latest resolution
That's why Dodd opposed it. Biden opposed it also. Dodd has also been critical of HRC's vote. HRC is saying that the sanctions would lead to diplomacy. This is not spelled out in the resolution.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Kyl-Lieberman clearly draws Iran into the Iraq conflict, and may encourage a military response.
The word "Iraq" appears nowhere in S. 970, which Obama co-sponsored. They have very different purposes.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Very True n/t
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. Selective outrage always makes me suspicious
I call it a stupid diversion for the Kyle-Lieberman
Amendment to be held up as an acid test to assert that
Hillary Clinton wants or will allow a war with Iran to
occur. Hair splitting over it has become obscene.
Obama (along with Dodd) proposed an earlier Senate
Resolution that also designated parts of Iran's
Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. John
Edwards made a strong point that his policy toward
Iran would involve diplomacy using sticks and carrots
but he never defined his sticks. Both Obama's
earlier version and the Kyle-Lieberman Amendment
were defined and packaged as exactly that type of
stick.

The original version of Kyle-Lieberman said more
militant things also, but that version is not what
passed or what Hillary Clinton actually voted for. Yet
it almost always is those sections of Kyle-Lieberman,
the ones that got deleted, that opponents of Clinton
cite when they use her vote politically against her.
Here is the true story:

TPM coverage/story about the Kyle-Lieberman Amendment
Vote:
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/09/kyllieberman_iran_amendment_passes_by_huge_margin.php

First photodoc of literal changes in the K-L final
wording showing what was removed:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/?resultpage=8&

Second photodoc of literal changes in the K-L final
wording showing
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/?resultpage=9&


The original version came much closer to actually
providing Senate backing for Bush's ability to attack
Iran whenever he wanted to. Which would have been
worse? The mostly neutered K/L Amendment passing by 76
to 22 or a much more hawkish version passing by
something like 59 to 39? Because that may have been
the actual real choice without a back room deal. I am
only speculating I admit, but not wildly so. We do
know that there were last minute negotiations on the
final wording, we do know that the final wording was
much clearer about not authorizing attacks inside of
Iran, and we do know that Hillary Clinton at least
claims she would have opposed the original version and
that she was involved in those closed door
negotiations.

We also know that the entire Democratic Senate
leadership...

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Senate_leadership


...ultimately voted in favor of the revised K/L
Amendment, without exception.

Harry Reid, Majority Leader; Aye
Dick Durbin, Majority Whip; Aye
Patty Murray, Conference Secretary; Aye
Chuck Shumer, Vice-Chairman of the Conference/DSCC
Chairperson; Aye
Debbie Stabenow, Steering Committee Chairperson; Aye

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00349#position


That on the surface is consistent with a deal having
been struck. Durbin in particular is no foreign policy
hawk.

I am posting today from the road and I saved the above text in an email I wrote to myself before leaving, just in case anyone made an issue out of Kyle-Lieberman again. On whole, with the information available to me (but I don't know what went on in the Democratic leadership) I oppose the vote Hillary made - and I'm glad that she scrambled after that vote to clarify that she did not intend for her vote to be misconstrued to justify an attack on Iran. She backed Webb's amendment and signed his letter to the President. I don't like the vote she made but I also don't like the dishonesty displayed by so many who claim it proves she wants war with Iran. Yeah right, she and the majority of Democratic Senators all want a war with Iran. If people really believed that, then why aren't more people putting pressure on all of the other Democratic Senators who supported K-L? I say it's because attacking them doesn't help anyone hurt Clinton's chances to defeat who ever it is they are supporting for the nomination. What? Politics being played? Here at DU? Say it isn't so.





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