Who here knew Biden used to be anti-Roe v. Wade, STILL opposes all abortion right for women who need

[Tejanocrat]

publicly funded health care, STILL says life begins at conception, and STILL opposes third-term abortions even when the fetus develops fatal defects that will cause the fetus to die shortly after birth.

Here's Biden on Meet the Press on April 29, 2007.

Here's a video clip.

[Tejanocrat]

1. "I voted for the partial-birth abortion ban ... I make no apologies for it."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/04/biden_makes_no_.html

[MADem]

2. Who here doesn't know Biden is a STAUNCH Catholic?

You wouldn't ask a devout Jew to sit down to a pork chop dinner, would you?

It's a religious thing with him. Take it into consideration, certainly. But be aware that the President does not "make" law. He only signs law made by the LEGISLATURE into law.

Would it affect his Supreme Court picks? Maybe.

For those who say "Religion shouldn't matter" I say "Grow up." For people who are "devout" they ARE gonna go with what they know.

[Tejanocrat]

3. Yet you bitch about Kucinich -- also a Catholic -- for originally being anti-choice before becoming

pro-choice.

[MADem]

5. I beg your pardon? I'm not a BIDEN supporter, either.

I KNEW Kucinich's record on choice, just like I am fully aware of Biden's views.

Kucinich is a flip flopper for political reasons; Biden is not. He'd probably have more traction if he were pro-choice.

My point is this--don't believe what people TELL you a candidate believes. In this day of computers, if you can't get off your ass and google and read, google and read, to get a clear idea of who you are actually supporting, you--not the candidate--are an ass.

I can't believe how many people here are SHOCKED to learn shit about this candidate or that. They're the same types who think that candidates like Ron Paul "sound" good.

I also am perpetually astounded when, if someone points out a simple fact about a candidate, one is automatically "accused" of being an acolyte. Just because one READS about the candidates doesn't mean one is a booster.

[Tejanocrat]

7. I didn't "accuse" you of being a Biden acolyte. I accuse you of bitching about Kucinich for the same

conduct which you defend Biden over.

[MADem]

9. I'm not "DEFENDING" Biden, though. See, you assume advocacy when there is none.

Stating facts about a candidate's viewpoint is NOT 'defending,' capisce?

Kucinich flipped flopped for political reasons. Biden IS what he IS, and what he has always been--a staunch Catholic. He should have flipped for political reasons, he'd probably be running a strong third if he did.

If you can't see my points there, well, I can't help you. One's a bullshitter who changes his positions for political reasons, the other isn't.

Both aren't "reliable" on the choice issue, no matter what way you slice it.

[fenriswolf]

30. hold on the only

reason you say he flip flopped is because he is in the public spot light and making such a change would be benificial for him. Kucinich has been in the spotlight for awhile now and he made his choice way back when. could it be possible he had a change of heart?

[MADem]

35. No--he decided to run for the presidency. THAT's why he flip-flopped.

Here are some cites to prove the point.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Dennis_Kucinich_Pro_Life

[fenriswolf]

37. oh yes of course

a wiki knows whats going on inside kucinich's head. of course how could I have been so blind. I will now take my marching orders from faceless people who have no qualifications for such an answer.

[MADem]

40. It's not just "a wiki' though--but that's the way to dismiss pesky facts.

It is a wiki that posts cites from several other well-known and NOT 'faceless' sources, which, if you read it, you'd see. It also provides LINKS to those sources. But hey, don't let these facts sway you, if you really just wanna 'believe.'

Of course, DK just woke up one morning before deciding to take a quixotic primary season vacation on the taxpayer dime and just decided, out of the blue, to change that long-held belief.

Yeah, and I'm Santa. I'd better get moving, I'm late to deliver these packages....

Ho, HO, HOOO!!!!

[annie1]

26. damn, now i'm hungry for pork chop

[MADem]

36. A little home made applesauce on the side??? NT

[silverojo]

31. So was Kerry

But you notice he didn't let his religious views interfere with his work as a senator.

[Tejanocrat]

33. I wouldn't ask a devout Jew to sit down to a pork chop dinner, but I'd be pissed if he outlawed pork

based on his religious beliefs.

Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs, but I frown on people using their religious beliefs as a basis to pick and choose laws which apply to people who don't share those beliefs.

[MADem]

34. Well, Biden has said he doesn't want to "outlaw pork"--but his dislike of it is a factor for some,

'as it were...'

[Tejanocrat]

39. Well, he'd outlaw "pork" for poor women on publicly funded health care and third-trimester "pork"

even when, the woman, the woman' doctor, and her god know the fetus isn't viable.

[MADem]

41. And that's a justification for withholding your vote, assuming that is a key issue for you.

As I said upthread, the guy IS a staunch Catholic.

I happen to think religion is a factor to be considered in a candidate--it should be weighed and measured as part and parcel of the entire package--and people who say otherwise are whistling in the dark. Religious beliefs DO affect perspective on issues.

I don't necessarily think that it should be considered in an automatically NEGATIVE way, but if you're especially worried about choice, and that's key for you, maybe a staunch Catholic, a Fundy, or any other faith that has the "no-no" on abortion shouldn't be your first choice.

If you put your "faith" in someone else ignoring theirs, you might be in for disappointment.

[Tejanocrat]

47. If wishy-washiness on abortion rights was Biden's only flaw (or if there were no good candidates), I

might have to compromise, but Biden's rotten on bankruptcy issues (one of the four worst Democrats in the whole Senate), and he's been awful in terms of supporting anti-choice, anti-environment, anti-consumer, anti-labor Bush-appointee judges who many other Democrats have opposed.

Plus, there are plenty of good candidates so I don't have to compromise.

[MADem]

56. Well, whatever. Like I said, you look at the platform and you make your call.

But Biden, if you look at the wishy-washyness on abortion rights, assuming that is a make/break aspect, is WAY less wishy washy, over the LONG haul, than Dennis "Zero to Twenty Six Percent" Kucinich.

And that was the comparison that was being drawn. The issue was choice, and the comparison was those two.

If you want to step back and look at the two of them, on this issue alone, well, they both are "suspicious." But Biden at least articulates his parsing a bit better than DK.

But... whatever. I haven't picked a candidate yet. I doubt it will be either of those two. You never know, but they aren't leading the pack in my mind....and this is an important issue, along with many others.

[Tejanocrat]

57. On abortion, Biden went from shitty to moderately bad and Kucinich went from shitty to great.

[MADem]

59. That's not entirely correct. Biden went from somewhat lousy to a hundred percenter, and

Kucinich went from a ZERO percenter to a hundred percenter.

If you're going to be accurate.

[Tejanocrat]

60. Hundred percenter? He's 100% anti-abortion for women on public health care, and 100% anti-3rd term

abortion no matter the circumstances and no matter what the woman and her doctor decide.

[MADem]

62. NARAL, to which I have linked in this thread several times, bases their percentage assessments on

DEEDS, not words.

To state it plainly, they don't go with how those gums flap and the hot air that comes out of the candidates, they go with the way the candidate actually VOTES.

That's why, percentage-wise, Kucinich does so much worse, on average and over time, than Biden.

[Tejanocrat]

63. Because the ranking goes by votes, Biden does fine during years where there are no votes on publicly

funded health care and the rights of women to reproductive choice when they are on such health care plans or the general right to third-term abortions.

I'm not saying that Biden is as bad as Huckabee; he's just worse than all the other Democratic candidates on the issue of reproductive rights (among other areas where Biden is the weakest candidate, such as bankruptcy protections and supporting crappy Bush nominee judicial nominations which most good Democrats opposed).

[MADem]

66. Take the methodology up with NARAL if you don't like it. It's their system!

And I'm not a Biden supporter, simply someone who likes accuracy in discussions.

I rather doubt I will vote for Biden, though I haven't yet decided who I will vote for yet. I agree he isn't the best on the choice issue, but I trust Kucinich as far as I trust Mitt "Flip Flop" Romney on the issue, too. A leopard doesn't change his spots, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and so forth.

It doesn't terribly matter at the end of the day. Neither one is gonna grace the White House except as a visitor.

[Didereaux]

4. BUT Biden would NOT litmus a USSupCt nominee on the issue...

Be careful tagging people. The differentiation that is of paramount importance is does the person overlay their official office with 'official' religious edicts. Biden (and I am an AVOWED anti-religionist) has in his career on the judicial committee not placed a religious test on a nominee. I do not always agree with Biden, particularly his personal stance on abortion, but I do trust him on this issue - we would get a fair, intelligent USSupCt nominee from him...and THAT my friends is the BIGGEST single issue in this election.

[Tejanocrat]

6. Nor would Kucinich.

[dtotire]

8. He Would Still Make the Best Candidate n/t

[Didereaux]

22. I agree whole-heartedly...BIDEN be da man!

[rucky]

10. Roe would still stand under Biden.

He's clear about that, and that's all you need to know.

[Tejanocrat]

12. Only because Biden flip-flopped on Roe v. Wade. How can Biden supporters beat up Kucinich on this

issue when Biden was also anti-choice before he was semi-pro-choice (i.e., pro-choice for rich women, anti-choice for poor women who need publicly funded health care and anti-choice for women who learn during the third trimester that their fetus is suffering from a fatal defect)?

[rucky]

14. I am a Kucinich supporter, as well.

Roe is safe with any Democrat. It's a non-issue.

[TwilightGardener]

11. Biden is a Catholic. He and I hold the same views. Nothing wrong with it.

[LostinVA]

20. I don't want to assume, so: are you saying you're anti-choice?

[TwilightGardener]

27. No, I believe abortion should be legal, for all those who don't believe--as I do--

that life begins at conception.

[Tejanocrat]

32. Do you believe that rich women who can afford private insurance should enjoy that right and poor

women who have publicly funded health care should not enjoy that right?

If a woman and her doctor get a fetal test result at the 26th week of her and learn that the fetus probably won't be born alive and if it is, it certainly won't live more than a few hours outside the womb, and the doctor and the woman decide it is in her best interest to terminate the pregnancy, do you support a law would criminalize that choice?

[jillan]

64. You do know your candidate is pro-life ---- don't you?

I just learned about it in Mother Jones' latest edition.

He changed to pro-life the day before he announced his candidacy in 2003.
They awarded him with a pair of flip-flops.

[donsu]

13. didn't know, thanks - cross him off the list

anti abortion is anti woman

[Kceres]

18. I totally agree. I just changed my mind about Biden.

Thanks for the information. Anti-choice = anti-woman PERIOD.

[MonkeyFunk]

15. Did Biden ever get 0% ratings from NARAL?

Was he ever entirely anti-choice?

[Tejanocrat]

16. When Roe v. Wade came out, he opposed it. More recently, he got a 36% NARAL rating.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. How recently?

He has a 100% rating in 2006.

All I'm saying is that I don't recall Biden ever being 100% anti-choice, like Kucinich was.

[Tejanocrat]

24. Biden had a 36% rating from NARAL on December 31, 2003

source: http://www.issues2000.org/2008/Joe_Biden_Abortion.htm

[MADem]

43. And he's been rated a hundred percent in the subsequent years.

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/biden.html

Here's his full record, showing his evolution over the decades: http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/candidate-record-biden.pdf

2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent
2004: 100 percent
2003: 36 percent
2002: 100 percent
2001: Because only one choice‐related vote was taken in 2001 – to confirm John Ashcroft as
United States Attorney General – no numerical score was given for the year. Sen. Biden
voted pro‐choice.
2000: 90 percent
1999: 46 percent
1998: 65 percent
1997: 34 percent
1996: 43 percent
1995: 33 percent
1994: No numerical scores were given this year; of the three choice‐related votes taken in 1994,
Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on all three.
1993: 60 percent
1992: 100 percent
1991: 85 percent
1990: 85 percent
1989: No numerical scores were given this year; of the two choice‐related votes taken in 1989,
Sen. Biden voted anti‐choice on both.
1988: No numerical scores were given this year; of the 14 choice‐related votes taken in 1988,
Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on one, anti‐choice on one, and was absent from 11.
1987: No numerical scores were given this year; of the two choice‐related votes taken in 1987,
Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on both.
1986: No numerical scores were given this year; of the six choice‐related votes taken in 1986,
Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on four, anti‐choice on one, and was absent from one.
1985: No numerical scores were given this year; of the four choice‐related votes taken in 1985,
Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on two and anti‐choice on two.
1984: No numerical scores were given this year; of the two choice‐related votes taken in 1984,
Sen. Biden voted anti‐choice on both.
1983: No numerical scores were given this year; of the seven choice‐related votes taken in
1983, Sen. Biden voted pro‐choice on two and anti‐choice on five.

And here's Kucinich's ranking: http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/candidate-record-kucinich.pdf

Rep. Kucinich received the following scores on NARAL Pro‐Choice America’s Congressional
Record on Choice:
2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent
2004: 100 percent
2003: 100 percent
2002: 25 percent
2001: 0 percent
2000: 0 percent
1999: 14 percent
1998: 18 percent
1997: 12 percent

[medicswife]

19. How can you call the author of the violence against women act

anti woman? Just because someone has a personal belief does not mean that they will legislate it. Biden has stated many times that he won't appoint judges who would try to overturn Roe vs. Wade. He believes that a woman has a right to choose based on our Constitutional right to privacy, and being as he teaches Constitutional Law as well as being the Senator from Delaware should tell you that he will protect our Constitutional rights.

[hayu_lol]

21. Have to give credit to Biden when he earns it...

he has always been honest about his stands on this. Unlike Repugs, he at least will supply money to raise the kids after they are born.

With Dennis, it was an entirely different matter. He threw his beanie into the race in the last election. At that time, his stance was actively against Roe v Wade. Against abortion for any reason. Within a few weeks, he found himself the subject of attacks from across the country for this stance.

He quickly flip-flopped, but not all the way. He was sort of sly about it. His full comment was that he would not make choice a litmus test for federal judgeships including SCOTUS nominees. He remains essentially, personally, opposed to choice. Yeah, that is a political flip-flop.

It neither helped nor hindered his campaign.

[Tejanocrat]

25. I didn't call Biden anti-women. I was just pointing out Biden's record on reproductive choice after

some Biden supporters were commenting on Kucinich's record on this issue.

Both Kucinich and Biden are Catholic, and both were once anti-choice. Kucinich is now 100% pro-choice, but Biden is now mainly pro-choice but not for women on publicly funded health care or wome who learn that their fetus is non-viable during the third term.

[gateley]

23. Biden STAUNCHLY supports Roe v Wade -- regardless of what his personal

opinion may or may not be.

In one of the debates he said he would ask any SCOTUS potential if they support Roe v Wade, if not, they wouldn't be considered for the position. Period.

And you have a problem with that, why?

Here's a link of him answering the debate question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keuQ34cXaVo

[1corona4u]

38. This is such a lame attempt by the OP...

It was even hard for me to decide to respond. Joe's not injecting his religion into this issue, and he specifically said;



This is from the CNN/Nevada debate. Read the privacy part;

(truncated)

BLITZER: All right, let's go through the whole panel. I want everybody to weigh in; this is an important question that was raised with Senator Biden.

Would you insist that any nominee for the U.S. Supreme Court supported abortion rights for women?

BIDEN: I will answer both. Answer your question first.

Your question first. I've provided over more Supreme Court justices than anyone in American history -- number one.

Number two, I have taken on those justices who, in fact, show no balance -- they are ideologues. We have enough ideologues. We have enough professors on the bench.

I want someone who ran for dog catcher. I want someone -- literally, not a joke. When Hillary's husband asked me for his advice when he was appointing people, I wanted to go to people and so did he -- we couldn't. Four people turned it down.

We wanted to get someone who, in fact, knew what it was to live life. Knew what it was -- not as some intellectual feat.

(APPLAUSE)

And by the way, the next person that is appointed in a Biden administration is going to be a woman. We don't have enough women on the bench, number one.

Number two, to Suzanne Malveaux's question, I would not appoint anyone who did not understand that Section 5 of the 14th Amendment and the liberty clause of the 14th Amendment provided a right to privacy. That is the question I would ask. If that is answered correctly, that that is the case, then it answers the question, which means they would support Roe v. Wade.






http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/15/se.02.ht...


NON ISSUE.

[Eurobabe]

45. As do I , but I am NOT a fan of partial birth

or late trimester abortions for the purpose of birth control. (Unless the health of the mother is in danger, or the fetus is irreparably damaged.) :shrug:

Joe Biden would not reverse Roe V. Wade. OP needs to Chill.

[maxanne]

48. there is no such thing as

partial birth abortion. It is not a medical term. It is a hysterical term coined by the far right.

NO ONE has a late term abortion for the purposes of "birth control." Late term abortions are most often done to save the life of the mother.

If right wing rhetoric and ignorance is supposed to persuade me to vote for Biden.....it's not working.

[Eurobabe]

50. OK, so let's call it 'I am sorry I waited TOO LONG'

Bullshit on your reply - I know of a girl who was smart enough, but for reasons like fear, waited until her 5-6th month to have an abortion, was driven to NJ by an acquaintance and had this procedure done. The fetus was healthy, she just didn't want to have the baby.

In my mind this is wrong. Abortion should be safe and legal for all women, but can we agree, if possible, let's have it done early?

No one on this thread cares if you vote for Biden anyhow, we are just defending our candidate against those who would spread lies. Biden is NOT going to do away with Roe v. Wade, get a grip-

[Tejanocrat]

51. 88% of abortions occur during the 1st 12 weeks of pregnancy; less that 1% during the 3rd trimester.

3rd trimester abortions occur for many reasons, including because the woman did not learn until the 3rd trimester of a fatal defect in the fetus (or a 3rd-term-developed health complication for the woman).

Why should abortion not be a decision between a woman and her doctor under such circumstances?

[Eurobabe]

52. Read what I said in my first post...

if the life of the mother is in danger and/or the fetus is defective, I think it should remain a personal decision.

What I am against is decisions like this young acquaintance made, afraid to tell her family, waiting till the last minute.

READ: I am pro-choice. I remain that way.

[Tejanocrat]

58. But Biden would outlaw third-term abortions even where the fetus has a fatal defect, not to mention

outlawing all abortion rights for women on public health care.

[1corona4u]

53. Exactly...

this is just another feeble attempt by the OP to start some shit about Biden, and of course, it's total bullshit anyway.

[lumpy]

54. Hear hear. And that's the way it is.

Late term 'abortion' = the big lie
Many years ago during childbirth, before the advent of common c-sections, one of my sisters was faced with the possibility that it was either her or the child. Fortunately at the last minute the child came forth; otherwise it was to be a very difficult decision. Who really can believe that a woman would choose to 'abort' a late term child or that a doctor would agree to perform such an operation.

[Tejanocrat]

65. I agree 100%

[annie1]

28. Interesting. i didn't know that.

[eridani]

29. Biden is the only Dem candidate with a current NARAL grade of less than A

Of course he would still beat the bejeezus out of any Repub on this issue.

[MADem]

42. No he isn't. What a BLATANT falsehood. NARAL doesn't even GIVE letter grades.

Let's cut the fiddling about and cut to the chase, why don't we?

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/biden.html

This is straight from NARAL, and straight from Biden:

Senator Joe Biden (D-DE)
Choice Statement:
Sen. Joe Biden submitted the following statement upon NARAL Pro-Choice America's request.

"I am a long-standing supporter of Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose. The Supreme Court's intellectually dishonest and paternalistic opinion in Gonzales v. Carhart makes clear that the Bush-appointed conservative majority is tipping the scales against Roe. I am concerned that the decision lays the groundwork for undoing Roe v. Wade and is a sad consequence of Bush's initiative to remake the Supreme Court. I opposed the nominations of Justices Roberts and Alito. I believe that the fundamental right of privacy should be protected, and if elected, I will nominate candidates to the Supreme Court who share my values.

"Roe v. Wade protections only have real meaning if women can safely exercise their rights, that is why I voted for the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act and have consistently supported providing access to military women serving abroad. I support reasonable judicial bypass requirements in parental notification provisions. I do not agree with criminalizing adults who help young women access abortions - we need to support young girls, not isolate them. Finally, I have consistently opposed the Mexico City Policy, and other "gag" rules, and believe that non-governmental entities should spend their private resources as they see fit, including providing reproductive health services."

Voting Record:
Sen. Biden received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.


2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent
2004: 100 percent
2003: 36 percent
2002: 100 percent
2001: Because only one choice-related vote was taken in 2001 – to confirm John Ashcroft as United States Attorney General – no numerical score was given for the year. Sen. Biden voted pro-choice.


Click here to view all of Sen. Biden's scores from 1977-2006. http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/candidate-record-biden.pdf

Public Statements about Choice:
A selection of Sen. Biden's public statements on this issue is below.

"I strongly support Roe v. Wade. I wouldn't have a specific question but I would make sure that the people I sent to be nominated for the Supreme Court shared my values; and understood that there is a right to privacy in the constitution."



When asked to address his support of the ban on so-called "partial-birth" abortions, Biden responded "I did and I do."



In expressing his support of the Freedom of Choice Act of 1992, Biden stated, "Personal freedom is the touchstone of our national character – a basis from which we should depart in only the most specific circumstances. As a result, and given the great division over the ethical and moral questions surrounding abortion in this country, I have believed that, as an elected official, the best policy for our country on the question of abortion is a policy of Government neutrality. Put another way: I do not believe that the government should be involved in making judgments on whether a woman can, or should have an abortion, or – if she chooses to do so – in paying for that abortion. Thus, throughout my tenure in the senate, I have opposed legislative proposals and constitutional amendments to abolish a woman's right to choose. But at the same time, I have also voted against legislative proposals to provide Federal funding for abortions."

That's where he sits on the issue. If it's not sufficiently comforting, one should not vote for the man. But misrepresenting him is not justifiable.

[1corona4u]

46. Now you're really going to make their heads spin...

by posting the facts. LOL. Thanks for posting them!

[MADem]

55. I just cannot STAND this stupid bullshit!!!!!!!!!!

I am not a Biden fan, I am still undecided. I will decide in Jan--but I rather doubt my choice will be Biden, honestly. Could be, but I think not.

That said, I can't fucking stand the bullshit I see here, where people flat out LIE about a candidate's record because they don't like their platform or opinions, and ascribe views to them that are not the truth.

I'll correct the record for any of them, from the upstart Obama, to the evil Hillary, to the 'who the fuck does he think he is' Edwards. Even the "too fat" Richardson, or the "Why did that fool even bother" Dodd. About the only one I'm a bit short with is Kucinich--I just think he's vacationing on the taxpayer's dime, and not giving HALF the value that Sharpton did.

I can't STAND this sad and unfortunate (but ever-present) aspect of this forum, to be honest. The mendacity is rightwingish, sorta-kinda.

[livvy]

44. OK, You got me....

Who here knows that Milky the Clown was able to grow a mustache? Who here knows that Elsie the Cow had sex with the studliest bull on the ranch, whenever and as often as she could?

The important thing is what Biden would do now. The important thing is how he could lead. There are a number of things that are important right now, so important that a number of people would find it impossible to do, no matter what they say. It doesn't matter what someone said eighty-two years ago. What matters is what will be the result of your doings eighty-two years in the future.

[no name no slogan]

49. Before 1988, Al Gore was also "pro-life"

what's your point?

[jillan]

61. Dennis Kucinich was pro-life until he ran for President.

Biden will do all he can to protect Roe v Wade

[demommom]

68. "Biden will do all he can to protect RoevWade"..........

Either from the oval office or the Senate!!

[ThomWV]

67. He is on record supporting Roe v. Wade and will not appoint Judges who oppose it. You want more?

[Czolgosz]

69. I want more. I want abortion rights for women on public health care and I want Biden's nose out of

medical decisions of women who learn that their fetus is not viable during the third term.

Is that asking so much?