Obama lies. Will it be dismissed? Probably, but here it is nonetheless.

[Skip Intro]

I'll bet many supporters will dismiss this, and hell, he's just playing the game, of course. I'm sure it will be said, "oh, all politicians do that." But is that really the defense Obama would like to be remembered? Hell, he's just like any other calcuating politician? That's ok, really, but it doesn't keep the "different kind of politics" meme, and the "change" meme afloat in this instance. "He changed his mind," I guess, could be used to explain such statements, but c'mon - you tellin' me the guy didn't know in 06 that he was going to be running for president in 07?

But here, I'll let him speak for himself:

---------------------------

MR. RUSSERT: There’s been enormous speculation about your political future, Senator. The man you succeeded in the Senate, Peter Fitzgerald, a Republican, said this recently. “I think there’s a very good chance that Senator Obama is on the Democratic ticket in 2008 as the vice presidential nominee.” Do you agree?

SEN. OBAMA: No. You know, I can’t speculate on those kinds of things. What I have said is that, you know, I’m not focused on running for higher office, I’m focused on doing the job that the people of Illinois just sent me to do.

MR. RUSSERT: But there seems to be an evolution in your thinking. This is what you told the Chicago Tribune last month: “Have you ruled out running for another office before your term is up?” Obama answer: “It’s not something I anticipate doing.” But when we talked back in November of ‘04 after your election I said, “There’s been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your six-year term as United States senator from Illinois?” Obama: “Absolutely.”

SEN. OBAMA: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.

MR. RUSSERT: So you will not run for president or vice president in 2008?

SEN. OBAMA: I will not.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909406/
--------------------------

[1corona4u]

1. Whoa...

[143tbone]

2. I don't consider that a lie

and I am not supporting Obama. I consider that changing one's mind.

[WCGreen]

3. He's just another politician....

That's all...

He talks better than some and has "youth" going for him...

But when it comes right down to it...

There really is nothing that special about Obama...

[Zueda]

59. And if you look at his Illinois poll numbers...

I don't think his constituents are too offended. :shrug:

[oldtime dfl_er]

4. so...

...now let's see....where are those pesky WMDs? Are they under this table? No...(giggle giggle)

(now THAT'S lying.)

[SoxFan]

5. Wasn't there a candidate for guv of Arkansas

who made a pledge to serve out his term? I think it was during the 1990 Democratic primary. Bill something or other I think was his name...

[K Gardner]

6. Oh man... where ARE all these straws we are grasping at around here?

[snowbear]

7. UR Going Off the Deep End - - - - - - -

- - - and that is sad.

[cali]

8. why isn't it possible to believe that at the time

he was sincere?

[sk8rrobert2]

9. A lie? Technically yes, but It is just if he is running not anything to serious

[PresidentObama]

10. Desperation at it's finest.

[BeyondGeography]

11. Illinois Democratic voters are pissed about this

They only give Obama a 50-25 edge over Hillary in the latest poll.

[JohnnyLib2]

12. I'm stunned. THIS has never happened before.

(and a tip of my Hillary hat to Obamanation) :evilgrin:

[gmudem]

13. I'm sure "Senator" Clinton has never said anything like that

Next please.

[Tom Rinaldo]

78. FWIW, only since you brought it up

When Hillary Clinton ran for the Senate from New York in 2000 she promised voters there that she would serve out her full 6 year term in office. In 2002 and 2003 the press and many Republicans kept assuming that she would announce for President in 2004 and she actually led the earliest Demoratic polls, but Hillary repeated that she said she would serve a full Senate term when she ran in 2000 and she would not change her plans. When Senator Clinton ran again for the Senate from NY in 2006 she was asked if would serve another full term and she did not make the same pledge. Instead she said she was focused on winning her reelection and wasn't looking at future decisions yet.

[Armstead]

80. More Clinton Parsing -- Slick Hilly at it again

Technically, she didn't really lie.

But why didn't she level with the voters of New York and say "I'm thinking seriously of running for President, so you might not have a full-term Senator -- or even a full-time one."

[Tom Rinaldo]

84. How dumb do you think people are anyway?

Everyone in New York knew full well that Clinton did not commit to serving a full term the second time she ran because she was keeping an option open to run for President in 2008. Absolutely no one was confused by her statements. She did not want to talk about a possible presidential run literally while she was runing for the Senate in 2006 - there is nothing odd about that. Clinton leveled with people by NEVER promising to serve a full second term when she was asked, as opposed to the first time she ran when she was willing to make that pledge. But the reports I've seen say that she did not make the final decision to run in 2008 until approximately New Year's day this year. It was not certain when she ran for reelection in 2006 if she would run for President - and it wasn't certain she wouldn't either. Clinton's public comments in 2006 were completely appropriate.

[Armstead]

86. We must agree to disagree on that

I assume that she had every intention of running for President, all along.

In 2004 the storyline was that she could have the nomination if she wanted it. After being cute about it, she decided to wait until she wasn't running against an incumbent president.

She also had no significant opposition in her 2nd Senate run. So she had the luxury of not having to answer that question.

Maybe that's typical for a politician. I'm just sayin' the defense of that against Obama's statements are typical of the parsing that always has to go on whenever Clinton's statements or actions are discussed.

[Tom Rinaldo]

87. I haven't attacked Obama's statements

but it sure doesn't seem fair to me to attack Clinton's statements as weasly parsing in order to defend Obama. It was implied above in an earlier post that Clinton made the same type of comments that Obama did. That is to say indicating that she did not plan to run for President during her Senate Term but then turning around and doing exactly that. That is false. I have not blasted Obama over this but what the two Sentors said and did in regards to this differed.

Bottom line is that Clinton told NY's voters the first time she ran that she would serve her full term if elected and then she did. Clinton did not make a similar pledge when she was asked about it during her reelection campaign. She would not say she intended to finish her second term if reelected. She was reelected and now she is looking for a promotion.

Where we do differ is that I believe she did answer the relevent question for NY's voters in 2006 which was "will you pledge to serve out your full term if reelected". She would not. Voters knew the only reason she might not finish her second term as Senator would be if she ran for President. We all knew here in NY that Hillary Clinton was positioning herself to run for President, she wasn't deceiving anyone with a carefully crafted evasive message.

No doubt in 2006 Hillary was very very seriously eying a run for President, I know that. I know that she hoped to run for President in 2008 back in 2006. So did some other folks hope to make that race at around the same time; including Mark Warner, Evan Bayh, Wes Clark, Russ Feingold, Tom Vilsak, John Kerry etc. They all later pulled back, at or near the brink. Hillary Clinton is a seasoned enough politician to understand that wanting to run for President and actually throwing the final switch and declaring for President are two different steps in a decision making sequence. There was also serious talk of a deal whereby she might move up to become the Senate Majority Leader if she stayed out of the Presidential Race. The final decision to run did not have to be made in 2006, just the preperations that would advance her ability to run and win if she gave the final green light when the need for a final decision was upon her. No, blood, no file, no evasion.

[ClarkUSA]

14. From 1/06 to 1/07 Obama changed his mind. Hillary parsed illegal DL positions 3x in 2 minutes.

Who's the liar?

[ruggerson]

15. The politics of HOPE!

As in, hope that you forget what I said last year!

[ClarkUSA]

16. So, has your candidate ever changed his/her mind? Do you call him/her a liar for doing so?

Just curious.

[ruggerson]

17. My candidate was asked if he was running early on

and said (I paraphrase) well, I could play coy games with you, but, yes I'm running for President.

He didn't hedge, hem, haw or obfuscate. (although he has been accused of being verbose at times.)

[ClarkUSA]

20. Did your candidate change his mind about, say, his IWR/Patriot Act/Bankruptcy Bill votes?

Is he a liar three times over, then, if he did -- or just a liar twice over (does he still support his Bankruptcy Bill vote)?

Or would you say he changed his mind?

[Zueda]

60. Are you suggesting that it's not at all possible that...

Barack was sincere when he made this statement?

[mahina]

18. Personal attack.

a) This is not a lie, he changed his mind.
b) That is a personal attack, and as such it reflects negatively on you.

[Skip Intro]

22. awww, I'm sorry for highlighting Obama's past statements

How dare anyone actually point out that what he said in the recent past doesn't mesh with his words and actions in the present.

Poor guy.

I'm so ashamed.

[ClarkUSA]

24. You need to join Hillary's "Likability Tour" because your charm overshadows hers by a mile

Maybe you could give her lessons on how to get more people to like her, too. You could be her mentor on how to win friends.

Really.

[Skip Intro]

25. you need to get some new lines n/t

[ClarkUSA]

26. C'mon, pack your bags! Hillary needs you to teach her how to get people to like her.

You're not going to let her down, are you? What kind of staffer, er, I mean, supporter are you?

[Skip Intro]

27. oh man, that's rich.

the biggest shill on the board calling me a staffer -

please, keep it comin'

[ClarkUSA]

32. Don't be so modest. You're much more likable than Hillary.

More likable than Bill, even.

[Skip Intro]

33. flattery I like, but doesn't make Obama qualified to be present

er...I mean president

[ClarkUSA]

35. How'd Hillary's "experience" tell her to vote on IWR and Kyl-Lieberman again?

I forgot.

[Skip Intro]

38. Same way as Obama voted...oh wait, he had other things to do, didn't he.

Well, at least when KL came up. Even though he supported the measure in principle.


On the IWR, he stated in 04 that there wasn't much differenc between he and bush - yes BUSH - on Iraq. He also said he didn't know how he would have voted if he'd been there (not that he would have voted had he been in the US senate, that being a tough vote and all, he might have called in sick, judging by his record of his short time in the US Senate). He also said he could see how people who voted for the IWR could have arrived at that conclusion.


But again, don't let his recent prior words and actions/inactions interefere with your spinning. I'd hate to see you lose your balance.

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

42. What "experience" did Hillary have "neutralizing all of Bill's women"?

Andrew Young said she had a lot. Voters want to know.

[Skip Intro]

45. Why don't we just skip to Vince Foster, there, fellow Democrat?

[ClarkUSA]

55. Why not keep "wondering" whether Obama was a drug dealer, instead? Or if he went to a madrassa?

That's more up your alley, fellow Democrat.

[Skip Intro]

56. And I said that where? You just brought up Bill's "women" to slam Hillary.

Please, tell me more about his new kind of politics of hope...

:eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

62. Please, tell me how Hillary is the "change agent" Bill keeps muttering about these days?

:eyes:

[Skip Intro]

72. I should probably wait on you to change the subject again, eh?

[emilyg]

47. I like her. I like her!!!!

[ClarkUSA]

51. True. She's a lucky candidate, too, to have you as a supporter.

:hi:

[mtnsnake]

34. Yeah sure. Maybe they'll let Barry Bonds use that argument to ward off going to jail

"Your Honor. I didn't lie when I said under oath that I never used steroids. I just changed my mind."

[madrchsod]

19. since i voted for him i hope he does get the whitehouse

because that would mean illinois will have another democratic senator and a home state guy running the country. that`s a win-win for illinois. now hillary could have had the seat her in illinois-her "home state" but someone cleared the deck for her to be installed in new york.

[FogerRox]

21. Thats it, I'm never voting for Obama

kidding.

Absolutely pointless OP.

[sniffa]

23. he knew that was lie then - he had been planning his run since Kindergarten

[rep the dems]

52. Well maybe not *that* early.

But definitely when he was being raised as a terrorist in a school for Muslim extremists :sarcasm:

[sniffa]

69. .....

:rofl:

indeed. :hi:

[Evergreen Emerald]

28. Silly--don't you know the rules? if Obama says it we are not allowed to look at it

It is only if Clinton said it or thought it or one of her supporters thought it, or someone lied and said she said it--that is when we get to bring it up--ad naseum.

[annie1]

29. he's not my guy, but that's not a lie. it's a broken promise.

[ClarkUSA]

44. Where is the word "promise". It was a statement. He changed his mind a year later.

After being begged by scores of people inside and outside the Democratic party.

[Skip Intro]

46. And all the pieces just happened to be in place? Yup. And TR just asked out of the blue - no signs

of an Obama run or anything.

:eyes:

[annie1]

50. "I will not". It's not a big deal, but at worst it's a broken promise. b/c....

basically, he has promised to serve his term. he said "i will not run". IMO, that's a promise.

[MethuenProgressive]

30. He should've just answered "Present!" to that question.

:rofl:

[Skip Intro]

31. rofl - hey, that's not a personal attack, is it???!!!

you know, any critique that doesn't end in starry-eyed priase is a despicable personal attack

:rofl:

[mahina]

70. Nope. "Ad Hominem" attack means an attack against the man,

not the action. Even reading your bolded text, you are saying that he had no intention to run at that time. That is well known. It took a lot of work to persuade him to consider running. When he made that statement, he believed it completely. That is not a lie. That is a change.

Calling it a lie, calling him a liar, actually is a despicable personal attack.

But I wouldn't call you a liar.

[jefferson_dem]

36. Recycling age-old, well-debunked straw men smears...

Uh huh. Well done. You get an A+.

[mtnsnake]

37. WTF?

:wtf:

[jefferson_dem]

41. My thoughts exactly...

:wtf: indeed.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skip Intro]

43. Oh dear, I hope "the one" is forgiving...Maybe I should atone immediately.

I'm sorry, O (and the other O), I didn't mean to step out of line by asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies. I beg your forgiveness. Oh, One, please, find it within your great wisdom and unparalleled judgment to forgive this wayward soul...

:puke:

Ridiculous, isn't it?

"The ONE" - oooohhhhh

[ClarkUSA]

48. Bob Vila said Hillary was the "Hammer" when he endorsed her.

Of course, Bill is the "Nail". :rofl:

[CyberPieHole]

40. Obama's "Politics of Hope" is all Smoke and Mirrors...

it is not based on reality. Change is something his supporters "hope" for but they are just getting a senator who has nothing to offer other than his inexperience.

:kick:

[Skip Intro]

53. Hey control, we've got another here that can see!

[CyberPieHole]

58. All too clearly. I'm not buying what Obama is selling.

Is that pic from C.H.U.D. (Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers)?

[Skip Intro]

67. Nah, it's a takeoff from "They LIve"

I was looking for a good pic from the movie (have you seen it?) but that was more handy.



Congrats on not drinking the Obama koolaide.

[CyberPieHole]

76. I must have seen it on cable, cause it looks familiar...

Obama lost me with his pandering to McClurkin. I think Obama is the least viable of all our candidates.

[Fried Bread]

49. Should it be dismissed? YES

[Skip Intro]

54. Why?

[Fried Bread]

57. Because it's petty.

It isn't as though he is lying outright about policy or something substantive. He changed his mind about running for higher office. Gimme a break. Changes in mind about such things SHOULD be dismissed. Had Al Gore run in '08, his change of mind should have been dismissed as well.

[mahina]

61. Find personal attacks humorous?

Nothing funny there. Consider for one moment how it would read with "x " lies, yourself, or your candidate. It does not serve the debate and it weakens your argument.


Main Entry: character assassination
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: attack someone's reputation
Synonyms: ad hominem, blackening, dirty politics, dirty pool, dirty tricks, hatchet job, muckraking, mudslinging, name-calling, personal attack, slanderous attack, smear, smear campaign


Main Entry: smear campaign
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: attempt to defame another
Synonyms: character assassination, defamation, defamation of character, dirty politics, dirty pool, injury of reputation, malicious defamation, mudslinging, negative campaign, negative campaigning, personal attack, slander

[Skip Intro]

91. So would that be like when Obama called Hillary disingenous? Or compared her to bush/cheney/romney..

Or does it only count when you percieve it being aimed at your candidate?

[hedgehog]

63. Am I the only one who can remember back to last fall when people

were begging Obama to run?
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600703.html)
He was planning on waiting but the pressure from people who wanted him to run convinced him that this was the year.

FWIW, I can remember another Democrat who agonized about whether he should run to address the problems he saw (ending an unjust war, fighting racism, fighting poverty)even though it would mean confronting the party leader. People are still condemning his decision, too.

[BenDavid]

64. to tim it's not a lie,tim dreams about clinton's penis

[Name removed]

65. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

66. After Obama became the "Annointed One" by Empress Oprah, all bets were off.(eom)

:toast:

[peoli]

68. I didnt think my wife and I would get divorced

but we did... things fucking change. DUH.

[Radical Activist]

71. Why would Obama lie? Your post is silly.

If Obama knew he wanted to run for office he would have at least given a vague non-answer. He's not stupid. He wouldn't lie and say he planned to finish his term if he was planning to run for President. Obviously, he honestly had no intention of running at that time.

Why not make the most logical conclusion instead of trying so desperately hard to slam Obama?

[Skip Intro]

73. Because he has a record of inconsistencies.

And the conclusion I made is the logical conclusion.

[Radical Activist]

74. He has a lot of spin directed at him.

Obama is the most consistent progressive the race along with Kucinich.

If Obama was planning to run for President then he would not have been stupid enough to say he planned to finish his Senate term. There's no good reason he would lie because he's smart enough to know that it would be used against him later.

[Skip Intro]

75. Obama chides opponents for their every move, but hides from his own words. And is not above attacks.

Those are facts.

I have no personal beef with you, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you have fallen for an illusion. The Obama you think you see doesn't exist. It is manipulation through imagery and tested and deliberate codewords. It's all spin, there is no there, there.

Look hard.

[Radical Activist]

79. How has Obama hidden from his own words?

Please provide real examples of your "facts" that involve his actual record. That doesn't include spin about Obama using supposed "right wing talking points" or the fact that he's friends with Lieberman and other such silliness.

I've known about Obama long before he ran for President. I knew Obama as one of the most liberal members of the Illinois State Senate, a former left wing community activist and civil rights lawyer. I know him as a champion of progressive issues for many years. I looked at him hard when he ran in a competitive US Senate primary and I suggest you do the same.

[Skip Intro]

81. OK, I will. I just do this a good bit, and it seems to kill the conversation.

But ok.


Obama frequently slams Hillary for supporting the Iraq war, which the IWR didn't really do without safeguards, which bush ignored. That has been demonstrated time and time again on this board. Bush ignored key stipulations in the IWR. Not to mention lying to certain members to get their support. The war was a lie. From this insane admin, this criminal admin. But yes, she did vote for the IWR. As did Edwards, and our last candidate Kerry, who I assume you voted for, assuming you were able.


But Obama said himself that his position and bush's - yes, Bush's - were the same. He said he didn't know how he would have voted on the IWR. Of course, he never had to put his words into action in the US Senate on this issue (except when he voted to continue funding the war).


He slams her for voting yea on Kyl/Lieberman, all the while supporting its key points. But how did he vote on K/L? He didn't, he was elsewhere (98 Senators voted on the bill, Obama and McCain missed it).


He is a hypocrite extraordinarie. He chastises others, frequently claiming that what they support, their positions, their actions, should be discarded, but yet, he holds many of the same views, or did recently. Obama criticizes others for votes on issues he declined to vote on - to take a stand on.

He whines about being "attacked" - always changing the subject that raised issues about his qualifications to be president - while calling other candidates "bush/cheney lite."

He talks of hope and change while playing the game like a seasoned pro.



I'll put together a thread tomorrow with clear and sourced examples. They are available now by searching my screen name in advanced search and reading some of those threads.

[Radical Activist]

82. Spin spin spin

I really find it disgusting that people are still trying to excuse those who voted for the war by making arguments about the details of the bill and how Bush lied. It was a vote to authorize use of force and Bush used it. If someone opposed the use of force then the only logical and acceptable choice was to vote against the bill authorizing the use of force. The fact that some people were dumb enough to trust Bush does not make them any more qualified to be President!

Your quotes suggesting Obama has the same position as Bush and Kerry are taken out of context and disingenuously twisted. You know full well that Obama was trying to make his best case for John Kerry when he said he didn't know how he would have voted on Iraq. That should be a lesson about how much harder it is to campaign for anyone that voted for the war in Iraq. It compromises the Democratic ticket.

Obama proposed a bill long ago to pull out troops by March of '08. Is that the same position as Bush? I know you're not that stupid.

How is publicly opposing Kyl/Lieberman the same as voting for it? Could you explain that again? Give me a break. If you want to say he shouldn't be missing votes that's fine, but twisting that into claiming he supported the bill is completely misleading and dishonest.

You obviously don't like Obama but that's no good reason to adopt talk radio tactics.

[Skip Intro]

83. what? where is the spin. Obama's own words prove what I just said.

Ignore it and insult me if you must.


Yeah, do I know he was trying to make his best case for K/E? Well, I have only his words to rely on there. Did he use the excuse to say he didn't know how he would have voted on the IWR? Yep. Did he miss the K/L vote, even though he supported designating the IRG a terrorist org? Yep. Did he claim that US forces in Iraq be used to blunt some Iranian threat? Yep. What is his big beef with the Kyl/Lieberman bill? Please answer that quesion.

Again, you have fallen for an illusion.

Please respond.

[Lurking Dem]

88. I am so sick of this

one quote from Obama appearing over and over and over again that came from, of all people, Tim Russert and gets regurgitated over and over again from people who wouldn't take Russert's word on anything else.

He cut the quote off making Obama's acknowledgment that he wasn't there so can't say anything with 100% assurance and leaves off, "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."

[Skip Intro]

90. He also said there wasn't much room between him and bush on Iraq, was tha out of context too?

But of course he explained that away as being political calculation, not really what he meant at all.

So which Obama do you believe?


I'm sure you're sick of it, I would be too if I had to defend him.

[KingFlorez]

77. There is a difference between changing your mind and lying

Lots of public officials change their minds about running for higher office or even re-election. It's common and it's really reaching to try and say that Obama lied.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. I used to tell people I'd never get married. I'm getting married next year.

OMG I'M A LIAR!!1! SOMEONE TELL MY BETROTHED!!1!1!

Is this the best you've got? :eyes:

[gulliver]

89. Obama clearly broke his word, but it is probably not a lie.

As has been noted, he was most likely very certain he would not run. So he wasn't saying something he knew to be false.

On the other hand, he clearly broke his word. When someone says something as clear cut as "I will not," they are giving their word. There are lots of ways to soften that in some way (he changed his mind, was persuaded to run by a moral cause that outweighs his word...). However, I would like to know how he himself addresses it rather than speculate.

Good post!

By the way, I value promises more than plans, myself. Plans can change. Promises can't. You keep them or you break them. Usually you avoid making them if you are not sure you are willing to pay any price to keep them. One's word is one's bond.

[Tellurian]

92. Obama Lies with ease..

just like he did in his books!

[Dr. Strange]

93. Didn't a certain Arkansas governor promise his constituents that he would complete his term?

And then went on to run for president and kick a certain Bush's ass?

Was that a lie? Did he do the right thing?