Nader told more truth in 5 minutes on MTP than most Dems have in 3 yrs.

[RichM]

On Sunday's Meet the Press, Nader said, among other things, that:

-Bush stole the election of 2000.
-Bush should be impeached.
-Bush led the nation to war based on lies.
-The war was based (in large measure) on oil.
-There is SOME difference between Democrats and Republicans: namely, "Dems are a D+ party; Republicans are D-."
-Bush is a "corporation masquerading as a human being."
-Washington DC has become "corporate-occupied territory."

That's telling it pretty straight. Of the Dems, ONLY Dennis Kucinich talks anything like that, and even he never said all of it on nationwide TV in a single rapid-fire presentation. Even a whore like Russert was so overwhelmed by the power & blunt confidence of Nader's presentation that he sat listening quietly, without raising a single verbal challenge to the above-mentioned points.

Anyone want to hold their breath waiting for, say, Kerry to start talking like that? Can anyone imagine what might have been, if all 250 or so Congressional Dems had been talking like that, for the last few years? When you compare that imagined scenario to what we actually have witnessed, how can anyone not be staggered by the spinelessness & collaborationist nature of most of the Democratic Party?

No wonder Nader throws Democrats into fits of hysteria. He reminds them of their shame; of what they should have been.

[Atlant]

1. Hear, hear! (NT)

[IndianaGreen]

2. He also said that Bush should be impeached because of Iraq

Lying about WMDs to plunge the country into war is high crimes and misdemeanors.

[el_gato]

3. so true

[HFishbine]

4. Right on!

[Iverson]

5. wait a second, RichM

You didn't denounce Nader. Are you sure that your opinions should be permitted?

[pmbryant]

6. "Republicans are a D minus"?

Uh, how in the world do the Republicans get a passing grade for bankrupting the country, initiating an imperialist war based on lies and deception, and acting to demolish almost every progressive policy the government has implemented in recent decades.

:wtf:

--Peter

EDIT: misspelled 'Republicans'

[PVnRT]

10. Well

They haven't declared nuclear war yet. You gotta give them that.

[ShimokitaJer]

12. Lincoln Chaffee and Olympia Snowe ruined the curve

nt

[IndianaGreen]

13. I would have given the Republicans a double F

and the Congressional Democrats a C-.

[kcwayne]

20. Also, they haven't made it a Federal Mandate

to pray 4 times a day, and affix females with chastity belts at birth..... YET!

[ozone_man]

52. To make a point.

Maybe it should be C- for Democrats and F for Republicans, but the point is that the lesser of two evils is still evil.

[pmbryant]

64. Two 'evils' would be two F's

He clearly doesn't think either party is 'evil', or he wouldn't have given both passing grades. So that couldn't have been the point.

--Peter

[ozone_man]

83. Hasn't he refered to them as tweedle dee

and tweedle dum? Maybe he hasn't called them evil, but if you listen to what he says, they are both representing corporate special interests. I think he is saying that the Dems are better only by a few shades. That is the point, I think. That we need real change not just getting rid of tweedle dum for his brother.

[SaddenedDem]

And, when Cynthia McKinney said some of it

They drummed her out of the Democratic party.

We shall NEVER forget.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Where is Cynthia McKinney's nemesis Zell Miller today?

Zell is backing Bush!

[JVS]

53. Pretty damn disgusting

[aquart]

7. Uh huh. So vote for him.

Bush/Nader 2004.

Saying one thing and doing another makes Nader the perfect hypocrite, wouldn't you say?

[PVnRT]

8. While I don't personally like Nader

I love it when he gets up there and speaks truth like this. Since Kucinich gets absolutely zero play from the press, maybe this will get more of that message out.

[aquart]

14. Interesting that it took him 3 years to say it.

Where's the fellow been?

[PVnRT]

45. He has been

He just didn't get press coverage because he wasn't running for president at the time.

[Bill McBlueState]

16. same here

I agreed with pretty much everything he said yesterday, except for "I am running for President." It all needs to be repeated over and over again, but now isn't the time for a third-party candidacy.

[CWebster]

9. It's true. nt

[Greyskye]

11. "Hysteria"

No wonder Nader throws Democrats into fits of hysteria. He reminds them of their shame; of what they should have been.

Yeah, he reminds me that Gore should have been in the White House in 2000! Bloody twit! And I say this as an ex-Green Party member. I'll still vote Green for any qualified local candidates, but Nader doesn't even come close to stealing my vote this year!

[ShimokitaJer]

18. Nader didn't "steal your vote"

The Bush cabal did, by making it meaningless, and don't you forget it. This is why it's a good thing that Nader is in the race. If Dems don't even have the balls to point out the blatant GOP corruption in Florida, preferring to blame Nader instead, then why do we think they will ever bring it up as Nader has?

[Greyskye]

24. Clarification

Luckily, I don't have to kick myself for voting for Nader in 2000, as I voted for Gore. And yes, I realize that the GOP corruption in FL was a contributing factor in his 2000 defeat. Do you admit that Nader running in 2000 was also a contributing factor?

[ShimokitaJer]

67. Of course he was a contributing factor

However, the way he is demonized here on DU is far out of proportion to his actual culpability.

In fact, I feel indebted to Nader for running in 2000, just as feel happy he is running in 2004 though I have no intention of voting for him. His presence forces the Democratic Party to address issues which they would prefer no to in their insistence on appealing to potential Bush supporters. In 2000, they staunchly refused to address most of them, and the party platform strategy seemed to be "Just like Bush, but not as much." This year, I pray the Democratic party will address the concerns of its democratic members.

I firmly believe that the only result of Nader's participation will be to make the party stronger. The only thing that can destroy either major party at this point is that party itself.

[Greyskye]

72. Nader's participation

ShimokitaJer sez:
In fact, I feel indebted to Nader for running in 2000, just as feel (sic) happy he is running in 2004 though I have no intention of voting for him.

Let me get this straight. You agree that Nader was a contributing factor in Gore's 'defeat' in 2000. Yet you are "indebted to Nader for running in 2000", and happy that he's running in 2004.

ShimokitaJer sez:
I firmly believe that the only result of Nader's participation will be to make the party stronger.

I hope you are right, yet fear that you are completely wrong. Losing the presidential election again is not going to strengthen the party. :eyes: It's going to give the 'pukes a stranglehold on our democratic process that will be years in the undoing.

[Stone_Spirits]

78. Alright!!!!!

I'm so sick of hearing that he cost the election, when bush stole it, after all he had nothing to do with the thousands of votes that didn't count in FL... ppl wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cocoa]

29. an unusual amount of non-truth too

when he said he thought Gore would have invaded Iraq, I thought he was lying.

And I didn't believe his reason for not publishing his tax forms. Someone like Nader should be in favor of maximal disclosure. I think he's hiding something, and I don't think it's a "retarded child."

[salin]

93. while I usually stay out of these discussions... have to comment

lol - too funny.... great phrase for highlighting non disclosed tax forms (or other papers)... lol.

[mstrsplinter326]

15. I don't believe it

There's no back lash after 5 posts!?!?! I'm kind of new here but I thought everyone here blames Nader all evil in the world. I would have gathered from most of the postings that Nader causes all death and destruction everywhere in the world.

*My Mind is Blown*

And to think I was ready to give up on the Dems. It's you people that give me hope. Thanks

[AP]

17. The trusths were about the corporatocracy and the wealth transfer.

Now there are three voices for this argument: Ku, Ed, and Nader.

[GreenArrow]

27. Sharpton's making those arguments too

don't forget Al.

[AP]

42. Yes, and Al too.

[Richardo]

19. *Excellent* way to capture 2% of the vote!

WTG, Ralph! :eyes:

Yes, it WOULD be nice to hear a Democrat saying those things clearly and distinctly. But for a serious presidential candidate to say them will not win any votes he or she was not going to get anyway, while alienating the swing votes necessary to be elected.

It may be a lot of fun to be a strident dogmatic iconoclast, but it's no way to win an election. Face it, the candidate has got to go toward the middle, not toward the fringe.

[HFishbine]

26. See, that's where you're wrong

I'm not going to vote Dem unless and until I hear them.

[Richardo]

30. We'll miss ya....

For my money, Nader can and should say all of these things from outside the race, unless....

...he plans to pull a Perot and punch out before November. That way he can get his publicity and ultimately not siphon from the Dem candidate. THAT would be OK with me. :thumbsup:

[Nadienne]

31. Toward the middle

so the Dems can more closely resemble the Repubs?

I can hear it now: "I agree with Bush: Civil rights threaten our nation's security..." sayeth the center-seeking nominee... :eyes:

[Richardo]

40. Clinton was a center-seeking nominee and I don't think anyone

...would confuse him for a Bush Republican. As far right as the neocons have taken us, even Nixon looks like a liberal.

I did not say BE at the center, I said to approach the center. You're still coming from the left.

[lams712]

81. Sorry, but Clinton's moving for the center and becoming REPUBLICAN-LITE...

...is why I did not even vote in 1994 and voted for Nader in 2000.

If the Democratic nominee pulls the same crap this year, I WILL VOTE FOR NADER.

However, if the Democratic nominee keeps up the tenor of the current primary campaign, I would have no problem voting for any of the four remaining candidates.

BUT THE KEY IS THEY MUST KEEP UP THE WORK THEY ARE CURRENTLY DOING!!!!

[mstrsplinter326]

33. i get tired of this phrase but....

What's right is not always popular, what's popular is not always right.

If you don't vote for what you believe and rather what swing voters believe, why not just become a swing voter?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. which swing voters would be alienated???

Please - give me an example of a swing voter that would be alienated by this speech?

[G_j]

79. my brother is a conservative who voted for Bush

he agreed with a lot of what Nader said. Telling the truth about the old boy network rings true with lots of Americans right and left.
People in general are sick of the whole game. It's not a fringe opinion. That does make Nader dangerous, but to who?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

21. Nader

can suck my balls for five minutes, too. Preferably before he goes licking chimp's ass.

[Scott Lee]

22. Unlike the pink tutus, who rush in to support Bush-hole

And Nader gets bad-mouthed. What a weird, weird world.

[diamondsoul]

85. And the anti-Kucinich supports Nader.

How very ironic.:eyes:

[redqueen]

86. I would say it leans more toward the bizzare and inexplicable. nt/

[ArkDem]

25. Bill Mazeroski

.

[Richardo]

37. #9! Yes!

Not sure what it has to do with the subject, but I'll take a Pirates reference any day... :thumbsup:

[RichM]

38. ??? WTF?? I don't understand. Too deep for me.

Bill Mazeroski. 2B, Pittsburgh Pirates. Hit Series-winning HR in 1960 against NY Yankees, Game 7.

But I still don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[ArkDem]

54. I thought we were trying to name the entire roster of the

1960 Pirates.

Bill Virdon

[Richardo]

58. The famous Harvey Haddix...

Threw a perfect game for 12 innings and lost. :(

Was this the greatest game ever pitched in major league history? Many historians believe it was and The Sporting News ranked it one of the fifty greatest moments in baseball history. When it was all in the books, Harvey Haddix had become the first pitcher in major league history to take a perfect game beyond nine innings and he did so for twelve stunning innings.

[HootieMcBoob]

59. Maybe that's the connection!

Harvey Haddix has an * next to his name in the record book because of that no-hitter. Maybe that's some Bush* reference....maybe.

[ArkDem]

60. Elroy Face

20 wins as a relief pitcher.

[HootieMcBoob]

57. I'm all for Maz

I love Maz and I think that he would agree that Nader says a lot of good things but running for President is a really bad bad idea.

Best defensive second baseman ever!

[ArkDem]

61. I think he was driving a Corvair 700 sedan in October 1960.

.

[BlueEyedSon]

28. Maybe he IS working for the Dems.....?

[The_Casual_Observer]

32. Fuck Nader - He caused it all. How about a little Hemlock

in a drinking cup. It would be the best answer all around.

[redqueen]

34. Love it

I agree completely.

:loveya:

[emanymton]

35. Nader's Points Were Valid!! But Will Still Vote For Democrat

I'd take half a loaf instead of no loaf.

[ArkDem]

36. Dick Groat

.

[Richardo]

39. Another Buc...has the dubious distinction....

...of being packaged will Bob Uecker in a trade with the Phillies:

October 27, 1965: Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals with Bob Uecker and Bill White to the Philadelphia Phillies for Pat Corrales, Art Mahaffey, and Alex Johnson.

I'd say the Cards got the best of THAT deal...

[ArkDem]

51. The Great One

Roberto Clemente

[dawn]

41. Nader is a fraud. He doesn't practice what he preaches.

He is a wealthy man who profits heavily from the very things he denounces.

Vote Nader! Billionaires around the country are counting on you!!

[cryofan]

43. If we DUers had any balls/ovaries, we would all...

...friggin vote for Nader.

I like Nader a heck of a lot better than Kucinich. A lot of voters who have heard of DK, think he is weird, what with all this veganism, auras, yogis, and whatever associated with him by the media.

I tell you what, if Nader continues to get the kind of free media PR that he is getting right now, he WILL fucking make a run at winning the election. Bet on it! Nader has BIG name recognition all over the country, and with Bush and Kerry/Edwards probably very close to even, and both the Dem and GOP taking about 30-35% each, Nader could sneak in there. And you had BELIEVE that if he does make a run at it, I will be working my ass off for him. And I would hope that such politically knowledgeable people as we have here would join me.

[Old and In the Way]

44. I'm going to miss your ineffectual, anti-Democratic rants when

we shut the door on you after the primaries. If you want to elect Bush, why not work it out with your brethren at FreeRepublic?

[PVnRT]

46. PURGE! PURGE! PURGE!

:eyes:

[redqueen]

48. Won't it be fun though?

No disagreement, just all smiling happy 'yes I agree' posts 24/7. What stimulating conversation that will be!

;)

[JVS]

49. No. They'll just turn on those who are perceived as being too sypathetic

towards the first outcasts. A purge never dies due to lack of victims.

[redqueen]

47. He's got a long row to hoe

I doubt he'll even make it on the ballot in most states, but I'm still glad he's running.

I love seeing confused centrists in such paroxysms of misguided hatred. :D

[ozone_man]

55. Suddenly, you sound so good to me..

I'm sure whoever your candidate was (DK?), was a source of conflict with mine (Dean). I am still faithful to Dean as a write-in for the GE, but I hear the sirens calling. I welcome the discussion that Nader brings. Let's see how this plays out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. $100.00 Says Nader Doesn't Get >2% Of The Vote

and I'll let a third party hold the money....

[diamondsoul]

87. "I like Nader a heck of a lot better than Kucinich. "

Then either you aren't a Democrat at all and never were, or you're nowhere near as left as I am.. Either way is fine but knock off the attacks on Kucinich already. You bore most of us with the same old fluff.

[Cuban_Liberal]

50. Nader? Hmmm... OK.

So, how are the wife and kids?

[mzmolly]

56. 1. Plenty of Dems have stated the obvious as noted above...

2. Does Nader have an actual *plan* to address these issues ... Or, is he simply in need of another ego stroke?

[JasonDeter]

71. I saw Nader on C-Span.

Your right Mzmolly, curious that Nader thinks he has a run saying the same thing Kerry and the other Democrats are saying. I think your right, his ego won't allow him to sit this one out.

[texastoast]

62. Ralph Doesn't Lie Much

I've been keeping up with him for 40 years. He tells the truth where other politicians fear to tread.

Too bad he's such a dweeb. But he's a dweeb with more huevos than everyone inside the beltway put together.

[GreenPartyVoter]

65. Glad he said all that about $hrub

Makes me wish more Dems were backing Dennis, since he is also a sensible guy and not afraid of telling the truth about Bu$hco.

[zoeyfong]

66. Yes, he made many good points, and for that he will be punished.

The more i see the entire dem establishment coming down on him, the more apparent it is that they are part of the problem. They are obviously outraged that nader would offer potential democratic voters a better product than what they're offering. Given the utterly pathetic performance of dems over the last three years, it is clear that they think they are entitled to votes without having to do anything to earn them.

[mdmc]

68. God bless everyone

Peace
and low
stress

[SonofMass]

69. Smokey Burgess

and

Dick Stuart (Dr. Strangeglove)

[lyonn]

70. As I recall

Dean spoke out on many of those issues and you see where it got him. He was described as too radical, angry, not mainstream, on and on. America isn't really ready for the truth, and many of us thought we were. Of course we want to beat Bush at all cost but for some reason Dean scared people, at least the people that report what the nominees are like. I watched Dean speak to people since early last year and he seemed to relate well to those in the crowd, one on one. Our front runners now are speaking the same old blather. It is so sad. Surely they have other things to talk about, but, we know if they say too much they get questions from the press. Dean answered the presses questions and got whacked. So I guess America is not ready for someone that speaks out on issues.

[ursacorwin]

73. i'm surprise more of you haven't commented upon this

lyonn hit the nail on the head.

i don't have tv, so i'll take your (original poster) word for it when you say that russert HAD NO RESPONSE for nader's far-left sounding proclimations.

yet what happened to dean when he was on? blistered for not knowing an exact number that no one would know off the top of their heads.

when dean spoke of health care? media deregulation? bridging the gap between white and black poor in the south?

he was excoritated. not just by russert and his ilk either, the entire SCLM gave him "the business" as my dad calls it.

nader's soft treatment by russert just futher proves that he's A REPUBLICAN PLANT and those of you who can't see it when it stares you in the face make me sad.

i posted on this over at GDP2004, in the thread titled "anyone who mentions dean and nader at the same time is a plant"

anyone know why DK can't get a schedule like ralph on the talking head shows? even though they're saying roughly the same things and have about the same chance of winning?

or why the freepers are going orgasmic about ralph's entrance? i could go on, but i'd hope people can see what's going on here.

[redqueen]

74. Of course we see it

What we wonder is why Democrats don't do anything about it.

Except vote with bush, that is. But is that supposed to help, really?

[ozone_man]

82. Yes, Dean said the truth and was crucified for it.

Nader said that he would stay out of the race if Dean was in it, because he realized that Dean had a very similar message. You're quite right in that America is not ready for a truth speaker and it will likely take more pain and suffering before that happens. You see the truth in Nader, so no need to explain this.

Where does the suffering come in? Well, my own take is that the economy is about to really take a dive soon, much worse than anything we've ever seen in our lives. When this happens in the next five to ten years, the conditions will be set when the eagle will scream once again. JMHO.

[julialnyc]

75. Even if he is right, he is wrong to enter this year!!

Whether you like him or not (I personally do0, it is NOT THE TIME to do this!!). I almost get more angry the more I agree with him, because he does make very valis points. This is simply not the year to stick his neck in!!!
I want Clark to be President, but I wouldn't dare suggest he enter as an independent (I'm sure many Dean supporters feel the same)......I would probabkly vote for him because I really really wanted him to be the President, and this would not be good for getting Bush out of office.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Heck....

I believe and could say the same things and have the same chance as Nader which is zero...

[lams712]

80. RALPH IS TELLING THE TRUTH!!!!!

The record of the Democratic Party since the 1992 has been pathetic to say the least. People like Paul Wellstone and Dennis Kucinich have been THE EXCEPTION rather than the RULE in the Democratic Party.

The Democrats (namely the DLC/centrists) better stop being so arrogant and actually start listening to the rank and file Democrats who are frustated over a clear LACK OF LEADERSHIP.

[ArkDem]

84. Bob Friend

Vinegar Bend Mizell

[ArkDem]

95. .

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

88. If truth were votes would Bush be president?

[liberty rising]

89. Kucinich, like Nadar, reminds Dems of what we should be

Nadar embraces the same ideology as Kucinich, and
Dems, Greens, and all the progressives are ignoring them both...

Kucinich is the real deal, the one who could raise up the democratic party and the nation to what we could and should be

Ralph Nadar knows it, so why didn't he endorse Kucinich?

[GreenPartyVoter]

91. Hi, Liberty, and welcome. Ralph did endorse Dennis

back when there seemed a chance when the top slot was still open. He sort of endorsed Howard too.

But now that we are down to the run-to-the-muddle-of-the-road folks, Ralph has jumped in.

I don't mind as long as a) he gets the dems to run leftward and b) he either figures out how to siphon $hrub votes or bails and endorses the Dem at the last minute (before your name gets on tha ballot though, Ralph.)

I love the guy, I really do. But I can't take another 4 years of $hrub.

And I can't wait for some meaningful election reform around here!

[diamondsoul]

96. He did, early on,

and still tells Dems to vote Kucinich.

He jumped in now because it was now or never to ensure a progressive voice in the GE.

[AgadorSparticus]

90. It's easy to say whatever you want when you know you don't have to deliver

First off, he will never win elections with far left ideas. So, it's easy to say and promise whatever you want when you KNOW you won't be held accountable. And whether we like it or not, far left and far right ideas alienate. Moderates win national elections.

Secondly, It's easy to say whatever the hell you want when it's just your ass. If your words affect an entire party, you'd be more careful of your words.

God Bless Kucinich and Sharpton for saying things that everyone thinks and grounding the party while allowing Kerry and Edwards to assume campaigns that reach out to a broader, more moderate constituancy.

It's as important to have ideals and hope as it is to be realistic. We don't always get what we want. But that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We remain patient, win the WH, and start internal cleanup. But if you keep putting the cart before the horse, we'll always have an ASS for president.

[zulchzulu]

92. If you shut your eyes, it sounded like St. Ralph was on Art Bell's show

Every time he said "corporate", I wanted a bell to go off.

He sounded like a desperate, nervous, conspiracy-theory-fueled schmuck.

[shivaji]

94. Great post !!