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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 12:58 PM
Original message
Kerry Told There Were No Weapons Before He Voted For War
So says Scott Ritter...
http://www.tikkun.org/index.cfm/action/current/article/218.html


Two years later, in the buildup toward war that took place in the summer of 2002, the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee, on which Kerry sits, convened a hearing on Iraq. At that hearing
a parade of witnesses appeared, testifying to the existence of WMD in Iraq. Featured
prominently was Khidir Hamza, the self-proclaimed "bombmaker to Saddam," who gave stirring
first-hand testimony to the existence of not only nuclear weapons capability, but also chemical
and biological weapons as well. Every word of Hamza's testimony has since been proved
false. Despite receiving thousands of phone calls, letters and e-mails demanding that
dissenting expert opinion, including my own, be aired at the hearing, Sen. Kerry apparently did
nothing, allowing a sham hearing to conclude with the finding that there was "no doubt"
Saddam Hussein had WMD.

Sen. Kerry followed up this performance in October 2002 by voting for the war in Iraq. Today
he justifies that vote by noting that he only approved the "threat of war," and that the blame for
Iraq rests with President George W. Bush, who failed to assemble adequate international
support for the war. But this explanation rings hollow in the face of David Kay's findings that
there are no WMD in Iraq. With the stated casus belli shown to be false, John Kerry needs to
better explain his role not only in propelling our nation into a war that is rapidly devolving into a
quagmire, but more importantly, his perpetuation of the falsehoods that got us there to begin
with.
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Mile Hi Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. But, But......
Kerry was lied to. He said so. He had access to all the info and he still believed Bush. Isn't it Bush's fault????

Kerry didn't have the balls to vote no when it counted. Now the public is buying his story that he was lied to.

Hey for those that believe Kerry I have a bridge in Brooklyn I need to sell.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why does it all have to revolve around Bush?
You wanna hear some hard talk on Saddam? Look up some of Clinton's old speeches about him. The concern precedes Bush. Kerry may have had other reasons for voting yes than believing Bush.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Making that excuse further indicts Kerry
By saying first, that he has some reason for voting yes that he hasn't been honest enough to reveal to us yet, and second becuase, if what you suggest is true, it means Kerry kept his mouth shut while Bush, Cheney, Powell and Rumsfeld were lying to us.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. It's not an excuse.
I think he's made it clear why he voted yes. And Kerry did not keep his mouth shut just to give the Bush Administration a pass.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Okie Doke
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:42 PM by HFishbine
If Kerry made it clear why he voted for the IWR, then your previous speculation that he may have had other reasons is without merit.

If Kerry didn't keep his mouth shut to give Bush a pass, why didn't he let us know we were being lied to?
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. Doo.
I never said Kerry had other reasons. I said he had reasons besides Bush and his push for war, which he does, and they were very similar to that of Bill Clinton. There were some very strong reasons to suspect Saddam's weapons capabilities.

Why didn't he let us know we were being lied to? If I remember correctly at the time, no one but Bush really seemed to know anything definite about Saddam.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Your post is so full of self-contradictions
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:28 PM by HFishbine
that I'll let it stand unchallenged as a testement to the futility fo defending Kerry's vote as anything other than a vote for war.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Excuse me.......
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:46 PM by liberalnurse
He voted for it!!!! No way around it.....Let the record reflect the evidence that kerry is *bush-lite.

Even with in your face fact that the pre-empted war would be nothing less than an attack on another independent nation....No 911- connection....It was totally, 100% support of *bush and company!
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. No, excuse me.
Yes, he voted for it. Save the drama for someone else.

I see Saddam's antics and Bush's antics as two separate things, and I don't know if you do or not.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
119. or does it mean that I and most people
I know are much smarter than Kerry (or Edwards)?
We got it, we were able to evaluate what Scott Ridder and others said.

On top of that we spent tremendous amounts of time and energy trying to get through to both Kerry and Edwards. Repeat, we tried, we pleaded, we begged. And so they believed the known criminals: Cheney, Rumsfeld etc. over all other voices of reason? If they trusted the word of these pathological liars they lack sound judgment.

I just have to say, either these guys just are very dumb or they are just plain dishonest. I believe it must be the later.


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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Why are you keep recycling phony attacks on Kerry? A real question.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:07 PM by Raya
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Real answer - it aint a phony attack
Ritter not only had several copies of his detailed report to show Senator Botox that there were no WMD stockpiles in Iraq, he personally sent him a copy just to make double sure he got it. Botox never responded. It is likely that Botox just ignored it or even threw them out before opening them.

Senator Botox is a Bush enabler who holds a big part of the responsibility for many thousands of innocent dead in Iraq, and hundreds of our own American dead. Remember that when you go to vote for him.


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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And your Ad Hominen Attack proves the validity of the prior baseless one?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. So you can't refute my post? Why am I not shocked.
Facts are facts, whether you like the verbage or not.

Botox was handed information by an unquestionable expert on the ground, he ignored it and enabled Bushhole to perpetuate a war crime and crime against humanity. At the very least, Botox is guilty of negligent mass homicide. Not what I'd call "presidential" material.

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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. I just adore you insightful honesty.
Its folks like you that enlighten the mis-guided democrat into this dimension of reality..... :yourock:
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Good to see you this AM, Nurse!
As always you brighten my day.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
123. Ah, the sweet song of the Kerrybot...
(fingers in ears)

La, la, la, la, la, la, la.
I'm not listening, I'm not listening...

(This species is often found along the banks of De Nile.)



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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Ritter never testified before Congress
Ritter had no access to the information that was presented to the committee. We still have no idea of the nature or amount of the 'evidence' presented, but we saw Powell with detailed photographs and charts before the skeptical U.N., which accepted his presentation as they passed Res.1441.

You remember that our nation had endured the largest attack since Pearl Harbor. That was the atmosphere during the vote.

Principled opposition to Bush's war is to be respected and encouraged, but I reject the argument that those same principles were betrayed in just voting for the IWR.

Some Democrats saw the resolution as a way to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. My candidate was desperate to stifle Bush's argument for immediate invasion and sought to mandate a return to the international table by limiting Bush's authority in the resolution.

Whether or not the resolution had passed, Bush was intent on invading and occupying Iraq. He had gone around for days proclaiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted. If the resolution had failed, the president I think, would have committed forces anyway as decades of presidents had also put troops in the field for 60 days without congressional approval. In that event, I believe, the Congress would be loath to retreat and remove forces. Then, by law a resolution would have been drawn up, likely resembling the one we have now; urging Bush back to the U.N. and calling for internationalization of the conflict.

That is how determined presidents get us into war. Check and checkmate. It's democracy-lite. It sucks, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to restrain a president from committing forces because of the loopholed prerogative inherent in the War Powers Act, which is referenced in the IWR. The only way to direct him is through some sort of resolution. Remember, we were outraged by his plans but the majority of Americans didn't make much of a fuss. We had lost the PR battle before the vote.

It is possible that a unified front of opposition to the resolution could have turned the public against the plan to invade. But I don't think that was at all possible with the republican majority in the Senate, and in view of Bush's plan to invade with or without congressional approval.

Your flogging around of the deaths is disgusting. You don't hold a lock on morality with your view and neither do I, nor did Kerry. You make no credible connection between the IWR vote and Bush's unilateral, preemptive end run around Congress. Therefore, your attempt to place blame on those in Congress who sought to restrain Bush through the resolution falls well short of any acquiescence on their part in his committing of our forces to war.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Was he asked to?
Certainly not by the BushCo, for obvious reasons.

But lets take some of your points on facce value for a moment. The confusion of intelligence, the shock and awe of 9/11/01, the political risks of taking on Bush. Are you aware of "First Principles"? I'll bet you are. Basically they are the philosophical keystones of our system; the preeminent one saying that all power flows to government from The People. Now, Senators and Representatives are supposed to be advocates of the people, not the government. They are to represent their interests and not the state's. That being the case, wouldn't a given Senator or Representative be abrogating their office if they didn't search out all available information in accordance to a critical issue, like say, war? It certainly sounds logical.

But Botox didn't do that. He took the safe way out, more concerned with how he might look than what the facts are about Bushhole's run up to war. In short, he acted like the consumate Insider who's priority is themselves, not the people they represent. botox by rights should have read Ritter's report. He can't say it wasn't made available to him. By refusing or negligently dissing crucial information to a critical issue, he failed to do his job. And many, many, people died as a result.

Could Botox single handedly have stopped this war? Not likely, but a Senator of his standing could certainly have raised enough of a stink about it to at least stall it so the opposition could have gathered steam. Well, that didn't happen did it. Botox went along to get along, enabled Bushhole for his own hide, and the rest is history.

I'd be nibbling on a snocone in hell before I cast a vote for traitor against our people and system like that.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. He wasn't asked to, despite efforts to get him an invitation
Some very smart people tried to get Ritter before the Foreign Relations Committee.

http://www.lexingtonjpc.org/Scott_Ritter_Boston_723.html
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Bushhole couldn't allow that. Facts would have nailed him.
Don't you just love his latest tack? The lying POS now acting like he's going to get to the bottom of this flawed intelligence. It scares the hell out of me to think how many rethug voters are going to fall for this ruse.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. What if DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS had done this
and not instead sat on their hands, agreeing with bush, and leaving the burden to fall on the desperate citizenry?

:grr:
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
84. And people
think it's slefish or crazy when we insist that the dems acted as Bush enablers.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Short-term memory disease
They did. It's a fact, but one that many would apparently like to forget rather quickly.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
136. Thousands of Iraqis would be alive, with their families today
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
75. Short memories will be the death of us
There was not a repub majority in the Senate when people were trying to get Ritter's testimony before Congress and at the time of the IWR vote. WE DEMS STILL CONTROLLED THE SENATE UNTIL JANUARY 2003- and the IWR vote was in October of 2002.

We had the ability to actually take control of this debate, but were too spineless to do so. Why do you think so many people were so irritated with the Dems when they voted and acted the way they did. Our Senators were acting like the minority party even though we controlled things!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Minor correction...
even though they could have controlled things.

They chose not to.

Just like they did under Clinton after his first election. When they didn't do squat about the fairness doctrine, as Clinton said he would.

Why do they keep doing that?

People should think really hard about that.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Maybe I should have said "outnumbered"
rather than controlled? :-)

There were more people with Ds behind their names than people with Rs? The Ds were in Chair positions while the Rs were Ranking Minority Members? I don't know- how do we describe that phenomenon? Surely there is a fairly descriptive term for what the Senate was like in 2002- one that could be used in front of children, anyway? :shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Outnumbered is good
I could probably come up with a few choice descriptors, but none suitable for the PG crowd. :)
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
105. How much do you charge to have that axe of yours sharpened?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. It isn't a phony attack.
I was one of the thousands of people that wrote to Kerry and other congressional Dems asking that they listen to dissenting views on WMDs in Iraq. We were ignored.

Kerry bears some responsibility for the war, and his attempted justifications thus far have been unsatisfactory.

In some ways, I am more frustrated with the Dems for this vote, because at least the GOP listened to their constituency. The Democratic party shut us out.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Okay....go into the kitchen and
splash ice water on your face.....You may snap out of it.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Thats the best post I've seen here all day.
Now we are talking about seeing thru the delusional rhetoric spewed by his "handlers" and all that it implies.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. The war was still a good idea, but...
Kerry is trying to position himself in such a way that he comes across either as gullable or a born-again hawk -- except for this war. He should just say he supported the war and keep it at that.

He supported the war in Kosovo and in Iraq. As long as he explains himslef who will the people who don't like military diplomacy going to vote for anyway? They will just have to vote for Kerry and that's just the way it is, isn't it?
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
122. Figures...
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 04:31 AM by JDWalley
Q: How can you tell John Kerry is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

I notice this latest confirmation comes from none other than Scott Ritter...so, how do you like your blue-eyed boy, mister pitt?

ON PRE-EDIT: As "Mister Pitt" is so fond of saying, this is a joke.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. (Impression of the dialogue between Kerry and Ritter - Circular Argument)
Ritter: You voted to go to war.

Kerry: I didn't authorize the president to unilateraly invade and occupy Iraq. I expected the president to honor the restraint mandated in the resolution. I expected the president to exhaust all possible diplomatic means and work in concert with the Security Council to enforce U.N. Res.1441. We were able to get inspectors on the ground (Hans Blix). President Bush forced them out by pushing past Congress, the American people, and the international community in his rush to war.

Ritter: But you voted to go to war. Why did you vote for the war in Iraq?

Kerry: The resolution didn't authorize what the president ultimately did.

Ritter: But you didn't return my letters and my phone calls. I told you that the WMD evidence was phony.

Kerry: With all due respect, you weren't in the briefings. The same evidence that the skeptical international body accepted as valid was presented to us by the Secretary of State and others that Saddam possessed massive amounts of chemical and biological weaponry and was in the process of restarting its nuclear program.

Ritter: But I wrote an article for Arms Control Today. I sent one to you. Why didn't you read my article? I wrote that there was no imminent threat.

Kerry: I took all of what I had available and I concluded that there was enough material presented to warrant working with the U.N. Security Council to further pressure Saddam to come clean and allow inspectors back in. Without inspectors on the ground we're just speculating. Inspectors (Hans Blix) could verify. I voted to get the U.N. inspectors allowed back in backed up by the threat of U.S. force.

Ritter: But why did you vote for the war in Iraq?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. The threat of war line is complete bullshit.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:14 PM by Bleachers7
Check out what Wellstone said about it.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:THyAL2vZ2sEJ:www.wellstone.org/news/news_detail.aspx%3FitemID%3D1865%26catID%3D298+Statement+by+Sen.+Wellstone+Regarding+Military+Action+Against+Iraq+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Statement by Sen. Wellstone Regarding Military Action Against Iraq

Washington, D.C. October 3, 2002

Mr. President, as we turn later today to address our policy on Iraq, I want to take a few minutes to outline my views.

The situation remains fluid, and Administration officials are engaged in negotiations at the United Nations over what approach we ought to take, with our allies, to disarm the brutal and dictatorial Iraqi regime.

Our debate here is critical because the administration seeks our authorization now for military action including possibly unprecedented, pre-emptive, go-it-alone military action in Iraq, even as it seeks to garner support from our allies on a tough new UN disarmament resolution.

Let me be clear: Saddam Hussein is a brutal, ruthless dictator who has repressed his own people, attacked his neighbors, and remains an international outlaw. The world would be a much better place if he were gone and the regime in Iraq were changed. That's why the U.S. should unite the world against Saddam, and not allow him to unite forces against us.

A go-it-alone approach, allowing for a ground invasion of Iraq without the support of other countries, could give Saddam exactly that chance.

A pre-emptive go-it-alone strategy towards Iraq is wrong. I oppose it. I support ridding Iraq of weapons of mass destruction through unfettered U.N. inspections, which should begin as soon as possible. Only a broad coalition of nations, united to disarm Saddam, while preserving our war on terror, is likely to succeed. Our primary focus now must be on Iraq's verifiable disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. This will help maintain international support, and could even eventually result in Saddam's loss of power. Of course, I would welcome this, as would most of our allies.

The president has helped to direct intense new multilateral pressure on Saddam Hussein to allow U.N. and International Atomic Energy Agency weapons inspectors back in to Iraq to conduct their assessment of Iraq's chemical, biological and nuclear programs. Saddam clearly has felt that heat, and it suggests what might be accomplished through collective action. I am not naive about this process, and much work lies ahead. But we cannot dismiss out-of-hand Saddam's late and reluctant commitment to comply with U.N. disarmament arrangements, or the agreement struck Tuesday to begin to implement it. We should use the gathering international resolve to collectively confront his regime by building on these efforts through a new U.N. disarmament resolution.

This debate must include all Americans, because our decisions finally must have the informed consent of the American people, who will be asked to bear the costs, in blood and treasure, of our decisions. When the lives of the sons and daughters of average Americans could be risked and lost, their voices must be heard by Congress before we make decisions about military action. Right now, despite a desire to support our president, I believe many Americans still have profound questions about the wisdom of relying too heavily on a pre-emptive, go-it-alone military approach.

Acting now on our own might be a sign of our power. Acting sensibly and in a measured way in concert with our allies, with bipartisan Congressional support, would be a sign of our strength. It would also be a sign of the wisdom of our founders, who lodged in the President the power to command U.S. armed forces, and in Congress the power to make war, ensuring a balance of powers between co-equal branches of government. Our Constitution lodges the power to weigh the causes for war and the ability to declare war in Congress precisely to ensure that the American people and those who represent them will be consulted before military action is taken. The Senate has a grave duty to insist on a full debate that examines for all Americans the full range of options before us, and weighs those options, together with their risks and costs. Such a debate should be energized by the real spirit of September 11: a debate which places a priority not on unanimity, but on the unity of a people determined to forcefully confront and defeat terrorism and to defend our values. I have supported internationally sanctioned coalition military action in Bosnia, in Kosovo and Serbia, and in Afghanistan. Even so, in recent weeks, I and others including major Republican policymakers like former Bush National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft, former Bush Secretary of State James Baker, my colleague on the Foreign Relations Committee Senator Hagel, Bush Mideast Envoy General Anthony Zinni and other leading US military leaders have raised serious questions about the approach the Administration is taking on Iraq.

There have been questions raised about the nature and urgency of Iraq's threat, our response to that threat, and against whom, exactly that threat is directed. What is the best course of action that the U.S. could take to address the threat? What are the economic, political, and national security consequences of possible U.S. or U.S.-British invasion of Iraq?

There have been questions raised about the consequences of our actions abroad, including its effects on the continuing war on terrorism, our ongoing efforts to stabilize and rebuild Afghanistan, and efforts to calm the intensifying Middle East crisis, especially the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And there have been questions raised about the consequences of our actions here at home. Of first and greatest concern, obviously, are the questions raised about the possible loss of life that could result from our actions. The United States could send tens of thousands of U.S. troops to fight in Iraq, and in so doing we could risk countless lives, of U.S. soldiers and innocent Iraqis.

There are other questions, about the impact of an attack in relation to our economy. The United States could face soaring oil prices and could spend billions both on a war and on a years-long effort to stabilize Iraq after an invasion.

The resolution we will be debating today would explicitly authorize a go-it-alone approach. I believe an international approach is essential. In my view, our policy should have four key elements. First and foremost, the United States must work with our allies to deal with Iraq. We should not go it alone or virtually alone with a pre-emptive ground invasion. Most critically, acting alone could jeopardize our top national security priority, the continuing war on terror. The intense cooperation of other nations in matters related to intelligence-sharing, security, political and economic cooperation, law enforcement and financial surveillance, and other areas has been crucial to this fight, and enables us to wage it effectively with our allies. Over the past year, this cooperation has been our most successful weapon against terror networks. That -- not attacking Iraq should be the main focus of our efforts in the war on terror.

We have succeeded in destroying some Al Qaida forces, but many of its operatives have scattered, their will to kill Americans still strong. The United States has relied heavily on alliances with nearly 100 countries in a coalition against terror for critical intelligence to protect Americans from possible future attacks. Acting with the support of allies, including hopefully Arab and Muslim allies, would limit possible damage to that coalition and our anti-terrorism efforts. But as General Wes Clark, former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe has recently noted, a premature go-it-alone invasion of Iraq "would super-charge recruiting for Al Qaida."

Second, our efforts should have the goal of disarming Saddam Hussein of all of his weapons of mass destruction. Iraq agreed to destroy its weapons of mass destruction at the end of the Persian Gulf War and to verification by the U.N. and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that this had been done. According to the U.N. and IAEA, and undisputed by the administration, inspections during the 1990's neutralized a substantial portion of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and getting inspectors back in to finish the job is critical. The prompt resumption of inspections and disarmament, under an expedited timetable and with unfettered access in Iraq, is imperative.

Third, weapons inspections should be enforceable. If efforts by U.N. weapons inspectors are tried and fail, a range of potential U.N.-sanctioned means, including proportionate military force, should be considered. I have no doubt that Congress would act swiftly to authorize force in such circumstances. This does not mean giving the U.N. a veto over U.S. actions. No one wants to do that. It simply means, as Chairman Levin has observed, that Saddam is a world problem and should be addressed in the world arena.

Finally, our approach toward Iraq must be consistent with international law and the framework of collective security developed over the last 50 years or more. It should be sanctioned by the Security Council under the U.N. Charter, to which we are a party and by which we are legally bound.

Only a broad coalition of nations, united to disarm Saddam, while preserving our war on terror, can succeed. Our response will be far more effective if Saddam sees the whole world arrayed against him. We should act forcefully, resolutely, sensibly with our allies, and not alone, to disarm Saddam. Authorizing the pre-emptive, go-it-alone use of force now, right in the midst of continuing efforts to enlist the world community to back a tough new disarmament resolution on Iraq, could be a costly mistake for our country.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Language mandating against 'going it alone' which Bush disregarded
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--

(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Also:

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Section 1? (nt)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Section I
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:41 PM by bigtree
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.

Like the "Leave No Child Behind" bill whose provisions were perverted, disregarded and underfunded by Bush. These titles are meaningless. What is relevant is the manner in which these legislations are enacted or addressed. Bush and the republican majority has proved that they can offer fancy slogans and titles to legislation, but their credibility has been shattered by their obstruction and obstinacies. President Kerry will bring credibility to the executive end of the equation.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. And Section 3?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Section 3
This is the part though that I believe involves the president and his word.

Defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq

According to who? According to what evidence presented. Doesn't the administration have an obligation to present the threat in a accurate and truthful manner? Did they? Weren't they obligated to under this resolution?

Why aren't the nay voters calling for a new resolution like Dennis in his call to repeal the authorization. Where is that push in Congress now from all of the dissenters? I'll tell you where. They had a chance to modify the war in two seperate funding bills. I know that my candidate voted against that $87 billion. That's as close to post-war opposition as any of the others in the Senate have managed. This is in the wake of no WMD's; hind views; and evidence mounting of the president inflating the threat.

Enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq?

U.N. Res.1441 was negotiated with bogus evidence presented by Powell. But the public still doesn't know the nature or the amount of evidence presented. Some were convinced some weren't. You can see in John Kerry's floor statement that he didn't abide risking the possibility that Iraq might restart a nuclear program, remote-controlled bombers, whatever. That was on the basis of bogus info.

But remember, there were no inspectors inside Iraq to verify anything. One of John Kerry's intentions in the resolution was to pressure Iraq with the U.N. resolution backed up by the threat of force. It worked until Bush pushed ahead and drove them out again. Those who would hold the president accountable are indebted to Hans Blix for his prescense there and his candor.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. See post #37
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:03 PM by HFishbine
The fact that you feel compelled to leave this part out is very telling.

(a) AUTHORIZATION. The president is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. The authority to commit forces is not inherent in the IWR.
That authority is contained in the War Powers Act which decades of presidents have used to commit forces for 60 days without congressional approval. Congress would be loath to remove forces after they are committed.

The only imput that Congress had to the president's rush to war was a 'no' vote, which would not restrain the president, and to attempt to place restrictions on the president's behavior through a resolution. Sen. Kerry and other Democrats chose the latter. They didn't feel that the president would be restrained with a 'no' vote.

Bush's position before, during and after invasion was that 1441 gave him authority to do any thing he wanted to in that region. He wanted cover, but the IWR doesn't give him cover for his unilateral, preemptive invasion. Nowhere in the bill does it mandate what he did.


SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

Isn't this stating that the authority is inherent in the old War Powers Resolution which presidents have gone around for decades. The authority is not inherent in the new resolution, the president already has that authority through the loopholes of the War Powers Act to commit forces. That is what this specific statutory authorization is stating, I believe. Hence:

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.



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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
116. You forgot to place those sentences in the context of the Act:
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 11:13 PM by Nicholas_J


SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to —

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that —

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.



Plus you forget section 4, which goes back and refers to the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998:

SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS.

(a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text/1010res.htm

You forget to include the sections about the United Nations being found to be not likely to enforce its own resolutions...which the president claims to have proven but which congressional democrats state was not prove. There lies the evidence that neither Kerry nor this act authorized the presidents actions in any way.

Thus before, but no later tan 48 hours after engagin troops, the president was to provide evidence determining that the U.N. was not going to enforce its own resolutions, and that diplomatic methods would not be adequate to defned the security of the United States. Again which virtually no democrat accepted as having been done by the president.

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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Why am I reading that completely different to you?
What I see is a declaration of "support" for upholding UN resolutions, and AUTHORISATION to do anything Bush believes is
necessary to see that occur REGARDLESS of whether the UN is involved.

In fact, point out where in the resolution it says that Bush is ONLY authorised to go to war as part of a multinational force!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. It is guidance for the diplomatic requirement
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Did he exceed this mandate? Or do you assert that he had exhausted all diplomatic means? Weapons inspector Hans Blix wanted more time. The Security Council was against Bush's plan for immediate invasion. If Bush had followed the mandates in the legislation, followed the law, the U.N. would have likely resolved the issue of WMD's short of war. Nothing in the resolution authorized regime change. The president clearly went outside of the law in his unilateral, preemptive invasion.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Oh, for heaven sakes, enough with the selective quoting
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:58 PM by HFishbine
Intllignet people can see the resolution was an authorization for the war. Cutting selective paragraphs is a weak attempt to deceive. Here's the whole bloody thing:

---------
Joint Resolution to Authorize the use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq.

Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in "material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations" and urged the president "to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations" (Public Law 105-235);

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens;

Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001 underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687, repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688, and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949;

Whereas Congress in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) has authorized the president "to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolutions 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677";

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1)," that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and "constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region," and that Congress, "supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688";


Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to "work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge" posed by Iraq and to "work for the necessary resolutions," while also making clear that "the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable";

Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;

Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the president to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the president and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the president has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40);

and Whereas it is in the national security of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region;

Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE. This joint resolution may be cited as the "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq".

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the president to (a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and (b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions.

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION. The president is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b)PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION. In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the president shall, prior to such exercise or as soon there after as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the president pro tempore of the Senate his determination that (1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and (2) acting pursuant to this resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorists attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

(c) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS. (1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. (2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS
(a) The president shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 2 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of Public Law 105-338 (the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998).
(b) To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of Public Law 93-148 (the War Powers Resolution), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
(c) To the extent that the information required by section 3 of Public Law 102-1 is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of Public Law 102-1.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. So you argue that the president should be able to disregard
the law and cherry-pick which parts of the legislation agree with him and disregard the parts that mandate against his course. Why even pass a resolution if the president is allowed to pick and choose? Did he even read the resolution. Nothing in the resolution advocates or mandates the course that Bush took to war. It mandates against unilateral, preemptive invasion. The inspectors were on the ground, well on the way toward ending the standoff. Bush pushed past, did not exhaust diplomatic means, did not seek the consensus of the Security Council, and pushed forward to war.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. "the parts that mandate against his course."
"It mandates against unilateral, preemptive invasion."

I don't see those parts. To what are you referring?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
67. What was the continuing threat that was to be defended against?
How had diplomatic or other peaceful means been exhausted?

"is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq"

That was well on the way. What authorization does the resolution give the president to invade beyond the disarnament mandated in 1441? That disarnament was in the hands of Hans Blix, who was allowed back into Iraq because of the threat of force implied in the resolution. The resolution is the will of Congress. Congress, in its language in support of the bill and in the cited passages sought to modify Bush's manufactured mandate to immediately invade.

Legislation is regularly interpreted by the spoken and written intentions of the legislators involved. There was no mandate from Congress for unilateral, preemptive invasion and it was well stated before the vote.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. It doesn't matter
because the reolution allowed Bush to proceed with miliatry action when he deemed it necessary in "his determination." These conditions you'd like to imagine existed simply are not requirements in the resolution.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Bush had the authority to commit forces without the resolution
Indeed, he had gone around for days claiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted in the region. The resolution was an attempt to modify his mandate. It doesn't say, 'invade no matter what'. It says that Bush can use military force if he determines that diplomatic or peaceful means alone will not lead to the enforcement of 1441. How did Bush make this determination?

So he invaded. He had the power to all along. No one believes that Congress would vote to retreat and withdraw forces. The initial campaigm lasted more than 60 days. By then congressional input would be moot.

Would Bush have come back to Congress if the resolution failed? Who knows. I don't think he would have. But nothing Congress was about to do, with the Majority overwhelmingly in favor of the resolution, was going to stop Bush. The resolution almost worked. Blix was allowed back in. He could have resolved this and forced Bush to work with the U.N. Bush saw that and balked.

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. What's funny
is that none of "our" candidates are offering your rationale. Must be a reason for that.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #86
98. They have their own, which you, I presume, accept without question.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 04:16 PM by bigtree
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. The resolution in NO WAY mandates what you claim.
If it did, Bush couldn't legally have gone into Iraq.

Don't try to equate the lack of specific mandating of action with the mandating of no action. Bush may have subverted the intent of the resolution, but he worked within the deliberately vague language of it. It does not "mandate against" unilateral or preemptive invasion. Even according to the badly cropped snippets of the resolution you provide, it merely "supports" Bush's attempts to work within the confines of the UN and "encourages" him to continue. If Kerry thinks that's a mandate, there's no way I want him in office.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. It wasn't Kerry's Congress
The resolution clearly says that military action is authorized only if reliance on diplomatic or other peaceful means would not achieve the disarnament specified in 1441. That process of inspection and disarnament was proceeding under Hans Blix when Bush balked and did his end run around everyone.

For crap, the diplomatic language is the first determination that is outlined in the resolution. How did Bush determine that diplomatic means were not working?


(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq


You may be correct in that this is not the strongest bill- this was a republican controlled body- but you can't make a credible argument that he followed the law in this resolution without believing his claim that diplomatic or peaceful means would not have resolved Saddam's obligations under 1441. The U.N. Security Council certainly didn't think that diplomatic or peaceful means were not working. Blix now says they were. Bush disregarded the law and invaded.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
89. Another error
"this was a republican controlled body"

No. It wasn't.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #70
126. Wrong, as usual...
The resolution clearly says that military action is authorized only if reliance on diplomatic or other peaceful means would not achieve the disarnament specified in 1441.

What it says is that said action is authorized only if the President determines (with or without cause as he sees fit) that reliance on diplomatic or other peaceful means would not achieve the disarnament specified in 1441.

That's what made this resolution a "blank check" -- there was to be no oversight as to what it was made out for.

:grr:


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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. It does not mandate unilateral action
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 03:02 PM by Nicholas_J
And only approves it under certain exact conditions, One is that it becomes totally apparent that underno ircumstance will the U.N. decide to enforce its earlier resolutions regarding Iraq made after the Gulf War. Second is that it is proven that Iraq consitututes an immediate threat to the United States. The othe option, the Senate Amendment to this resolution did not change the mechanisms under which Congress gave its authority to the president. The diffenece amended by Biden Lugar was to prevent regime change and nothing else


The Supreme Court has refused to rule on the War Powers Act, which Congress wrote to try to get the president to consult with them before entering into hostilities becasue constitutionally congress has not authority over the disposition, status, and use of troops, but only over the change of diplomatic status between two nations from peace to war. Both legal and congressional experts are very aware of this difference. Prior and during the current and past conflagrations, the Supreme Court has made it very clear that the Congressional Power to declare war has nothing to do with the actual distruibution and use of military force. The Supreme Court has even gone so far as to state that the Constitution itself prevents them from making such a ruling as they do not have the power to talk away a power ceded to the president in the Constitution. The Constitution cedes the use of force to the president. It appoints the ower to change the diplomatic status between two nations from peace to war to the Congress.


Essentially the presient was free to ignore the Iraq Resolution of October 2002, as the president does not accept the constitutionality of the War Powers Resolution, and the Suprume Court has refused to rule on it, stating they do not have the authority to do so, leaving it for Congress and the President to iron out their differnces regarding this area of concurrent powers.

Kerry and others in Congress agreed that Saddam Hussein had been given 12 years to show good faith after the Gulf War and during that 12 years had refused to co-operate, prevented inspectors from doing their jobs, to the point of confiscating materials back from, the inspectors. There was little or no point in dealing with Saddam diplomatically any longer. The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 already gave the president the right to remove Saddam's Regime. The action to do so was only halted as aresult of Kofi Annan getting Saddam to agree to another resolution, which he started breaking almost immediately anyway, as he had all other resolutions. Kerry was one of the initiators of the Iraq Liberation Act, and owes no apology to anyone regarding his vote. He stated before the vote, during the vote and after the vote that he wanted every diplomatic and peaceful course to be followed exhaustively to get Saddam and his regome to comply, and if they did not, wanted then to follow through with the use of force, and not simply beg off, leaving the problems of Saddams regime to crop up once more, a few years down the road again. Use all means to fix the problem, progressing from peaceful and diplomatic methods, measured progressive use of force, and finally, full scale war only if the previous solutions failed.

In the light of the discoveries of the attrocities of Saddams regime, the concepts held within Biden-Lugar, to disarm Saddam, but to leave him in power, are proven to have been the wrong goals entirely.

It is obvious that a very large portion of the American electorate agrees with Kerry and Edwards, and finds that the policies of the other candidates were wanting to a great degree. They would have either done nothing about a ruler with a humanitarian record one step below that of Hitler and Stalin, or made a futile attempt to disarm him and then left him in power. The lessons of World War I and the supposed disarming of Germany, and the sectret programs and weapons delevopment of Nazi Germany for World War II during a time when they were supposed to be disarmed should be proof enough that no nation can be disarmed unwillingly. And that Saddam did not want to comply.

WMD's and proof of WMD's were not Kerry's only reasons for authorizing the progressive threat of force and eventual use of force. His reasons for going to CLinton in 1998 with suggestions that something had to be done about Iraq were based on the regimes Non-Compliance with international law and U.N. Resolution. WMD's and proof of WMD's were not a major issue with Kerry. Flat out all he wanted to see was progressive international pressure on Iraq to comply, and use of whatever degree of military force it took to gain compliance. The resolution is not a vote for war, but a bote for the use of whatever degree of military force necessary to get Saddam to submit to the terms he agreed to, only if diplomatic measures failed.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
82. Despite your protestations
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 03:57 PM by HFishbine
The "conditions" you cite are all left to the president's "determination." The resolution quite clearly gave the president the authority to launch an attack when he saw fit.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #82
99. He had that without the resolution.
You overstate the power of Congress to restrict the president from deploying and committing forces.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #99
115. Congress has no power to restrict the President at all
By U.S. Law, the president legally owns the military and all of its weapons in the name of the people of the Umited States. Which is why you see in all of those World War III nuclear war flicks the generals calling the president to get the release of the nuclear weapons. They don't wait for Congress to vote on it.Nor does Congress have any authority to decide what consitututes enough of an emergency for the president to deploy troops and employ military force.Which is why we have fifty marines sent to Haiti today. Regardless of the level of intervention, the power is totally in the hands of the president to utilize troops and weapons systems. The most powerful attempt of COngress to alter this was the War Powers Resolution passed in the 70's. This bill requires that the president consult with Congress before deplaying troops and using force. The act dfoes not define the word consult, which is why every piece of legislation in which the Congress has either authorized orvattempted to get a sitting president to consult with them reads almost exactly the same. Go back and read the "Authorization of use of force in Iraq Act of 1990 "and it reads exactly the same as the "Authorization of the use of Military Force Act of 2002". Only the president is allowed this, or in case of emergency, the same chain of command in which the president would be replaced in a crisis and unable to act. This does not appply to nuclear weapons alone but all military forces., to enable the president to act in the interests of the United States under any circumstance the predisident alone deems of vital interest to the U.S. Congress has absolutely no authority in the matter of use of force.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
128. Of course he didn't exceed this mandate!
(a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

In other words he merely has to decide that FURTHER diplomatic measures are unlikely to ensure the safety of the US or that UN resolutions would be enforced.

This does not mean that ALL diplomatic measures MUST be exhausted, it means that if Bush decides that diplomatic measures will NOT result in war then he can go ahead and start it unilaterally. This is why the whole "immediate threat" lies was made. The idea was The US had to strike first and soon, or WMD would probably be given to terrorists to use on the US. That would threaten the US, and thus failure to launch a war in the short term itself would satisfy the criteria.

In other words NOT having a war was reason enough to launch the war, based on this resolution.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
125. The problem with section (b)...
...is contained in its title: PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.

For all the attempts to show that the IWR contained "language mandating against 'going it alone'," there was no such language -- only language recommending against "going it alone." Section (b) only requires that the President "make available...his determination" (which, basically, boils down to sending a FAX reading "I have determined that further diplomatic or other peaceful means will not protect national security." That's it! There was no provision for Congress, upon receiving such a determination, to be able to vote again on whether or not to authorize war. The "yes" vote on the IWR did that, and couldn't be undone, no matter how flimsy the grounds Bush might have claimed. Everything else was just fancy words and wishful thinking.

:grr:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #125
133. Burn all you want
It doesn't change the fact that the president had the power, and intended all along, to invade with or without congressional approval. The resolution, which is the law, required the president to make a determination that diplomatic or peaceful means would not accomplish the terms in 1441. The effect of the resolution was that Bush went back to the U.N. and Hans Blix was allowed to resume inspections backed up by the threat of force.

Blix clearly did not feel that peacable mean had been exhausted and told the Security Council so. At that point Bush balked and went around the U.N.

Resolutions are the only way to modify the president's actions. A 'no' vote would not likely have restrained the president as he had gone around for days claiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted in the region. Some Democrats like Kerry sought to restrain Bush through the resolution. You may think this was not the best course, but it did not enable Bush. He can't point to the IWR because he disregarded it in his rush to war.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is just silly!
Kerry didn't return Scott Ritter's email?!?!? OH MY GOD!!!!!!

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in this opinion piece to merit its headline or the thread title.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. that phoney war should have never happened
but the elitist who run the parties are the same
and Kerry is right in the middle of it
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. agreed the phoney war should never have happened
but blame Bush, not Kerry. . .

Am tired of arguing about IWR, but Kerry did not vote for war as a *FIRST* resort. . .GWB is the one that did this.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I blame the entire democratic establishment
for being behind this and letting it happen
the corporate elite wanted a war and the pink-tutu's said "okay by me boss!"
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. The DLC was already in their camo when Bushhole announced
Lieberman was saluting and Hillary Clinton was lecturing us about "being with them or being with the terrorists".

I'm sure you can see the problem with the current Democratic establishment.


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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
96. I do too,
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 04:12 PM by Carolina
the Democratic establishment by and large LIHOP to get it off the table before the 2002 midterms. Attempts to justify their actions are just so much crap. Haste has made waste. We knew, they should have too.

NOTHING Kerry says or does, no rehashing the resolution or talk,
talk, talking about what he thought he voted for can UNDO that 'aye'
vote.

NO means no. It was not a vote for restraint or the GOP would not have pushed so damn hard for a vote before the elections. Hell, when in recent years has the GOP shown any friggin restraint?!

Bush could have, would have gone ahead ON HIS OWN without Democratic enablers. But nooooooo, our wimpocrats caved. And no amount of spinning now can negate the fact that many of them have blood on their hands for this fiasco, too.
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. You have the GALL to trivialize this?
This isn't "Kerry didn't return Scott Ritter's email." This is "Kerry refused to examine the report of an Iraq Weapons Inspector which contradicted that of the opposition party president."

And now you call a report by that same inspector revealing that he spoke with Kerry about it directly, responded to his request for additional information with a damning report, and was subsequently ignored an "opinion piece?"

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. I am waiting for the day
when we see all the top secret crap that GWB admin put in front of the senate. There were closed door sessions where things were presented that we never ever saw, sessions where apparently Senators who planned to vote against IWR came out and voted for it.

On the other hand, I have no idea why Scott Ritter did not testify to the Senate. Why, however, does the blame for this lie 100000000000000000000000000000% with John Kerry?
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. I'd say Kerry is somewhat less culpable than that
On the other hand, I'd say that Kerry's failure to take into account all available data, including Ritter's report and the high probability that Bush would attempt to subvert the intent of the resolution at least makes him somewhat responsible. And to the extent that he made that decision based on what he perceived to be political expediency, I'd say it is a valid basis on which to question his suitability for leadership.

I guess Kerry's true culpability lies somewhere between the 0% you seem to believe and the 100000000000000000000000000000% you somehow attributed to those who believe he shares at least some responsibility.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. He has pretty much said he made a mistake trusting * admin
and 0% JK culpability doesn't fly w me. It was a dumb thing to do, but I can understand it. It was a shitty position to be in. A lot of good smart people wanted to believe that this pResident and his people would not lie about this kind of stuff.

I don't believe IWR was politically expedient for JK either. . .I think it was tough for him, and I think he went w it because he does believe in non-proliferation.

But I do find it bizarre that so many on DU are quick to assign 100% culpabilty to JK with such vehemence (e.g. post #30) that they seem to be letting GWB off the hook.
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. No one is letting GWB off the hook!
We are in the middle of a primary in which we are trying to decide which candidate is best equipped both to move forward the agenda of the Democratic party and to defeat Bush. Kerry's record of yielding to Bush's agenda over the last few years raises serious doubts about both of these issues, and they are valid concerns.

The only ones who think we should only compare Kerry's record to Bush's are those who believe Kerry has already been declared the nominee. In fact, they are generally the ones who believed Kerry should be the nominee from the beginning. All of the candidates look good next to Bush, but I would hope we could expect something more than just that.

FWIW, I also don't think IWR turned out to be a politically smart move for Kerry. But I fully believe that he thought voting against IWR would be political suicide.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. OK, thanks. . . .n/t
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #66
127. He has said MANY things...
...about why he backed IWR, and his "I trusted Bush, I was wrong" is just one of them.

A week after he made that statement in Will Pitt's hearing, Saddam was captured, and Kerry was quick to jump in on the side of the "winners," criticizing those who opposed the war.

A couple of months before that, he was holding up the Iraq invasion as a model for how we have to use our military might to remake the world in our own image.

Generally speaking, when the war has seemed to be going well, Kerry has basked in his role as "conquerer of the Butcher of Baghdad." When we seem to be in a quagmire, he's the first to complain about how Bush misled him into voting for the war.

:eyes:

The fact is, on Iraq as on many other issues, John Kerry sees no need to limit himself to only one viewpoint, when a variety of them, trotted out depending on the circumstance and audience, will help him seem "The Everything Candidate For Everybody." And, fine, it might succeed. But just watch out when TECFE actually becomes President and has to choose one side or the other....my suspicion is, depending how the winds of the polls are blowing, we're going to be very unhappy on where he comes down on matters that will affect us.

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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #66
137. Kerry obviously has shitty judgement
Not a trait I'd like to see in a potential president, sadly.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
100. Why?
because he was in a position to do something then. At the very least, he could have made one of his laborious Senate speeches about the available info from a known weapons inspector that needed close examination/confirmation before any action(s) was taken. If he could make a laborious speech about WHY he gave Bush a blank check, the very least he could have also done was read material submitted to him and bring it before the press and the Senate.

Damn SOB wants our votes now for a new job but he didn't do the one he had when it mattered.

And no, it's not 100% his fault. But if he can tell George Stephanopolis (sp?) that he deserves credit for his Clinton budget (omnibus budget bill of 1993) vote and by extrapolation all the good it did, then dammit, he HAS to take blame for his deliberately uninformed, Constitution shirking, politically motivated IWR vote.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. Ritter was kicked out of Iraq well before he was finished
The threat of force implied in the resolution forced Saddam to allow Hans Blix into Iraq. We could guess about the presence of weapons but Blix could verify. Bush forced him out in his rush to invade. The course that the resolution mandated would not have led to war. The Security Council was clearly against it. Diplomatic means had clearly not been exhausted. Bush disregarded the provisions in the legislation that mandated the exhaustion of diplomatic means and rushed forward.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
135. the deaths of several thousands of innocents in Iraq = silly?
Wowza. I hope you aren't around any sharp objects.

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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. What website is that?!? And, how do you vouch for it?
:shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. Nice of you to try
But what people don't want to see, they just won't see.
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. Who are you referring to?
Kerry supporters refusing to acknowledge Kerry's culpability?

Or Kerry himself refusing to see that Bush's evidence was bullshit?

Either way, this kind of self-deception is no good for the party or the country.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Supporters
I have no doubt Kerry knew and knows exactly what he's doing. All this "But I didn't know he would attack!" crap is wasted on me.
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Plausible Deniability
It doesn't matter anymore what you actually stand for, as long as you can make the case that you never really supported it in the first place.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. And some wonder why people don't vote!
:grr:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
101. excellent points
Kerry supporters refusing to acknowledge Kerry's culpability?

Or Kerry himself refusing to see that Bush's evidence was bullshit?
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Lied to like everyone else.
The Senate and Congress was lied to even worse.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/122203A.shtml
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Kerry Lied......
People Died.......
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
76. Kerry never lied
He told people what he was told and what he saw.

Another candidate who claimed he opposed the war from the start also claimed there was not question that Saddam had WMD's and approved unilateral force if the U.N. would not enforce its resolutions. That was Howard Dean. One of the reasons that he is no longer a candidate, much less a frontrunner, is that the American voter eventually became aware the vast changes of position Dean made as it became politic to do so:

Viewing Saddam Hussein as a threat

On the September 29, 2002, episode of Face the Nation, Dean seemed to believe, wholeheartedly, that Saddam Hussein was a threat that needed to be dealt with.

While questioning the immediacy of the danger Hussein posed, Dean nevertheless said, "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies."

Then, in February 2003, Dean agreed with Bush that the Iraqi threat was real; he simply disagreed with Bush as to how the U.S. should go about dealing with that threat.

"I agree with President Bush -- he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is," Dean said. " is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html


"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.


http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

These statements of Denas do not sould like opposition to Bush, but are in fact, in accord with Bush and losely follow the rational given by the predident when he eventually abandoned diplomacy in the Security Council and went on to use of force. Pretty much on the same time schedule Bush used.

Kerry is the only candidate who has been totally clear on the conditions which he would use force. Exhaust diplomatic methods, uitilize progressive force or threat of force, war as last resort. Nothing more, nothing less. Real leadership, not saying what is politic to the electorate.

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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
32. Something else I'm wondering
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 01:52 PM by camero
Why hasn't Kerry introduced a bill for the impeachment of Bush and Co. for lying to Congress?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. That has to start in the House
Maybe that's why Nader won't flat-out endorse Kucinich.

:shrug:
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. oops, my bad
I figured at the very least he would be pressing for it to start.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. NONE of them are
I think a House member is getting ready to do it (Nader said this on MTP) but for all I know he'll be strongarmed into dropping it by the DNC / DLC.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. You're probably right on that
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:22 PM by camero
About the DLC.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. I think that a lot of this is what drives his campaign. . .
ala "Don't Get Mad, Get Even." Impeachment would go nowhere w repug control of congress. . .defeating him in the GE is doable, especially if you expose him along the way for his rotten record as pres.
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BL_Zebub Donating Member (473 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Because he's bound by an oath that says his loyalty to a fellow Bonesman..
..as Bush Jr is, comes before all else. Constitution be damned to Heaven.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. So perhaps Bush will throw the election and let Kerry win,
to satisfy his oath of loyalty.

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
50. kick
Because these people should be reminded who voted for the war and why.....




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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
74. Don't preach to me. I've protested the war also.
You don't have a lock on morality. I refuse to accept that Kerry would have invaded, and I don't think that the entire democratic minority in Congress could have stopped him short of a revision in the War Powers Act.

Preach to Bush.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #74
106. really?
"You don't have a lock on morality."

It seems to me that many these days do in fact claim to have a lock in morality or in another way, a lack of pricincipal.

FYI, go look up how Kerry wanted to invade Haiti and essentially have the ogovernment overthrown there. And if Bush's invasion of Iraq was so unpreventable, why vote to support it. Kerry's voting for IWR but then not funding the troops were two separate acts of political cowardice. And he will be hammered on that.

My point is the passion of those who opposed the war by the millions seem to have lost their collective voice and now sigh, "well it's ok".
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. No one sighed and said it's ok
But that's not to say that it isn't more complicated than the Kucinich, UN in and the US out. These issues don't present themselves as zero-sum propositions. Folks have more of a responsibility in Congress than just opposing Bush. They have to rely on information presented by our intelligence agencies and the administration. Congress does not have their own agencies.

Kerry made the judgement that, on the evidence presented that there was enough of a chance that Saddam had the weapons. So he acted to direct Bush back to the UN.

Oh. I didn't recognize you up on your high horse. We have nothing more to talk about if you continue to insist that I have no principles just because you disagree with my characterization of the resolution and Kerry's intentions. Such arrogance.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #110
130. It's not arrogance
It's reality.

also

"Kerry made the judgement that, on the evidence presented that there was enough of a chance that Saddam had the weapons. So he acted to direct Bush back to the UN."

Thanks for making Bush's case for him.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. Nothing wrong with working with the U.N.
Bush balked when they didn't go along with his plan to invade. Blix and others there rejected the notion that diplomatic means had been exhausted. That is the showing that was required in the resolution for Bush to lawfully abandon peaceful means and resort to the military option. Clearly he exceeded his mandate.

Apparently your principles wouldn't allow you to work with the U.N. to make Saddam accountable. You would rely on Ritter who had been expelled from Iraq before he could finish his inspection. I think there was value in giving Blix the opportunity to reenter Iraq, effective with the threat of force implied in the resolution. To assert that the president advocated that course is not accurate. I don't believe that the president intended to come before Congress in the first place.

I further do not believe that anything that the Democratic minority could do, short of revising the War Powers Act, would have restrained the president from invading. He had the perfect opportunity to assess whether Saddam had dangerous weapons by allowing Blix to continue. It was at that point that he stepped out from behind his charade and invaded, despite Blix's admonitions that no weaponry had been found.

You have absolutly no credible basis for your argument that Kerry's and Bush's attitudes, rationale, or actions were alike. Bush was deceptive. Kerry was clear in his opposition to unilateral, preemptive invasion, before and after the IWR vote and the subsequent invasion.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
64. His approval of the "threat of war"
Is documented in the record in the Federal Register.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
102. oh please
you didn't need a rushed, GOP pushed, October 2002 resolution to approve the threat of war.

Spin, spin, spin, the web of deceit and obfuscation grows daily.

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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
79. While we may have to hold our collective noses this November
and vote for Kerry or Edwards in order to defeat Bush, I for one am not going to deceive myself that the democratic candidate is not responsible for the carnage in Iraq. The Democratic representatives who voted for the IWR did so in large measure as an expedient vote they thought would diffuse the issue before the 2002 elections -- not only was their vote cowardly and immoral, as it turned out, it was also a strategic error. To give this president particularly the wherewithal to go to war was either criminal negligence or stupidity or both. I remember seeing Kerry on Hardball before the Iraq vote and he twisted and weaseled and did his best to have it both ways I was actually embarrassed for him. Obviously the years in Washington had softened his spine so completely that he no longer stood for anything.

Personally I would respect him more if he would stand up and say the truth about his IWR vote. If he could summon the courage to stand up and admit his vote was WRONG, was a MISTAKE (as he was able to about Vietnam) and that he deeply apologized for allowing himself to be taken in and allowing political considerations to overshadow his moral fiber or some such thing. He could also apologize for the thousands of Iraqis who are dead and maimed, for the disorder and destruction our forces have caused and promise to get the US out of Iraq and to pay reparations to those poor people so that they can get on with their lives and create their own history. Now that would be a candidate I would gladly vote for.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Kerry never intended for there to be an invasion

Most recently, in Will Pitt’s article, Kerry said:

“This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career,” Kerry said. “I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That’s what I voted for.

The way Powell, Eagleberger, Scowcroft, and the others were talking at the time,” continued Kerry, “I felt confident that Bush would work with the international community. I took the President at his word. We were told that any course would lead through the United Nations, and that war would be an absolute last resort. Many people I am close with, both Democrats and Republicans, who are also close to Bush told me unequivocally that no decisions had been made about the course of action. Bush hadn’t yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney and that whole crew. Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You’re God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake.”

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Kerry is the only one that believes in what Kerry said about IWR
Millions of people that marched around the world against the war knew full well that IWR was a war resolution and that Bush was lying about WMD. Funny that Kerry never mentions the peace marchers.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
95. The IWR was a bump on Bush's road to war. We hoped to stop him there.
He went around us.

A 'no' vote likely would not have restrained him. Hell, he wasn't even going to come to Congress first. He had to be talked into that. Few believe that anything that the Democratic minority in Congress could have accomplished would have stopped Bush from invading. All of the republican majority, as well as the majority of Americans approved of what Bush did at the time, notwithstanding the record protests. I am sorry for that Green. I don't blame Kerry.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. Then pray tell why Kerry did not stand up in the Senate with the few like
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 04:00 PM by Emillereid
Senator Byrd and offer up a resolution to stop Bush's war when it became obvious that he was going to short circuit the UN process and attack Iraq. If Kerry had not meant to authorize Bush's going to war unilaterally where was his voice of outrage in March, 2003. Now that the prevailing winds have turned, Kerry conveniently has re-written history. If he could be just half the man he was when as a 27 year old he sat before the congress and told the whole TRUTH, I could get behind him -- but too many years in Washington playing the political calculus seems to have throughly corrupted him and severed him from his own moral center.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. Congress doesn't seem to have the will to collectively stop this war,
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 04:12 PM by bigtree
. . . even in the face of the evidence that Bush inflated the threat. Two massive funding bills have ratified our mostly unilateral occupation there. I must note that my candidate voted against the $87 billion.

His presidential bid is a natural extension of his consistent aim to remove Saddam with international support. He has deeper knowledge than I as to the true nature of the threat posed. Sen. Kerry is no stranger to the debate over our support of Saddam's regime and the corrupting violence proliferated by Hussein. He voted for the Iraq Liberation Act supported by Clinton which called for regime change. He has been consistent in his concern for the security of the region and for the potential transfer of bio or chem weapons by an unchecked Iraq. His IWR vote was a reflection of that concern.

I think this fish rots at the head. Bush must go. John Kerry is consistent in seeking the presidency to ensure that the will of Congress, the American people, and the concerns of the international community are not disregarded in the future.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. no guts, no spine, no balls and political expediency
see: John Kerry's Broken Promise on the War by John C. Bonifaz

... Senator Kerry claims today that he voted for the October 2002 congressional resolution on the Iraq war based on a promise made by the president: ?...to go to the United Nations, to respect the building of an international coalition in truth, to exhaust the remedies of inspections and literally to only go to war as a last resort.?

But Senator Kerry has not revealed what he himself promised ... ?In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days ? to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force... If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out.?

Senator Kerry broke that promise ... In the crucial days after the president withdrew his efforts to gain United Nations support for his war and before the president launched his invasion, Senator Kerry remained silent. The president had, indeed, failed to build an international coalition, and yet the senator did not speak out.


In fact, the senator did not say anything at the time. Like so many of his colleagues in Congress, Senator Kerry remained on the sidelines as the president marched the nation into this reckless war. And, because of that, the senator shares today the burden of responsibility for its consequences.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0212-01.htm
John C. Bonifaz is an attorney in Boston and the author of 'Warrior-King: The Case for Impeaching George W. Bush' (NationBooks-NY, January, 2004)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. John Kerry's Statement on Iraq Before the War
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002

Obviously, with respect to an issue that might take Americans to war, we deserve time, and there is no more important debate to be had on the floor of the Senate. It is in the greatest traditions of this institution, and I am proud to take part in that debate now.

This is a debate that should be conducted without regard to parties, to politics, to labels. It is a debate that has to come from the gut of each and every Member, and I am confident that it does. I know for Senator Hagel, Senator McCain, and myself, when we pick up the newspapers and read about the residuals of the Vietnam war, there is a particular sensitivity because I do not think any of us feel a residual with respect to the choices we are making now.


I know for myself back in that period of time, even as I protested the war, I wrote that if my Nation was again threatened and Americans made the decision we needed to defend ourselves, I would be among the first to put on a uniform again and go and do that.

We are facing a very different world today than we have ever faced before. September 11 changed a lot, but other things have changed: Globalization, technology, a smaller planet, the difficulties of radical fundamentalism, the crosscurrents of religion and politics. We are living in an age where the dangers are different and they require a different response, different thinking, and different approaches than we have applied in the past.



Most importantly, it is a time when international institutions must rise to the occasion and seek new authority and a new measure of respect.

In approaching the question of this resolution, I wish the timing were different. I wish for the sake of the country we were not here now at this moment. There are legitimate questions about that timing. But none of the underlying realities of the threat, none of the underlying realities of the choices we face are altered because they are, in fact, the same as they were in 1991 when we discovered those weapons when the teams went in, and in 1998 when the teams were kicked out.

With respect to Saddam Hussein and the threat he presents, we must ask ourselves a simple question: Why? Why is Saddam Hussein pursuing weapons that most nations have agreed to limit or give up? Why is Saddam Hussein guilty of breaking his own cease-fire agreement with the international community? Why is Saddam Hussein attempting to develop nuclear weapons when most nations don't even try, and responsible nations that have them attempt to limit their potential for disaster? Why did Saddam Hussein threaten and provoke? Why does he develop missiles that exceed allowable limits? Why did Saddam Hussein lie and deceive the inspection teams previously? Why did Saddam Hussein not account for all of the weapons of mass destruction which UNSCOM identified? Why is he seeking to develop unmanned airborne vehicles for delivery of biological agents?

Does he do all of these things because he wants to live by international standards of behavior? Because he respects international law? Because he is a nice guy underneath it all and the world should trust him?

It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must: unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems... unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material.

Saddam Hussein signed that agreement. Saddam Hussein is in office today because of that agreement. It is the only reason he survived in 1991. In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them.

I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons.

He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation.

The Senate worked to urge action in early 1998. I joined with Senator McCain, Senator Hagel, and other Senators, in a resolution urging the President to "take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end his weapons of mass destruction program." That was 1998 that we thought we needed a more serious response.

Later in the year, Congress enacted legislation declaring Iraq in material, unacceptable breach of its disarmament obligations and urging the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance. In fact, had we done so, President Bush could well have taken his office, backed by our sense of urgency about holding Saddam Hussein accountable and, with an international United Nations, backed a multilateral stamp of approval record on a clear demand for the disarmament of Saddam Hussein's Iraq. We could have had that and we would not be here debating this today. But the administration missed an opportunity 2 years ago and particularly a year ago after September 11. They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case. The events of September 11 created new understanding of the terrorist threat and the degree to which every nation is vulnerable. That understanding enabled the administration to form a broad and impressive coalition against terrorism. Had the administration tried then to capitalize on this unity of spirit to build a coalition to disarm Iraq, we would not be here in the pressing days before an election, late in this year, debating this now. The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.


By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration raised doubts about their bona fides on the most legitimate justification for war--that in the post-September 11 world the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable, and his refusal to allow U.N. inspectors to return was in blatant violation of the 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power. By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

Against this disarray, it is not surprising that tough questions began to be asked and critics began to emerge. Indeed over the course of the last 6 weeks some of the strongest and most thoughtful questioning of our Nation's Iraq policy has come from what some observers would say are unlikely sources: Senators like CHUCK HAGEL and DICK LUGAR, former Bush Administration national security experts including Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, and distinguished military voices including General Shalikashvili. They are asking the tough questions which must be answered before--and not after--you commit a nation to a course that may well lead to war. They know from their years of experience, whether on the battlefield as soldiers, in the Senate, or at the highest levels of public diplomacy, that you build the consent of the American people to sustain military confrontation by asking questions, not avoiding them. Criticism and questions do not reflect a lack of patriotism--they demonstrate the strength and core values of our American democracy.

It is love of country, and it is defined by defense of those policies that protect and defend our country. Writing in the New York Times in early September, I argued that the American people would never accept the legitimacy of this war or give their consent to it unless the administration first presented detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and proved that it had exhausted all other options to protect our national security. I laid out a series of steps that the administration must take for the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq--seek the advice and approval of Congress after laying out the evidence and making the case, and work with our allies to seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement while simultaneously offering Iraq a clear ultimatum: accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise and without condition.

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq. The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed. Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction. That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world. That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq. That shift has made it possible, in my judgment, for the Senate to move forward with greater unity, having asked and begun to answer the questions that best defend our troops and protect our national security. The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question--not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out.

I have talked about that record. Iraq never fully accounted for the major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of the pre-Gulf war weapons of mass destruction program, nor did the Iraq regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons and production infrastructure.

He has continually failed to meet the obligations imposed by the international community on Iraq at the end of the Persian Gulf the Iraqi regime provide credible proof war to declare and destroy its weapons of mass destruction and delivery systems and to forego the development of nuclear weapons. during the 7 years of weapons inspections, the Iraqi regime repeatedly frustrated the work of the UNSCOM--Special Commission--inspectors, culminating in 1998 in their ouster. Even during the period of inspections, Iraq never fully accounted for major gaps and inconsistencies in declarations provided to the inspectors of its pre-gulf war WMD programs, nor did the Iraqi regime provide credible proof that it had completely destroyed its weapons stockpiles and production infrastructure.

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX. Intelligence reports show that Iraq has invested more heavily in its biological weapons programs over the 4 years, with the result that all key aspects of this program--R&D, production and weaponization--are active. Most elements of the program are larger and more advanced than they were before the gulf war. Iraq has some lethal and incapacitating agents and is capable of quickly producing and weaponizing a variety of such agents, including anthrax, for delivery on a range of vehicles such as bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives which could bring them to the United States homeland. Since inspectors left, the Iraqi regime has energized its missile program, probably now consisting of a few dozen Scud-type missiles with ranges of 650 to 900 kilometers that could hit Israel, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies in the region. In addition, Iraq is developing unmanned aerial vehicles UAVs, capable of delivering chemical and biological warfare agents, which could threaten Iraq's neighbors as well as American forces in the Persian Gulf.

Prior to the gulf war, Iraq had an advance nuclear weapons development program. Although UNSCOM and IAEA International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors learned much about Iraq's efforts in this area, Iraq has failed to provide complete information on all aspects of its program. Iraq has maintained its nuclear scientists and technicians as well as sufficient dual-use manufacturing capability to support a reconstituted nuclear weapons program. Iraqi defectors who once worked for Iraq's nuclear weapons establishment have reportedly told American officials that acquiring nuclear weapons is a top priority for Saddam Hussein's regime.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.

Absent a foreign supplier, it might be longer. There is no question that Saddam Hussein represents a threat. I have heard even my colleagues who oppose the President's resolution say we have to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. They also say we have to force the inspections. And to force the inspections, you have to be prepared to use force. So the issue is not over the question of whether or not the threat is real, or whether or not people agree there is a threat. It is over what means we will take, and when, in order to try to eliminate it.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter. In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq, and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what "relevant" U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq. In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said: The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee: That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.

In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said: "Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq. And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night: "America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm."





And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.



When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq, and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.

The definition of purpose circumscribes the authority given to the President to the use of force to disarm Iraq because only Iraq's weapons of mass destruction meet the two criteria laid out in this resolution.

Congressional action on this resolution is not the end of our national debate on how best to disarm Iraq. Nor does it mean we have exhausted all of our peaceful options to achieve this goal. There is much more to be done. The administration must continue its efforts to build support at the United Nations for a new, unfettered, unconditional weapons inspection regime. If we can eliminate the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction through inspections, whenever, wherever, and however we want them, including in palaces--and I am highly skeptical, given the full record, given their past practices, that we can necessarily achieve that--then we have an obligation to try that as the first course of action before we expend American lives in any further effort.

American success in the Persian Gulf war was enhanced by the creation of an international coalition. Our coalition partners picked up the overwhelming burden of the cost of that war. It is imperative that the administration continue to work to multilateralize the current effort against Iraq. If the administration's initiatives at the United Nations are real and sincere, other nations are more likely to invest, to stand behind our efforts to force Iraq to disarm, be it through a new, rigorous, no-nonsense program of inspection, or if necessary, through the use of force. That is the best way to proceed.

The United States, without question, has the military power to enter this conflict unilaterally. But we do need friends. We need logistical support such as bases, command and control centers, overflight rights from allies in the region. And most importantly, we need to be able to successfully wage the war on terror simultaneously. That war on terror depends more than anything else on the sharing of intelligence. That sharing of intelligence depends more than anything else on the cooperation of countries in the region. If we disrupt that, we could disrupt the possibilities of the capacity of that war to be most effectively waged.

I believe the support from the region will come only if they are convinced of the credibility of our arguments and the legitimacy of our mission. The United Nations never has veto power over any measure the United States needs to take to protect our national security. But it is in our interest to try to act with our allies, if at all possible. And that should be because the burden of eliminating the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction should not be ours alone. It should not be the American people's alone.

If in the end these efforts fail, and if in the end we are at war, we will have an obligation, ultimately, to the Iraqi people with whom we are not at war. This is a war against a regime, mostly one man. So other nations in the region and all of us will need to help create an Iraq that is a place and a force for stability and openness in the region. That effort is going to be long term, costly, and not without difficulty, given Iraq's ethnic and religious divisions and history of domestic turbulence. In Afghanistan, the administration has given more lipservice than resources to the rebuilding effort. We cannot allow that to happen in Iraq, and we must be prepared to stay the course over however many years it takes to do it right.

The challenge is great: An administration which made nation building a dirty word needs to develop a comprehensive, Marshall-type plan, if it will meet the challenge. The President needs to give the American people a fairer and fuller, clearer understanding of the magnitude and long-term financial cost of that effort.

The international community's support will be critical because we will not be able to rebuild Iraq singlehandedly. We will lack the credibility and the expertise and the capacity. It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.

He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. One of the lessons I learned from fighting in a very different war, at a different time, is we need the consent of the American people for our mission to be legitimate and sustainable. I do know what it means, as does Senator Hagel, to fight in a war where that consent is lost, where allies are in short supply, where conditions are hostile, and the mission is ill-defined. That is why I believe so strongly before one American soldier steps foot on Iraqi soil, the American people must understand completely its urgency. They need to know we put our country in the position of ultimate strength and that we have no options, short of war, to eliminate a threat we could not tolerate.

I believe the work we have begun in this Senate, by offering questions, and not blind acquiescence, has helped put our Nation on a responsible course. It has succeeded, certainly, in putting Saddam Hussein on notice that he will be held accountable; but it also has put the administration on notice we will hold them accountable for the means by which we do this.

It is through constant questioning we will stay the course, and that is a course that will ultimately defend our troops and protect our national security.

President Kennedy faced a similar difficult challenge in the days of the Cuban missile crisis. He decided not to proceed, I might add, preemptively. He decided to show the evidence and proceeded through the international institutions. He said at the time:

"The path we have chosen is full of hazards, as all paths are... The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.

I yield the floor.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. words, words, words and more words..........
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 08:54 PM by Carolina
a laborious explanation in Kerry's typical, long-winded Senate speak which will really go over well in the GE. Spare me. ACTIONS speak louder than words; they always have and they always will. VOTES say it so simply. And he should have voted NO! He should also have heeded Scott Ritter.

Iraq was no threat having been decimated by 8 years of war with Iran, a month of war with US, 12 years of sanctions and more US bombing in 1998. Saddam had no saber to rattle and we knew it so Kerry's line about being "blackmailed or extorted by these weapons" is pure poppycock.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. You have to read the words
Or else be satisfied to replace them with your own cynical view. Scott Ritter's inspection tour was abruptly cut off before he finished. He was not part of the intelligence briefings. He had no way of knowing what was still in Iraq, or what had been brought in after he left. The resolution caused Saddam to allow inspectors back in. We could speculate, but Hans Blix could verify.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. I did read the words
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 10:43 PM by Carolina
and even if Scott Ritter was out of the loop and no longer knew what was in Iraq, neither apparently did any one else. Passing a resolution in haste that enabled Bush was cynical ...

Moreover, Kerry could have, should have followed the leads of colleagues Kennedy and Byrd. It's not cynical to be against a friggin war that we knew then did not need to happen. Iraq was not an imminent threat to the US, period.

Kerry's words rung hollow then and have proven to be empty now.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. Blix was let back in after the IWR vote. Blix is the movement's best ally

Blix said US President George W Bush had told him in October 2002 that he backed the UN's work to verify US and British claims that Baghdad was developing biological, chemical and nuclear weapons.

But he said he knew at the time "there were people within the Bush administration who were sceptical and who were working on engineering regime change". By the start of March the hawks in both Washington and London were getting impatient, he added.

Blix said that he thought the US might initially have believed Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction - although its "fabrication" of evidence raised doubts about even that - but that Washington was now less convinced by its own claims.

"I think the Americans started the war thinking there were some. I think they now believe less in that possibility.
http://www.truthout.com/docs_03/041203A.shtml



Wednesday 05 February 2003

The chief UN weapons inspector yesterday dismissed what has been billed as a central claim of the speech the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, will make today to the UN security council.

Hans Blix said there was no evidence of mobile biological weapons laboratories or of Iraq trying to foil inspectors by moving equipment before his teams arrived.

In a series of leaks or previews, the state department has said Mr Powell will allege that Iraq moved mobile biological weapons laboratories ahead of an inspection. Dr Blix said he had already inspected two alleged mobile labs and found nothing: "Two food-testing trucks have been inspected and nothing has been found."

Dr Blix said that the problem of bio-weapons laboratories on trucks had been around for a while and that he had received tips from the US that led him to inspect trucks in Iraq. The Iraqis claimed that the trucks were used to inspect the quality of food production.
http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/020603A.htm


Mr. Blix said he continued to endorse disarmament through peaceful means. "I think it would be terrible if this comes to an end by armed force, and I wish for this process of disarmament through the peaceful avenue of inspections," he said. "But I also know that diplomacy needs to be backed by force sometimes, and inspections need to be backed by pressure."

The decision to disarm Iraq through force was not his, he said, restating what has become a veritable mantra: It has to be decided by the "Security Council, and yes, by Iraq."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/international/middleeast/31BLIX.html?ex=1077771600&en=bf43cd9a74669d35&ei=5070


Blix said top US officials, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice were anxious to get evidence implicating Baghdad in violations of Resolution 1441 in the run-up to the war.

"They would have hoped and they would been happy to see if we had said, 'Here Iraq has violated, here they have, here is the smoking gun. We have found it,'" said the ex-arms inspector. "And when we didn't do that, well, then they were disappointed. And then they overinterpreted their own intelligence."

He said he did not want to suggest that top US officials were wilfully and consciously lying, but he said he believed Washington was too willing to jump to conclusions.

"I said in the Security Council that if something is unaccounted for, it doesn't necessarily mean that they exist," Blix said. "And I think there was that tendency to jump to that conclusion."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0909-01.htm


Blix doesn't think Bush exhausted all diplomatic or peaceful means.


STOCKHOLM—The U.S.-led war against Iraq "was not justified" because Saddam Hussein's regime didn't pose an imminent threat, says former U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix. In a lengthy interview in his home in the Swedish capital, Blix unleashed a stinging indictment against the U.S. and British governments, describing them as purveyors of "spin and hype" during the run-up to war.

They "over-interpreted" intelligence information on Iraq, insisting with the fervour of medieval witch hunters that the ousted regime possessed weapons of mass destruction when no such proof existed, he says.

Blix was pointedly critical of British Prime Minister Tony Blair's intelligence dossier and said his government had no evidence to support its claim that Iraq was continuing "to produce chemical and biological agents."

What U.S. President George W. Bush's administration described as a pre-emptive war did not meet the most basic criteria that could justify such a strike — the threat was neither tangible nor imminent, he adds.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1064097010731&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724



Show me where Hans Blix blames the IWR. He blames Bush, Powell, and Blair.
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vision Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #104
121. That is my biggest problem with Kerry
How did Kerry speak out? With an op-ed. Just like his recent letter to Bush challenging him to a debate about Viet Nam.

Aarrgh!!!

He is one of the most powerful Senators in the Senate. He is an accomplished speaker. He is a former warrior who has been under fire.

But when it came time to hold the President responsible he did very little. He should have been on the Senate floor everyday, with Byrd and others, attacking the President. He should have filibustered every bill until the President upheld his word.

Just like Daschel when he said that nothing would be done until Bush apologized for saying that Dems were not patriotic. So for a couple of days the Dems did hold the work of the Senate until Bush gave a non-apology apology. The Dems accepted it and work continued. I thought a great opportunity was missed at that time and I think that Kerry missed one when it was apparent that Bush would go to war. Instead of standing up and fighting tooth and nail they gave a little criticism but did not stop him.

The Dems the past few years have not done much that I have been proud of. Stopping some of the judicial nominees has been high points but there have been more low IMO.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #121
129. He did speak out
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vision Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. What legislation did he stop?
Was he on the Senate floor Filbusting anything? Words are great but as a powerful Senator I would like to see stop Bush consistently.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. Me too. (nt)
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #79
103. eloquently stated
and I totally agree.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
88. They all thought there were - even those voting against IWR
At least, kerry now says he was deceived. Edwards sez : who cares?

Can I just go back a moment ago -- to a question you asked just a moment ago? You asked, I believe, Senator Kerry earlier whether there's an exaggeration of the threat of the war on terrorism.
"It's just hard for me to see how you can say there's an exaggeration when thousands of people lost their lives on September the 11th."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/transcripts/debatetranscript29.html

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Oh, we care
On this topic, the debate is truely over the lesser of two evils.
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BigBigBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
90. Bush's greatest crime
was not invading Iraq, but using a post-9/11, security-sensitized political climate to bludgeon Congress into scratching PNAC's geopolitical itch.

Had they argued that an attack on Yemen, or Pakistan, or Libya would have made us safer, the Congressional reaction would have been the same. Saddam was an easy target, since he had been so thoroughly dfemonized in American polotical discourse already, it was an easy leap.

In retrospect, those of us who argued against going to war wish our representatives had the courage to speak as we spoke, but most of them didn't.

They faced a choice: vote for Bush's IWR or face relentless criticism as being soft on national security only a year after 9/11.

Bush, Delay, Lott, Rove - all of those bastards dragged Congress along for cover - they KNEW what we would find there. Now they are hiding behind Kerry and Edwards and Hillary's votes.

Craven sob's - Kerry got bait 'n switched like most of America.

Bush needs to go for more reasons than Iraq - for that reason, I'm still onboard with Kerry. For now.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
93. Although * is not any real executive, the words do betray the debate
The difference between legislative and executive are well defined in the Constitution. You will need to throw it out and or rewrite it before the any of this works in my dictionary
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
107. Sorry, But Hamza Was Not Only Guy Testifying
"Every nation has the right to act preemptively if it faces an imminent and grave threat. But the threat we face, today, with Iraq fails the test. Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he will use these weapons one day if he is not disarmed. But it is not imminent.

None of our intelligence reports suggest that Saddam Hussein is about to launch any kind of attack against us or countries in the region. The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that Iraq disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption."

...

"According to the CIA's report, all US intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within one year. Absent a foreign supplier, the CIA estimates that Iraq would not be able to produce a weapon until the last half of this decade."

--------------------------------

BTW - Wasn't there some guy who came out and said that the Foreign Relation Committee was given much more proof than was made public, because of "national security" concerns? Forgot the guys name, but I distinctly remember this, because Will Pitt had mentioned it.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. There were no damn weapons.
DISARRAY IN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OVER FACING SADDAM HUSSEIN;
HEARING OF THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE;
10:37 A.M. EDT TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1999
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1999_h/990928-iraq-sfrc.htm


SEN. KERRY: So, what has happened? I mean, you may have described -- I just read your testimony -- have described a little bit. But, I mean, what really has happened here? Have we been bamboozled? Is our policy simply a failure? Are we frightened? Is there something that has changed in the nature of this threat? Because I really don't understand it. And it seems to me that for the cause of proliferation, whether it's with respect to Iraq or any other number of countries about which we have enormous concerns, the message that comes out of this is that maybe the forces aligned to try to hold people accountable are, in fact, paper tigers and not serious about it.

... I think we're talking about a very significant, large strategic interest of the United States that for various reasons has been second-tiered to sometimes more emotional and certainly of-the-moment perceptions of other issues that don't rise to the same strategic, longer-term interests of our country. So I think it's important for us to be thinking about where we go, because I've said, and I think you and others have said, there's an ultimate time -- as long as he's there, and it may well be that the Iraqi people will settle that. But as long as he is there, I think most people understand that that threat remains and it's real. So -- and there's a time of confrontation. So I think we're better to do it sooner rather than later and to be real about our resolve.

<<<>>>

So it seems that Kerry finally got what he was looking for from Bush*, a leader who was "real about our resolve" who was ready to act "sooner rather than later". Bush* is most assuredly not another of those "paper tigers".
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. He meant, as Clinton did, to act with the U.N., not preemptively
The U.N was not inclined to war. The Security Council stood Bush down.

But you go ahead and replace his words with your own cynical view.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. Here's Clinton's View
"The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War."

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/12/17/loc_clintons_statement.html

If you read about the history of UNSCOM, even barring the spying, it is clear that Saddam was like a kid who keeps pushing to see how much he can get away with. They were finding large, undisclosed stocks of chemical weapons as late as November of 1998.

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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
120. but but hes electable hes too spineless or too stupid take your pick
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #120
124. Spineless or stupid?
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
134. Kerr y wanted no interference in his ass saving vote.
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