Give me your best shot: Why not Joe Biden?

[Mike03]

Biden is my favorite candidate at this point, although when push comes to shove in the primaries I may vote--in spite of my deepest hopes--for someone else for some strategic purpose.

It's a mystery to me why Biden is not one of the top candidates. To me, he is not only the most qualified, but the most experienced, human, intelligent, most reasonable, most realistic and most humane candidate I've ever seen. He has been to hell and back (his family killed), and as far as I can discern he is bright as can be and has some hard-earned knowledge of what he talks about.

My impression of Biden is that he is an amazing, honorable and trustworthy person who would make a great president.

[aquart]

1. Enjoy him. Vote for him.

But my memory is long and unforgiving. I still believe Anita Hill.

[1corona4u]

8. Let me ask you something....

have you ever been through a sexual harassment case? Probably not. Guess what? I HAVE.

Do you think for one fucking second, that Joe Biden, who authored the Violence against women act, really had it IN for Anita?

You need remember, that this was the first time sexual harassment was EVER in the public eye.

Jeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........................................

Biden followed the law. Like it or not.

[Tashca]

14. no favoritism

He played the ground between. I know this unset many people, but in actuality he did follow the law. Many people where upset because he didn't choose one side or the other. He followed his principles. I didn't like what happened to Anita HIll at all. Joe did the right thing though. And most people forget that he did not vote for Thomas.

[1corona4u]

18. Exactly...

and he didn't want particular evidence in also, because then he would have had to allow the same type evidence in against Anita. People fail to realize that. Coming from someone who's been through it since that time, I can tell you, it's a battle, and it's not pretty no matter which side you're on. In my case, the other side tried to make me look like the whore of babylon, which I wasn't. I hadn't had a man in my life for a LONG time, but they accused me of sleeping with all of my previous bosses, said that I was flirtatious with other men on the job, etc, etc, etc....none of it was true of course, but it's to be expected.

By the way, I won.

[aquart]

41. I don't like it and he doesn't have my vote.

I'm glad you got to court. I am. I must be older, because when I was working, we had to shut up and take it. Or talk our way out of it. Which may be why I have a reaction to Anita Hill that you don't and can't. That was when I found out that no man in Congress represented ME. That was when I started voting for WOMEN.

Should the heavens part and Biden receive the party nomination, I will cough blood and vote for him. I'm not really worried about that, however.

You asked. I answered.

[1corona4u]

42. Well, it's because if that hearing....

us women don't have to deal with the good ole' boys now. Keep that in mind while you make judgments. I'm 50, so I'm not sure you're older than me, but be that as it may, Joe followed the law, and I'm sorry you thought he should have been more "fair" to her, but that's not what it was about. In any event, it took me 4.5 years to get through mine. But I don't dwell on things in the past, or thing I can not change...life's too short to hold a grudge.

[redqueen]

139. "life's too short to hold a grudge"

After you tell me I'm a "waste of time... among other things"

You're a fuckin riot you are.

[coalition_unwilling]

192. "Followed the law"??? - Exactly which "law" are you referring to?

FACT: Anita Hill complained to friends and colleagues at the time of the alleged harassment that Thomas was harassing her. (Friends and colleagues were all willing to cooroborate that she complained of it at the time it was happening.) Thus, Hill did not raise the issue for the first time at the confirmation hearings.

FACT: Thomas (playing the race card with his "high-tech lynching" remark) never had to address the fact that Hill's friends corroborated her story in its small details as well as large details. Biden, as chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee at the time, could have scheduled a session +wherein Thomas was forced to respond to Hill's witnesses corroborating her story. Which leads to . . .

CONCLUSION: Biden allowed Thomas, a serial sexual harasser, to "get away with it."

RESULT; I will never vote for Biden for anything. I'm a man, by the way.

[1corona4u]

230. Biden followed the law....

Biden didn't allow Thomas to get away with anything. It wasn't a prosecution trial. It was a confirmation hearing, in which, after which, he voted against Thomas. Thomas was confirmed with a vote of 52-48 in the senate. So don't blame Joe.

[Think82]

57. Wait, so you ONLY vote for women now?

That's interesting. Biden authored the Violence Against Women act and voted NO for Thomas. He was impartial at the hearings. It is sad you are so quick to judge.

[Evergreen Emerald]

20. me. too.

That is an issue for me. I remember the betrayal well.

[1corona4u]

22. ...

:eyes:

[MadBadger]

2. One of the first reasons you will hear I guarantee is...bankruptcy bill

[WheelWalker]

24. red-herring

[dugggy]

258. The bankruptcy bill was much needed....

but it could have excepted the really unfortunate such as
those with serious medical conditions.

My own brother-in-laws have used the chapter 11 laws to live
a spendy life and then not pay for it. Does not seem right.

[gateley]

3. crickets.... nt

[1corona4u]

4. I can't think of a single reason not to vote for him..

sorry! Not much help here...

[skipos]

5. He has votes I don't like (as do ALL of the candidates)

but the biggest DU gripe will probably be the bankruptcy bill.

IMO, he would be a great president, and a great candidate. No one bothers polling him, but i think he would be our strongest general election candidate. He has experience, he is a great speaker, he already has good relationships with foreign leaders (who call HIM instead of calling Rice or Bush) and he has an interesting history (youngest senator ever elected, overcoming tragedy, 2nd lowest net worth in the senate because he refuses to own stocks, takes public transport most days to be with his family, etc)

And the bonus is that he could pick virtually anyone as a VP. While Obama and Edwards will probably choose a VP with perceived experience, Biden could choose a little known female governor like Sebelius of KS, or Schweitzer of MT, or Obama or Richardson.

[melody]

6. Bankruptcy bill and plagiarism

I like a lot of what Joe says. He seems like a good fellow. I wish he walked the walk more than he does.

[joeybee12]

7. Yeah, sometimes he gets all fired up, sometimes I think he's asleep...

...its the inconsistency that bugs me.

[1corona4u]

13. Show me one time you thought he was asleep...

show me.

[melody]

46. exactly

The future Democrat is going to have to choose which master he/she serves -- the blind
megacorporate machine or the rest of American humanity.

[Caseman]

51. Spin, baby, spin.

Let's see how many 'corporate' posts you can slip into this thread alone :o

[melody]

59. I haven't posted more than once about "corporate" anywhere in any thread

Spin yourself

[1corona4u]

68. And we all know which one your candidate serves...

try "Edwards Cayman Islands", on Google....

[melody]

163. He's not my candidate ... we're all on the same team and should be backing the strongest one

This is not a wrestling ring for fan club presidents.

[ginchinchili]

289. With as much stupidity as I see in the US, I'd never claim that we're all on the same page

I won't support just any candidate. I'm so sick and tired of these windup, retail politicians who run to fulfill their own ambitions first. I strongly support Joe Biden because he tells the truth. He's been in the Senate for over 35 years and hasn't used it to make himself rich. Very few of our politicians can make that claim. He's the most qualified, the smartest, most honest, and most electable. It's a no-brainer, but you have to have a brain first.

[youthere]

74. and show me where he was inconsistent...

ONE of the reasons I settled on Biden is because he is consistent. Every time I hear him speak, he says the same thing, he doesn't change his message for his audience.

[walk softly]

215. I'd like to hear from Iowans

that have heard Joe Biden explain to Iowa voters why he was one of three Democrats that voted with the Republicans on the 2005 bankruptcy bill. And "going after dead beat dads doesn't count".

[1corona4u]

12. There was NO plagairism...

It was always credited to Kinnock, and he inadvertantly left it out ONE time, which was caught on tape. Also, he was cleared of any wrong doing in 1989;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE1DD1230F93AA15756C0A96F948260

He always walks the walk. Always. In fact, he's the only one that does.

[melody]

45. There were two instances

And I just don't buy the explanations. I don't feel they conform to the facts.

I like Joe. I'd like to believe in him. I just don't. His abandoning the people with the bankruptcy bill alone
was enough for me to be permanently switched off.

[Caseman]

49. Switched off for one mistake?

For a John "I'm Sorry" Edwards supporter, you seem to have little forgiveness for any other candidate. Follow the money, Biden has one of the lowest incomes of the Senate, yet he's the one who's corporate corrupt?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1corona4u]

69. Then you don't know his record. At all.

If he's your second choice, then you shouldn't be slamming him.

[Think82]

53. One vote you dont like in 35 years? And you support John "I was wrong" Edwards?

I think you are buying the rhetoric over Biden's impeccab;le record supporting labor and civil rights and environmental legislation.

[melody]

58. I think you are trying to guess why I'm supporting someone

Is that the best you can do in supporting Biden? Attack others' choices? The OP asked, I answered.

His "impeccable" record is certainly excellent when compared to all the GOP. He's not the only Democrat
running. I've made my choice for my reasons. His record and other factors weigh into that.

[1corona4u]

71. The fact that JE has been wrong too...

should bother you, but apparently, it doesn't.

[melody]

161. Everybody is human -- everybody screws up -- Edwards has the best chance of winning

I didn't want to be cruel, but the fact of the matter is sociobiology plays a huge part in the electorate's
reaction and Biden isn't an Alpha primate. We only elect Alphas. I'm not an Alpha either.

I was giving you the base reasons I have a problem with him, but my problem with Joe is my problem with Dennis.
We HAVE to win this friggin' election or we'll all be forced to go to church on Sundays with rifles pointed at
our heads. And they can't win. End of story.

[Think82]

211. Biden would do better than Edwards in the GE.

On the Biden blog there are many lifetime repubs that are coming to express their support.

Also, I'm confused as to the "sociobiology alpha-male" thing. Are you saying Biden's NOT an alpha-male? He's the epitome of an Alpha-male. HAven't you been watching the debates?

TO lump Biden's electability in with Kucinich is, also, laughable. Biden, not Edwards or Kucinich, has gotten significant bi-prtisan legislation through.

[1corona4u]

70. And I don't believe you candidate....

Totally a phony ass.

[1corona4u]

72. Wait? Didn't you just say he was your second choice?

You contradict yourself....but I have come to expect that from Edwards supporters. After all, it's what JE does best as well.

[melody]

169. Welcome to my ignore list, along with all the rude Hillarians and Barackis. n/t

[napi21]

91. There is a big hole in the bankruptcy bill that didn't allow and exclusion

for medical bills, but there were a lot of good things in that bill too! Deadbeat dads can no longer walk away from their responsibilities, and that was a BIG improvement! It's unfair to assume every Senator should vote NO if they don't get everything they want in every bill! It just6 doesn't work that way! The better solution would be to petition a new Dem congress & a new Dem President to change the current law to include a medical bill exemption!

[medicswife]

94. Refresh my memory

Was this bill passed under Republican or Democratic control? And who was the author?

[napi21]

109. I haven't found the author yet, but it was enacted in 2005, so it

was under Pub rule. Here's a link to an article on the bill and some of the ammendments the Dems proposed.

http://matewan.squarespace.com/journal/2005/3/7/the-bankruptcy-bill-re-ignites-the-class-war.html

[walk softly]

217. CREDIT CARD COMPANIES

authored the bill ref above link

[youthere]

257. No. Chuck Grassley from IA authored the bill.

[1corona4u]

111. Medic;

I'll post my normal post for you to read, and there is no exclusion for the cause of a BK. It can be for any reason. People like to throw that out there to bolster their claimes, but it's simply not true;


As I have posted many, many, times on this board, Joe voted for the BK bill, for women and children. Under the old BK laws, divorced women with children were the last ones to be paid, if the deadbeat dad filed a BK. Now, they are the first ones to be paid. If you ever question why Joe votes for anything, go look at the floor statements on his website. They will clearly give you an idea of where his interest were. Not in some bank, as has been previously speculated on. There's just no denying that Joe has stood up for women's rights, in a big way. As in the violence against women act, and now, the International violence against women act. But, no "bill" will ever work for all people. There are a lot of people who respect the revisions of the 2005 BK bill. I am one of them.

My best friend is about to reap the rewards of this bill. Her X has just filed a BK, after leaving her without ANY child support, for 2 children, 8 & 6, for 4 years, and just on Thursday of last week, thought that he could get out of paying her by filing a BK. Well, it's people like him that will not be able to get away with it now. He claimed to have lost his 135K yr. job, and had protested ANY request for documentation for his current financial status. Her attorney called for deposition, forcing discovery. Then came back and filed a BK. I know for a fact that he hid money, and that he is also still working, under the table. Under the new law, he will be fully investigated by the courts.

A Senator sometimes has to vote for a bad bill, if there is something in it they truly want. I believe that was Joe's dilemma on the BK bill. But you can look for yourself, and see his financial contributions from banks from 1998, and it's not very impressive.

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.

[youthere]

160. Senator Grassley R-IA

Gag..one of my very own senators...
People like to lay the blame for the bankruptcy bill at Bidens feet but the fact is, the bill was presented during a REPUBLICAN controlled congress. It was going to pass with or without Bidens vote (and the other 17 Dems that voted for it).
So what choice, really, did Biden have? A principled "No" gained nothing. He's from Delaware, and like it or not, his constituency is the banking industry and those employed by it. But Biden was able to use his influence on BOTH sides of the aisle to get the child support protections put in the bill. You know, like it or not, people have to accept that our elected officials are there to represent their own constituencies, even if we don't agree with it (Also known as "dancing with them that brought ya'" ) AND I'd like to add, even though it's an unpopular stance on DU, that bankruptcy reform was needed, and the biggest thing this reform did was establish a "means" test. Those that have mean's to repay part of the debt can't file Chapter 7, but they can still file chapter 13 which "settles" the debt owed for a lesser amount. I don't think that's out of line. If you CAN pay your debt-or at least SOME of it, then you damn well should.

[elleng]

253. Bankruptcy Bill misconceptions

Common misconceptions about Biden and the Bankrupcty Bill:

Miscon: Biden sponsered the bill.
Fact: The Sponsor of the Bill was Chuck Grassley of Iowa (R)

Miscon: Biden’s vote was the key vote for passage.
Fact: Biden’s vote was one of 75 votes for passage.

Miscon: Biden could have filibustered to stop the bill.
Fact: 60 votes for “cloture” (end of debate) would have prevented a filibuster.

Miscon: Biden has made “sweetheart” real estate deals with the credit card industry.
Fact: Biden’s only real estate is his home. His net-worth is only about $150K

Miscon: Biden voted for the Bill to keep his seat in the Senate.
Fact: Biden was reelected in 2002, 3 years before the bill passed in March 2005.

Miscon: Biden is beholden to the credit card industry in the State of Delware.
Fact: Biden is no more “beholden” to the c.c. ind. than Dodd is to the Insurance Ind. in Conn; Edwards was to the tabacco ind. in N. Caro; Clinton is to the Garment ind, in N.Y.; Obama is to the meat-packing ind in Illinois. Every United States Senator is expected to balance the interests of his or her constituents against the interests of the American people at large.

MORE IMPORTANT

When the bill came up again in the spring of 2005, Hillary Clinton did not bother to vote. 75 United States Senators approved the bill. Biden could see that the passage of the bill was inevitable. The bill’s sponsor wanted Biden’s influence on their side and he was able to use that leverage to make some important improvements to it.

What Biden did was twofold: First, he saw to it that the bill contained some exemptions for small business. Second–and certainly the most important measure–was his insistence the Bankrupcty code be amended to change the creditor status of mothers with dependent children.

More info available.

[NI4NI]

166. It's unfortunate that the "explanations" do not conform to your "facts"

But it is very significant and most relevant that the "explanations" and "facts" conformed with both the Syracuse University Law School, and the Delaware State Bar Association investigations well enough for them to clear Biden of plagiarism charges.

[robbedvoter]

200. "Get over it. President Bush is our president for the next four years"

Full quote:
"Biden also praised Rice, but noted that "relations with many of our
oldest friends are quite frankly scraping the bottom right now.''
However, Biden also had blunt advice for European critics: "I have one
simple message: Get over it. Get over it. President Bush is our
president for the next four years. So get over it and start to act in
your interest, Europe.''..........

There was also the MTP argument for McCain as Kerry president...and Obama being clean and articulate...All those cherries on top of voting for the war, Patriot Act and the other great stuff that excludes for me most of the candidates except DK and Gravel.

[elleng]

249. Robbed, is that YOU???

REALLY?

EllenG

[robbedvoter]

261. Yup. It's me!

[Think82]

55. Biden walked picket lines while he was a Senator in the 70s, guess who didn't, when he was a Senator

YOUR GUY

[melody]

60. MY GUY? What is this, high school?

MY GUY personally helped friends of mine in a very bad situation. I have secondhand knowledge of his
integrity and decency.

One thing that is REALLY beginning to make me doubt Joe Biden is this shooting gallery of "supporters".

[Tashca]

67. That's real kewl

When you get to know a person on a personal level, like you just explained with you friends, it is hard to shake that confidence. I can totally understand your Feelings toward Edwards.
Several years ago when Tom Vilsack made his first run at the State Senate here we spent hours together. We drank lots of coffee and ate more than our shares of desert. Tom is one of the smartest people I ever met. He could grasp a situation so quickly I couldn't believe it. The funny thing is...we disagreed on many things. I never really got the chance to see if I would support him on his run for President. On one hand it would have been kewl to actually know him as the President. But on the other I think there are people who better fit what I think we need as a president.

[1corona4u]

73. We're not stupid...

you come into this thread, start blasting away, and then have the audacity to say "shooting gallery of supporters"?

If the shoe fits.....perhaps you should own it.

[melody]

158. Excuse me but the name of the thread is "Why not Joe Biden?" I said so in a couple of words.

If you're afraid of the answer, don't ask the question.

And due to this crap with you -- and I assume you're deeply connected given the huge size of your signature graphic --
I'm going over right now and unsubbing from both Joe's and his sister's mailing lists.

[Think82]

212. We're merely defending your points. We can retort, can't we? Also...

some of the reasons you have for not voting for Joe can also be applied to Edwards, and we are merely pointing out that fact.

[melody]

236. I'd consider that very rude in a thread where you asked opinions

It's one thing to disagree, quite another to be roundly rude and disagreeable as a couple of posters were.

This thread is going invisible as will any thread with Biden in it -- I thought the Hillary and Obama fanatics
were bad.

[1corona4u]

237. We didn't ask for the opinons...

the OP did.

Oh, and by the way, I am not in any way connected with Biden. Other than being a supporter.

[msongs]

9. he's not constantly thumping his bible at us nt

[maddiejoan]

10. Because he'll probably rename the Capitol

as "Capitol One"

[1corona4u]

15. Nope, don't think so....

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x76642

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. LOL True

[youthere]

76. You may want to take a look at who receives the most support from commercial banks...

because it ISN'T Joe Biden. Take a look here:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F03

[robbedvoter]

262. Love it! Fitting too!

[Mike03]

11. He's so real and down to earth and insane, I don't really understand

how anyone could not prefer him over the other candidates.

My view is that I will be proud of any Dem who wins the nomination, but just very personally and deep down, I can't for the life of me understand why any Democrat doesn't understand why Biden--next to Gore--would be the most sensible candidate.

Anyway... Sorry for venting.

[1corona4u]

16. Hey, we get it....

well, some of us do.;-)

[Tashca]

17. I don't either.

I have studied this very hard too. I don't understand why he doesn't have more support either. I do know he can't get the money from special interests. I know it is nonstop campaign adds here in Iowa. Nothing but sound bites. I wish people would take their time to really look at this man. Unfortunately it seems to end up being the one with the most money......

[coalition_unwilling]

196. Some of us have long memories and remember Anita Hill -n/t

[Tashca]

227. Is this the only issue??

I assume if it is ......it's a deal breaker for you. The Thomas hearings were addressed earlier in the link. I don't have much more to add. You and I can disagree on this subject and that certainly isn't a problem for me. I remember the hearings well.....and I wasn't happy with Joe not taking Anita's side and letting people like Hatch and Danforth tear her apart. I realize now that Joe did what he felt was necessary as Chairman. He stayed within the constraints of the law. He did what was right. Those people who tried to destroy her are the ones you should loath.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

19. Rolls over for credit card industry like the bankruptcy bill. Probably a corp whore.

I just don't trust the guy, smart, sounds good,looks slick, plays the role but he may be bought like too many other politicians on both sides. Fails the corp stink test for me.

[1corona4u]

23. read #15.

and follow the link.

[Tashca]

26. don't think so

For a guy that would sound good....look slick....and play the roll he must really suck at it. 35 years in the Senate and ranks 99th on net worth???......He really sucks at corruption as far as I can see. Maybe he isn't corrupt??? Corp. whore????.....no indication of that whatsoever!!!

[WheelWalker]

29. "he may be bought" doesn't sound like you have any evidence that he "has" been bought...

Sham. Sounds good, but false in fact. Find something with some legs, if you can. And by the way..."corporate whore" doesn't sound respectful of a democratic candidate. Maybe you're in the wrong community for a political discussion of the positive sort we intend for ourselves. Just a thought.

[youthere]

77. A corporate WHORE? You need to do a little research.

Start here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F03

[youthere]

79. Yep he's a whore...who rides the Amtrack to work everyday...

A corporate whore who sold his house to pay for his kid's college education. (One of which is headed to Iraq by the way)
A corporate whore with the second LOWEST net worth in the senate.
A corporate whore who has never owned a single piece of stock because it would be, in his own words, "A conflict of interest"

Yep, he's been bought and sold allright. :eyes:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F03

[murbley40]

82. probably?

I guess that proves you don't really know.

[Frustratedlady]

144. What? Have you ever met Joe?

I don't understand the hate-mongering against Joe. He's a downhome type of guy who never met a person he couldn't sit down and visit with....WITH, not at. He is just as friendly and polite as your best friend. I can't see where people are getting all these hateful things they are saying about Joe.

As for the bankruptcy bill, why are people so up in arms at Joe for that? He did what he could in that stinkin' Republican Congress of the time, and if you want to yell at anyone, yell at Bush and his cabal. He and his cronies wanted to restrict bankruptcies because they knew what was ahead in his lousy economy. Unless the complainers have found themselves in a tight situation where they considered bankruptcy, but weren't able to file, I don't see where you are coming from. If your finances are such that you've just overspent your budget, no one is to blame but you. We can't bail everyone out of trouble. If there is a medical situation or someone lost their job because of outsourcing/plant closings, that's a different story.

Sorry, but I think Joe is taking all this crap from people who don't have a clue. It not only makes me mad, it hurts me deep inside. I know Joe is the right person for the job. Why can't you see it, too? Damn it!

[Mike03]

21. The Bankruptcy Bill

It sounded mean and awful, but to my knowledge it didn't adversely affect too many lower income people. My family makes loans to needy people and a number of them have declared bankruptcy since the passage of that bill and it's just the same as it used to be. Their loans are written off as unrecoverable.

[1corona4u]

25. Exactly.

The only ones crying now, are deadbeat dads.

[murbley40]

83. Exactly.

But try to explain that to those who use it against Joe and you will be wasting your time and energy :banghead:

[LWolf]

27. Because Dennis Kucinich is better.

Biden has some great strengths. I just like the Kucinich record and platform better.

[1corona4u]

28. What record?

This one;



Kucinich, a Democrat, has been a Representative from Ohio since 1997.
Kucinich is a radical Democrat according to GovTrack's own analysis of bill sponsorship. (Where do these labels come from?)

Kucinich missed 341 of 6988 votes (5%) since Jan 7, 1997 (Average relative to peers).

Kucinich sponsored 103 bills since Jan 7, 1997, of which 94 (91%) haven't made it out of committee and 1 were successfully enacted.

[LWolf]

238. This record, since you asked:

HR 676

H Res 333/799

HR 1234

HR 6200 of 2006

Votes against IWR, against Patriot Act, NAFTA, and CAFTA.

Universal public pre-school through college.

New fairness doctrine.

Opposes corporate personhood.

Support of public financed elections, IRV, and other points to reform the election process.

Just to start with. I could go on, but none of his opponents come close to this without even adding more.

Please remember that I said something positive about Joe Biden. I don't have to dislike or attack Biden to believe that Kucinich has the better platform and record. Mike03 asked "Why not Biden?"

So I answered. I stand by that answer.

[redstateblues]

30. bad hair plugs

[1corona4u]

38. Bad hairplugs?

and I'm pretty sure if you're a man, you'd have hair plugs too, if you had your head cut open twice for surgery.

By the way, here is a bad hair plug job;



Biden, not so much...;



(I think he's gorgeous.. I love older men...) :-)

[bdamomma]

183. talking about handsome he looks good in a turtleneck.

[murbley40]

188. I totaly agree.

[1corona4u]

239. Yeah, not much to dislike there...

[faithfulcitizen]

89. he looks bald in back to me...

so I guess those would be REALLY bad hairplugs, ones that dissolve? :shrug:


besides, if we're basing it on hair alone, I'd probably go for Romney. :eyes:

[jillan]

213. Hair plugs or not -

I think he is damn sexy.

[Jennifer C]

305. Agreed

:toast:

[1corona4u]

306. LOL...

It'd be the first president I ever fan..t....never mind...;-)

[ZombieHorde]

31. Wow, Biden must be better than I thought.

Nobody seems to have anything real to spoil his name. This thread is pretty interesting to me.

Edit to add: I would recommend this thread but I do not have enough posts to use that option yet.

[NI4NI]

40. check Joe out!

all that he's asking for is a fair shake.....
And Welcome to DU!:hi:

[PatSeg]

43. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[murbley40]

I'll do it for you.

[murbley40]

84. deleted double post!! Sorry.

[WheelWalker]

308. Hope you've

got enough posts to recommend by now....and welcome to DU!

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

33. His name's too much like Bin Laden...

Sory, that's all I've got. I love Joe Biden.

[1corona4u]

36. I think you're thinking of ....

Obama...

[peoli]

34. Because he's too bald

[Think82]

35. crickets....

[Red Zelda]

37. Was at a holiday party at a BIG lawfirm tonight

Geez ... I was stunned how many people there supported Biden! The m$m sure has no clue. Joe was THE pick of the ritzy folk there. (Along with the open bar!)

[1corona4u]

39. That's nice to know...

how was the food? ;-)

[jillan]

214. You just made my day :)

[PatSeg]

44. Thanks Mike for this thread

I agree with what you said.

You know, when people first started posting their negatives about Biden, I would get upset. Now I look at all the candidates and realize, anyone could pick them apart (which they do frequently) and come up with as many, if not more cons.

Some people will not change their opinion of Biden, and that is fine. I'm sure I feel the same way about other candidates, though with less intensity. I prefer to focus my attention on Biden and don't have the time or motivation to go around DU slamming other Democratic candidates.

Also I might add, many of the criticisms of Biden come straight out of the media. Certain journalists put tags on him a long time ago and were repeated enough that people take them at face value. Any person's life and accomplishments deserve better than that.

So if people want to bring up the bankruptcy bill or Anita Hill, I am inclined to remember Bork, Bosnia, and Violence Against Women Act, all issues where Biden went against the odds on principle and he WON.

[harmonicon]

47. well, I've got nothing more against him than the other senators running

Still, I can't forgive voting for the IWR, and also voting to fund the illegal war.... oh, and Patriot Act? Do you like it? Sure, it's the same thing I say about Clinton and Edwards (and Obama, but he wasn't a senator for the 100% evil votes). Not only should these people have voted otherwise, they should have fought these things tooth and nail..... I think it's so sad that this is the best we can do... I'm not surprised the media supports these people, but I have no idea why Democrats do.... we can do better, and we have better options in the primary.

[Caseman]

48. Mmk, you're entitled to your opinions...

...However, I think you are wrong for deducting him for "funding the illegal war". Cutting the funds wouldn't solve anything: it would force a withdrawal without an Iraqi political solution (which Biden has drafted and passed) and would put our troops in danger. Biden doesn't believe in harming the men and women in the army just to make a "political statement" (plus, he got a son who has been deployed and will be again next year). So while Biden may be guilty of voting for the Iraq war (even if he was lied to by the Bush administration), I don't think you should penalize him for supporting our troops.

[harmonicon]

50. yes, we can disagree

I think that's the point of having this forum, which is nice. I don't think funding the war is "supporting our troops". I think getting them the hell out of there and back to their families would be real support. As for an Iraqi political solution, that's their business (the UN could help, I'm sure), not ours - they want us gone!

[Caseman]

52. Then I would like to continue my disagreement ;)

Shoving the problem on the Iraqis is not the way we handle our problems. We are one nation. We cannot blame one party and forget what we've done. We've aggressively invaded a country. We've installed a failed centralized government over a region of different sects, tribes, and cultures. And, more importantly, we've sat on our asses and have done nothing to try to fix it. Biden has a plan. The plan is a decentralized, federal government, similar to the successful arrangement in dealing with Bosnia. Biden wants to cut the number of casualties by sending V-hull vehicles to significantly reduce the damage the IEDs, the number one cause of fatalities in the country. If we 'cut and run', believe it or not, it will still affect us. What you'll basically get is a unstable Middle-east, where you have an open harbor for terrorists, you got the Kurds hostile to Turkey, you have a Pakistan government on near-collapse, and you have Iranian, Syrian, and Arabian influences radiating on the fading Iraqi borders. And if you don't care for the consequential political travesty and upheaval for the millions of the region, then another guarantee result would be a huge, huge spike in oil prices.

So, like it or not, it is our duty, for ourselves and for the world, to ensure an Iraqi political solution, and elect Senator Joe Biden of course ;)

[harmonicon]

118. it's not that I disagree on what the planned outcome is, but I don't think it will work

No one wants a foreign country or outside power to be dictating how their government should be structured or run. If you think back 5 years, we already changed the government in Iraq.... how has that plan turned out? People have to sort things out for themselves. If we interject our ideas into it, we're just imperialists, plain and simple. We fucked up the first minute we started this god-forsaken war. Every day we occupy that country, every time an American kills an Iraqi (justified or not), resentment against us grows.

[Think82]

54. Also, federlism is an option IN THE IRAQI CONSTITUTION

[gateley]

56. Kick!

[PatSeg]

65. We made Iraq our business when Bush invaded their country

Bush went to war recklessly and without a plan. It is imperative that we leave in an organized and carefully planned way. The repercussions of leaving abruptly will haunt us and the rest of the world for years. There are no simple or easy answers, that is why we need someone with sound judgment and experience leading us right now.

[harmonicon]

112. how many lives are worth the cost of leaving in "an organized and carefully planned way"?

Sure, we made it our business, but one country should never have the right to construct a government for another - never. Bush sucks, but would you think it was OK for another country to abolish our system of government and tell us who we ought to be running things? I don't accept Bush, but I'd take what we've got over foreigners telling us how to run the show.

[1corona4u]

113. Well, you're wrong.

We did it in Bosnia, and it is working.

[harmonicon]

116. working for who?

The Soviets did it in a whole lot of countries and it really "worked" for them too, for several decades - doesn't make it right. The form and structure of a country's government should only be determined by the people of that country. I don't see how you can argue against that - that you do makes me understand why foreigners really do hate America: Americans think they can tell the whole world how it ought to be run. So damn arrogant.

[1corona4u]

130. It's not worth arguing the point....

You obviously idolize Dk, so nothing anyone can say will be seen as a fact.

Toodles.

[harmonicon]

233. oh jeez....

[Think82]

222. again: FEDERALISM IS IN THE IRAQI CONSTITUTION

How many times do we have to repeat that?

[harmonicon]

232. it doesn't matter - how many times do I have to say that?

If it's in their constitution, that's great - good for them, but for that to be part of Biden's "plan" is silly. It just doesn't make sense that a plus for someone in our government would be telling another country how to run their government.

[Think82]

303. so in your view, we shouldn't try to help, or express our opinion. Also...

"Imperialism" implies taking over a country and taking it's resources. Suggesting a deal that can broker a peace between warring factions is NOT imperialism. Biden has advocated NO permanent bases.

Were you against intervention in Bosnia, or Rwanda?

[murbley40]

190. Well, I'll tell you

what I would like even less than another country telling us how to govern ,it would be to invade our country, help to tear it all to hell and then walk the hell away and say tough!

[PatSeg]

245. How many lives are worth the cost............

........ask the Iraqi people. It will be years before we know how many people died because of this arrogant blunder. All human life is sacred and Bush has pillaged and blundered their country in ways that bring to mind the Roman Empire.

[medicswife]

80. MRAP vehicles

"I don't think funding the war is "supporting our
troops". I think getting them the hell out of there and
back to their families would be real support."

Biden has been voting for funding to make sure the troops get
more vital MRAP vehicles.  My husband is currently deployed
for another 15 month tour in Iraq.  His Company just lost
three soldiers when their vehicle was hit by an IED.  If they
had been rolling in an MRAP, they would NOT have died.  The
armor on those has not failed once.  In my opinion, Biden is
not only the best qualified man for President, he also has
done the best job of fighting for our troops.  His plan to get
us out of Iraq is stellar and yes, the Iraqi Constitution does
call for a Federal State, and Biden's plan has been endorsed
by many Iraqi leaders.  Part of the reason that we are seeing
less casualties in Iraq is because some of the Iraqi citizens
are putting the principals of Biden's plan into action.  (I am
not saying that they have put HIS exact plan into action and
are crediting him for it!)  I'm saying that they are taking
responsibility for their own security instead of depending on
the central government to do it for them.  To me, this is a
resounding endorsement of the ideas in Biden's plan.  Whoever
our next President is, and by God, I hope it's Joe Biden, they
need to enforce his plan for Iraq.  

Oh, by the way, there are a lot of soldiers and military
spouses who are tired of the Bush administrations handling of
not only this war, but our Military, and many, many, many of
them are giving serious consideration to Senator Biden. 
Partly because his son will be deployed to Iraq next year, and
for many of the reasons I mentioned above.  

[youthere]

85. Welcome to Du medicswife!

and the reason you stated above is another reason I support Biden. Defunding is NOT supporting the troops. It's easy for people to say "pull the funding" but they forget that we still have men and women on the ground that need armor, and ammo. We all want them out of harms way, but we need to do everything we can to protect them while they are still there. I'm so sorry for the troops lost in your husband's company, and hope, despite your husband's deployment, you have a good holiday season. My husband was deployed in the first gulf war, and the seventeen months he was gone were the hardest I've ever faced. Take care, and I'll do everything I can at caucus in January to bring Biden in, and an end to this insanity.:hug:

[medicswife]

87. Thank You for the well wishes!

I appreciate the hug, trust me hugs from adults are few and far between these days, so even a virtual hug means a lot to me. Was your husband in the National Guard? Is that why he was gone for 17 months during Gulf War I? I'm prepared for another extension, I don't expect him home for 18 months. The last time he was gone it was supposed to be for a year, but he got extended to 15 months. You know another reason I support Biden, way back in 2003, it was him and John McCain that were saying we need more troops in Iraq to get the job done. He also obviously pays attention to the briefings that he gets and is able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The day before 9/11 he gave a speech to the National Press Club and when asked what the biggest threat to our country was, he said that it would probably come in the belly of an airplane. It took me awhile to figure out that the guy isn't psychic, he just trusted the intelligence reports that the Bush Administration chose to ignore. He was also right about Pakistan. I want someone who has the intelligence to predict with relative accuracy the threats that are facing America and the world and that also has the wisdom to know what to do.

[1corona4u]

88. You hit the nail right on the head.

Great post.

[medicswife]

93. Thanks

Actually, it was my husband who turned me on to Biden. I was trying to decide between Edwards and Obama and on one of our rare telephone conversations, he asked me to look into Biden. I was really skeptical at first, but when he told me that Biden takes the train from Delaware to D.C. instead of living in D.C., I got curious. Then, the more I looked into him, and listened to him during the debates, I became convinced that not only is he experienced and intelligent, he's got an awful lot of integrity. I get irritated by all of this "He's a plagiarizer." bologna. He was cleared of those charges, and if that is the only dirt that people can dig up on him, than he will be in a very, very good place to take on any and all Republican contenders. I have this to say to people who want to say he is without integrity: What a person does when they have made a mistake (i.e. apologize and bow out of the Presidential race), says more about what kind of moral compass they have than anything else. Imagine if George Bush possessed 1/10 the humility that Biden does.

[harmonicon]

114. sorry, that's really rough - thank god your husband's ok(ish at least)

I do understand that senators such as Biden have their reasons to vote for war funding, but the fact remains that no one would be getting hurt and killed by Iraqi bombs if they weren't in Iraq.

[medicswife]

119. thanks for the wishes for my husband and I

I appreciate them. Yeah, ok(ish) is sort of putting it mildly, considering he's had to work on 6 year old Iraqi kids besides seeing his comrades blown to smithereens. Trust me, I know that if we weren't in Iraq, no one would be getting blown up. But, you don't seem to be taking our reputation in the World into consideration here. We already look like total buffoons for going into Iraq. The Iraqi's infrastructure is in worse shape now than it was when we invaded. There is an epidemic of cholera because there is not clean drinking water. They have less electricity now than they did before we invaded. If we up and leave without taking steps to insure stability, we are going to lose even more credibility on the World Stage. At least Biden's reasons for voting are above board and he's taking the safety of our troops very seriously. He refers to our responsibility to our troops as "sacred". This lights my fire!!!!!

[harmonicon]

124. I have no disagreements with his motivations

I think he really wants what's best for our country, and people who agree with him should get out there and give him their support! Now, both of these wars were before my time, so I can only give an opinion on what I've seen in my life: in the Korean war, there was at least some resolution to the conflict, but North Korea is totally screwed up for it. A division did not work in that case. I know it's more extreme a division than the suggested federalism in Iraq, but it's something we have to go on. In Vietnam, we did just up and leave. Now we have good relations with the country and its' people.

[murbley40]

193. Who started this war in Iraq?

[coalition_unwilling]

199. Saddam did (sarcasm) -n/t

[Think82]

221. medicswife, welcome! Please post this often!

Your wise words and credibility on this issue go a long way on this board! Thank you for supporting Joe!

[medicswife]

291. I didn't choose Joe as my candidate lightly

When my husband first started telling me about Biden, I pretty much laughed in his face. Now, he thinks it's hilarious that I've, as he puts it, "jumped head first onto the Biden Bandwagon". I did a lot of research and paid very close attention before deciding that my hubby was right, though. More than anything, it has been Biden's steadfast refusal to compromise the safety of men like my husband for political gain. Sure, I wish that the Senate was showing more backbone and refusing to send the President bills that don't have time tables in them, but Biden is wise enough to know that any bill like that is going to be vetoed, the President is going to throw a very public temper tantrum and the Dems won't have enough votes to override the veto. So, he has been making it a point to add more life saving equipment to the appropriations bills. This speaks to my heart. Biden is the only candidate that I have seen talk about our obligation to protect every single soldier, airman, marine or sailor that is currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has stated that as long as there is one single American offering up their service for our country it is our responsibility to make sure that they have the equipment that they need to keep them as safe as possible.

[PatSeg]

246. Thank you for this

Coming from someone who is directly affected by all this, it really carries a lot of weight with me.

[missTheBigDog]

62. I really like Biden too...

and I think he's really presidential. I just can't get over his vote on Iraq in 2002. He really should have known the consequences of this vote. Heck, even Edwards has repeatedly apologized for his yes vote.

[1corona4u]

63. And so has Joe...

If you are touting Edwards, you must support him. If you support him, then apparently, you have "gotten over HIS vote".

Joe Biden;


"It was a mistake," Biden says. "I regret my vote. I regret not realizing how incompetent (the Bush administration) would be. The president did not level with us. And if I had known it, I would never have voted to give him that authority in the first place."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0207/2828.html

[missTheBigDog]

66. Thanks

I didn't know about that quote. I do support Edwards, but I wouldn't mind if either one of them gained some momentum.

[paulk]

64. Biden would make a good President

he just doesn't seem to be getting any traction with the voters. Part of the reason is that the MSM has decided that he isn't going to get that traction. He doesn't fit into their plans. What they want is a horserace between a white woman and a black man and all their resources are going toward pushing things in that direction.

Biden will need a top three finish in Iowa to get the MSM to notice him. It could happen.

[SaveElmer]

75. I have no problem with Joe Biden...nt

[Zueda]

78. Great respect for Biden...

not sure really why he doesn't pick up traction. My guess is he kinda comes across as 'angry'.... sort of like the old man in so many neighborhoods that yells at the kids to "Get off my lawn!".

...however I would not mind too much at all if he somehow managed to pull the nod out of the hat.

[youthere]

81. LOL!

I get that from Dodd..I always feel like he's yelling at me.

[1corona4u]

86. Yeah, ditto....

Joe's just a passionate person. I am too, perhaps that's why I don't see him as "angry".

[PatSeg]

247. I see righteous indignation

over issues that have infuriated us all for so long, and finally someone is speaking for us.

[murbley40]

90. I don't see this .

I think he may have more support than is realized .

[1corona4u]

98. Yeah, I think there's a reality check coming real soon.....

[MNDemNY]

92. Because he couldn't be troubled to return to DC to defend our civil rights.

[1corona4u]

97. Which is not going to be addressed until January now...

so you might want to wait for the other shoe to drop.

[MNDemNY]

101. No thank you. He, HRC, and BHO should have been there. Shows their priorities.

[1corona4u]

104. Whatever...

I guess him being the first one to confront Bush about the tapes, and publicly forcing it into the public arena, and demanding a independent counsel, doesn't matter.


I get really sick of the duplicity/hypocrisy on this board. And it may come as a surprise to you, but this board, and all of it's members will not be the ones responsible for the outcome of the caucuses, or the election.


Deal with it.

[MNDemNY]

105. Idiotic statement...Deal with it.

[1corona4u]

107. Factual statement.

Deal with it yourself.

[Stop Cornyn]

95. Top 5: Votes for 2005 Bankruptcy Bill, Votes for Bad Bush-Appointee Judges, Racially Awkward Gaffes,

History of Wishy-Washy Support for Abortion Rights, Too Little Support and Too Underfunded to Win Nomination.

I like Joe as a Secretary of State.

[1corona4u]

96. Yawwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnn.....

[Stop Cornyn]

120. Sorry if the discussion of Biden makes you sleepy. Many people feel that way about Biden.

[1corona4u]

137. Your predictible BS drivel makes me sleepy...

and is quite boring.

[PatSeg]

248. I've HAVE heard these comments from many people, but

actually it is not a big issue for the majority of voters right now. I have certainly heard far worse about other candidates.

Two members of my family filed for bankruptcy and they are avid supporters of Joe Biden. So I guess it is an individual perspective.

[Stop Cornyn]

293. If this is not a big issue, then why do so many people mention it? If this hasn't cost Biden support

what has?

[1corona4u]

294. Well, I don't know who you are addressing...

because this thread has long ago become hard to follow. But I would like to weigh in.

If this has cost Joe votes, then so be it. He did it for the right reasons, not the ones people accuse him of on DU. Joe Biden has never been considered a liar, so I trust his statements are factual. But, whether or not he did lose votes, it's no different than the other candidates, and the issues we all have with them, that will cost them our votes.

Not everyone agrees that all of the issues in this thread are major issues, at all. Others consider them, but see the bigger picture. There is no perfect candidate, not Edwards, not Clinton, and definitely not Obama, although that's what he wants people to think.

Personally, I am more open minded when it comes to issues people see as problematic. Probably because I'm an Independent. I see the good and the bad. One the BK bill, perhaps because it now benefits my best friend, I can see the need for it. There were 75 other senators who voted for it as well, and it was in the works for 10 years. It's not Biden's bill. John Edwards signed it too in 2001. Obama voted against it in 2005, but then voted against having an interest cap set below 30%. There was a very interesting read on that in Harper's mag. He sided with the industry, not the consumer. Yet, he gets no flack about it.

I tend to look at both sides before making a decision. Something I see missing in some of the democrats on this board. They stick to their staunch ideas, and are so totally convinced that they are right, that they refuse to accept facts as facts, even though they(facts)have been posted repeatedly. People don't want to change their minds. They want to continue to find something wrong with Joe. So be it.



I'm really done with this thread, as it's become a waste of time, and energy, replying to people who really don't care anyway.

[Stop Cornyn]

296. When you don't know who someone is addressing, the upper right corner says "Response to Reply #__"

so you can figure it out.

[Tashca]

148. Good point

I love it when people point out what a great Secretary of State Joe would make. I don't think there is anyone even close to his credentials and expertise in foreign relations.
My Question to you......Why would you not want a person of this caliber as President??? Wouldn't that make more sense??
It makes sense to me that would qualify him as the best choice. I think everyone knows that we have much work to do to repair our badly damaged image in the world.

[Tejanocrat]

228. Nail Meets Head

[WillTheGoober]

99. Biden is good ...

I like Joe Biden a lot.
He has spent most of his life serving the American people and knows how to get things through in the Senate.

Unfortunately -- Joe isn't the best at controlling himself. He often says things that are taken the wrong way and he has a quick, sharp wit that isn't necessarily an asset.

In my opinion, Joe makes the perfect running mate. He is a great attack dog and can really say anything he wants as VP.

Clinton/Biden 2008? Maybe.

W.

[murbley40]

102. Nope!

If not President,he is more valuble as Chairman of the Foriegn Relations Committee and as my Senator.

[1corona4u]

106. I think he is very good at controling himself...

and as you pointed out, it's the way his comments are taken that's the problem. Not what he actually said/meant. I disagree with the wit comment. It would be refreshing to actually have a president that IS funny, as opposed to one that *THINKS* he's funny.

[WillTheGoober]

126. No Question ...

Biden's humor is great.
But -- realistically, I think it hurts him in a general election setting.

He's a good guy... and I think he'll do better in the primary than most expect; but he is just too loose a cannon to win, in my opinion.

;)

[1corona4u]

132. I disagree..

who better to blast away at the republicans. John's going to look like a 3rd grader.(probably while flipping his tounge, and batting his eye lids, and probably some eye rolling too....) Hillary will be crucified, and Obama will be left with Uhhhhhh...and Uhhhhhh, and Uhhhhh...hence the reason he's referred to as Uh-bama.

[PatSeg]

250. You make an excellent point

The media is always watching him, not for his accomplishment, but for what mistake they can perceived and inflate out of proportion. Everyone makes gaffes (unless they stay to the script), but they aren't raked over the coals every time they open their mouth. Biden made some enemies with some of the press long ago and many of them still go after him, because they think it makes a good story.

Oh, and I love his wit!

[Faryn Balyncd]

100. Biden IS our best shot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Jennifer C]

117. Agreed!

Personally I believe a Biden-Obama ticket would win in a LANDSLIDE.

[medicswife]

122. Amen

That is right on!

[eallen]

103. Biden might make a good president, but he makes a lousy candidate.

On the campaign trail, he has too often shot himself in the foot. In my mind, that doesn't lessen the probability that he would make a fine president. Unfortunately, it absolutely destroys the possibility of him achieving that.

:hippie:

[1corona4u]

108. Facts & links, please....

If he has shot himself in the foot, on the campaign trail, surely there's a record of it.

[murbley40]

110. I do not see

Where he has "shot himself in the foot" any more than the rest and not as serious in my view as some of the others.

[1corona4u]

115. You know as well as I do that it was a knee jerk reaction....

and typical of the usual mindless, factless drivel spewed on here daily about Biden.

[murbley40]

123. Sure.

[PatSeg]

251. I've watched some of his Iowan events and he is an

excellent candidate. He really connects with voters, but he doesn't get the media that the front-runners get.

[Steely_Dan]

121. Why I Support Joe Biden

Why I Support Joe Biden

With only two weeks remaining until the opening salvo in the race to the White House, I remain cautiously optimistic about the possibility that Senator Joe Biden will make a major move solidifying his position as a true contender. My optimism is based less on wishful thinking and more on my faith in the rational side of the electorate, past results not withstanding. Of course, one could say that the difference between “wishful thinking” and “faith” is but a whisper.

I arrived at my support for Senator Biden only after meticulously studying all of the candidates to include their policies, past voting records, leadership skills, experience and their ability to bridge the gap between parties in legislating on behalf of the American people. I also wanted someone that understood the importance of our Constitution and Bill of Rights which have been largely ignored over the past seven years.

The current Administration, through their incompetence and willful disregard for the Constitution, will leave behind a morass of issues that will require immediate attention. In addition, an obvious lack of effective leadership and a misguided agenda, has left our ship of state scraping the rocks on the shore of a broken democracy.

While the list of our national priorities are long and demand immediate attention, I cannot think of a single more important issue than foreign affairs. We live more and more in a global community, a global neighborhood where we have let our dog crap on the lawns of other countries. We have become the bully and are seen as the greatest threat to global security by those that once sang our praises.

There is no other candidate running for the Oval Office that has more experience in foreign affairs than does Joe Biden. He understands the critical balance that must be achieved between being tough and utilizing carrots and sticks to accomplish both the security for our nation and indeed, the world. Most world leaders respect Joe Biden for his straight talk and ability to see the big picture. The other candidates, not so much.

Mr. Biden is not only the most qualified candidate when it comes to foreign affairs, he is also championed some of the most effective domestic legislation in the past 30 years. In addition, he has accomplished this by crossing the aisle, by bridging the great abyss that has only gotten wider in the past seven years. Mr. Biden, understands that reasonable men can disagree. He also understands that nothing can be accomplished without bringing those who may disagree with you on board to achieve a common goal. This does not mean that he will fold or give in to the opposition. Rather, it means that through his dynamic leadership skills, he will stand strong on behalf of the American people by reinforcing our Democratic principles. I know this, because he has demonstrated it over and over again throughout his 35 year tenure in the Senate.

Sometimes we have to reach bottom before we can begin the long climb back to sanity. As devastating as the current Administration has been to our country, it has created an opportunity unlike anything we have seen since the Great Depression. When I think of all of the candidates, their experience, leadership skills, ability to nurture bipartisanship for the common good, I consistently arrive at Joe Biden as the candidate of choice.

These are not times for the faint of heart. Americans that believe in the importance of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights have had the scare of a lifetime. Never have we been this close to losing what is most precious to us...our freedom, our rights, our compassion and indeed, our soul. This is no time for the inexperienced, the weak or those that would be intimidated. Joe Biden cannot be intimidated.

In the past seven years we have witnessed a President who is absent of any humility or compassion. He is incapable or unwilling to admit when he is wrong. This is not only a professional flaw, it demonstrates a fundamental character flaw that we can no longer afford to have in the White House.

Joe Biden has experienced both success and failures as well as personal tragedies. All of these experiences have made him humble, yet strong. It is this wealth of life experience that has prepared him for this moment in history and has given us an opportunity of a lifetime.

I am closer to my death than I am my birth. My time on this good earth will draw to a close. I’m tired of the infighting, the bickering and the mudslinging. We are long past the point where we can afford to get this wrong. I want to spend my remaining years watching America return to its previous glory...a country that understands its responsibility to the rest of the world, a country of accountability from both its leaders and its people, a country that lives by its Constitution and Bill of Rights, a country of compassion and understanding.

When people look back years from now on this time in our history. What will they say? Will they say we spent our time squabbling over trivial matters? Will they say we elected a President that did not have the requisite experience or that couldn’t get anything done because they arrived with too much baggage? Or will they thank us for our clear thinking and rational approach to the immense problems we face.

I trust Joe Biden. Not because he has been perfect, but because he has been honest. I admire Joe Biden, not because he is an excellent US Senator, but because he is an excellent man. I support Joe Biden not to blaze new trails in Presidential politics, but to return our country to rational leadership for the benefit of all.

I am an American. And I support Joe Biden.

[murbley40]

125. Excellent!!

My main reason for continuing to support him for a lot of years is TRUST. And I truly trust him.
As I have said many times again and again, I did not just discover him, I have followed and supported him for a very long time. In my family if he appears on Tv or in the newspaper, everyone contacts everyone else to make sure we all know it and see or read about him. Every member of my family got their very own copy of Joe's book "Promises to Keep". If you have not read it, get it and read it. You will see the man he is and how he became that man.:patriot:

[Steely_Dan]

131. Thanks...n/t

[PatSeg]

252. That was stunning

I don't know how many more presidents I will see in my lifetime, but I know what direction I'd like to see this country move for my children and grandchildren, and hell, for the sake of humanity.

[speedoo]

127. Richardson, Biden and Dodd are the three most qualified candidates.

And I don't think it's even remotely close.

I'd love to see one of them break through in an early primary, but it's very unlikely.

The good news is, all three are likely to be players in the party for a while.

[truebrit71]

128. MBNA - Bankruptcy Bill

I love his passion, and his speechifying is very entertaining, but he is to entrenched inside the Beltway for my own personal comfort level...

[1corona4u]

133. You should actually read the thread before you post things

that have already been negated.

[NI4NI]

143. Biden doesn't live in DC, never has

What's your meaning of "entrenched inside the Beltway"?
He's never owned or rented a home there, and for 36 years he has commuted 250 miles daily from his home to DC on Amtrak; And it is commonplace for Delawareans to see and chat with Joe when he's out and about or grocery shopping on weekends.

[truebrit71]

164. The "entrenched inside the Beltway" mentality...

...that and the MBNA 'sponsored' BK bill temper my enthusiasm for him...

[redqueen]

129. His treament of Anita Hill... the Bankruptcy Bill...

those are the standouts for me.

[1corona4u]

134. Same for you...

You should actually read the thread before you post things
that have already been negated.

[redqueen]

135. Just because you think that they've been negated,

doesn't mean they've been negated.

What is it exactly that you think has been negated, anyway?

Did he not vote for that awful bill?

[1corona4u]

136. You're a waste of time....

among other things....read the damn thread. There is factual data in it. if you choose to ignore the facts, then that's your problem.

[redqueen]

138. Might wanna change up and double up on those meds there...

:wtf:

[1corona4u]

140. And you might want to get a life.

[redqueen]

141. I can't believe you're over 50.

Wow... just wow.

[1corona4u]

142. Leave me alone.

[redqueen]

145. You responded to me, genius.

:eyes:

[rucky]

146. I won't defend those, but...

the net sum of his extensive record of achievements - he's done a ton more good than harm.

I like him because of what he's accomplished (violence against women, Iraq, civil rights record, etc), and he's shown ability to be an effective problem-solver.

[redqueen]

147. Oh yeah... I'm not saying he's the worst candidate by any means... FAR from it.

But the OP asked for negatives, and those are the ones that stick out for me.

I like him much better than Clinton or Obama, that's for damn sure.

[Steely_Dan]

149. Sorry that...

things get so out of control. I appreciate the differences in our view towards Biden. I'm curious who you support. Would that be Kucinich? Just curious.

-P

[redqueen]

150. Yup... you guessed it.

[Steely_Dan]

152. Would You Take The Time...

to tell me why Kucinich is preferable?

-P

[redqueen]

154. Well... IMO...

his outspoken stances against the sham "war on drugs", the Patriot Act, the IWR, etc... just put him a class by himself. Also he's demonstrated the lengths he is willing to go to in order to protect the public interest (sacrificed career to save Muny Light).

I know that many nasty ugly disgusting wastes of resources here would call him the "loser class" but that's their slime to wallow in.

[Steely_Dan]

155. Would You Agree That...

Kucinich is "left" of the other candidates?

-P

[redqueen]

157. Definitely.

[Steely_Dan]

159. So, Then I Assume...

you are typically more left then your fellow Dems. Would that be true?

-P

[redqueen]

162. Correct again.

[Steely_Dan]

165. One More Question...

Would you define you or Kicinich as "extreme" or far left?

-P

[redqueen]

167. Hardly.

LaRouche would be a good example of extreme left.

[Steely_Dan]

170. Okay...So, this is where we will part company.

I must say (and I'm sure that you are already aware) that many people think of Kucinich as far left or even extreme. Rightly or wrongly, this is the impression that many of us have of him.

As I have stated many times, I believe Kucinich is the heart and soul of our party...sort of the conscience of our party. For this, he should be highly admired and respected. I hardly know a Dem that does not agree with many of his positions with regards to the Constitution, the war and helping the poor.

Having said this, I try to understand where we find ourselves now. The damage that has been done by the current Administration is extreme. There are people out there that would vote for a Republican regardless of what they do. I have to ask myself what is "realistically" achievable in the next four years and beyond.

It is my opinion that the pendulum swings slowly. I honestly believe that those that support Kucinich want the pendulum to automatically swing in their direction or to magically appear on the other side. I simply do not think that this is possible. Because of this, I do not think that Kucinich can be effective in the current political atmosphere. We all wish that we were nearer to where Kucinich stands. It is not a matter of Kucinich being right or wrong. It is more a matter of the reality on the ground. Would it be that the pendulum were closer to the center or somewhat to the left, it might indeed be a time for a Kucinich. It simply isn't the case.

I know the passion that people have for Kucinich. And the passion is well-placed. We simply disagree that a Kucinich could be an effective leader in these trying times.

-P

[redqueen]

171. I've heard the same thing from others countless times.

[Steely_Dan]

172. So, Do You Want to Comment...

or refute anything in my post? Or are you in agreement but find it impossible to vote against your convictions? Either way is fine. Just saying that you have heard it countless times before doesn't really say anything. And that's fine too.

-P

[redqueen]

174. I'm not in agreement, no.

I just didn't want to have the same circular argument again so I just thought I'd acknowledge your comment.

But if you want to know, I think Kucinich is only successfully portrayed as "extreme left" because the whore media dominates... and most dems won't bother refuting the idea that his ideas are "extreme left". IMO if he was the candidate, he'd win.

[Steely_Dan]

176. Thanks for your response...

I don't want you to have to argue in circles either. I guess I wouldn't want to waste your time. Typically circular arguments are really arguments that get to a point where the two parties disagree.

I would assume that you think I have been duped by the "whore media." That I cannot see through their slant(s) or evaluate Kucinich in an objective way. I am a C-Span addict and have seen Kucinich in action. I don't simply watch the news or believe everything I read or are exposed to. I would like to think that I'm smarter than that...but maybe not.

In that you have argued against my points on "countless" occasions in other threads, it appears that I am not the only one who believes the way I do about Kucinich. But this, you already know.

I would leave you with this thought. While it can be extremely difficult, one should never let their passion over-ride their reason.

Great discussion...thanks.

-P

[redqueen]

177. I never said you've been duped.

I was talking about the electorate at large.

Do you personally think he's "extreme far left"? Or is it your opinion that since most do, he's got no chance?

No need to get defensive or say that I'm letting my passion override my reason.

[Steely_Dan]

179. Okay...

If I'm not mistaken, you stated that Dems think that DK is extreme left due to the "whore media." Because I think (as I stated in an earlier post) that DK is extreme (for our time), that implies that I am one of the ones duped by the "whore media." Am I missing something here?

If I were being defensive, I would simply spout out something short and end with an exasperated "Jesus Christ."

I can tell (I think I can tell), that you are getting a little frustrated and raising this to another level. So, perhaps we can just end it here.

Thanks again.

-P

[redqueen]

181. You misread.

I did not say that Dems think that DK is extreme left due to blah blah blah...

Also, you did not state that you think DK is extreme. In fact, you said you thought he was the "heart and soul" of the party. You might wanna sort out your thoughts on that. ("As I have stated many times, I believe Kucinich is the heart and soul of our party...sort of the conscience of our party. For this, he should be highly admired and respected. I hardly know a Dem that does not agree with many of his positions with regards to the Constitution, the war and helping the poor." - was that you saying you think he's extreme left? maybe I just misread...)

I notice that you are castigating me for saying that in exasperation after you said I shouldn't let my passion override my reason, but allowing your fellow Biden supporter's shit to stand unmentioned. Interesting.

[Steely_Dan]

187. Correction...

I came to your defense at the very beginning of our little thread. In doing so, I have received grief from my fellow Biden supporters. I don't like getting grief from my friends because I try to calm the waters in the interest of getting along. Please refer to Post #149

Post 174, you state: But if you want to know, I think Kucinich is only successfully portrayed as "extreme left" because the whore media dominates... and most dems won't bother refuting the idea that his ideas are "extreme left". IMO if he was the candidate, he'd win.

Here you seem to be saying (or at least implying) that the Dems do not come to DK's defense. Is this because they are duped as well. That's how I saw it.

Having your passion over-ride your reason is common and not anything that is a bad thing. There are times when our passion allows us to do demonstrate a kind of courage we would not normally have. I was just saying that we (all of us) need to check with our head as much as we do our heart. That in the end, often our reason guides us better than our heart. No put down there, believe me.

-P

[redqueen]

189. No, I didn't say that they don't come to his defense because they've been duped.

I can't read minds... I don't know why. I'm sure there are as many reasons as there are Dems who don't refute the ridiculous idea.

Sorry if I was defensive about the passion / reason comment.

[Steely_Dan]

191. No problem...

the written word can be so easily misunderstood...no voice inflection...body language. Sometimes, it's just a guessing game...LOL

Good luck with your candidate. I have great respect for him.

-P

[redqueen]

198. Yes, this medium is a great one for misunderstandings.

And this time of year is not the best for calm, cool reasoning.


Best of luck with yours as well... he's one of our best candidates, no doubt.

[rucky]

195. I'm probably farther left than Kucinich.

and voted for him last time. But my personal politics is not why I'm for Biden.

I think Kucinich has the best vision of the world, but we're stuck with the reality Bushco has left us, and Biden is best equipped to lead us through it. Also, I've come to value achievements over ideas when I pick a President.

[Steely_Dan]

206. Sounds like you are thinking like I am...

on this. I just think we are in a situation that needs the grit of a Joe Biden.

-P

[1corona4u]

151. Out of control?

You're apologizing to someone who never has a nice thing to say about Biden? Never has ANYTHING factual to add, or anything of value, and you're apologizing?


I will NEVER apologize for posting the facts, or disupting the lies that are told on this board in regards to Biden. NEVER. No one else should either.

[Steely_Dan]

153. I'm Just Saying...

that I regret a civil discussion cannot take place. No worries.

-P

[1corona4u]

156. If it's one thing I have come to learn about this board it is...

that the haters don't care about discussion. Civil or otherwise. They don't care about facts. That's why their post are generally 1 sentance. Short, unfounded jabs. Their post are meant to insite, rather than discuss.

[truebrit71]

180. "insite"...what in the wide world of sports does THAT mean?

...did you plagiarize it from someone else like Joe Kinnock Biden...??

[redqueen]

182. You missed "sentance"

Sorry, couldn't resist. :evilgrin:

[1corona4u]

185. It was a typo..

INCITE.

PS. Some of us are actually doing other things while we are on this board. PARDON the fuck out of me for a couple of typos.

I'll make sure to run spell check in the future so as not to offend. And, by the way, isn't it against the rules to point out spelling errors?

I think it is.

Petty bullshit.

[1corona4u]

186. Professional Board Clears Biden In Two Allegations of Plagiarism

Professional Board Clears Biden In Two Allegations of Plagiarism
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Del.icio.usDiggFacebookNewsvinePermalinkAP
Published: May 29, 1989
LEAD: Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. was cleared of allegations that he committed plagiarism in law school by a panel under the authority of the Delaware Supreme Court, The News Journal reported today.

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. was cleared of allegations that he committed plagiarism in law school by a panel under the authority of the Delaware Supreme Court, The News Journal reported today.

The Wilmington newspaper also said Mr. Biden has received a clean bill of health from his doctor after two life-threatening brain aneurysms in 1988.

The Delaware Democrat withdrew from the 1988 Presidential campaign after accusations that he had quoted the British Labor Party leader, Neil Kinnock, without attribution and had plagiarized an article while attending Syracuse University's law school.

Mr. Biden called his failure to attribute the quotes to Mr. Kinnock an oversight.

The alleged law school plagiarism involved an essay Mr. Biden wrote in 1965 for an introductory class on legal methodology. 'A Personal Vindication'

The Senator ended his Presidential campaign Sept. 23, 1987, and, because the allegations involved his standing as a lawyer, he notified the state Supreme Court about them later that year.

The court's Board on Professional Responsibility, consisting of lawyers and non-lawyers, ruled on Dec. 21, 1987, that Mr. Biden had not violated any rules.

Mr. Biden said he decided not to publicize the ruling, which was confidential. ''I guess I had in the back of my mind . . . this was more of a personal vindication than a political one,'' he said.

But he added that he had decided to divulge the ruling because he expected ''somebody would go back someday and check. And I knew there was a hard record there.''

L. Susan Faw, independent disciplinary counsel for the board, confirmed that the ruling had cleared Mr. Biden.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE1DD1230F93AA15756C0A96F948260

[robbedvoter]

197. "Mr. Biden called his failure to attribute the quotes to Mr. Kinnock an oversight. "

From the article you posted.
"What 16 words?"

[1corona4u]

203. Here are both of the references...

Kinnock;

Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Why is Glenys the first woman in her family in a thousand generations to be able to get to university?

Was it because our predecessors were thick? Does anybody really think that they didn't get what we had because they didn't have the talent or the strength or the endurance or the commitment? Of course not. It was because there was no platform upon which they could stand.



Biden;

I started thinking as I was coming over here, why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go to a university? Why is it that my wife who is sitting out there in the audience is the first in her family to ever go to college?

Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? . . . No, it's not because they weren't as smart. It's not because they didn't work as hard. It's because they didn't have a platform upon which to stand . . .



Personally, I would have never made the connection to Kinnock, but that's just me....

[robbedvoter]

263. Interesting - so they aren't actual quotes but borrowed, adapted style

If THAT is not plagiarism, I don't know what is. And yeah, I noticed the similarity - but I am not wearing pink blinders.

[youthere]

184. I know you feel strongly about Biden..

you know I do too, but I can't let you refer to redqueen as a "hater". I have followed her posts for a long time on DU and I respect her greatly. Each of us has a principled line that we do not cross, and for her it was Biden's vote on the bankruptcy bill. It doesn't matter what the reasoning was, that's her principled line and I respect that.
No one can accuse redqueen of ignoring facts,I've seen her go back to her own candidate's campaign and demand accountability.
I love your passion for our candidate 1corona4u, and I know you've grown frustrated as I have with those that appear on every Biden thread, just to bash him and throw out false attacks, but that is not redqueen. You and she may disagree on candidates, but you can always count on her for a straight forward, honest answer (kind of like Joe! LOL!)

[PatSeg]

254. Actually, that was border-line civil

We can communicate and still disagree. You did that very well. Thanks.

[NI4NI]

168. please let me add another piece of Joe's legislation to your list

The Hatch-Biden Act that made it mandatory for pedophiles and sexual offenders to register their location after release from prison or relocating into a new neighborhood. Because I'm in constant contact on a daily basis with different pre-school children centers I see the photos/data notifications displayed on bulletin boards every place I go. Thanks again, Joe!

[Steely_Dan]

173. Yeah...

We sort of forgotten about that one. Good call.

-P

[medicswife]

175. Good point!

As mother to four little ones, I am very, very grateful for that legislation.

[NI4NI]

194. Welcome to DU

and my unlimited thank you's and thoughts for your family's sacrifice.:patriot:

[medicswife]

201. much appreciated

And I hope you have a happy holiday season as well!

Be safe!

Mary

[coalition_unwilling]

204. Of course the Hatch-Biden act does brush up against and crosses over the

'double-jeopardy' clause of the U.S. Constitution, i.e., not being tried and punished more than once for the same offense. But maybe that's just a fine point for purists like me. I am against various state 'three-strikes' provisions for the same reason, violation of the double-jeopardy clause.

If a peodphile and\or sexual offender has completed his or her sentence, shouldn't that be it? (If society is concerned with the possibility of recidivism, make the sentences longer.) Jeesh, I'm starting to sound like a Ron Paul supporter and I really support Kucinich first and Obama second.

[medicswife]

208. Do you have little kids?

Hey, I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt or anything, and I'm pretty much a strict Constitutionalist, but I think that this is one instance where I think that the rights of children have to trump the rights of the offender. When we got stationed in Oklahoma, one of the first things that we did was check the sex offender registry because we wanted to make sure that we didn't buy or rent a home in close proximity to any pedophiles. Because of the registry, we were able to choose a home in a community that only had one registered offender instead of three or four. We have four little kids. They are 7,5, 3, and 2 years old. Pedophiles are my worst nightmare. Seriously, that scares me more than my husband getting killed in Iraq, and I betcha a million dollars he'd say the same thing. These are just different times that we live in and I think that parents need tools like these to help keep their kids safe.

[coalition_unwilling]

218. I do not. And I suppose if this were the only weakening of

Constitutional provisions, I would not have mentioned it. It's the steady drip-drip-drip weakening of various consitutional protections and principles that concerns me. Double jeopardy, habeas corpus, lawyer-client privilege (wiretapping probably violated this on multiple occasions and former Atty General Ashcroft announced that conversations between attorneys and clients would be monitored if clients were detained during War on Terra), self-incrimination, torture, ad infinitum. If Biden-Hatch were the only little chipping away at the Constituion, I wouldn't raise the issue. But in the larger context . . .

[medicswife]

219. Those other things that you

mention are a lot more serious than this. I'd say that this is one of if not the only instance in which I say the rights of the populace are more important than the rights of the individual.

[coalition_unwilling]

225. Not that I feel any sympathy for pedophiles per se, but in California

(Inland Empire) the effect of the law has gotten so ridiculous at times that pedophiles and sex offenders who have served their time get hounded from one residence to another (presumably in perpetuity) by apartment managers, outraged citizens, homegrown vigilantes, etc. All well and good, if society's intention was a life sentence. But if that was the intention, then the offender should have been sentenced to life in the first place.

I think this is a case of the "law of unintended consequences" taking full effect. It may also encourage a perverse degree of non-compliance among released pedophiles and sex offenders who wish to avoid facing harassment when they comply.

[medicswife]

292. I don't think that I

would ever harass a registered offender. But, I would, and did in the past, show their photo to my children, showed them where said offender lived, and told them to stay away from that house. They also knew that if they were ever approached by that person they were to run and scream.

[bdamomma]

178. you notice that Biden is not surrounded by celebrities.

he doesn't need props. Just observing.

[thesquanderer]

202. A bunch of things turn me off to Biden

There are some things I like about Biden, and have liked what he's said in some of the debates, but...

The votes. Someone said not to dismiss him because of one vote (the bankruptcy bill), fine. He also voted the wrong way on the bill giving Bush the authorization to invade Iraq. (Edwards apologized, Hillary defends, I don't know what Biden's response has been... but regardless, he did vote the wrong way on that one.) Worse, he voted for the "PATRIOT" act. BOTH times. These are a lot of significant, bad votes.

Far less importantly, but just to point out to the defenders, the Kinnock plagiarism defense of "I just happened to forget to attribute it that day" doesn't wash. A BBC description of the event gives it a little more perspective:

---
in 1987, he was publicly humiliated after it was alleged he had pilfered parts of a speech from the then British opposition leader, Neil Kinnock.
A Biden speech had gone: "I started thinking as I was coming over here, why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go to a university? Why is it that my wife who is sitting out there in the audience is the first in her family to ever go to college?"

All of which sounds eerily similar to Neil Kinnock's very public musing: "Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Why is Glenys the first woman in her family in a thousand generations to be able to get to university?""
---

Assuming the BBC report is accurate, it no longer sounds like he simply accidentally left out an attribution. I mean, it wasn't a general comment, he put it in the first person. Believe me, Kinnock never said he wondered why Biden was the first of his family to go to a university. Plus Joe supposedly just thought of it on the way to giving the speech. Uh huh. So how can he claim he properly attributed it previously?

Not that it's the worst thing in the world, it's just political rhetoric anyway. But what bothers me more than gaffes is disingenuous explanations of gaffes.

Then there was more clumsy stuff, like how you have to have an Indian accent in a Seven-Eleven. (Which wasapparently followed by another awkward and unbelievable explanation.)

Or his kiss-up to Alberto Gonzales during his confirmation hearings ("I like you, you're the real deal") which kinda gave me the creeps.

Or his praising of Obama, saying "you've got the first mainstream African-American, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. It's storybook, man." That may win the award for most land mines in a single sentence.

So there's plenty that makes me feel a little uneasy about him.

But mostly, it's the big votes I don't agree with.

[medicswife]

205. as to the Kinnock quotes

Biden used those quotes in most every stump speech that he gave in Iowa that year. He always attributed Kinnock until the time he neglected to do so at the Iowa State Fair. There is video floating around that shows him giving credit where credit is due.

Did you watch the PBS "debates" (quotes because they were boring and not debates)? The moderator asked Biden about those statements and he was backed up as being strong on civil rights and not in any way racist. Every single other candidate on that stage said "Here, Here!" and applauded Biden's record on civil rights. Again, it's the media taking something that they think might be "hot" and controversial and playing it to death in order to try to get ratings.

But, sure, I think that you are going to be hard pressed to find one single candidate who has never, ever done anything that doesn't sit right with you. For as long as Biden has been in politics, I think his record is incredible. Oh, and he did admit that the Iraq vote was a mistake.

[Steely_Dan]

209. Let's not forget either...

that it was a staff member of the Dukakis campaign that leaked it to the press in an attempt to get Biden out of the race. He was essentially swiftboated by a member of his own party. Dukakis later apologized to Biden and fired the campaign worker that leaked the info.

-P

[medicswife]

210. so true, so true

Nothing like good, clean politics

[thesquanderer]

224. it's not one thing, it's a combination... but mostly, the votes

I'm not disputing that he credited Kinnock at other times, but that particular instance (as unfairly used as it might have been) doesn't seem to be merely a dropped sentence, his presentation clearly seems to make the thought his own. Which is why the explanation didn't work for me, and as I said, bad explanations bother me more than gaffes. But again, I think this is minor. Similarly, I don't doubt that he's been strong on civil rights, even though he has said some things that some might find offensive. And you're right, every candidate has some things that don't sit right with me. But the original poster asked for our "best shot" against Biden, and these were among the things that don't sit right with me about him. I'll tell you what's wrong with the other candidates too, if you want. ;-) But again, as I said, my biggest issue is the votes. I'm glad to hear he said the the Iraq vote was a mistake. Not as good as voting right in the first place, but better than refusing to admit fault. But then what about the patriot act? That's three major bad votes. If they were *all* mistakes, that's asking for a lot of forgiveness. If he thinks they weren't mistakes, I'd be curious to hear his defense of those votes.

[jillan]

216. Biden voted NO on Gonzales

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00003

Where is this lie coming from? You are not the first person who said this.

And about Kinnock. It was a smear campaign from Dukakis' people.
John Sasso worked for Dukakis, he was the one that started it. Sasso later got fired, and publicly apologized to Biden. Biden was the frontrunner in '88. You know how those things work - think about Hillary v Obama. The sad part of all of it is who won that election in '88? George Bush, Sr. Maybe if the Dukakis people left Biden alone, history would have been different.

[thesquanderer]

220. the Gonzales quote

> Where is this lie coming from? You are not the first person who said this.

What lie? I never said he voted for Gonzales. But here's a link supporting what I did say:


http://salon.glenrose.net/default.asp?view=plink&id=4304

[Think82]

223. He was also first to call for his resignation

[PatSeg]

255. You know, with as dirty and nasty as politics get,

it is a miracle that any decent people stay in the game. That is why so many politicians are sharks. They are often the only ones who can stomach all the crap. Fortunately there are a few really honest, sincere people who go into public service and stick it out, in spite of the constant character assassinations. Joe Biden is an intelligent, capable person. He could have left the senate a long time ago for greener pastures, more money, and less grief. He certainly didn't stay to get wealthy.

[1corona4u]

226. 1. Read post #186

2. It's a verifiable FACT, that Biden had preciously given credit to Kinnock, so if you don't believe it, fine, but don't dare say it's not a fact. Because it is, and you can't just rewrite history when you see fit. He used that speech more than once. Do some research, and try to find credible sources. The link that you provided further down this site, is not what I would call credible either.

3. Everyone voted for the patriot act, given that it was right after 9-11;


The Act was passed 45 days after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City. It substantially expanded the authority of U.S. law enforcement agencies for the stated purpose of fighting terrorism in the United States and abroad. Among its provisions, the Act increased the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone and e-mail communications and medical, financial and other records; eased restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expanded the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and enhanced the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include "domestic terrorism," thus enlarging the number of activities to which the Patriot Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.

And the votes;

Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Yea
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corzine (D-NJ), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Yea
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Not Voting
Leahy (D-VT), Yea
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Yea


And the reauthorization;

YEAs 89
NAYs 10
Not Voting 1
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State


Alphabetical by Senator Name Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Yea
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Not Voting
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Pryor (D-AR), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Yea
Talent (R-MO), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay




And, he did in fact vote NO, on extending the wiretapping;


Voted NO on extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.
Vote to invoke cloture on a conference report that extends the authority of the FBI to conduct "roving wiretaps" and access business records. Voting YES would recommend, in effect, that the PATRIOT Act be extended through December 31, 2009, and would makes the provisions of the PATRIOT Act permanent. Voting NO would extend debate further, which would have the effect of NOT extending the PATRIOT Act's wiretap provision.



All of your "other" issues have been addressed, more than once, and even Obama defended him at the last debate. The people actually involved in the Indian comment have defended him as well.

I think you are so full of it. First, you say; "a bunch of things bother me about Biden", then you talk about 5 things, that have nothing whatsoever to do with his ability for the job, or his votes, and then, finally, you close with saying; "But mostly, it's the big votes I don't agree with".

You mentioned 2 votes. I hardly think your rant is about the way HE voted at all.

Don't bother to reply, Because you'll be wasting your time.

Welcome to my list.

[PassingFair]

229. Feingold (D-WI), Nay

Everyone?

[1corona4u]

231. Knit picker.

you know what I meant. He was the only hold out. 98-1. One not voting.

[PassingFair]

234. Hey! I love my Russ!

[1corona4u]

235. He's a smart guy!!

[thesquanderer]

264. 1corona4u may not read this, but, for anyone else...

>>> It's a verifiable FACT, that Biden had preciously given credit to Kinnock, so if you don't believe it, fine, but don't dare say it's not a fact. Because it is, and you can't just rewrite history when you see fit. He used that speech more than once. Do some research, and try to find credible sources. <<<

I never said I didn't believe he had never given credit to Kinnock. I did doubt that he had given the identical speech before and had merely skipped the attribution sentence that day... the whole thought would have had to have been re-worded. But if you have a link showing where he said the same thing and added a sentence that attributed the thought to Kinnock, I'd love to see it! I did a quick search and couldn't find it. Though as I said, this is not my main concern.


>>> The link that you provided further down this site, is not what I would call credible either. <<<

That link was provided only because of the video clip, nothing else, for someone who asked for a source. Unless you're saying you think the video clip was doctored?



>>> 3. Everyone voted for the patriot act, given that it was right after 9-11; <<<

Feingold voted against it. As did 65 members of the House (including Kucinich, btw).

Then there was the patriot act reaithorization bill of 2006. By then, more lawmakers had come around. Instead of just one Senator voting against it, ten senators voted against it. Biden was not among them. And this time 138 House members voted against it, too.

You can see the list here: http://educate-yourself.org/cn/patriotact20012006senatevote.shtml

Maybe you believe the PATRIOT Act was good legislation. FIne. Then there's no reason for you to criticize Biden over it. But for those of us who thought it was a Bad Idea, it is a strike against him. Or two.


>>> The people actually involved in the Indian comment have defended him as well. <<<

All I can say is, when I watched the video of that comment, it made me squirm a little. Awful? No. But something a presidential candidate should be saying? Perhaps not the best judgment. And again, it is the explanation that makes it worse. To me, a decent explanation would have been, "It was a joke, perhaps not the most politically correct, but really was just an attempt at a light-hearted way of saying that the Indian population in my state is growing and thriving, that's all, and I apologize if anyone took offense." But instead, here's the quote of his explanation I found:

---
"I was making the point that up until now in my state, we've had a strong Indian community made up of leading scientists and researchers and engineers," Biden said. Lately, he said: "We're having middle-class people move to Delaware, take over Dunkin' Donuts, take over businesses, just like other immigrant groups have, and I was saying that ... they're growing, it's moving."
---

a writer on talkingpointsmemo.com characterized it this way:

"The only thing more ridiculous than the 7-Eleven was his subsequent explanation in which he claimed that he was celebrating the fact that Indian-Americans were no longer ghettoized into high-paid, high-education jobs in engineering, computer science and medicine but were expanding into convenience store entrepreneurship. Sort of breaking through the glass floor, you might say."

Again, not the worst thing in the world, but not great.


>>> I think you are so full of it. First, you say; "a bunch of things bother me about Biden", then you talk about 5 things, that have nothing whatsoever to do with his ability for the job, or his votes, and then, finally, you close with saying; "But mostly, it's the big votes I don't agree with". <<<

The original poster asked for "best shot" -- all the reasons someone didn't think Biden was great. Not all the reasons are equally important, but these were all things that bugged me to one extent or another. And yes, it IS mostly the votes.

>>> You mentioned 2 votes. I hardly think your rant is about the way HE voted at all. <<<

Three: bankruptcy bill, patriot I, and patriot II. Not minor votes, these.

(And I do not think I ranted at all. Nor did I ever say I thought someone was "full of it." Civil discourse, please!)

[thesquanderer]

266. whoops

Make that four votes. I left out the Iraq war authorization.

[Froward69]

274. let me Help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOXzyTGsC1c&e
http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Joe_Biden.htm
http://campaignsandelections.com/sc/releases/index.cfm?ID=6802
take a minute to dispel your misnomers

[no name no slogan]

207. Joe Biden has never seen a UFO

No UFO, no vote.

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

240. If I have to choose a DC insider w/ experience, it'll be Biden.

... at least, while I'm still a Democrat.

That may change depending upon the outcome of the Fab-Feb primaries, from which I may register back as an Independent. I hope Biden can hang in there until March Madness.

[Girlieman]

241. Bankruptcy bill

Push come to shove, he'll go with the corporations.

There are only two candidates that represent any real hope for change, and Biden is not one of them.

[1corona4u]

243. Not...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x76642

[Don1]

242. My biggest problem with Biden

is that his Iraq plan makes sense. Separating Iraq would probably solve a lot of turmoil...

but it does not address the issue that the occupation itself as well as the imperial ownership of Iraqi resources is immoral.

He has reached so far "across the aisle" that he forgot what is right and what is wrong.

(I do think he is very polite, practical, and has a good personality, though).

[doc03]

244. He has hair plugs, I remember him from I think

it was the Iran Contra hearings it was obvious he was getting hair plugs they looked like rows of corn. Just kidding, I like him too and would vote for him if he gets the nomination.

[youthere]

256. I think that was after his surgeries..

he was operated on for brain aneurysms twice.

[doc03]

290. Wow! Didn't know that.

[youthere]

295. That wasa couple years after his first wife and baby daughter were killed in an accident.

They died in a car accident right after he was elected to the senate. His two sons were in the accident too, and were injured badly. In fact they held the swearing in ceremony in the hospital at their bedsides. Then a couple years later, anuerysm..and then another. He had a hellatious couple first couple of years.

[medicswife]

297. And it was a drunk driver that killed them

So, he's been a single parent to small children before as well. That's why he started commuting to D.C. So that he could be at home with his kids in the evenings.

[jillan]

259. This isn't just politics to Biden - his son is going over there next month.

He wants to work with the Iraqi gov't to get Federalism put in place and then get the hell outta there.

[medicswife]

298. That's right.

Only Biden and McCain have children who are serving in the military now. Duncan Hunter's son is an Iraq vet, but Hunter pulled out of the race, and I'd never vote for him anyways. In all honesty, if a Republican wins, I want it to be McCain because he won't torture, and at least he'll have a clue how to be Commander in Chief as opposed to Bush who hasn't got a clue.

[LordJFT]

309. His plan doesn't make sense

It has very little support among Iraqis. I know it may seem like a crazy idea, but I actually believe its important what Iraqis think about the solution for their own country. Iraq has historically been one country not three countries or one country with 3 very much autonomous regions. It's arrogant for us to just come in there and slice it up the way we want to without any thought to the Iraqi people's opinions or history.

[medicswife]

314. His plan has a lot of support

among Iraqis. And the fact that they have started to separate themselves based on ethnicity to try to quell sectarian violence is extremely telling in my view.

[thesquanderer]

318. not really

> Iraq has historically been one country

Depends how far back you want to go. The current "one country" of Iraq is actually a pretty modern invention, 1926.

[TygrBright]

260. I like much about Biden. But unfortunately, he's a wholly-owned subsidiary of...

...two massive corporate interests. One is Dupont, since they own a large chunk of the state of Delaware. The other is the banking industry, for similar reasons (because DE is a cheap and easy state to incorporate and do business in, an unbelievably large number of corporations, especially financial services corporations, have corporate HQs there.)

They let him run free 95% of the time and when he runs free, he's great. But I can't forget that leash. The other five percent of the time, they're yanking on it and Biden is carrying their water on a few key votes. It makes it hard for me to trust him.

regretfully,
Bright

[1corona4u]

265. Dupont? LOL...

There's a new one...LOL...I'll have to get back to you on that....but as much digging as I have done on Joe, I think you are mistaken...as you are about the banking industry...

JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR.: CAREER PROFILE (SINCE 1989)

Top Industries
The top industries supporting Joseph R. Biden Jr. are:
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $6,265,871
2 Real Estate $1,172,230
3 Retired $853,148
4 Securities & Investment $839,775
5 Misc Finance $499,470
6 Misc Business $462,641
7 Business Services $455,925
8 Health Professionals $382,275
9 TV/Movies/Music $364,666
10 Lobbyists $333,185
11 Finance/Credit Companies $294,650
12 Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $294,249
13 Pro-Israel $272,700
14 Commercial Banks $269,050
15 Education $249,725
16 Insurance $223,975
17 Retail Sales $186,400
18 General Contractors $175,550
19 Accountants $136,935
20 Democratic/Liberal $129,490

So, that's about a $563,000 bucks in 18 years. Or $31,000 a year in contributions. I doubt he did it for the banks, at all.




Well, that took me all of 32 seconds to get the answer...Charles Holliday, the chairman and CEO of Dupont, is a republican. He has contributed exactly $1,000 to Joe Biden. And has a LONG list of contributions to republicans, but he donated to Joe back in 2005;

HOLLIDAY, CHARLES O JR
ROCKLAND, DE 19732
DUPONT COMPANY BIDEN, JOSEPH R JR (D)
Senate - DE
CITIZENS FOR BIDEN $1,000
primary 06/20/05



Sorry, Better luck next time................


http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Charles_Holliday.php


PS. Here are his totals for donations;

Charles Holliday (bio)
DuPont chairman, ceo $32,350 Republican
$5,400 Democrat
$2,250 special interest
total: $40,000

[PatSeg]

269. Leash???

I can't imagine Biden ever being on a leash. He refuses to own any stocks as it would be a conflict of interests. That is pretty rare for a politician.

[TygrBright]

282. See downthread, post #281. Campaign contributions aren't my concern.

They're not always the best indicators of what will influence a Senator's vote. And certainly not with a guy like Biden, who is actually a quality human being and not in the game to make himself rich, so far as I can discern.

responsively,
Bright

[medicswife]

299. He keeps his promises,

doesn't he? I was very impressed by the fact that he has kept that campaign promise from so many years ago. Most people would have found a way to weasel out of it, but not Biden. I'd trust him with my first born.

[PatSeg]

304. Trust?

I've never felt this kind of trust for a politician before. It is very rare and I am amazed at how I feel.

[murbley40]

270. Where are you from?

Dupont? Dupont is no longer a factor in Delaware. They have not been for several years now.

[TygrBright]

281. We moved to NM from Chestertown, MD, a couple of years ago.

Dupont family interests, most of them NOT named "Dupont" but full of Dupont relatives on boards of directors, etc., still owned large chunks of Delaware when we moved. Bravo if they've all been leaving those boards and divesting themselves of such interests since then.

FWIW, I have NEVER asserted or assumed that campaign contributions from any interest are the controlling factor in Biden's decisions to support key corporate interests. Not at all. Campaign contributions are a crude, imprecise tool at best. Rather, the quids-pro-quo that do NOT involve direct campaign contributions, and are therefore much subtler, are at the heart of much legislative decision-making in DE. Things like "how many jobs will we leave in Kent County, or move out of Kent County" and "what kinds of taxes and in-lieu payments will state and local governments get from our company and its various subsidiaries and associated interests" and "what kinds of investment from developers who will support and undertake infrastructure projects" and even "what OTHER Senators' votes can we influence to get you the key legislative victories you want if you play ball with us on this bill?"

Those are the levers I don't trust Biden (or, to be honest, ANY of the candidates!) to be immune to. Because on occasion, they wear the white hats of benefit to constituents who SHOULD get some benefits, even if it's only the retention of local jobs. But when the retention of local jobs comes at the expense of easing restrictions on how certain types of corporate tax deductions are disallowed, or how certain types of environmental standards are applied, or the definition of what qualifies an area for Superfund clean-up status, etc., it may be worth it in the short-term, local reckoning, but have long-term, wider damage that eventually cancels out that good. NONE of the candidates is simon-pure when it comes to such trade-offs. But I'm particularly wary of banking/financial trade-offs and trade-offs with interests who benefit from the profitability of corporations controlled by those who make their money off Dupont and other major environmental criminals.

Mind you, I could write volumes about the sins of other candidates in the same respect, but the OP asked about Biden, so that's what I answered. I LIKE the guy and would be happy to vote for him. But that's no reason not to keep an eye on those vulnerabilities, hold his feet to the fire about them and how he plans to overcome them in the future, etc. Same for every other candidate.

adamantly,
Bright

[elizm]

267. Bankruptcy bill and credit card companies. nt

[1corona4u]

268. Yeah, thanks...

that's only been mentioned 4000 times, and disputed 4000 times, in this thread...

[thesquanderer]

271. bankruptcy bill

Obviously, some people here criticize the vote and some support it. Like most things in politics, there is no clearly, universal right or wrong answer. People are allowed to support or oppose anything they want. I'm not going to tell people they're wrong for supporting it, I don't expect people to tell me I'm wrong for opposing it. All I can do is give the reason I believe what I do and let you take from it what you will.

My take on the bankruptcy bill is, yes, there is a good case to be made that bankruptcy laws could be reformed and improved. Yes, the bill should curb some abuses. BUT the bill *also* makes things much tougher on people who have good, legitimate reasons to make use of the protections.

By analogy, my take on the death penalty is, better to let 100 horrible people live than kill one innocent person.

SImilarly, I'd rather have bankruptcy laws that are a little too lenient than to have them too strict... I'd rather let some people take unfair advantage than deny sufficient help to people who really do need it.

So, while neither the old nor new bankruptcy laws were perfect, if those were my only choices, I'd have stuck with the old one. Therefore, in terms of being in sync with my own values and priorities, Biden's vote on the bankruptcy bill was wrong.

You're free to think otherwise, of course, but I think it's wrong to say that everyone who criticizes the vote is wrong or doesn't understand it.

[1corona4u]

278. Well, the old bill left mothers out in the cold...

when the deadbeat dad filed a BK. As I said before, now, the mothers and kids come first. And, by the way, BK's are on the rise. They didn't go down. If it made it harder for people to file, the numbers aren't reflecting that...and I might also point out to you, that BK's cost each one of us $400.00 a year, in increased cost.

If I'm going to give away $400.00 a year, I'd like to pick the recipient.

I think single mothers with children are important. My best friend is one, who hasn't seen any child support for 4 years, and now the shitsack filed a BK.

Too bad he didn't know about the new BK bill before he did that.

[thesquanderer]

284. pros and cons

No good bill is 100% good and no bad bill is 100% bad.

In another way, the bankruptcy bill can also be seen as less family-friendly, because before, child support responsibilities survived bankruptcy. Now that more debts survive bankruptcy, if someone must pay more of the old debts, then there is less available for the child support obligation.

Some relevant links...

http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_financial_services/002145.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

http://jinchi.blogspot.com/2007/03/joe-biden-on-bankruptcy-bill-it-was-all.html

[1corona4u]

285. That's just not true about the chld support surviving the old bill...

it does now. With the old bill, the child support was paid AFTER all of the other creditors were paid. Now, they are the first to be paid.

Read Joe's own statement on it;

When a deadbeat dad files for bankruptcy under the current system, what happens to mom and the kids?

Well, if the dad is actually making the payments, those payments stop. That's right, the payments stop cold. Mom then has to find a lawyer or a government advocate, take time off of work, and go to bankruptcy court to try to get those payments started again. And when she goes to court, her claim may not be heard that day, so she'll have to return again and again... or if she's late, she'll miss her day in court.

What else happens under current law? When dad's bill collectors show up in bankruptcy court, mom has to fight with them over dad's assets. There's a good chance that mom not only needs her payments started again, but she is due past support--support payments dad never made last month, last year. She needs him to pay her back for all the payments he failed to make.

And in asserting her claim, she is not the “Number 1" collector in line. Under current law, she is Number 7. That's right – Not So Lucky Number 7. The current Code permits other bill collectors to beat her in the race to get at dad's assets. The current law handicaps her at the starting line. She is forced to wage a fight to make sure she and the kids receive their due.

And what happens after she fights it out with the bill collectors? Well, under the current system, she might be lucky and get every dollar due. But, she may only get a portion of what is due or she may not get one red cent.

That's not right. If a bankrupt household is a sinking ship, then women and children should be protected first. This is what the current law fails to do, but it is what this bill does: it puts women and children first.

S. 256 dictates that even if he files for bankruptcy, dad must continue making those support payments that mom needs to feed and clothe her children. Under this bill, women and children will continue to receive their support payments during bankruptcy, while everybody else, from the credit card bank to the department store, waits for the bankruptcy judge's final order and plan.

That alone would be a major improvement over current law. But that is just the beginning of the advances of this bill over current law.

This bill makes mom “Number 1" and places her ahead of all the bill collectors on her past-due claim. No other bill collector--not the credit card company, not the car loan company, not the student lenders--can jump ahead of a mother and her children. Every other bill collector must stand in line behind the family.

You can read his entire statement here;
http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=234426



Now, I think Joe knows/knew the law when he gave this debate.

[thesquanderer]

302. good point

From what I can gather, it seems that that child support shortcoming i referred to was something that was in the bill that was actually fixed before the bill was ultimately passed. Though as the other links I gave pointed out, there is still plenty for some to not like in the bill, even if there is also some good in it. Like I said, no bill is 100% good or bad.

[Czolgosz]

273. Do you think maybe it gets mentioned quite often because the "defense" of his votes is unpersuasive?

[1corona4u]

276. No.

I think it's because people have bricks for brains.:-) Facts mean nothing to some people. They're like garlic to a vampire.

[elizm]

283. Bricks for brains. Lovely. Biden is lucky to have such a mental giant as you as a supporter.

:crazy:

[1corona4u]

286. I could have said shit for brains...

would you have preferred that?

and, yes, Biden is lucky to have supporters like me, who are open minded enough to make our OWN decisions, based on the factual evidence.
Have a Happy Holiday!

[elizm]

287. Goodbye. nt

[Czolgosz]

272. Here are three reasons why I don't support Biden: Judge Sykes, Judge Cook, and Judge Smith

I read this a few weeks ago here on DU:

Biden voted to confirm Bush appointee and notorious anti-choice activist Judge Diane Sykes to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals when Edwards and Hillary (and 25 other Democrats) had the sense to vote against this confirmation.

Biden voted to confirm Bush appointee and notorious anti-consumer, anti-labor activist Judge Deborah Cook to the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals when Edwards, Hillary and Dodd (and 22 other Democrats) had the sense to vote against this confirmation.

Biden voted to confirm Bush appointee and notorious anti-environment activist Judge Brooks Smith to the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeal when Hillary and Dodd (and 33 other Senators) had the sense to vote against this confirmation.

[1corona4u]

277. Well, that really

shows you're an independent thinker.:sarcasm:

[Czolgosz]

279. What do you mean? People who expect Democrats to stand up against crappy judicial nominees aren't

independent thinkers?

I don't get it.

[1corona4u]

280. I said you weren't the inependent thinker....

not everyone else..

[Czolgosz]

312. Why would you say that?

[Guaranteed]

275. Because he was as bad as Sen. Clinton for a number of years there

when it came to standing up against the Bush Administration. He voted for the IWR and expressed support for the war for a long while.

[1corona4u]

288. 288 post, and here's the vote, so far....

Nay's 28


aquart
redqueen
coalition_unwilling
Evergreen Emerald
melody
joeybee12
walk softly
robbedvoter
maddiejoan
GreenPartyVoter
FreeStateDemocrat
LWolf
redstateblues
horseface
harmonicon
missTheBigDog
MNDemNY
Stop Cornyn
Tejanocrat
eallen
truebrit71
thesquanderer
Girlieman
Don1
TygrBright
elizm
Czolgosz
BullGooseLoony

(if you said something snarky, without any other support, you are in this list)



Yea's 35


1corona4u
Bellator
Think82
hnmnf
The Village Idiot
dugggy
gateley
skipos
Caseman
youthere
napi21
elleng
msongs
Mike03
murbley40
Frustratedlady
faithfulcitizen
pirhana
ZombieHorde
NI4NI
tsegat01
Kurt_and_Hunter
medicswife
paulk
SaveElmer
Zueda
WillTheGoober
charles t
Steely_Dan
speedoo
rucky
alyce douglas
Froward69
Dread Pirate KR Read
doc03
(if you were neutral, or a supporter, you are in this list)



Same 4 issues. voted for the BK bill, along with 75 other senators, allege credit card company connection, IWR, and voted for the patirot act, which had been in existance since 1995.(but voted against extending wiretapping) (Oh, 6, if you include foot in mouth, and bad hair plugs, but those are only opinons, not real issues.)I'm also not including the judge issue. Because it's a non issue.

I think I'll keep him., :-)

I think we have totally beat the shit out of this dead horse though.....right? No one's even reading the thread anyway...just repeating the same 4 things...

[Czolgosz]

313. Why do you say "I'm also not including the judge issue. Because it's a non issue"?

[1corona4u]

315. Because it's a matter of opinion, not fact.

You don't like the judges. It doesn't mean everyone doesn't.

[Czolgosz]

316. Actually, there is a reason MOST Democrats (other than Biden) voted AGAINST these Bush appointees

[Tejanocrat]

300. 300 hundred posts on "why not Biden" is a LOT of posts about a guy polling at 3%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html

[Jennifer C]

307. And a LOT of the 300 posts in this thread are in support of Biden.

The most recent Dec 20th ARG poll has him polling at 8% in Iowa.

http://americanresearchgroup.com

[Tejanocrat]

320. I agree that there are both more posts FOR Biden and more AGAINST than I'd expect. Dodd has as much

experience (but I don't think this is an "inside the Beltway" election) and Richardson has as much foreign affairs expertise (but I think this election will be about domestic issues) so I'd think that Biden was splitting up two small constituencies with Dodd and Biden.

Biden gets more attention -- both positive and negative -- than I'd expect.

[killbotfactory]

301. Bankruptcy bill, RAVE act, IWR

He wasn't gung-ho about the war but still ended up supporting it.

[PatSeg]

310. Bork, Bosnia, VAWA, Iraq resolution.

[PatSeg]

317. Also because Bill O'Reilly called him "Pinhead" for

calling Bush a LIAR! Great endorsement.

[1corona4u]

311. RAVE....

which protects children....you forgot to mention that.

[SergeyDovlatov]

319. Because he voted for the war, war funding and patriot act?