People on DU are acting like frightened chicken...

[Vernunft II]

It´s appalling to witness really. I thought I had found a haven of intelligence and have to witness people hack at each other day by day.

Can we stay with the issues ?! PLEASE ?!

Or do you really want 4 more years in the Bush ? Then by all means, go on. Otherwise start behaving like adults.

[molly]

1. That's a very tall order

[Vernunft II]

6. I´m aware of that... Though it´s sad staying with issues

is considered "a tall order", don´t you think ?

[Iverson]

2. good luck

Brace yourself.

[Vernunft II]

7. I´m braced, don´t worry. Someone had to say it though.

[JVS]

3. Could you please rephrase this as a clear attack on at least one group?

Otherwise, I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere.

[Vernunft II]

9. It´s hard to target it any clearer really

between the Nader hate and the general "Repug" hate.

People seem to forget that the Democrat Party needs to win these votes over, not alienate people even further. I most certainly don´t mind discussion but the sometimes very low level scares me...

[JVS]

15. I think many people here are having fundamental problems with...

a few concepts.

One of the biggest seems to be the role of the party. I do not believe that our party is a feudal lord to which we owe fealty. That seems to be the dominant concept of what being involved in a political party is here. I don't believe that the voters are accountable to the party, but rather the party is accountable to the voters. There is a reason that the ballot is secret. It is so that the voter's actions cannot be scrutinized, after all s/he is sovereign. I am very disappointed in the attitudes that I am witnessing here.

[Vernunft II]

17. I agree

Though my initial posting was about the tone that´s used often when attacking the political opponent one seeks to convince of one´s own points.

[JVS]

20. I can understand the tone

It seems we are in an era of great pants-shitting.

You live up to your name.

[Vernunft II]

23. If we want change we must get over this tone

otherwise there will be no change. None in our direction anyways.

An example: I´m reading other sites (of different political organisations) as well and everywhere the discontent about Bush is growing. Even at that despised "freeper place". These people (not all, but some. Enough to make a difference) could be brought in on strictly economic issues.

People here need to realize that just because someone has voted republican in the past he´s still neither stupid not the anti christ, that person simply sees things from a different angle. DISCUSSION might change that, INSULTS won´t. Know what I mean ?

[JVS]

25. yep

[Vernunft II]

27. It is sad that not more people here can see that and act accordingly.

[SonofMass]

36. It's the Democratic Party

.

[Vernunft II]

38. You´re not accusing me of an attack on the Dem party, are you ?

[ixion]

4. here,here!

I was really floored yesterday by what I was hearing from the anti-Nader group yesterday.

It made me very sad to see people who've opinions I've respected start talking about ways to sabotage Nader's campaign.

Really, lowering ourselves to the level of the neocons is not the way to accomplish anything, IMHO.

[Vernunft II]

12. Calling them "traitors" will most certainly NOT bring them back, will it ?

Dems shouldn´t yell against Nader, they should research why people can´t find a political home within the Dem party and then change it.

Not that the Nader discussion is more than the latest symptom.

[ixion]

24. indeed...

I agree that the 'Nader sydrome' is only a symptom. And I had that same thought. The Dems have been calling for greens, independents and conservatives to join the fight to get the Bush cabal out of the WH, and I don't see how calling them traitors is going to help.

[Vernunft II]

29. It won´t... On the contrary...

All these potential votes against Bush will stay home and will mumble "F*** politics" in their beer and nothing will ever change.

Do we really want that ? I certainly don´t.

[ixion]

30. absolutely. I agree.

n/t

[Gman]

34. The people that "can't find a home within the Dem party"

are many of the same ones that have been here at DU since I first found DU in '01. They had fundamental differences with the party then and are discontented that the party hasn't moved toward them now.

Political parties cover a range of a spectrum of political views with a definitive beginning and end to their section of the spectrum. The Democratic party span begins somewhere to the right of the extreme left to slightly to the right of center. The Democratic party has never included the extreme left. That range has been covered by the Socialist Party, Labor Party, Green Party and others. There is some overlap in views of these parties and the Dem party, but ther are also significant differences between on many other issues.

In Europe there are many parties. However, as happened in France when an extreme conservative ended up in a runoff with Chirac, everyone else coalesced to vote against the conservative and give Chirac another term even though it meant many had to hold their noses when they voted for Chirac. All agreed that defeating the conservative took a back seat to forwarding their own personal views and party agendas. This was a very tough decision for many but the mutual threat to all thaat the conservative posed trumped everyone else's issues.

The same threat of conservatism exists here in the US today and its immperative that everyone, regardless of their feelings about the Dem nominee, vote for that nominee because the threat to not only the country but the entire world this year from the neocons trumps anything else. We must get rid of the cancer of neocons in the White House and elsewhere in DC.

[Vernunft II]

35. I´m aware of that and I agree with you but

don´t you agree that a more civilized form of discussion would be helpful in reaching such a "great coalition" ? As I wrote in another reply in this thread, there are many republican voters, honest decent folk who want the best for this country and who realize they voted wrong last time. Calling them "Repugs", "Repukes" and worse will not bring them over to defeat Bush.
All this name calling is negative for the Dem party and for how people in the US view politics in general. It´s time the kindergarden closes, isn´t it ?

[PVnRT]

5. Nope, can't do that

People still have to carry on their crusades against Dean supporters, Ralph Nader, and anyone else who isn't 100% zealous about Kerry or Edwards.

[Iverson]

8. heal! heal!

Do ya believe?
I say, do ya belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve!

[Vernunft II]

10. Doesn´t it feel like a damn civil war ?

And then they complain that people don´t vote Dem. I´m hard pressed to vote for whoever will emerge from this chaos already.

[PVnRT]

11. Yes, it does

Plenty of people who I once had respect for here I am actively hoping get banned. I will vote Democratic this November, but it very well may be the last time.

[Vernunft II]

13. People don´t realize that their zeal will drive more potential votes

AWAY than they could ever hope to convince by yelling.

[ixion]

28. I have to say

that all this talk of sabotagin Naders campaign has certainly put a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm planning to hold my nose and vote for Kerry, because I simply can't abide the Bush cabal remaining in office, but I'll tell ya, if it were a normal election year, I wouldn't be voting dem.

[Vernunft II]

31. Right now, with all the mud slinging it´s hard

to find someone you really WANT to support or who really gives you the feeling he´d represent you the way you want to be represented. It´s the lesser of two evils right now.

But if people would just stick to issues instead of opting out altogether that is not necessarily the case for every future election. With less slandering and more issues a new political culture would emerge and from that better candidates.

[JVS]

32. When is it ever a normal election year?

I'm not saying you should bolt, but really think about how often we are told it's do or die. I laugh whenever I think that we could be seeing the end of Bob Dole's presidency this year.

[buddhamama]

14. you mean, the sky isn't falling?

n/t

[Vernunft II]

18. Not yet anyways :-)

[edzontar]

16. The hysteria and temper tantrums are pathetic, indeed.

I think a strong case could be made against Nader, and NEEDS to be made, but it will work much better if it is done sensibly and thoughtfully.

Ranting about traitors, purges, grave-pissing and and proposing things like election tampering or worse can only do us harm and help re-elect the very monster we all want to see defeated.

[Vernunft II]

19. My point EXACTLY

[NC_Nurse]

22. Indeed

Just the facts, Ma'am.

I get turned off by all the mudslinging.

And calling people "stoopid" just reminds me of elementary school.

I'm not voting for Nader again, I have repented...but I don't think all of the harpies are winning us any votes!

In fact, it makes his claim that the Dems and Repugs are just alike seem credible. Let's not stoop to their level.

The truth wins people over...no need to yell!

[Vernunft II]

33. Aye, I´m often reminded of elementary school as well

but a louder voice or faster typing doesn´t make your arguments any better.

[Cannikin]

21. Be careful....

the first warning I ever got was for trying to calm everyone down and pull them together by stopping an argument...nobody's getting them for this one.

[Vernunft II]

26. I honestly don´t care about getting warned.

If I´m to be thrown outa this place for preaching unity then by Hell, throw me out. If telling the truth and advocating less zeal and more thought is wrong then we already passed the point of no return.

[MoonAndSun]

37. kick

for a great post!!

[Vernunft II]

39. Thanks MoonAndSun :-)

[Vernunft II]

40. It´s amazing how quick the voice of reason falls behind 6 pages

of "Nader" and other stuff that should be in one topic alone. If the status of this board really resembles the Dem party then Bush is right, you know ? This kindergarden IS unfit to rule a country when we can´t even keep a forum straight...

I´m very disappointed.

[kher-heb]

41. I blame the Clark supporters

they seem to be either ignorant of politics or very smart of politics.
Either way, they are causing a lot of damage with the authoritarian attitude demanding forced unity.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. I blame the Kucinich supporters

They seem either extremely self-righteous, or downright delusional and very judgemental.

Actually, I like and respect most Kucinich supporters on this board, as I do their candidate, but you seem to very much fit both your own and my description.

[Vernunft II]

44. I wish you both would stop seeking blame elsewhere

I´ve seen self-righteous, delusional and very judgemental postings from all over the spectrum and I´m asking you and everyone else to stop and think before you´re posting.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. If you had actually bothered to read

my post, you would have noticed that I said I didn't really feel that way about Kucinich supporters, and was merely objecting to this particular poster's sweeping generalization by sarcastically making one of my own.

To restate what I said in my previous post, I don't actually think that way about Kucinich supporters. I'm also not certain that the above poster actually is one.

[Vernunft II]

51. It´s still adolescent finger pointing, isn´t it ?

And it needs to stop. Please.

:-)

[Crunchy Frog]

53. No it doesn't

Since they ended the rules this forum is essentially an unmoderated free for all, so if someone punches me, I'm going to punch them right back.:)

You might want to apply for a moderator's position though, I would take it up with the admins. If you are going to self appoint yourself unofficial moderator for this forum, you're going to find yourself extremely busy for the next couple of weeks. :evilgrin:

[Vernunft II]

54. I believe that among mature adults there should be no need for moderation.

We should all have it within ourselves.

[Crunchy Frog]

55. Thank heavens I'm

not a mature adult then.:evilgrin:

[Vernunft II]

45. Forced Unity ?

I´m talking about the way things are discussed here. I´m tired of the insults and the cheap shots at others.

[AnnitaR]

46. I blame you!

There is no point in posting crap like this!

I would never say all Dennis supporter were "ignorant of politics" because they are backing a candidate that has no chance of winning either!

Post like yours are what is "causing a lot of damage"!

Good lord I got get out of this forum! People are losing it here!

[Forkboy]

52. I blame everyone!

:crazy:

[WillyT]

42. Great Post VII !!!

Been preachin similar gospel myself!

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=358591

:hi::pals::hi:

[regnaD kciN]

47. The problem with "staying with the issues"...

...is that, for many of us, it leads us straight away from either of the two likely Democratic nominees.

It seems the only "issue" some people want to talk about is ABB. Which is a genuine concern, I'll grant, but, for me, it can't hide the fact that, when considered on the issues, both of the "big two" are as uninspiring, to put it mildly, as any candidates I've seen come out of the Democratic Party since I started following politics thirty-six years ago. If we had a Republican less revolting and dangerous than Captain Crotchsock in the White House, I'd be seriously considering giving the presidential contest a pass next November.

:-(

[Forkboy]

48. LOL...Captain Crotchsock

That's friggin awesome :D

[Vernunft II]

49. I understand your displeasure and I feel the same.

Still, I miss objectivity here.