what is all the hysteria over Nader?

[Cheswick2.0]

Without the Green Party he will be lucky to get more than .09% of the vote.
Why not spend your time convincing Kerry and Edwards to get back to some kind of Left of Center roots so that people don't stay home on election day? What will kill us in November is the same thing that killed us in 2002.... and both Kerry and Edwards are determinded to follow the DLC plan to distroy the party from the inside.

[Lexingtonian]

1. not true

It's all the covert conservativeness, the faux-revolutionary-ness, that is manifest in the Dean and Nader movements that has some of us annoyed. Return to your liberal and tolerant impulses, let go of your confused fears and obsolete dogmaticisms and ahistoricisms, and your wild misunderstandings about Kerry and Edwards will be put to rest.

Hysteria is mot certainly manifest in the vocal Dean and Nader support around here if you apply a fair and equal standard. In fact, it is the most obvious explanation of all the contrarian and irrationalist behavior around here by those folks. Don't forget that hysteria does not require an emotionally extreme aspect- it's the deliberate choice of refusing to understand the situation for what it is that defines it and is the source of the outpourings of absurd counterfactuality.

[Brian_Expat]

4. LOL

"covert conservatism" in the Dean campaign?

I suppose that's in contrast to the overt conservatism in the Kerry campaign -- anti-gay statements, vote for the Iraq War, vote for the Bush tax cuts, vote for No Child Left Behind, etc.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. Yup beat him senseless, he's wants to balance the budget

Damn those conservative ideas!

[JVS]

6. Wow. Balancing budgets, he's worse than Hitler!

;-)

[Cheswick2.0]

15. He's right.... er he's left... er, no he's right again..........

I wish people would make up their minds about what his crime actually is.

[JVS]

18. I wonder why people need to even accuse him of a crime at this point.

It doesn't look like he's going to get the nomination, so why are they still unable to promote their candidate without using Dean as a yardstick. I guess it's just deep rooted feelings of inadequacy on their part.

[edzontar]

35. Because their hatred and fear knows no bounds.

I don't like Nader, but I am very much enjoying their present panic over his entry into the race.

[bitchkitty]

7. Wild misunderstandings?

they're both Bush enablers, what's to misunderstand? They both voted for the war - they bent over for Chimpie along with the majority of the Democratic establishment. What's to misunderstand?

[Lexingtonian]

17. Critics

are legless men who teach running.

You make no case for backing either office-less and thus irresponsible critic, have no proof they could have done better, and don't admit that all these votes were backed by majorities of the constituents, including majorities of Democrats for each one.

You attitude and righteousness in your favor, and failure to account for what national and Democratic consensus was on the other. Most of these matters you hold up are ideological ones of the Left, not tests of morality in any serious way. Now, if you were some sort of moral authority you would have standing to object as you do. As it is, you have yet to prove your case to be reasonable. Emotional-Political Correctness is a pathetic basis for claiming superiority.

[bitchkitty]

32. Courage over cowardice -

it's not a tough one, regardless of whether or not one holds office.

[PVnRT]

24. The hysteria is coming from people like you

who have this knee-jerk "NADER IS EVIL" reaction as soon as he announces his candidacy.

Go on, check the threads. It's no secret.

[edzontar]

33. This is nonsense. By far the majority of Dean supporters

Especially those who post here, have stated that they will vote for the Dem nominee.

Dean said this over and over during the period where petulant Dean opponents here were proclaiming that they would NEVER vote for Dean in the GE.

I guess that made THEM Bush-supporters too.

The fact we don't much care for Kerry can be traced to the still smarting wounds of comments like these, to the "Stop dean Movement" and other DU disruptions, to the vicious and bigoted attacks on Dean's wife, and the "rumors" and some facts about dirty tricks (and the Osama ads) that still resonate in the aftermath of a bitter primary campaign.

That, and the fact that Kerry in particular embodies, as almost no other candidate does, the rotten compromises and betrayal of progressive causes by our so-called Democratci Leaders that motivated the Dean movement in the first place.

Attacks such as yours show no understanding of the situation, and do nothing to help unify our ranks for the upcoming fight.

Indeed, I would argue that those who insist on attacking Dean supporters and others who have or continue to support other canddiates (the race is not over yet, BTW) are doing more to divide and hurt us than those who would prefer a rational and thoughtful discussion of the issues--including what to do about the Nader challenge.

[Iverson]

2. The answer lies in Clinton's penis.

Well, maybe not "in" Clinton's penis, but metaphorically it's the same thing. The far right's visceral, rabid denunciation is hysteria. There is no rational basis for it. There may certainly be rational bases for disagreeing with Nader, but what you see is as you said: hysteria.

[charlie]

8. Primal bonding

Crowd the water's edge and ook-ook shriek at the aardvark across the river. Strengthens unity.

You can sit it out, it'll pass quickly enough... unless you mention that it's an aardvark and not a sabretooth across the river. Don't ever do that.

[SaddenedDem]

3. You have to wonder

If the Johns are such great candidates why are their supporters so terrified of Ralph Nader?

If the Johns could TRULY appeal to the left, center and moderates, Ralph Nader wouldn't be a threat, now would he?

Of course, if the plan was to screw the liberal base and appeal to the mushy middle, then they have a problem with Ralph Nader in the race, don't they?

The plan becomes crystal clear as you watch the visceral reaction on this message board.

[union_maid]

9. No one can totally please all those groups

It takes an informed and intelligent electorate to compromise when they have to. In a country this large, everyone has to compromise. Nader peels off votes by telling the young and idealistic that they're wrong to compromise and wrong to accept compromises that good candidates have made in their careers. He also uses the money that the RW funnels to his campaign to villify our candidate and thereby supress voter turnout.

[Cheswick2.0]

12. some compromises are too much

I am not a Nader fan, but there is a point where compromise is just to much. Kerry and Edwards have crossed that line for me.

[joyautumn]

23. great, tell the war-mongering centrists

to hold their noses and vote Kucinich then. why should we respond any better than they?

[kiahzero]

If Kucinich had won the primary

we'd be doing just that. That is the whole point of ABB.

[Lexingtonian]

10. you assume rationality

on the part of (threatened) Nader voters and I think you vastly underestimate the part played by anger about November 2000 in this lashing out. The numbers and trends don't actually give Ralph power to tip this election, but there is no reason to like what he is, has done, or is doing either.

[Cheswick2.0]

14. what is a threated Nader voter?

<scratches head and wonders>

[Lexingtonian]

19. I don't know!

But I do know what a person who threatens to vote Nader is.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. I am not a fan of Ralph because I think he was wrong about Gore

But Kerry and Edwards are a different matter. Where I saw Gore moving left, I see them moving right and I think it is insane. If they move any further right I will not be able to vote for them. I will have to take what I learned at camp Wellstone and apply it to getting real progressives elected to the congress and senate.

[edzontar]

34. If Ralph keeps making stupid statements like that, he will fail

Utterly in his effort to lure progressive votes.

Gore did the right thing by publicly opposing the war and bravely coming out in favor of Gov. Dean.

In that light, I must say that it was interesting reading all the defences of him yesterday from folks who trashed him mercilessly for that endoresement a few months ago.

Gore and Dean are true and rational voices for the Dem party and the progressive cause.

I only wish i felt as confident as my "electability" friends that Kerry has the clarity and vision to see us through to victory.

We shall see. I guess.

[Monte Carlo]

13. Ralph's forcing the Democrats to fight on two fronts.

As minute as his results will be, he will force the Democrats to expend time and energy in order to keep additional votes from going to him. It's a self-defeating gesture.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. his support is going to be almost non existant

But what is funny to me is the insanity of the people here who think Dean should "stop Nader". Kerry and Gephardt had no trouble forming a 30 day corporation to stop Dean. Can't they form another one to stop Nader?

[mmonk]

20. Diluting the Dem vote this year

can only be blamed on those that leave. This is not an arrogant statement. The bush administration and its majorities in congress have done more damage to the things Naderites say they support in the history of the republic. Anyone who follows elections knows that Nader has no chance. bush's approval from the republican side is 90% from a poll released yesterday. Their voting block will be solid with very few cracks if any. Four more years will solidify permanent tax cuts designed to eliminate government programs for the poor and disabled, pack the judiciary with idealogues of the right, ensure erosion of laws to protect the environment, more "privatization" in the form of direct payment of taxes to churches, multinational corporations, insurance companies, etc. and continued dismanteling of social security, medicaid, more possible unprovoked invasions of countries under the guise of "protecting America from terrorism", etc.. Votes for Nader are votes for this vision of America through default. In a close election, it may prove fatal in attempting to stop a more permanent republican majority in government for years beyond the next election.

[SaddenedDem]

22. So the Democrats hold no blame, huh?

Perhaps if they put up a candidate that doesn't mirror and vote with BushCo, Nader, nor anyone like him, wouldn't present the threat you see.

Perhaps the DNC/DLC needs to look at the alternatives they give us defined as candidates.

The Democratic wing of the Democratic party promised these fools a fight this year - and that's what they have on their hands. If they chose to ignore the real threats, attempted to put down the rebellion, and offer up yet another group of BushCo look alikes, they just got that strategy shot all to hell.

This is a battle for the very base of Democratic beliefs. They can choose to address the fight or continue on their merry way to oblivion.

As a liberal, I will no longer shut the hell up or sit the hell down. Evidently, Ralph Nader agrees with me.

[mmonk]

26. No one asked anyone to shut up

but I deal in realities. I'd rather slow this repub tide down because things are getting critical.

[SaddenedDem]

31. Your realities are not MY realities

Because slowing it down is not supposed to be the objective.

An opposition party is supposed to stop it in it's tracks. You know, opposition - as in not supporting the other side and presenting their objectives in a different cloth.

And THAT is exactly what my reality is.

[Atlant]

37. They've been getting critical since '68. What else is new?

> I'd rather slow this repub tide down because things are getting critical.

They've been getting critical since '68 when Nixon invented the
"Southern Strategy".

What else is new?

Every four years, it's the end of the world unless we *ALL* vote
Democratic, and the party will *SURELY* fix it's problems after that.

Yeah, right.

Atlant

[kiahzero]

27. If candidates with those qualities were desirable

They would have won the primary.

Perhaps you're forgetting, in your haste to hate Democrats, is that there were ELECTIONS. Kerry's winning them. Edwards is doing well in them.

[SaddenedDem]

30. Then another candidate vying for those votes shouldn't terrify you

Your candidates should win on their merits, regardless of who their opposition is.

Right? Of course that's right!

But then again, if you were sure of that the panic on this board about Nader's candidacy wouldn't exist.

Right? Of course that's right!

[Ganja Ninja]

21. I'm not even sure Ralph can get on the ballot in all 50 states.

Even if he does he won't get the votes he got last time. He'll be lucky if he can get 20,000 votes nationwide.

[Kahuna]

25. Beat's me.

:shrug:

[maxanne]

28. a great many of the hysterical

are confusing the support for Nader's right to run, with actual support for Nader.

I support Nader's right to run.

I am not a Nader supporter.

See - that's pretty easy, isn't it?

This Ralphmania certainly illustrates the turns the Democratic Party have taken. Democrats are so damn fearful, that they throw their support behind a tepid candidate with a record of supporting Bush.

Look at the behavior of the Dems during the 2000 election debacle. Did we rear up and bellow at the injustices? Nah, we were too afraid of acting like them. After 9/11 when they questioned our patriotism, did we rear up and tell 'em to pound sand? Not even close. We allowed them to call us traitors - and we said nothing. At every opportunity we've had to really say something - really stand for something - we've been too afraid of upsetting the nice moderate applecart we've barricaded ourselves in . We've become the party of wimps and simps - and we wonder why we don't win elections.

I don't look at the criticism of the party as a bad thing - especially if it motivates us to really push for change from within. I'm certainly doing that in my county party. If we continue to just follow along blindly - we'll continue to get what we've been getting. A Republican dictatorship.

[Armstead]

29. I think Nader is foolish to run, buit i think the Dems are foolish to...

mistake the symptom for the disease.

Nader's IDEAS should not be so far out of synch with the Democratic agenda that he and people who share his concerns feel like they have to fight a two-front battle.

Nader is not some wild eyed commie or socialist utopian. he is basically someone who is challenging the excessive power of corporations today, and their corrosive impact on democracy.

In a saner world, most of the things he says about the economy and participatory democracy would be a natural part of the Democratic Party agenda.

But the DLC centrist types have moved so far from those principles that it is branded as "radical left."

I am ABB but that shouldn't mean you have to put all of your beliefs in the closet to oppose Bush.

[moondust]

36. Persona Non Grata Syndrome in the extreme.

Many, many people have suffered and died because of Ralph Nader's unprecedented selfishness and egotism. Let the whacking proceed!!